Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[One_With_Sumthing]

This. I'll say it for perhaps the 3rd time:
People are LEAVING the Brawl Community because of MK. The Metagame has and will STAGNATE until he is gone. The Metagame IS or very soon WILL be all about MK.

Not a single thing any of the anti-banners have said counters this, and not because no one has presented a good argument-it's just that those 3 points are FACTS, and destroy any other argument. Even without going into the long explanation of why MK is broken, these simple points make a ban a must.

People are leaving the Brawl Community for many other reasons too, including other characters.

The Metagame has not stagnated; if you go to any tournaments at all you will notice that players are improving despite the existence of MK (Le gasp).

To say that the metagame is all about MK is a hyperbole, distortion.

 

[Yanoss1313]

This. I'll say it for perhaps the 3rd time:
People are LEAVING the Brawl Community because of MK. The Metagame has and will STAGNATE until he is gone. The Metagame IS or very soon WILL be all about MK.

Not a single thing any of the anti-banners have said counters this, and not because no one has presented a good argument-it's just that those 3 points are FACTS, and destroy any other argument. Even without going into the long explanation of why MK is broken, these simple points make a ban a must.

this is a very valid point, hell, half of my crew mates have dropped brawl and moved on to other games like TvC (tatsunoko vs capcom) for this reason alone, half the time i'm showing up to tourneys alone now. to be honest, it's becoming more and more difficult to resist the urge to join them... i mean ****, i've even picked up brawl plus now because of this.

 

[Chuee]

Mk isn't going to be banned. So what if mk has no bad matchups. You can still beat a mk with the characters that have 45-55 matchups against him if your better than your opponent.
Mk isn't that broken enough to be banned.

 

[Player-1]

Next time RJ goes and post a post from an argument, it'd be awesome if he'd show the WHOLE debate:

Thien...every time you post I have to bust out the dictionary...

But I have to disagree here.

I think you misunderstood something here:



I don't know if you meant this, but it sounds like you're saying that we basically said 'MK doesn't have nearly as many options with bananas as Diddy does so it's a neutral matchup.' Which I, personally, wasn't saying that at all, and from what it sounded to me, it didn't sound like the other Diddy players were saying that. That just got started because someone was saying that what if the MK player could use Diddy's bananas better than he could, and our responses were the quotes that you listed above. I really hate what if questions like this...But if 2 players were equally skilled with their character and the matchup, then NO MK shouldn't be using the bananas better or equal to Diddy. MK has a few tricks he can pull out with bananas, but not nearly as much as Diddy does is my point.

Then you said:


Well, I can easily say the same vice versa here. What if an MK main decided to start maining Diddy? Woudn't the MK main know exactly how to use the bananas to his advantage? Always spaces and times his aerials correctly? Know MK's frame data so he knows that he can Dthrow a bananas faster than MK can dmash? Know how to avoid being gimped by the MK? I think you were being completely one sided here, because 1st off, the question is a what if question, and 2nd you can say the same exact thing for an MK main dropping him and moving on to Diddy.

No, you misunderstood. What I feel like you all are saying is that there is "no possible way" for a Meta Knight player to equal or eclipse a Diddy Kong player in the realm of banana control. I contend otherwise and claim that it is possible.



The text highlighted in sea green indicates that this statement is a value judgment. You and everyone else I quoted are not issuing statements of universal truth, but statements that are 100% opinion-based. Therefore, it is in my humble minority opinion that a Meta Knight player can match or exceed Diddy Kong players as far as banana micromanagement is concerned, and these tactics do not involve fancy dribbling mind-games or popgun cancels.



Actually...no. You can't. The reverse argument does not work because my argument revolves around the fact that Meta Knight has an inherent, overall advantage over Diddy Kong. This implies that no matter how "equal" both players are in terms of skill, the person maining Meta Knight (at this point in the meta-game) will always win.

The reason I'm considering (temporarily) picking up Meta Knight is because I want to showcase not only how easy it is to take advantage of his small learning curve, but to also demonstrate that a Meta Knight player who knows the ins and outs of this match-up is far more dangerous than a Diddy Kong who knows the same things.

Just to point out, Mew2King doesn't deploy all the universal item-related techniques to consistently win in this match-up. He plays a solid and fundamental rush-down game and applies basic, virtually unavoidable off-stage pressure...and wins. How much harder would this match-up get if everyone practiced what we know? This is the essence of my argument.

