Should Metaknight Be Banned? The Poll (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Metro Knight]

i'll Abstain On My Guess: Meta Knight Is Supposed To Be A Pro Swordsman And Brawl Is, Of Course, A Video Game Where The Pro Swordsman Is Always Going To Have A High Threat Rating. Has Anybody Tried To Find A Way To Get Him To Approach And Exploit Any Openings, However Small? Right Now, I'm Leaning Toward Voting No, But If I See Enough Evidence That This Still Doesn't Work, I Can Just As Easily Vote Yes.

Lol Lol Lol....

 

[Overswarm]

The Yoshi fair spike doesn't not work. MK can jump, dair, u-air, and air dodge before he can do it.

 

[AlphaZealot]

2007 top 25 tournaments: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=143600
-11 of the 25 tournaments listed were won by Marth
-15 of the 25 tournaments had Marth in the top 3 (or even twice in the top 3)
-Of the 5 tournaments with at least 200 attendants, Marth won 3 and placed 2nd in the other 2


2006 MLG events:
-Of the 6 Regular season (open) events in 2006 for MLG, Marth won 5 of them (minimum attendence 143, maximum attendance 204, rough average attendance about 165)
-Marth was on the winning team for EVERY single event.

---

It is far more interesting to look at the number/variety of characters used in the top 8 then simply to look at who won, because usually the same names will appear frequently and the best players are simply the best players.

For example, HOBO 11 is often used as evidence that MK should be banned, but look at the results again:
1: M2K (meta)
2: Azen (lucario/meta)
3: Lee (meta)
4: DMG (wario
5: DSF (snake/meta)
5: Roy_R (marth)
7: Edrees (peach)
7: Hylian (GW/meta?)

There are 7 characters represented in the top 8.

Lets compare to VLS, the last major Melee tournament in 2007:

1. Azen (Marth)
2. ChuDat (Ice Climbers)
3. KoreanDJ (Sheik)
4. Mew2King (Marth)
5. Drephen (Sheik)
5. PC Chris (Fox/Falco?)
7. Chillin (Fox)
7. Darc (Jigglypuff)
(if any of these players used other characters in top 8 matches please inform me)
That is 6 characters represented in the top 8, maybe less if PC didn't use Falco (need confirmation).
---
So, should you look at just who won, or should you look at the big picture and the number of characters used in top 8 matches? Marth won the vast majority of 100+ person tournaments over Melee's life time:
In 2004, there were 2 100 person tournaments: Marth won TG6 (cali) ang GO (Virginia)
In 2005, there were 6 100 person tournaments: FC3 (Marth), GS2 (Marth), MLG DC (Marth, MLG San Francisco (need to confirm but I believe Marth), BOMB 4 (IC, but Marth took 2nd/3rd), MOAST 3 (Falcon, Marth second, correct if wrong but IIRC Isai won over Ken)
In 2006, there were 12 100+ person tournaments: (MLG New York (Opener)-Falco 1st, Marth 2nd, MLG Dallas-Marth 1st, MLG Anaheim-Marth 1st, MLG Chicago-Marth 1st, MLG Orlando-Marth 1st, MLG New York (Playoffs)-Marth 1st, FC6-Falco 1st, OC2-Marth 1st, SMYM 6-???, Gauntlet-???)

Marth was in the top 2 or won almost every single 100+ Melee tournament.
Between 2004 and 2005, of the 8 100+ person tournaments, Marth was top 2 in ALL of them, or all but one (need confirmation on MLG San Fransisco). Marth had a 62.5% win rate at 100+ tournaments between 2004/2005 and a 100% or 87.5% top 2 rate.
At least 8 of the 12 100 person tournaments in 2006 had Marth in the top 2, with no data for 2 tournaments (so through those out and make it 8 of the 10 tournaments, until someone says the winners), and Marth won almost every single MLG event (so when the money was on the line, Marth performed), there wasn't a single MLG event that there wasn't any Marths in the top 3.

