Should Metaknight Be Banned? The Poll (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[adumbrodeus]

Now this is just bad.

I'm sorry. I accepted your point about my position being untenable. But you can't hold this one either.

You have nothing that explains why the chances of finding an MK specific AT that won't be located vs. other characters is anything more than a vanishingly small possibility.

Similarily, you're saying the chances of finding strategies that work against MK if he's banned are vanishingly small.

No amount of algebra will help you determine which vanishingly small is greater than the other without some evidence on one side of its likelihood, and you have none for either.

Because there are a number of perfectly character specific ATs in the game already. Again, try infiniting Luigi with DDD, he can't really be chaingrabed off d-throw, but somehow Jab has the exact amount of hitstun, cool, knockback, etc when combined with luigi's weight, frame, hurtbox, etc that somehow... luigi can be grabbed, in spite of the fact this doesn't work with any other character he can't simply chaingrab.

At an exact range of percents for every character that he is able to do this to, uniquely Marth can f-throw into tippered f-smash, based on the exact same criteria.

That's just a few examples of where this absolute exactness comes into play.


Add that to the fact that it's ONLY ONE OF MANY POSSIBLE ROUTES, all of which are signifigantly hurt by the ban... and the chance of finding counter-MK strategies in general isn't anywhere near as small. Depending on how broken he really is, it probably falls in the 20-30% range.


On the other hand, the chance of something being found and being accepted (especially considering that it must be a single tech that balances him, otherwise it won't fly) with him already banned become infinitessible, because only a certain class of techs (namely, one shot-dramatic techs) will fly AND they need to be found by somebody who is actually noticable enough for the community to take notice.

Algebra needs actual quantitative values (numbers anyone?) to make sense numbnuts. You can make an argument based on simple logic theory, but invoking algebra just makes you look goofy.

Not from a conceptual level. I'm applying algebra concepts, not the actual mechanics.

The concepts of algebra apply on any unknown variable, and that's why the idea that any two unknown variables must be totally independant is absurd. If the numbers have an estblished relationship, then of course they cannot be indpendant.

As time goes by, the chance that a Meta Knight counter will be found decreases. The counter doesn't necessarily exist, and as players explore the game, there is less uncovered territory to allow for its existence.

On the other hand, if such a counter exists, as time goes by under a ban, the chance that the Meta Knight counter will be found increases. Players will again explore the game, admittedly at a slower rate. But, since it exists, they will likely eventually stumble across it. Once they've discovered it, all it will take is an advanced player to recognize what they've done, and a new "Unban MK!" discussion will take place.

One scenario hinges upon the existence of the possibility, while in the other scenario, it already exists and is only waiting to be found.

Basically, the chances of a counter to MK existing (less than 100%, and falling) are lower than the chances of said technique being found if MK is banned (also less than 100%, but increasing over time).

You're missing three major issues.

1. That only holds as time approaches infinity, with a player pool that restricted suddenly we're talking about hundreds of years (for example, given enough data, it's possible to calculate).

2. That technique or techniques must be of a particular type, otherwise they will be considered independantly. That is simply human nature, with that number of tests, it will never click that a lot of small things add up to a balanced character.

3. You're forgetting about the players that will leave because of the ban (both the MK players, and the players that will consider a premature ban to be scrubbish). Since your solution will take longer BY far to recognize MK's balance, the MK players aren't gonna be back anytime soon, and when it's found they'll have forgetten about the game. The people who think it's scrubbish will never come back reguardless.

...

Now, in response to side 1: MK won't be banned in friendlies. There are chances that if MK does improve much quicker with MK banned, we won't need a specific counter, as one will rise by itself.

...

Yes, both arguments AND responses have faults. Which side is more important to you. Which response seems more credible?

But response 1 has a VERY creditable counter-response. Namely, that people who will recognize this... for them, friendlies is "playing to learn". Banning MK will regulate him to "joke games", where nobody is playing seriously, which would still be reletively rare.

LOLWe do know this game very well.

Then where is my accurate match-up chart?

 

[Iwan]

Then where is my accurate match-up chart?

Can i just show you tournament rankings since metaknights numbers are absurd and far better than any other smash character in the history of the competitive scene?

When i say we know this game VERY WELL, I mean it in the sense that the chances of us finding any game breaking advnaced tech are highly unlikely. I'm not a psychic, just a realist. Do you REALLY, truly think we'll find anything that can stop metaknights ability to gimp, make him slower, have less priority, and give him more punishable moves?