First paragraph- No one ever said that it 'wasn't possible', obviously it's possible. The point I'm making is that it SHOULDN'T be happening. My point is that if a Diddy Kong main and an MK main faced off in a tournament match and they're at and playing at the EXACT same skill level, with their main and in the matchup. Then the Diddy Kong player will have the better banana control the majority of the match. Now I can't say that they both know EVERYTHING about the matchup and their character and they're playing PERFECTLY because that's not realistic first off, and 2nd off neither character would ever win, the timer would run out with them at both 0%. So let's say these 2 players are average players, both both equally average. The Diddy player WILL have the better banana game the majority of the match. But obviously this isn't a perfect world and players have bad days or good days and with all of the luck that is put into brawl (Peach + turnips, tripping, lugi's misfires, etc.) you won't ever have this match.

2nd paragraph- I never said that Diddy will always have the better banana game is a fact, and I'm not saying that what you posted isn't an opinion, I'm just questioning your opinion. Meta Knight just loses in the majority of the aspects of what we call 'banana game' this is what I'm saying is a fact, but it's my opinion it's a fact. MK can have the better banana game, but he just has to overcome the odds against it.

3rd paragraph- Well I don't know when this became your argument, because you were the one quoting us implying that you were entering our argument. But our argument revolves around Diddy having a dead even 50:50 matchup against MK on most neutral stages, so actually yes I can say that.

4th and 5th- go ahead and main mk, that really wasn't the point of what I was saying.

You are free to believe this as you wish. Other than Wyatt and myself though, I don't feel that there is anyone else in this thread that have played with the country's best Meta Knights, so I'm equally free to find the grounds of your argument (which I would assume to be your own personal experience) precarious in the very least.

In that light, I don't understand you even feel that Diddy Kong goes even with MK on starter stages, ADHD. Both you and M2K are considered the bar for your respective characters' meta-games at the moment, and the majority of matches that you have lost to Jason on are (as you admitted yourself) starter stages. How much longer can any of you cling onto your arguments and write it off as ADHD not being as good as M2K (which I don't think is even true, honestly) before you just concede that Meta Knight has at least a small advantage over Diddy Kong?



Just to clarify, I realize I'm just fighting fire with fire right now, and that this dialogue doesn't really amount to much more than a battle of opinions. These are the calculated risks you take by making leaps in logic in order to define what you people believe to be the "precise, mathematically determined ratios" for specific match-ups, especially match-ups that are considered as close as this one. This is the fallacy with arguing subjective arguments and then subsequently bolstering them with subjective points, and the number one reason why I think my brain would hemorrhage if I was in charge of the match-up thread.

But thanks for your permission all the same. =) Meta Knight is amazing, and that was not sarcasm.

but the flaw here is that just like MKs can adapt to the banana game, Diddy can adapt and make it even better.

It's like the theory of evolution. Let's say we make a skill level thingy for Diddy:
Best
Good
Decent
Bad
Worst

and let's say that all of the decent Diddy's and down get killed off by the MKs ****** them, the good ones go even with the MKs, and the best Diddys still beat the MKs. The better Diddys survived by adapting to the MKs and making new tactics, ATs, etc. This was then passed down to their offspring (we obviously can't kill all the decent diddys and down, then reproduce like animals do, lol, so think of it that these diddys get reborn as the offspring), then the Diddys are back on top and things flip flop like that until one species goes extinct or for some reason the world blows up or the population is separated or something like that.



I base my opinions on personal experience, tournament results, and individuals playing each other btw.

And I feel that I have just as much as a right to find the grounds of your argument as well (well actually I DO have the right, but however many people think my opinions are accurate is what matters).

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=231138

 

[AvaricePanda]

People are LEAVING the Brawl Community because of MK. The Metagame has and will STAGNATE until he is gone. The Metagame IS or very soon WILL be all about MK.

Not a single thing any of the anti-banners have said counters this, and not because no one has presented a good argument-it's just that those 3 points are FACTS, and destroy any other argument. Even without going into the long explanation of why MK is broken, these simple points make a ban a must.

First point is true, although to a very slight extent (and it's also not the sole reason for people leaving, it's that plus other things, usually). Second and third points are guesses and hyperboles. You can't say that those are undeniable.

The metagame isn't stagnating, nor do I see how it will stagnate. How exactly would this happen? The meta-game can't possibly stagnate unless literally every single person switches to MK, which is not ever going to happen. And you can say anything that you can about the future, but you really can't predict the future. You can't say, "The metagame will be revolved around MK in the future, therefore we should ban him in the present."

Just no.