 

[LeeHarris]

AZ, are you losing the argument this badly that you have to bring up an argument that has already been defeated? Long story short, Marth's dominance is nowhere near MK's.

 

[Ace55]

Lots of stuff

So you're saying we should ban Marth in Melee? Ok people you heard it here first, Marth needs to be banned. (I don't think M2K is gonna like that either)

Spoiler

jk of course

 

[adumbrodeus]

The Yoshi fair spike doesn't not work. MK can jump, dair, u-air, and air dodge before he can do it.

I thought he got to fair before MK regains control.

Moral of the story: play better MKs.

 

[AlphaZealot]

So you're saying we should ban Marth in Melee? Ok people you heard it here first, Marth needs to be banned. (I don't think M2K is gonna like that either)

No.

I'm saying Marth use to be roughly as dominant as MK is now, if maybe not as popular on the lower levels of play. I'm simply trying to cross arguments, if you apply the "look at MK all over these results!" and say that is evidence for ban, then apply that equally to results from Melee.

I don't want MK or Marth banned.

AZ, are you losing the argument this badly that you have to bring up an argument that has already been defeated? Long story short, Marth's dominance is nowhere near MK's.

Really? Did you attend any large Melee tournaments? Ever gone outside of Texas for any Smash tournaments?

You know the only person who ever came close to beating Ken between 2004 and 2005 (aside from the fluke of TG6) was Azen in Marth dittos and his partner Isai (usinig Falcon, but very rarely did he actually win)?

 

[LeeHarris]

Really? Did you attend any large Melee tournaments? Ever gone outside of Texas for any Smash tournaments?

What? How is this relevant? Please enlighten me as to how that is related to your argument being countered by other people.

 

[AlphaZealot]

What? How is this relevant? Please enlighten me as to how that is related to your argument being countered by other people.

I should ask you the same thing when you brought up "OMG AZ HASN'T BEEN TO A BRAWL TOURNAMENT IN MONTHS! DON'T LISTEN TO HIM!".

 

[Overswarm]

Really? Did you attend any large Melee tournaments? Ever gone outside of Texas for any Smash tournaments?

You know the only person who ever came close to beating Ken between 2004 and 2006 (aside from the fluke of TG6) was Azen in Marth dittos?

I did. Marth's dominance was nowhere near MK's. If you're looking for someone's name in particular, feel free to ask for 'em.

Regardless, Marth was a good character used by only a few top players successfully. MK is used successfully across the board with terrifying results.

To further separate the two, Marth could be punished. He could be gimped, edgeguarded, combo'd, and even chain grabbed a bit. His dash was also slower, so he had difficulty dealing with projectiles.

You saying Ken dominating with Marth is as silly as if we said MK should be banned just because M2K does well with him.

 

[LeeHarris]

I should ask you the same thing when you brought up "OMG AZ HASN'T BEEN TO A BRAWL TOURNAMENT IN MONTHS! DON'T LISTEN TO HIM!".

Because you try to bring up arguments and points when you don't have the experience. I merely stated that your argument has been countered already (by people far more experienced in Melee than I).

 

[goldemblem]

I did. Marth's dominance was nowhere near MK's. If you're looking for someone's name in particular, feel free to ask for 'em.

Regardless, Marth was a good character used by only a few top players successfully. MK is used successfully across the board with terrifying results.

To further separate the two, Marth could be punished. He could be gimped, edgeguarded, combo'd, and even chain grabbed a bit. His dash was also slower, so he had difficulty dealing with projectiles.

You saying Ken dominating with Marth is as silly as if we said MK should be banned just because M2K does well with him.

I agree with this, and from what i have read AZ hasn't been in a lot of Brawl tournaments, so he it's really does not have a really good knowledge about the metagame and metaknight, i don't want him to flame him, it's just my oppinion

 

[PhantomX]

Didn't Melee have almost half as many characters as Brawl? Marth would be shunting a considerably smaller number of characters than MK, if that were so.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I agree with this, and from what i have read AZ hasn't been in a lot of Brawl tournaments, so he it's really does not have a really good knowledge about the metagame and metaknight, i don't want him to flame him, it's just my oppinion

You don't need to go to tournaments to understand the metagame.