We'd have to hack the game to progress the match up VS metaknight.
lol.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Can i just show you tournament rankings since metaknights numbers are absurd and far better than any other smash character in the history of the competitive scene?

Lol... no.

Doesn't reflect effects of popularity/lack of people playing at top levels of play/etc.


An accurate match-up chart... please.

 

[salaboB]

3. You're forgetting about the players that will leave because of the ban (both the MK players, and the players that will consider a premature ban to be scrubbish). Since your solution will take longer BY far to recognize MK's balance, the MK players aren't gonna be back anytime soon, and when it's found they'll have forgetten about the game. The people who think it's scrubbish will never come back reguardless.

The people who would think that was scrubbish probably have already quit Brawl.

The MK players quitting will be offset by those who have and are already quitting because of MK. Your point neutralizes whether MK is ever unbanned or not.

But response 1 has a VERY creditable counter-response. Namely, that people who will recognize this... for them, friendlies is "playing to learn". Banning MK will regulate him to "joke games", where nobody is playing seriously, which would still be reletively rare.

This appears to only be creditable to you because you've said it. We have no proof whatsoever that the Smash community will no longer seriously try things with MK if he's banned, and you're making up numbers and pretending they're valid about it.

 

[Mmac]

An accurate match-up chart... please.

Dan's Matchup Chart is probably as accurate as it gets. Unfortunately it isn't complete

 

[Iwan]

Dan's Matchup Chart is probably as accurate as it gets. Unfortunately it isn't complete

I was going to mention this, but it doesn't really matter...I can already tell that you'd refute it as "not accurate", so why bother lol

We know matchups in this game, what's to suggest we don't? Show me an in-accurate match up chart...please...

 

[Ulevo]

Lol... no.

Doesn't reflect effects of popularity/lack of people playing at top levels of play/etc.


An accurate match-up chart... please.

I'll answer that for you. There isn't one.

Go to the Meta Knight boards, and you'll find a thread claiming Fox is the only character to go even with Meta Knight at all. Isn't that a bowl of kellogs lawl crunch cereal?

And according to him we know a lot about the game. Yeah, sure. We can't even figure out the **** match ups for the best, most popular character played in Smash. Like hell we do.

 

[WakerofWinds]

But response 1 has a VERY creditable counter-response. Namely, that people who will recognize this... for them, friendlies is "playing to learn". Banning MK will regulate him to "joke games", where nobody is playing seriously, which would still be reletively rare.

I think they'd still be playing to win, even in friendlies. So, it would help.

Both responses and sides have credible responses, it's not one sided.

 

[HeroMystic]

When i say we know this game VERY WELL, I mean it in the sense that the chances of us finding any game breaking advnaced tech are highly unlikely. I'm not a psychic, just a realist. Do you REALLY, truly think we'll find anything that can stop metaknights ability to gimp, make him slower, have less priority, and give him more punishable moves.

"The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence."

I'm pro-ban and all, but I don't think MK has no exploitable weakness whatsoever. The reason why I say we should just go ahead with the ban is because I believe that if we do find something, it'll just be limited to one character, which is certainly not good enough.

If we want to find a weakness for Metaknight, we have to think outside the box and look at this from different angles.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Show me why it's so much less likely to be located if he's banned, logically.

This goes back to how human development works.

Outside of war, most people weren't concerned with weapons development. Weapon development does continue, but the work effort is significantly lower than if people wanted to pursue it. Thus it would take more time to find such weapons.

During times of war, countries want to win the war. So they put as much man power and effort into finding solutions into tipping the war in their favor. From that war scientific break throughs are discovered more frequently as the tools that helped us build weapons were useful for other common house hold activities.

Conflict causes progression, it's true for evolution as a need to survive, it's true for wars as countries want to win wars, it's true for competitions in which people want to win, and it's the same for Smash.

If you remove the conflict against beating Metaknight then techniques against him will take much longer to be discovered, if any exist, since there is no reason to learn such.

 

[Iwan]

"The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence."

I'm pro-ban and all, but I don't think MK has no exploitable weakness whatsoever. The reason why I say we should just go ahead with the ban is because I believe that if we do find something, it'll just be limited to one character, which is certainly not good enough.

If we want to find a weakness for Metaknight, we have to think outside the box and look at this from different angles.

I don't think he has "no exploitable weaknesses whatsoever" either...I just think he has so many advantages to the point of negatively effecting high levels of play. That's all I'm arguing. When DSF would rather go metaknight dittos than pick snake, what's that saying? That the best snake in the U.S (world?) would rather use his alt character?