See, the thing is, I pretty sure most of the anti-banners aren't idiots-****, it doesn't take brainpower to see that he's broken. It's just the amount of mental gymnastics that some of them (and the "pros") have done to convince themselves that Mk is anything but is almost to a laughable extent. I'm pretty sure the real answer is "We don't want to ban him because we like free money and the fame playing this character has brought us." Which would make things a lot easier if they'd just up and admit that.

Yes, because everyone who's against your opinion is only against your opinion for some twisted reason.

-facepalm-

A lot of anti-banners, including me, OLOL DON'T MAIN METAKNIGHT. They find that he isn't broken for good reasons. Others find that he is broken, for good reasons. People that main MK don't only want him not banned because they want to earn money. M2K has said himself that MK is just really fun for him, and saying that he, along with any other MK mainer, only doesn't want them banned because they'll stop making money is just inane (plus, a player of his caliber will just **** with another character with D3, so there goes that argument). And not every MK main doesn't want him banned. OS wants MK banned and mains MK.

Don't stereotype and lump people into bad groups because you fail to see beyond your own opinion. It makes most of the points you've brought up seem immature and invalid, and I honestly had a lot more respect for your argument until you said this. Plus, reasons for wanting MK banned have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with the fact if he's broken or not. I could just as easily say, "Some pro-banners only want him banned because their character is bad at the match-up,", but that ultimately doesn't matter when it comes to the actual character being banned, now does it? It would just make me look like an idiot.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Avarice if I was a different kind of man I'd kiss you.

 

[Eyada]

This might seem off-topic, but it is related to the Meta Knight debate. I promise.

Question:

What is the average, or most common, method of prize distribution for tournaments? Meaning, which places (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and so on) receive money, and what %'s are payed out to each place?

I've tried digging through tournament listings and tournament results listings to find pay-out schemes in order to calculate an average from those; however, to be perfectly honest, it would take a hideous amount of time to gather up a representative sample and compute an average. Moreover, there is a really wide variety of pay-out schemes. So, at this point, I'm just looking for a good rule-of-thumb, heuristic, guesstimate, or approximation.

I am trying to calculate the average value of the probability distribution for placing and winning money as Meta Knight and other characters. I am using data from Ankoku's thread. I have already calculated the average entry fee, and the average number of entrants, and Ankoku's thread provides all the data needed to calculate the probability of placing in the money with various characters. All I need is a representative pay-out scheme and I will be able to calculate the overall average I am after.

Any good suggestions?

Edit: I'm just going with 60-30-10 for now.
Edit again: Just finished mapping out everything I'd need to do to finish the probability distribution and calculate the average, and it is way too much effort. So, ignore this. I'm not going through that much trouble.

 

[AvaricePanda]

You know when people say a 0 bad stages they mean that there is no stage that he does bad on, fd may be his "worst" stage but it isn't a bad stage for him. Every other character has a stage they don't do so hot in, While mk's "worst" stage is still pretty good for him <_<.

Just got tired of seeing fd being referred so much.

MK's worst stage is FD. Okay.

Diddy's worst stage is RC. Okay. But is it a bad stage? Lol, not really. Sure, against certain match-ups like MK, but that's the same thing with Diddy vs. MK on FD. Diddy's banana game gets a boost on the ship, he has easier mobility than others across the second third of the stage and can space well with fair, and he can set up for easy kills at the top because of the walk-off, leading to a potential banana lock to death, or banana trip to dsmash/fsmash for a REALLY early kill. Just because the stage isn't flat, doesn't mean it's bad for him.

Snake's worst stage is RC. Now, I don't use Snake that often, but I realize that disappearing C4s and Claymores aren't fun on certain parts of the stage. But the insanely close blast-zones on the ship and the low-ceiling at the top is pretty good for Snake, I would assume. And his nade game is only harshly killed for a third of the two minute cycle.

Wario doesn't have bad stages.

As I've argued a lot of times, quite a bit of characters don't have bad stages, just stages where they do worse at.

And @Falcon, I lol'd.

 

[Player-1]

First point is true, although to a very slight extent (and it's also not the sole reason for people leaving, it's that plus other things, usually). Second and third points are guesses and hyperboles. You can't say that those are undeniable.

The metagame isn't stagnating, nor do I see how it will stagnate. How exactly would this happen? The meta-game can't possibly stagnate unless literally every single person switches to MK, which is not ever going to happen. And you can say anything that you can about the future, but you really can't predict the future. You can't say, "The metagame will be revolved around MK in the future, therefore we should ban him in the present."

Just no.






Yes, because everyone who's against your opinion is only against your opinion for some twisted reason.