A concerted group of friends dedicated to breaking the game if they get information from the community at large (aka, frequent smashboards) can become high-leveled players without attending a single tourny.


In the same situation, an intelligent person who watches vids of high-leveled players, and discusses the development of the metagame with high-leveled players (that are good at debating these types of issues) can obtain a far better understanding of the metagame then a player who just goes to tournaments. Actually, a good tournament player will seldom understand the overall effects that make or break the metagame without this discussion.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I did. Marth's dominance was nowhere near MK's. If you're looking for someone's name in particular, feel free to ask for 'em.

OS, you never went outside the midwest, and do I need to remind you who won FCD? Or who won the MLG Playoffs (one of the only tournaments you did travel outside the midwest for?)

True of False: Marth was in the finals at the majority of every national tournament during Melee's lifespan?

You saying Ken dominating with Marth is as silly as if we said MK should be banned just because M2K does well with him.

This quote is going to haunt you later.

Long story short, Marth's dominance is nowhere near MK's.

That was an assertion YOU made.

And in my case, when I wasn't going to tournaments, I was still playing with top players. Even if I haven't played against Azen/Chillin in 4 months, I have more experience against them than OS/LeeHarris combined. In that 4 month time span, I've been playing with Quivo, who has been to Brawl tournaments, and he agrees, MK should not be banned. Then, at my very first Brawl tournament in like 6 months, I got third, beating Dook who has FAR more experience in Brawl tournaments than me (he came all the way from Arizona) and taking Inui, who has been to 2-3 Brawl tournaments a month for 6 months, using the best character in the game, to game 5.

 

[ShadowLink84]

That was an assertion YOU made.

Not really. He is basing that off of all the tournaments not just the 5 or 6 large ones held yearly.

If you look at all the tournaments (small tournaments of around 32 and up) you'll notice that MK is alot more dominant than Marth was in melee.

 

[LeeHarris]

That was an assertion YOU made.

And in my case, when I wasn't going to tournaments, I was still playing with top players. Even if I haven't played against Azen/Chillin in 4 months, I have more experience against them than OS/LeeHarris combined.

Nope. It was not an assertion I made. It was a summary of the arguments presented.

And are you talking about Brawl? I hope not.

 

[AlphaZealot]

And are you talking about Brawl? I hope not.

In reference to playing Chillin/Azen? Yes, I am. You may have more recent experience, but I gaurantee I have logged more hours playing with them than you. Actually, I think my girlfriend has logged more hours playing with them than you/OS. And I'll probably play them again in the next 2 months, so if your argument is about recent activities, then it will be short lived.

True of False: Marth was in the finals at the majority of every national tournament during Melee's lifespan?

 

[Overswarm]

True of False: Marth was in the finals at the majority of every national tournament during Melee's lifespan?

True or False: Fox, Falco, and Sheik all contended for those spots throughout the game's lifespan?

This quote is going to haunt you later.

Only if you claim I'm using M2K as the only reason... I'm not. You've made multiple assertions and have presented no evidence that is consistent... and you never follow through with anything you present.

For example:

You predicted, incorrectly, that Diddy was an MK counter.

Ninjalink, AFTER you said diddy was an MK counter (this is theorycraft, btw), beats M2K and several other MKs. People momentarily rejoice, thinking that the game will have many unique counters to all the top tiers.

Mew2King blasts NL's victory, saying he only lost it due to matchup inexperience.

Ninjalink is the only Diddy that does this. Ever.

Ninjalink loses to Inui, a 2-week old MK that had decent results at best before he switched characters.

Skip a long time.

You bring up how you were the only one that took a match off of Inui, taking him to game 5... in a set where you had him agree to only play on neutrals and not ban FD.