 

[Ulevo]

"The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence."

I'm pro-ban and all, but I don't think MK has no exploitable weakness whatsoever. The reason why I say we should just go ahead with the ban is because I believe that if we do find something, it'll just be limited to one character, which is certainly not good enough.

If we want to find a weakness for Metaknight, we have to think outside the box and look at this from different angles.

The sad part of all this is that it isn't necessary to think outside the box for extra tactics against Meta Knight. People can't even grasp the basics down properly, and they're expecting to ban Meta Knight because he's too difficult to deal with. I released a thread a little while ago regarding how to properly regain control in the air with aerials, allowing an individual to survive for much longer. Very few top players even bothered to do it in battle, let alone knew about it. And it is one of the simplest things to grasp and practice. It is as simple as Directional Influence, and most people don't even do that properly either.

How the hell do people expect to beat Meta Knight if they can't use simple basics in the match? No. You can't fudge things in a match against a character like that. That doesn't mean you can't win if you pay attention, use your basics properly, and play smart. Most people don't though, bottom line.

 

[Mortimer]

Add that to the fact that it's ONLY ONE OF MANY POSSIBLE ROUTES, all of which are signifigantly hurt by the ban... and the chance of finding counter-MK strategies in general isn't anywhere near as small. Depending on how broken he really is, it probably falls in the 20-30% range.

I don't think you can accurately quantify it.

You're missing three major issues.

1. That only holds as time approaches infinity, with a player pool that restricted suddenly we're talking about hundreds of years (for example, given enough data, it's possible to calculate).

2. That technique or techniques must be of a particular type, otherwise they will be considered independantly. That is simply human nature, with that number of tests, it will never click that a lot of small things add up to a balanced character.

3. You're forgetting about the players that will leave because of the ban (both the MK players, and the players that will consider a premature ban to be scrubbish). Since your solution will take longer BY far to recognize MK's balance, the MK players aren't gonna be back anytime soon, and when it's found they'll have forgetten about the game. The people who think it's scrubbish will never come back reguardless.

1: I'd give it a matter of months, myself. Was the "hundreds of years" just to illustrate a point, or do you think it would take that long? I don't dismiss the possibility that it could take that long, but I think it's likely that it will happen earlier.

2: Again possible, but we'll never know how likely this is unless said technique is found. I suppose, academically, this is an argument in favor of keeping MK around. But again, I think this is unlikely. It's human nature to fiddle with things, and many discoveries are completely unintentional. At this point, so many people have looked for a flaw with MK that I think any counter that's discovered will be via people exploring non-MK related avenues.

3: Players will leave whatever happens. We have no way to gauge which path will cause more players to leave, or to return. Are there any alternatives to SSBB, besides Melee? I think it's a relatively unique genre, so if it doesn't devolve into MK dittoes or some other extreme scenario, players will keep playing because they enjoy the genre.

 

[salaboB]

This goes back to how human development works.

Outside of war, most people weren't concerned with weapons development. Weapon development does continue, but the work effort is significantly lower than if people wanted to pursue it. Thus it would take more time to find such weapons.

During times of war, countries want to win the war. So they put as much man power and effort into finding solutions into tipping the war in their favor. From that war scientific break throughs are discovered more frequently as the tools that helped us build weapons were useful for other common house hold activities.

Conflict causes progression, it's true for evolution as a need to survive, it's true for wars as countries want to win wars, it's true for competitions in which people want to win, and it's the same for Smash.

If you remove the conflict against beating Metaknight then techniques against him will take much longer to be discovered, if any exist, since there is no reason to learn such.

Human development, the biggest threat gets attacked and killed.

By "human development" MK is doomed to banning.

Anyway, this is such a bizarre thing to try to apply to a discussion of whether people will continue to play a game character or not it's not even funny. Your analogy doesn't work.

 

[WakerofWinds]

The sad part of all this is that it isn't necessary to think outside the box for extra tactics against Meta Knight. People can't even grasp the basics down properly, and they're expecting to ban Meta Knight because he's too difficult to deal with. I released a thread a little while ago regarding how to properly regain control in the air with aerials, allowing an individual to survive for much longer. Very few top players even bothered to do it in battle, let alone knew about it. And it is one of the simplest things to grasp and practice. It is as simple as Directional Influence, and most people don't even do that properly either.