-facepalm-

A lot of anti-banners, including me, OLOL DON'T MAIN METAKNIGHT. They find that he isn't broken for good reasons. Others find that he is broken, for good reasons. People that main MK don't only want him not banned because they want to earn money. M2K has said himself that MK is just really fun for him, and saying that he, along with any other MK mainer, only doesn't want them banned because they'll stop making money is just inane (plus, a player of his caliber will just **** with another character with D3, so there goes that argument). And not every MK main doesn't want him banned. OS wants MK banned and mains MK.

Don't stereotype and lump people into bad groups because you fail to see beyond your own opinion. It makes most of the points you've brought up seem immature and invalid, and I honestly had a lot more respect for your argument until you said this. Plus, reasons for wanting MK banned have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with the fact if he's broken or not. I could just as easily say, "Some pro-banners only want him banned because their character is bad at the match-up,", but that ultimately doesn't matter when it comes to the actual character being banned, now does it? It would just make me look like an idiot.

Very true, I'd just like to add on to this:

MK IS broken. He's the most broken character we've seen yet...but is he to the point of banning? No not quite. By your logic we should ban ALL the broken characters because...they're broken, which is phail.

Then you go and talk about how much fame they get? Lol, what fame? From what you're saying about them it sounds like you and all the pro-banners it's more like they're infamous. People like you give the pro-banners a bad name, they make very good points in their argument, and it's really just an opinion based argument where both sides are pretty much equal in the facts that they provide their reason for/for not banning MK.

I'm anti-ban btw.

Edit: Avarice...Rainbow cruise is Diddy's best stage wut u talkn' bout?

 

[Deathcarter]

AvaricePanda and anybody else that wants to answer this question:

Will all of the good characters (moveset wise, not in relation to the rest of the cast) improve in their non-impossible matchups against the top tiers and generally bridge the gap between the 4 or something different classes of character potential immediately under MK as their metagames grow due to them being relatively untapped and having options to lead to different, similarly effective playstyles to deal with multiple opponents? Or will Meta Knight, due to his sheer amount of options in his moveset that keep him safe while on either offense or defense, eclipsing those of the rest of the cast, continue to simply increase the gap between him and all of the other good characters? Make your best educated guesses. If it is the former, than there is no reason for MK to be banned.

 

[Dins_Fire]

Well MK is a really good character, but it's down to the player, isn't it?

Just find a way around his moves, hope they don't down dodge then down smash all the time (like I do) and if you can't beat them... join them! (use MK on MK).

 

[XienZo]

Well MK is a really good character, but it's down to the player, isn't it?

Just find a way around his moves, hope they don't down dodge then down smash all the time (like I do) and if you can't beat them... join them! (use MK on MK).

The former is easier done than said, and the latter is the root of all our problems.

 

[IxxI]

Don't listen to me.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Well MK is a really good character, but it's down to the player, isn't it?

and if you can't beat them... join them! (use MK on MK).

THIS is why MK is going to be banned if he does, since if people take this advice after losing too much, then that means the MK disease spreads. Lucky for me I've got so much MK match up experience that I can pretty much 2 stock my local MKs as Wario, sometimes 3 stock or air camp from a waft kill. Course thats just me.

Really, the more MKs, the more this'll come up. If you didn't have to be exceptionally skilled or be MK to beat MK, then we wouldn't be here right now. Course, IMO, it takes LESS skill to play MK at a high level compared to Wario, which can be another argument.

 

[aeghrur]

Wait, is it even possible to ban MK now?
Because banning him could stagnate the metagame much more than allowing him to continue his alleged dominance.
Some of the best players main MK now, and a lot of the community does as well. If we lose all those people, we could lose the top level players along with much of the community, making tournaments smaller, brawl less competitive, less good players so slower evolution of metagame, etc.
Also, do consider that even before, on the FIRST thread of MK ban, people were complaining about all the time they put into him. That argument will only be stronger now. Do they really deserve to have their hard work taken away? I mean, Dojo and M2K have spent quite some time on this character, so I doubt MK mains will really allow use to just ban him. =/
Now, while I am for the ban, I really do wonder if we can do it anymore.

 

[CR4SH]

Wait, is it even possible to ban MK now?
Because banning him could stagnate the metagame much more than allowing him to continue his alleged dominance.
Some of the best players main MK now, and a lot of the community does as well. If we lose all those people, we could lose the top level players along with much of the community, making tournaments smaller, brawl less competitive, less good players so slower evolution of metagame, etc.
Also, do consider that even before, on the FIRST thread of MK ban, people were complaining about all the time they put into him. That argument will only be stronger now. Do they really deserve to have their hard work taken away? I mean, Dojo and M2K have spent quite some time on this character, so I doubt MK mains will really allow use to just ban him. =/
Now, while I am for the ban, I really do wonder if we can do it anymore.

