Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[|RK|]

But 45:55 means I win 9 matches and you win 11, so that basically IS even since there are a LOT of other factors besides matchup that could change the outcome of one out of twenty battles.

Exactly. I mean, matchup numbers themselves are stupid because of that ratio there. These numbers should NOT mean I win 9, you win 11. They should say, "I play an almost even matchup well, and I can win more than 9 out of every 20 matches." But see, with Wario being CLOSER than 45:55. that DOES make him a counterpick, or the best character that isn't a mirro at countering another character.

 

[Suspect]

The page issues are because a ton of posts containing secret insiders-only SBR info were deleted.

ha i was thinking the same thing

 

[yummynbeefy]

he needs a ban if you ask me im for it but i know it probably wont happen

 

[Darxmarth23]

Well, we need a change.

 

[SOVAman]

I hate mk taking all our tourneys top 10 spots

 

[Red Arremer]

I hate mk taking all our tourneys top 10 spots

I hate Fox taking Top 10 spots in all Melee tourneys.
I hate Sagat taking Top 10 spots in all SF4 tourneys.
I hate Suika taking Top 10 spots in all Immaterial and Missing Power tourneys.

 

[SOVAman]

50% is half so that means at least half of the community wants him banned

 

[sasook]

After seeing the results of WHOBO, where just about everyone in the top 10 except CO18 I think used MK, I'm gonna put my vote to ban him.

 

[Pho]

Not true.
In reality, this would only effect four characters drastically: Bowser, Donkey Kong, Wolf, and Ganondorf.
The small step chain grab does not work on Wario because, well, he's Wario. The opportunity to grab him simply does not exist.
There is no infinite on Samus, Luigi, or any others of the odd infinite until they are in our kill range, and at this point, we'd much rather take a stock.

As for other lower characters. These are the match ups as we see them.
ZSS: EVEN - 45:55
Peach: EVEN - 50:50
Fox: EVEN - 50:50
Toon Link: EVEN - 55:45
Pit: EVEN - 55:45
Yoshi: EVEN - 55:45
Jigglypuff: EVEN- 55:45

King Dededee has the weird state of being able to **** Snake and Lucario, hang tin with Metaknight and Diddy Kong, but having trouble with some characters most other characters ****.

and I can't tell you about Snake because they haven't done squat over there with their matchups.

You clearly don't use Toon Link if you honestly think it's 55:45. At the least, it's 60:40, or higher.

 

[Red Arremer]

After seeing the results of WHOBO, where just about everyone in the top 10 except CO18 I think used MK, I'm gonna put my vote to ban him.

WHOBO, a tournament where pretty much the best MKs of the USA were, but almost no players of other characters. WHOBO, a tournament full with Top MK players, but no MK "slayers".

 

[salaboB]

I hate Fox taking Top 10 spots in all Melee tourneys.
I hate Sagat taking Top 10 spots in all SF4 tourneys.
I hate Suika taking Top 10 spots in all Immaterial and Missing Power tourneys.

Just because the other communities all have it wrong doesn't mean Brawl's has to, as well.

I just heard that SF4 HDR has banned Akuma, even though Sirlin was the lead designer and Akuma was supposed to be "fair" (Or at least tournie-playable). So I'd say that they just banned someone who could be "beaten" just like MK can be beaten, which shows what...that it's not always a last resort? (Assuming what I heard is true) I'll have to look around and see if I can verify it.

 

[Red Arremer]

Of course, we'd be "right" if we banned Meta Knight. Because if MK is gone, suddenly, noone will use the Top/High Tier characters anymore.

<_<

 

[CRASHiC]

Of course, we'd be "right" if we banned Meta Knight. Because if MK is gone, suddenly, noone will use the Top/High Tier characters anymore.

<_<

We don't aim for low tier placement.
We let Reflexwonder do that.
What we want is more tourney diversity.
And when you study match up numbers, you see that with MK gone, their is no outstanding best character, and more of less a vastly complicated CP system.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Guys, go to sky's WHOBO topic, ok? Any argument that was a legit tourney showing off how broken MK is got ***** ludicrously hard, STOP ****ING REFERRING TO IT.

 

[Red Arremer]

@Crashic:
Marth. Wario.

Edit:
Also, I repeat:
VARIETY IS NOT A VALID ARGUMENT FOR A BAN

 

[C.box]

MK's worst stage is FD. Okay.

Diddy's worst stage is RC. Okay. But is it a bad stage? Lol, not really. Sure, against certain match-ups like MK, but that's the same thing with Diddy vs. MK on FD. Diddy's banana game gets a boost on the ship, he has easier mobility than others across the second third of the stage and can space well with fair, and he can set up for easy kills at the top because of the walk-off, leading to a potential banana lock to death, or banana trip to dsmash/fsmash for a REALLY early kill. Just because the stage isn't flat, doesn't mean it's bad for him.