How the hell do people expect to beat Meta Knight if they can't use simple basics in the match? No. You can't fudge things in a match against a character like that. That doesn't mean you can't win if you pay attention, use your basics properly, and play smart. Most people don't though, bottom line.

Wait, could you post a link to that thread? I'd like to look at it if you don't mind.


@ Red Ryu
Also... the human psyche might also could suggest that if there's a looming threat, people might do everything in their power to be ready for said threat, in this case a temp ban on MK.

If we went with Maslow's hierarchy of needs, we'd see people preparing against MK, just, on a psychological side note.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The people who would think that was scrubbish probably have already quit Brawl.

The MK players quitting will be offset by those who have and are already quitting because of MK. Your point neutralizes whether MK is ever unbanned or not.

In case you haven't noticed from the poll, there's a very signifigant sentiment that banning MK now is scrubbish. If we do this properly most of those with that sentiment will not act upon it.

As for players already quitting brawl, that's why we have to figure out explicitly what our tolerance is and get our criteria down. They'll be a set number of players leaving when/if MK is banned, whereas the number of players leaving because of MK is a flow.


Also, it's not unreasonable to assume that if we develop a timeframe that a signifigant number people will not wait it out, or if MK is banned a reletively short time after they quit, a good number of people will not return.


But... the question of timing is something that we as a community must decide soon. I already posted my suggestions for how to deal with this.

This appears to only be creditable to you because you've said it. We have no proof whatsoever that the Smash community will no longer seriously try things with MK if he's banned, and you're making up numbers and pretending they're valid about it.

Ask high-level players, they'll tell you the same thing, "why play to learn with a character I can't compete with". High-leveled players are practical, there's nothing practical about playing to learn with a banned character.

I was going to mention this, but it doesn't really matter...I can already tell that you'd refute it as "not accurate", so why bother lol

Incomplete=inaccurate

I found Dan's methods very effective, it's just not finished. That's WHY I'm saying "too soon"

We know matchups in this game, what's to suggest we don't? Show me an in-accurate match up chart...please...

All of them so far. Either because they are incomplete or contain blatent falsehoods.

I mean the charts of all characters of course. The individual character boards I am not sure of.

I'll answer that for you. There isn't one.

Go to the Meta Knight boards, and you'll find a thread claiming Fox is the only character to go even with Meta Knight at all. Isn't that a bowl of kellogs lawl crunch cereal?

And according to him we know a lot about the game. Yeah, sure. We can't even figure out the **** match ups for the best, most popular character played in Smash. Like hell we do.

Which was my point.

If only for that reason, it's too soon to even ban him.

I think they'd still be playing to win, even in friendlies. So, it would help.

Both responses and sides have credible responses, it's not one sided.

No, the point is it's impractical to play a banned character in friendlies where the point is "playing to learn".

Really, friendlies is where the vast majority of new tactics develop, whereas tournaments is where they get tested. You don't lose money in friendlies, so people don't mind losing.

But, it's still an investment of time, and people aren't going to totally waste it. Even spending time on Captain Falcon produces an infinitely greater return then MK, because at least you can use him in tournaments.

I don't think you can accurately quantify it.


1: I'd give it a matter of months, myself. Was the "hundreds of years" just to illustrate a point, or do you think it would take that long? I don't dismiss the possibility that it could take that long, but I think it's likely that it will happen earlier.

Possibly, assuming the game remains around, I'd give a preliminary estimate at aprox. 24, but I'd have to do a lot of calculations.

2: Again possible, but we'll never know how likely this is unless said technique is found. I suppose, academically, this is an argument in favor of keeping MK around. But again, I think this is unlikely. It's human nature to fiddle with things, and many discoveries are completely unintentional. At this point, so many people have looked for a flaw with MK that I think any counter that's discovered will be via people exploring non-MK related avenues.

The issue is a single technique needs only discovery. If it's dramatic enough, people will notice.

Multiple techniques need considerable testing together in a "play to win" enviroment, aka a tournament enviroment, otherwise it won't "click" that they balance the character.

3: Players will leave whatever happens. We have no way to gauge which path will cause more players to leave, or to return. Are there any alternatives to SSBB, besides Melee? I think it's a relatively unique genre, so if it doesn't devolve into MK dittoes or some other extreme scenario, players will keep playing because they enjoy the genre.

But we can quantify it reletively.



Regardless, as it stands, the most important issue is a lack of COMPLETE information and a good ban criteria.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Human development, the biggest threat gets attacked and killed.

By "human development" MK is doomed to banning.