You have nothing substantial; your entire argument is "this one thing happened once, so it might happen again", while mine is "Sure, that Diddy beat an MK this one time, that DK beat an MK another time, whatever. I don't care, because MK beats him the other 19 times. Including the person you were referencing."

That was an assertion YOU made.

Anyone that played Melee knows that Marth was nowhere near as dominant as MK is now. Marth was used well by Ken, Azen, and M2K. Past that, there were several good players that used him, but none nearly so dominant.

Ice Climbers, Captain Falcon, Sheik, Falco, and Fox all did extremely well.... consistently... in tournament play.

In Brawl, a game with many more character options and much larger tier groups, people are dropping their mains AND secondaries to simply play Metaknight..... and are being rewarded for it.

In reference to playing Chillin/Azen? Yes, I am. You may have more recent experience, but I gaurantee I have logged more hours playing with them than you. Actually, I think my girlfriend has logged more hours playing with them than you/OS. And I'll probably play them again in the next 2 months, so if your argument is about recent activities, then it will be short lived.

Chillin? The guy who wants MK banned? =P

Don't name drop and act like it helps your case. I play friendlies with my little brother, that doesn't mean much other than he plays with me.

 

[ShadowLink84]

O_O

AZ has a girlfriend!?
NERDS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE GIRLFRIENDS!

STRIP HIM OF MODSHIP!

Spoiler

Just kidding. However I was curious if I could play you again sometime because I want to have more experience against Diddy users.

 

[AlphaZealot]

You bring up how you were the only one that took a match off of Inui... in a set where you had him agree to only play on neutrals and not ban FD.

If you watch the set, my most convincing win was on my WORST neutral stage. Him banning FD probably would have been a blessing, and I would have banned cruise, after which there aren't many bad stages for Diddy.

Anyone that played Melee knows that Marth was nowhere near as dominant as MK is now. Marth was used well by Ken, Azen, and M2K. Past that, there were several good players that used him, but none nearly so dominant.

Ice Climbers, Captain Falcon, Sheik, Falco, and Fox all did extremely well.... consistently... in tournament play.

If you wanted to win consistently, instead of "doing well", you played Marth. Azen played ALL characters, but when it came to performing, he used Marth. Mew2King was arguably one of, if not THE, best Fox players in the country, but he didn't become a contender on a consistent basis until he switched to Marth. Captain Falcon never won a tournament with a top Marth in attendance since Moast in 2005 (Isai over Ken). ChuDat's record against Ken is something like 2-14. Your ONLY saving grace is PC Chris in2006, who considered M2K better than him in 2007 (and lost FCD to him after being up 3-0, he dropped 6 straight games in the finals, he even had to try out Peach). Finally, there is Sheik, and aside from sporadic appearances of KDJ, Sheik consistently lost to Marth.

 

[Overswarm]

If you watch the set, my most convincing win was on my WORST neutral stage. Him banning FD probably would have been a blessing, and I would have banned cruise, after which there aren't many bad stages for Diddy.

I'm sure this is exactly why you made that agreement.

If you wanted to win consistently, instead of "doing well", you played Marth. Azen played ALL characters, but when it came to performing, he used Marth. Mew2King was arguably one of, if not THE, best Fox players in the country, but he didn't become a contender on a consistent basis until he switched to Marth. Captain Falcon never won a tournament with a top Marth in attendance since Moast in 2005 (Isai over Ken). ChuDat's record against Ken is something like 2-14. Your ONLY saving grace is PC Chris in2006, who considered M2K better than him in 2007 (and lost FCD to him after being up 3-0, he dropped 6 straight games in the finals, he even had to try out Peach).

They split, AZ.

Marth had weaknesses. Ken would switch to Fox. Mew2King would switch to Fox. Azen would switch to God knows what. When a disadvantage came about due to a stage, they'd switch. There is no such thing in Brawl.

Besides, no one called for the banning of Marth in Melee, and the people at the head of the ban-MK movement were people that dealt with him all the time.

 

[AlphaZealot]

True or False: Fox, Falco, and Sheik all contended for those spots throughout the game's lifespan?