Thats a really poor argument that relies on a very false assumption. The assumption being that high level MK mains would quit the game en-masse if MK were banned. No.

On another note. "It's not fair to mk mains!". No.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lucario's matchup with Dedede is horrible, though, and yea, what Meep said, too. Lee Martin also is one of the better MKs out there. He only went MK in that match, too.

I'm trying to see this horrible match-up, Lee lost to Co18 with him at mid percentage, that's not bad at all.

 

[aeghrur]

Thats a really poor argument that relies on a very false assumption. The assumption being that high level MK mains would quit the game en-masse if MK were banned. No.

On another note. "It's not fair to mk mains!". No.

It's stating a possibility. It could very well happen.
The fair to MK mains thing, yeah... that's going to happen.
Are you really telling me MKs will suddenly just go, "meh, sure, ban my character that I've spent time on. I mean, it's totally fair."???
Hell no. They talked about this before. Now, they've spent more time, so it's even LESS fair.

 

[Frio]

If MK will ever get banned it won't be done in a day or ever a month. It will require slow agreement among tournaments around the world until he's fully banned. And that is the key problem, everyone will never agree with each other. And since some people won't ban him the chances are other people will also not ban him due to the requirement of Vsing MK experince. So basicly we'd end up with Mk not being banned with the exceptions of a few tournaments.

 

[thrillagorilla]

It's stating a possibility. It could very well happen.
The fair to MK mains thing, yeah... that's going to happen.
Are you really telling me MKs will suddenly just go, "meh, sure, ban my character that I've spent time on. I mean, it's totally fair."???
Hell no. They talked about this before. Now, they've spent more time, so it's even LESS fair.

How is it fair to all the non-meta mains that have been scrambling to find a secondary that can compete with Meta? This argument holds no ground for the pro-banners or the anti-banners.

A quick question, then I'm done. What happened to the idea of UU tourneys? They don't have to detract from the main tourneys. They could even be put on at the same time if enough people were willing to help organize (I'd be happy to myself, but the tourney scene isn't rampant around Oregon). It would keep mk in major tourney play and give a place for the lower-tier characters to go if they so choose. It doesn't have to be for scrubs, either. The counter-pick system has a bigger impact on the lower tiers in general, so the strategy and difficulty could be even higher at these types of events. If this has already been discussed, would someone re-post the discussion pages so I could read? Thanks in advance and sorry if I'm re-treading on old ground.

 

[Kinzer]

Because anybody who isn't whorring themselves out to Meta Knight should be acknowledgable that they are scrubbing themselves out of easier tourney victories.

Most of them who love to just have fun and play the game don't care, and a majority of them still are pretty good with their non-MK characters.

 

[bigman40]

****. I guess that I'm a scrub since I don't main MK then. *Starts to learn MK so he's no longer a scrub* Anyone know a good MK tutorial so I can get good quick? xD

 

[Kinzer]

I know the best MK tutorial ever.

Even M2K picked up a thing from this guide, seriously:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50S5pS0Frbs

 

[thrillagorilla]

Because anybody who isn't whorring themselves out to Meta Knight should be acknowledgable that they are scrubbing themselves out of easier tourney victories.

Most of them who love to just have fun and play the game don't care, and a majority of them still are pretty good with their non-MK characters.

The regular tourneys would still go on as usual. The existence of a low-tier tourney doesn't mean that people couldn't use their low tier characters in regular tourney play. Also, if people are getting beat because they aren't any good at the game, they'll simply be beat by a new face rather than the hoards of mks. At the very least, its arguably a lot easier to take.

I guess what I am trying to ask is if the community would benefit from something new. The idea doesn't directly fix the mk problem, but it would give an outlet to people who are just flat out tired of mk and other high tier characters. It would also allow for a meta-game to develop alongside the primary meta-game that had a bit more diversity in it, solving that problem. If people wouldn't be interested in going, then yeah its pointless. If they were, we could bring something completely new to the community. If something like this existed, then the true arguments for banning mk (rather than a need for diversity and not wanting to deal with him) might actually come to the fore-front, if they even exist.



@bigman: lol.

@ Kinzer: Thanks, I've been looking all over for that vid! Lots 'o lols...

 

[Red Arremer]

lol, Kinzer.

Funny thing, though, is that M2K hardly uses the nado.