Anyway, this is such a bizarre thing to try to apply to a discussion of whether people will continue to play a game character or not it's not even funny. Your analogy doesn't work.

It's relevant if you consider human behavior.

People will be more likely to look for counters when Metaknight is dominating rather than when he isn't. There are huge sums of money on the line at most of these tournaments. If Metaknight is commonplace, people are going to try and figure out ways to beat him.

There is a need to beat him rather than a want.

This is applying to whether people will look for techs to beat him or not. History says they won't.

 

[Ulevo]

Wait, could you post a link to that thread? I'd like to look at it if you don't mind.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192522

10recoveries

 

[WakerofWinds]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192522

10recoveries

Much thanks sir.

 

[salaboB]

In case you haven't noticed from the poll, there's a very signifigant sentiment that banning MK now is scrubbish. If we do this properly most of those with that sentiment will not act upon it.

Where are you getting your definition of the term scrubbish from?

Don't say Sirlin, because Sirlin has specifically said (It was quoted earlier in this very thread) that his Playing to Win 1 (Which is where the most common definition of Scrub used around these boards comes from) has nothing to do with making tournament rules.

This discussion of banning MK is a decision about tournament rules. Actually banning MK is a decision about tournament rules. There is nothing scrubbish about making tournament rules, unless you're making up your own definition for the word and I'd request you start saying "Bulmish" so everyone can tell you're not using a term they know already.

Spoiler

I sure hope "Bulmish" doesn't mean something bad in some other language...

Also, you again are stating opinion: Who has said they will quit if he is banned but only if he is banned prematurely? That's the only case where doing this "properly" or not will cause a different reaction.

Edit: This is going to be my last comment about this, because I'm tired of my explanations being ignored while you pull justifications out of thin air. What the vote shows is that 40% of those who have voted feel MK should not be banned. There is no way for you to tell what number of the No votes believe it is "scrubbish", or simply feel it's not time yet, or just not necessary. So you haven't proven a thing with this about the community's feeling for it, you only have what they feel should or shouldn't be done that you can say with any certainty.

 

[cman]

Also, you again are stating opinion: Who has said they will quit if he is banned but only if he is banned prematurely? That's the only case where doing this "properly" or not will cause a different reaction.

Perhaps the topic for another poll? I expect some to quit, but doubt as many as others expect. I guess most MK mains would just drop back to other characters. Just speculation though.

 

[MarKO X]

Well I heard this nasty li'l rumor about top players picking up MK just to get him banned... hmmmm...

 

[mariofanpm12]

Such a fierce debate. Though one side usually has 58-59% and the other 41-42%, neitehr can take a big enough lead to really win, because both are still in the 40-60 range, which is too close to call.

Myabe whne one otpion reaches... 70%, maybe?

 

[salaboB]

Perhaps the topic for another poll? I expect some to quit, but doubt as many as others expect. I guess most MK mains would just drop back to other characters. Just speculation though.

If people could be trusted to vote accurately it would be worth more, the problem is you'd probably see a bunch voting "Yes I'll quit" to try to make it look worse than what will actually happen to so it would be less likely he'd get banned.

We've already seen people trying to massage numbers and pull even matchups out of characters that MK beats quite handily in attempts to do just that.

 

[mariofanpm12]

I presume then that the first MK Ban Discussion Thread is on discussing and debating as to whether or not he should/will be banned, and this thread is about discussing/debating what will happen of he is or isn't.

Am I right?

 

[Mortimer]

Such a fierce debate. Though one side usually has 58-59% and the other 41-42%, neitehr can take a big enough lead to really win, because both are still in the 40-60 range, which is too close to call.

Myabe whne one otpion reaches... 70%, maybe?

If it were 90% it MIGHT be enough of a reason to ban, but the poll would have to be carefully scrutinized. If it were unanimous then I think we could rely on the poll results to ban him.

As it is, this poll doesn't really mean anything, other than to illustrate a difference of opinions.

 

[EazyP]

Well I heard this nasty li'l rumor about top players picking up MK just to get him banned... hmmmm...

Believe it

 

[salaboB]

Well I heard this nasty li'l rumor about top players picking up MK just to get him banned... hmmmm...

So?

Spoiler

10sowhat's?

 

[CR4SH]

more than I want to quote

No sir, if there are more than one variable within an algebraic statement, they must have a quantitative relationship to eachother, numbers or not, something similar must compare the two. Without this you have single variable algebra, which needs numbers. Otherwise you're simply making an argument based on the laws of logic itself, which I don't see you directly applying. Just because you've taken algebra doesn't mean you understand algebra.