False. If you are a contender, you actually have to get a win. When was the last time a Fox won a national tournament in Melee? You should have said "Jigglypuff, Falco, Shiek", that would have been closer to accurate, but it still wouldn't scratch the surface because NONE of those characters logged as many victories or top 3 finishes as Marth.

m sure this is exactly why you made that agreement.

Hindsight 50/50, Inui knew the match up on FD to well, and didn't know it on BF, had I had the same opportunity again, I would probably not make the agreement.

When Ken/Azen/M2K switched, they usually lost.

I don't WANT Marth banned, I'm simply pointing out that Marth has similar placements as MK and in the early days was equally as dominant. The idea being simple: if you look at the results, compare it to Melee.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

False. If you are a contender, you actually have to get a win. When was the last time a Fox won a national tournament in Melee? You should have said "Jigglypuff, Falco, Shiek", that would have been closer to accurate, but it still wouldn't scratch the surface because NONE of those characters logged as many victories or top 3 finishes as Marth.

But is Marth the better character? And if so, does HE need banned?

Smooth Criminal

 

[adumbrodeus]

False. If you are a contender, you actually have to get a win. When was the last time a Fox won a national tournament in Melee? You should have said "Jigglypuff, Falco, Shiek", that would have been closer to accurate, but it still wouldn't scratch the surface because NONE of those characters logged as many victories or top 3 finishes as Marth.

And here's where we point out the fact that margin matters.


Then there's also another major issue, fox is still theoretically the best, he's just immensly hard to use at his full potential, and it hasn't been achieved, as of yet.

 

[Overswarm]

False. If you are a contender, you actually have to get a win. When was the last time a Fox won a national tournament in Melee? You should have said "Jigglypuff, Falco, Shiek", that would have been closer to accurate, but it still wouldn't scratch the surface because NONE of those characters logged as many victories or top 3 finishes as Marth.

Wait.... so you're counting only national tournaments where there were 3 consistent high placing Marth players (all three of which are deemed to be some of the best in the history of Smash) in a whole slew of other characters with notable victories over Marth (and yeah, I forgot Jiggs)....

But I'm referencing tournaments from everywhere that show an ever increasing level of Metaknight dominance.

And this is comparable?



There's a reason there were only a few successful Marth players. Marth wasn't broken.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Wait.... so you're counting only national tournaments where there were 3 consistent high placing Marth players (all three of which are deemed to be some of the best in the history of Smash) in a whole slew of other characters with notable victories over Marth (and yeah, I forgot Jiggs)....

Wait, so at HOBO 11, when one of the best MK's in Texas got third, and two of the best players in the country got 1st and 2nd...

And here's where we point out the fact that margin matters.

Not according to OS, he has stated previously that CLOSE doesn't cut it.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Marth had weaknesses. Ken would switch to Fox. Mew2King would switch to Fox. Azen would switch to God knows what. When a disadvantage came about due to a stage, they'd switch.

Not true...

 

[M.K]

Wait, so at HOBO 11, when one of the best MK's in Texas got third, and two of the best players in the country got 1st and 2nd...

How about you look at the next 8 placings?

 

[Overswarm]

Wait, so at HOBO 11, when one of the best MK's in Texas got third, and two of the best players in the country got 1st and 2nd...

And half of the people in bracket played Metaknight, and I believe over 2/3rds of the top 10....


Stop cherry picking and trying to compare Marth to MK. No one wants Marth banned. A ton of people want MK banned. There are reasons for this. If you cannot see a significant difference between MK and Marth, I don't think there's much hope of getting anything clear from discussing any of your points.

Not according to OS, he has stated previously that CLOSE doesn't cut it.

This was in reference to you "almost" beating Inui on the last game of the set you agreed to play only on neutrals (so Diddy won't get CP'd) and not have FD banned (so you get your favorite and Diddy's best stage).

 

[DMG]

Wait, so at HOBO 11, when one of the best MK's in Texas got third, and two of the best players in the country got 1st and 2nd...