Snake's worst stage is RC. Now, I don't use Snake that often, but I realize that disappearing C4s and Claymores aren't fun on certain parts of the stage. But the insanely close blast-zones on the ship and the low-ceiling at the top is pretty good for Snake, I would assume. And his nade game is only harshly killed for a third of the two minute cycle.

Wario doesn't have bad stages.

As I've argued a lot of times, quite a bit of characters don't have bad stages, just stages where they do worse at.

And @Falcon, I lol'd.

So beacuse they can kill earlier it isn't bad? Banana control on RC is almost impossible since the stage keeps moving and with multiple levels to jump around in opponents can avoid the nanerz easier then on any other stage. Snake on RC... lol? So much for nade camping huh? C4 and mine use is screwed for most of the level and snakes already extremly gimpable recovery is now going to be used alot more due to how rc moves around putting him over and over in a horrible situation

Wario on luigi's isn't supposed to be a good idea.

And every one of them has a counterpick, mk doesn't <_<.

 

[bobson]

VARIETY IS NOT A VALID ARGUMENT FOR A BAN

So Akuma shouldn't've been banned?

 

[salaboB]

Edit:
Also, I repeat:
VARIETY IS NOT A VALID ARGUMENT FOR A BAN

It can be part of one, though.

Of course, we'd be "right" if we banned Meta Knight. Because if MK is gone, suddenly, noone will use the Top/High Tier characters anymore.

<_<

I'm assuming this is in a response to me saying the other communities had it "wrong", and I'd really appreciate if you wouldn't put words into my mouth: I don't believe "right" means nobody using top/high tier characters, I never once have said that was the goal, and I was simply pointing out that having one absolute dominant character in other games does not mean Brawl must have it too.

 

[Red Arremer]

So Akuma shouldn't've been banned?

I don't know about SF4 Akuma, because I never played the game.

I, though, do know about SF2 (blahblah version) Akuma - if you mean that one. That character is broken. There is no character who can beat Akuma. Ever. The matchups must be all like 70:30 in his favor. There's a difference between a gamebreaking part of a game (may it be a character or a glitch or anything else), and an extremely good character.

I have posted this like 9001 times into this thread:
Meta Knight is only countering one Top/High Tier character: Marth

Every other character is only slightly advantageous to even.

 

[salaboB]

I, though, do know about SF2 (blahblah version) Akuma - if you mean that one. That character is broken. There is no character who can beat Akuma. Ever. The matchups must be all like 70:30 in his favor. There's a difference between a gamebreaking part of a game (may it be a character or a glitch or anything else), and an extremely good character.

Why?

All it means is there's no variety if Akuma is allowed. And oh look:

Edit:
Also, I repeat:
VARIETY IS NOT A VALID ARGUMENT FOR A BAN

Crying shame that variety isn't valid, Akuma should be unbanned.

 

[C.box]

I don't know about SF4 Akuma, because I never played the game.

I, though, do know about SF2 (blahblah version) Akuma - if you mean that one. That character is broken. There is no character who can beat Akuma. Ever. The matchups must be all like 70:30 in his favor. There's a difference between a gamebreaking part of a game (may it be a character or a glitch or anything else), and an extremely good character.

I have posted this like 9001 times into this thread:
Meta Knight is only countering one Top/High Tier character: Marth

Every other character is only slightly advantageous to even.

Only diddy falco wario and snake are "even" snake is pretty much proven to not be even and le thien himself said diddy is disadvantaged everyone else LOSES to mk by 60:40 or more this includes marth, ddd, gaw, rob, zss, oli, lucario, pika, etc etc

 

[1048576]

Overcentralization is certainly a valid abn criteria.

 

[Red Arremer]

Why?

All it means is there's no variety if Akuma is allowed. And oh look:

Crying shame that variety isn't valid, Akuma should be unbanned.

Oh, I didn't know everyone plays MK. I thought there still were other characters winning besides Meta Knight. I guess I was wrong. Maybe I should start picking up Meta Knight, too, since every other player in the world plays him.

 

[salaboB]

Oh, I didn't know everyone plays MK. I thought there still were other characters winning besides Meta Knight. I guess I was wrong. Maybe I should start picking up Meta Knight, too, since every other player in the world plays him.

Why are you dragging everything I say to absolutes? You can have lack of variety without everyone playing the one character, it's just not as extreme as the Akuma example I was using to rebut your statement that variety wasn't a valid argument.

 

[PikaPika!]

Maybe I should start picking up Meta Knight, too, since every other player in the world plays him.

It took you this long to realize that?

 

[CRASHiC]

@Crashic:
Marth. Wario.