 

[Niko_K]

So Vex Karasani may have found a potential CG against MK.

Be marth or snake, grab release to shield cancelled grab.

It works?

 

[XKarasuX]

I voted for no banning meta even though i play samus and he is my hardest match up but i still believe it isn't right because one he may be hard but its a fun challenge if u take it that way.
Although there are some characters that will have an easier time against him then others so don't be stubborn of having a good second or another main that can deal with him

Two figure out another strat there are always possiblities usually playing defense is my best option especially from watching Deva Best link in the world beat DSF's meta knight from a defense strat.
this also shows some serious skill when meta is predictable but hard to punish

Speed big factor thats why defense good lol =)

last i say is whats the point of banning him it kinda makes it lame since there is a character no one can choose. also to the fact that being able to beat one can improve ur skill think of him as a large obstacle not something u dislike and just don't want to deal with

Before u attack me on this subject really try yo understand me, say whatever u want=) Thnk u

really i would kinda sit at the undecided just because he can be angering yet i want to overcome him!
so this is the other side of me wishing for undecided or wait for awhile for us to figure out how to beat a meta btw i think ther should be guide for this in fact i think someone could be making one right now(lol most likely)

but the point of banning him can cause a more variety of chars i guess u might have to ban others later
lolz and also the fact that everyone including me dislike getting three stocked or whatever by this supposedly unbeatable character (MK) he is very overwhelming at times making u feel like u can't do anything to hit him

 

[salaboB]

So Vex Karasani may have found a potential CG against MK.

Be marth or snake, grab release to shield cancelled grab.

It works?

Let's hope it does, and can actually be used to lead into an attack that could kill.

(Unfortunately, I remember the Wario CG...)

 

[XienZo]

So Vex Karasani may have found a potential CG against MK.

Be marth or snake, grab release to shield cancelled grab.

It works?

Seriously?

 

[XKarasuX]

I voted for no banning meta even though i play samus and he is my hardest match up but i still believe it isn't right because one he may be hard but its a fun challenge if u take it that way.
Although there are some characters that will have an easier time against him then others so don't be stubborn of having a good second or another main that can deal with him

Two figure out another strat there are always possiblities usually playing defense is my best option especially from watching Deva Best link in the world beat DSF's meta knight from a defense strat.
this also shows some serious skill when meta is predictable but hard to punish

Speed big factor thats why defense good lol =)

last i say is whats the point of banning him it kinda makes it lame since there is a character no one can choose. also to the fact that being able to beat one can improve ur skill think of him as a large obstacle not something u dislike and just don't want to deal with

Before u attack me on this subject really try to understand me, then say whatever u want=) Thnk u

really i would kinda sit at the undecided just because he can be angering yet i want to overcome him!
so this is the other side of me wishing for undecided or wait for awhile for us to figure out how to beat a meta btw i think ther should be guide for this in fact i think someone could be making one right now(lol most likely)

but the point of banning him can cause a more variety of chars i guess u might have to ban others later
lolz and also the fact that everyone including me dislike getting three stocked or whatever by this supposedly unbeatable character (MK) he is very overwhelming at times making u feel like u can't do anything to hit him

 

[Deoxys]

Dan's Matchup Chart is probably as accurate as it gets. Unfortunately it isn't complete

DK, Bowser, and ZSS, all some of MK's worst matchups, aren't even in the chart. This alone in my opinion is evidence that we don't know enough at the moment to justly ban MK.

 

[Overswarm]

So Vex Karasani may have found a potential CG against MK.

Be marth or snake, grab release to shield cancelled grab.

It works?

tested with Marth. No dice. Cannot buffer grab before MK can f-tilt (frame 3 yo)

 

[WakerofWinds]

but the point of banning him can cause a more variety of chars i guess u might have to ban others later
lolz and also the fact that everyone including me dislike getting three stocked or whatever by this supposedly unbeatable character (MK) he is very overwhelming at times making u feel like u can't do anything to hit him

The bold statement is almost certain to not come true.

 

[Deoxys]

tested with Marth. No dice. Cannot buffer grab before MK can f-tilt (frame 3 yo)

How do you find exactly what frame it is? AR or Ocarina or something!?

 

[Sinz]

I tried and couldn't do it, MK is too broken.

/thread.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

tested with Marth. No dice. Cannot buffer grab before MK can f-tilt (frame 3 yo)

How are you using ftilt from the air? Obviously those characters are going to force Meta Knight to jump break.