Incorrect Sir, Lee Martin (the guy who got 3rd) is actually an OOS player, I believe from Louisiana.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth WAS broken.

He just had weaknesses. This is called...good character design.

MK has no exploitable weaknesses. If you beat MK you didn't actually beat MK. You just beat the person using MK. This is called bad character design.

*goes back to practicing alpha 2

 

[AlphaZealot]

How about you look at the next 8 placings?

DOJO (Best MK in Texas): 9th


1: M2K (meta)
2: Azen (lucario/meta)
3: Lee (meta) (OOS Player, my bad)
4: DMG (wario
5: DSF (snake/meta)
5: Roy_R (marth)
7: Edrees (peach)
7: Hylian (GW/meta?)
At best its 5/8ths used MK, though if you look at every top 8 match, I would bet less than half featured MK dittos.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Wait, so at HOBO 11, when one of the best MK's in Texas got third, and two of the best players in the country got 1st and 2nd...

And this is comparable, how?

Hobo 11 is one tournament, whereas the overall tournament results show MK as having a considerable level of dominance. Is there any evidence that Marth duplicated anywhere near close to this margin in melee?

Heck, he's only arguably the top character, he's STILL under fox in the latest tier list, and in the previous tier list he was only high.

Finally, Marth didn't centralize the metagame anywhere near as much, he personally did very little to make any particular characters not be tournament viable (Sheik did this the most, and even Sheik didn't really make any characters unviable personally, others in top/high duplicated the match-up or came close enough).

There is overall, no comparison between MK and Marth in bannability.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Sheik did the same thing in the beginning of Melee, MK does now

 

[AlphaZealot]

Its comparible because of this:

Wait.... so you're counting only national tournaments where there were 3 consistent high placing Marth players (all three of which are deemed to be some of the best in the history of Smash) in a whole slew of other characters with notable victories over Marth (and yeah, I forgot Jiggs)....

In other words, he is saying when the three best Marth players show up, of course Marth will do well! The retort is, when the two best players in the country show up, of course they are going to get 1st/2nd.

I'm just looking at the results:

FAST: Marth was in the finals in the majority of national (or regional even) tournaments during Melee's lifespan.

---

You guys better get that critiria down, because if its just based on tournament results, be prepared to apply it across the board.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Its comparible because of this:



In other words, he is saying when the three best Marth players show up, of course Marth will do well! The retort is, when the two best players in the country show up, of course they are going to get 1st/2nd.

Which just continues to prove the point that if the skill differential is great enough ANY MATCH-UP is winnable.

But the fact is, if you see meteoric rises in player's rankings by switching, tons of characters being made nearly unviable by a single character, and an overall massive level of tournament dominance, something is going on.

Really high-skilled players beating MK is the exception, not the rule, not because they don't beat him often when this occurs, but instead because it's rare that the skill difference is great enough.


And the very fact that we can argu that he's comparable to both Marth AND Sheik also illustrates the issue. Basically, MK is doing what both characters did in melee, combined into one, plus a little extra.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Sheik did the same thing in the beginning of Melee, MK does now

No she didn't. Look at tournament results. The dominance of Sheikw as not comparable to the dominance of MK i think. I may be crapped out on my memory of the tournaments though, correct me if I amw rong.

In other words, he is saying when the three best Marth players show up, of course Marth will do well! The retort is, when the two best players in the country show up, of course they are going to get 1st/2nd.

What dose this retort? He is criticizing you for using only one tournament as a comparison to the level of dominance that MK has done.

Again the issue is the amount of dominance the character had achieved. Marth did not have the same level of dominance as MK did in terms of ALL tournaments.
Int erms of only the large tournaments then they are comparable.

holistically though, MK is doing much better than marth has done.

 

[ShadowLink84]

stupid comp

 

[Justblaze647]

MK has no exploitable weaknesses. If you beat MK you didn't actually beat MK. You just beat the person using MK. This is called bad character design.

QFT and sigged...