 

[Kinzer]

I still don't understand where you're trying to ask.

People getting beat is a player thing, you can still suck with MK (lolwut?) and get tossed aside by somebody who has enough knowledge and skill to outclass. MK is arguably unbeatable but the player playing him can certainly be done.

If you're saying that people should stay low tiers more often, then unfortunately your efforts are in vien, because in a competitive environment, it's more about the money than the community. People want to win, and they will do it the way they can, by maximizing their chances of winning; To do that of course they main/CP MK. The only way the metagame can turn by this point (the game stays alive) is if people find ways to counter Meta Knight or he gets banned. People would rather take the easy way out and just let other people do the work for them (I.E. since so many top players use MK, his metagame has advanced far enough to have advanced him this far, although arguably stagnant right now it has made him quetionably unbeatable. Anyway clearly the work has been done for them and since it's there for them to see how to do it too, they would rather just copy & paste their stratigies and win instead of doing work.). Eventually if the metagame of other characters doesn't evolve, even if MK isn't banned people will grow bored of this game (even moreso for some people) and leave the community, leaving it to rot.

Choknater was right when he/(she?) said that in order to surpass, you must come up with your own things, alas people would rather not go through the trouble of risking losing even when they have a clear example of another character's metagame unleashed when you look at it.

Frankly I want Meta Knight to stay in, he weeds out some of the other top/high tiers that would otherwise be dominating, and making the low tiers even more tourney unviable. Don't get me wrong, This isn't just Sonic I'm referring to, but could you expect how hard of a hit people would take of D3 was suddenly allowed more freedom to roam the tourney scene? Without the infinites banned it's going to make them absolutely unplayable. So if MK does get banned we'll probably only have a select few more characters getting tourney wins, but at the cost of making people even more lazy and just losing faith in the few tourney viable mid-low tiers altogether?

I know I'm going to be coming off like a jerk but you want something like this go look at Melee, nobody bothers to play anybody who isn't in the top-10 (I think this would be below Peach/ICs/Jiggly/Falcon or something, right?), and even fewer people branch outside the top 4 characters. You may not think it as so but Meta Knight (ATM) keeps people driving to try harder to see if they can counter him and have a much much easier time reaping tourney victories and actually trying to get somewhere. I just hope this game has enough depth to allow such an accomplishment where we don't have to resort to getting rid of one character so we can sacrifice others for just a little bit more variety, which I think some pro-ban people want it in the wrong ways.

If I've said it once I'll say it again, MK is stupid good, but he benefits and hurts the community, like many other things in life with side-effects/drawbacks, I find it that for now his good things outweight throwing him out the door. (Certainly I think for example some Bowsers wouldn't mind seeing more of a MU where they are at worst 65/35 compared to an unwinaable 80/20)

Your welcome.

@Spadefox - The cake like your post is a lie!

 

[thrillagorilla]

I still don't understand where you're trying to ask.

People getting beat is a player thing, you can still suck with MK (lolwut?) and get tossed aside by somebody who has enough knowledge and skill to outclass. MK is arguably unbeatable but the player playing him can certainly be done.

If you're saying that people should stay low tiers more often, then unfortunately your efforts are in vien, because in a competitive environment, it's more about the money than the community. People want to win, and they will do it the way they can, by maximizing their chances of winning; To do that of course they main/CP MK. The only way the metagame can turn by this point (the game stays alive) is if people find ways to counter Meta Knight or he gets banned. People would rather take the easy way out and just let other people do the work for them (I.E. since so many top players use MK, his metagame has advanced far enough to have advanced him this far, although arguably stagnant right now it has made him quetionably unbeatable. Anyway clearly the work has been done for them and since it's there for them to see how to do it too, they would rather just copy & paste their stratigies and win instead of doing work.). Eventually if the metagame of other characters doesn't evolve, even if MK isn't banned people will grow bored of this game (even moreso for some people) and leave the community, leaving it to rot.

Choknater was right when he/(she?) said that in order to surpass, you must come up with your own things, alas people would rather not go through the trouble of risking losing even when they have a clear example of another character's metagame unleashed when you look at it.

Frankly I want Meta Knight to stay in, he weeds out some of the other top/high tiers that would otherwise be dominating, and making the low tiers even more tourney unviable. Don't get me wrong, This isn't just Sonic I'm referring to, but could you expect how hard of a hit people would take of D3 was suddenly allowed more freedom to roam the tourney scene? Without the infinites banned it's going to make them absolutely unplayable. So if MK does get banned we'll probably only have a select few more characters getting tourney wins, but at the cost of making people even more lazy and just losing faith in the few tourney viable mid-low tiers altogether?

I know I'm going to be coming off like a jerk but you want something like this go look at Melee, nobody bothers to play anybody who isn't in the top-10 (I think this would be below Peach/ICs/Jiggly/Falcon or something, right?), and even fewer people branch outside the top 4 characters. You may not think it as so but Meta Knight (ATM) keeps people driving to try harder to see if they can counter him and have a much much easier time reaping tourney victories and actually trying to get somewhere. I just hope this game has enough depth to allow such an accomplishment where we don't have to resort to getting rid of one character so we can sacrifice others for just a little bit more variety, which I think some pro-ban people want it in the wrong ways.

If I've said it once I'll say it again, MK is stupid good, but he benefits and hurts the community, like many other things in life with side-effects/drawbacks, I find it that for now his good things outweight throwing him out the door. (Certainly I think for example some Bowsers wouldn't mind seeing more of a MU where they are at worst 65/35 compared to an unwinaable 80/20)

Your welcome.

@Spadefox - The cake like your post is a lie!

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm proposing the idea (or simply re-stating, I think someone beat me to it a while ago) of creating a completely different competitive community that would go hand in hand with the current one. The regular tournaments wouldn't change at all. Instead, there would be separate tourneys held that would focus on the lower tiers (c-tier and lower only, or something like that), kind of like pokemon UU tourneys. The idea is to give people who don't want to have to deal with the likes of MK, DDD and Snake a place to compete (for money, obviously). This would eliminate some of the more arbitrary reasons for the mk ban, like "over-centralization" because a competitive community would/could already be in existence without him. If mk still needed to be banned for other reasons, it would be more obvious due to the lack of "scrub" arguments (or at least the arguments would be proven much more arbitrary if they were still used).

Sorry if I'm still not being clear. I'm just currious what people think.

On a personal note, I'm against bans in general. If proven to be truly needed (aka no alternatives) than I'll be OK with one, though. I'm going to hold off on voting for now. I'm curious what will happen after genesis and if it will have any effect on the current arguments.

Edit: Before I get in trouble for this... I understand there is more to the over-centralization argument than simply "I don't want to deal with him." I was only meaning that aspect of the argument, and I should have simply stated as such. Please be forgiving, its 2 am where I'm at and I'm tired.

 

[Yanoss1313]

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm proposing the idea (or simply re-stating, I think someone beat me to it a while ago) of creating a completely different competitive community that would go hand in hand with the current one. The regular tournaments wouldn't change at all. Instead, there would be separate tourneys held that would focus on the lower tiers (c-tier and lower only, or something like that), kind of like pokemon UU tourneys. The idea is to give people who don't want to have to deal with the likes of MK, DDD and Snake a place to compete (for money, obviously). This would eliminate some of the more arbitrary reasons for the mk ban, like "over-centralization" because a competitive community would/could already be in existence without him. If mk still needed to be banned for other reasons, it would be more obvious due to the lack of "scrub" arguments (or at least the arguments would be proven much more arbitrary if they were still used).

Sorry if I'm still not being clear. I'm just currious what people think.

On a personal note, I'm against bans in general. If proven to be truly needed (aka no alternatives) than I'll be OK with one, though. I'm going to hold off on voting for now. I'm curious what will happen after genesis and if it will have any effect on the current arguments.

Edit: Before I get in trouble for this... I understand there is more to the over-centralization argument than simply "I don't want to deal with him." I was only meaning that aspect of the argument, and I should have simply stated as such. Please be forgiving, its 2 am where I'm at and I'm tired.

thats not a bad idea, a few of the local Melbourne tourneys actualy run a low tier event along side the main tourney, they seem to turn out quite well, i there's are currantly E tier and lower, but same general idea

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Hmm... For some reason I can't get past page 187 on this thread. I click on the 188 and it just puts me back at 187...

 

[Yanoss1313]

Hmm... For some reason I can't get past page 187 on this thread. I click on the 188 and it just puts me back at 187...

yeah, for some reason it seems to be displaying 2 pages further than there really is. whats up with that? maybe because i use firefox? what browser are you using?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

It's prolly DB issues... >.< I also notice that with every new post, the page has to reload, as opposed to normal AJAX...

 

[Red Arremer]

@thrillagorilla:
That concept isn't new. It's called Low Tier Tournament.

The problem is, if you include Mid Tiers, then the likes of Peach, Luigi or Toon Link will dominate.

 

[bobson]

The page issues are because a ton of posts containing secret insiders-only SBR info were deleted.

Also real men use 40-posts-per-page.

 

[C~Dog]

thats not a bad idea, a few of the local Melbourne tourneys actualy run a low tier event along side the main tourney, they seem to turn out quite well, i there's are currantly E tier and lower, but same general idea

The flaw in this though, as Spadefox said, is that because "low tier" consists of the bottom half of the tier list, there are still the higher characters that will dominate. I am in favour of splitting the list into at least three groups as opposed to two, to have a more concentrated pool of characters with a smaller skill distribution. I was thinking having only the bottom two or three tiers included in the low tier tourney, to actually give those characters some use.

 

[Yanoss1313]

The flaw in this though, as Spadefox said, is that because "low tier" consists of the bottom half of the tier list, there are still the higher characters that will dominate. I am in favour of splitting the list into at least three groups as opposed to two, to have a more concentrated pool of characters with a smaller skill distribution. I was thinking having only the bottom two or three tiers included in the low tier tourney, to actually give those characters some use.

correct me if i'm wrong, but E tier and lower kinda IS the bottom 3

 

[CRASHiC]

Frankly I want Meta Knight to stay in, he weeds out some of the other top/high tiers that would otherwise be dominating, and making the low tiers even more tourney unviable. Don't get me wrong, This isn't just Sonic I'm referring to, but could you expect how hard of a hit people would take of D3 was suddenly allowed more freedom to roam the tourney scene? Without the infinities banned it's going to make them absolutely unplayable. So if MK does get banned we'll probably only have a select few more characters getting tourney wins, but at the cost of making people even more lazy and just losing faith in the few tourney viable mid-low tiers altogether?

Not true.
In reality, this would only effect four characters drastically: Bowser, Donkey Kong, Wolf, and Ganondorf.
The small step chain grab does not work on Wario because, well, he's Wario. The opportunity to grab him simply does not exist.
There is no infinite on Samus, Luigi, or any others of the odd infinite until they are in our kill range, and at this point, we'd much rather take a stock.

As for other lower characters. These are the match ups as we see them.
ZSS: EVEN - 45:55
Peach: EVEN - 50:50
Fox: EVEN - 50:50
Toon Link: EVEN - 55:45
Pit: EVEN - 55:45
Yoshi: EVEN - 55:45
Jigglypuff: EVEN- 55:45

King Dededee has the weird state of being able to **** Snake and Lucario, hang tin with Metaknight and Diddy Kong, but having trouble with some characters most other characters ****.

and I can't tell you about Snake because they haven't done squat over there with their matchups.

 

[Red Arremer]

correct me if i'm wrong, but E tier and lower kinda IS the bottom 3

Yes. But E Tier is pretty much still Mid Tier. The lower half of it, though.

F and below is Low.

 

[Yanoss1313]

Yes. But E Tier is pretty much still Mid Tier. The lower half of it, though.

F and below is Low.

actually, yeah, i really agree with you there, example, fox being in E

 

[|RK|]

Not true.
In reality, this would only effect four characters drastically: Bowser, Donkey Kong, Wolf, and Ganondorf.
The small step chain grab does not work on Wario because, well, he's Wario. The opportunity to grab him simply does not exist.
There is no infinite on Samus, Luigi, or any others of the odd infinite until they are in our kill range, and at this point, we'd much rather take a stock.

As for other lower characters. These are the match ups as we see them.
ZSS: EVEN - 45:55
Peach: EVEN - 50:50
Fox: EVEN - 50:50
Toon Link: EVEN - 55:45
Pit: EVEN - 55:45
Yoshi: EVEN - 55:45
Jigglypuff: EVEN- 55:45

King Dededee has the weird state of being able to **** Snake and Lucario, hang tin with Metaknight and Diddy Kong, but having trouble with some characters most other characters ****.

and I can't tell you about Snake because they haven't done squat over there with their matchups.

See, like I said, most boards see 45:55 as even. This is also why I propose we use better numbers, because the matchup numeral system is disagreeable and is also a source of the community rift.

Also, sorry Player-1, I just showed the post that made me believe that Diddy vs MK isn't in Diddy's favor. Then again, you could say the same for a Wario main after they used to be a dedicated MK main, as the matchup is the closest to even already...

 

[XienZo]

See, like I said, most boards see 45:55 as even. This is also why I propose we use better numbers, because the matchup numeral system is disagreeable and is also a source of the community rift.

But 45:55 means I win 9 matches and you win 11, so that basically IS even since there are a LOT of other factors besides matchup that could change the outcome of one out of twenty battles.