Edit:
Also, I repeat:
VARIETY IS NOT A VALID ARGUMENT FOR A BAN

Marth is countered by Dedede and Snake.
Wario has no match up thread.

Variety might no be. But community health is.

 

[Red Arremer]

Yes, but I repeat: Akuma breaks his game, he wasn't designed to be beaten.
Meta Knight may be overpowered, but he certainly isn't so broken to the degree where he is ban-worthy.

Good characters always will dominate. I have no idea what the issue is. Sheik was dominating Melee for years, yet she wasn't banned at all. Yun was dominating Street Fighter 3 for years, yet noone banned him.

And guess what? With some time, there rised some other characters to become better.

Again to take Melee as an example: Sheik was thought to be pretty much invincible, the best character in the game, not able to be beaten. But it happened that Fox, Falco and Marth rised, and pushed Sheik down. Wow, magic?

It took you this long to realize that?

I didn't know Reflex, Snakeee, Atomsk, Fiction, Sky', Hylian, etc. play Meta Knight. Good to know, thanks for the info.

 

[salaboB]

Yes, but I repeat: Akuma breaks his game, he wasn't designed to be beaten.
Meta Knight may be overpowered, but he certainly isn't so broken to the degree where he is ban-worthy.

Akuma in SF2 Turbo HDR was designed to be beaten, but he just got banned. (I just found an article about it so I'm pretty sure it actually happened) Game designers make mistakes, and it doesn't require overwhelming dominance to have a character be bad for a game.

And I'd point out that MK wasn't necessarily "designed to be beaten" either - Brawl was designed to not be a tournament game. I don't believe you can mention "design" in a ban discussion on either side.

All your examples of other communities letting one character maul their tournament scenes for so long only prove you're a traditionalist - "That's how it's always been, let's keep it that way." There is no point in keeping things the way they've been just so you don't have to deal with change (Just like there's no point in changing just to change something. But there is a point to this change, it's been gone over many times.)

 

[Kief]

i voted yes, but i think snake is more 'broken' than mk.

idk, its just unfortunate how unbalanced this game is.

 

[salaboB]

Per a discussion about Akuma being banned (News post it's a comment on can be found here):
"Professionals have decided Akumas tactics have only one "easy" counter (there are counters that require you being 10 times more skilled). That counter is Akuma. Since people didn't feel like playing Super Akuma fighter HD Remix: now with more Akuma. They picked the option with variety."

So...um...yeah. I'm tired of hearing people say that other games don't ban anyone unless they have "no" counter, because that's no longer true. So let's not hear it anymore, k?

 

[CRASHiC]

Akuma in SF2 Turbo HDR was designed to be beaten, but he just got banned. (I just found an article about it so I'm pretty sure it actually happened) Game designers make mistakes, and it doesn't require overwhelming dominance to have a character be bad for a game.

And I'd point out that MK wasn't necessarily "designed to be beaten" either - Brawl was designed to not be a tournament game. I don't believe you can mention "design" in a ban discussion on either side.

All your examples of other communities letting one character maul their tournament scenes for so long only prove you're a traditionalist - "That's how it's always been, let's keep it that way." There is no point in keeping things the way they've been just so you don't have to deal with change (Just like there's no point in changing just to change something. But there is a point to this change, it's been gone over many times.)

Their is no evidence on what Brawl's purpose is, and using the assumption that Smash was not made to be competitive is not a valid argument. Look at Snake, who was clearly designed to be a zoning beast, GnW as a class cannon, Dededee as a defensive player with a great grab game, Marth was designed for spacing, Falco for aerial control and zoning, and Diddy Kong for gimping.

i voted yes, but i think snake is more 'broken' than mk.

idk, its just unfortunate how unbalanced this game is.

Snake is not broken, Snake has counters. Snake has bad match ups.

 

[Red Arremer]

I'm not a traditionalist. I just stated that it will ALWAYS be Top and High Tier characters that will place in tournaments.
Even if we banned MK, there still would be Snake, Marth, Wario, Dedede, Diddy, etc.

There would pretty much nothing change.

I don't see any reason for a ban. The dominance of MK will die down sooner or later. All I see is people giving petty arguments speaking for a ban that don't really are a good foundation to build a viewpoint on.

The main arguments of the Pro-Ban-Side:
More variety:
Yes, instead of MK we'll have more of the other High Tier characters, what a surprise.

MK breaks the CP system:
No he doesn't. While he is a safe option due to having no disadvantegous matchups, he still isn't the best option. Ever.

MK is overpowered and broken:
Snake's tilts say hi.

All tournaments have MK in their Top placings:
Well, duh. He's the best character in the game and a Top Tier character...

Low Tier characters are made unviable because of him:
LT characters are unviable in the first place.

The metagame is overcentralizing on him:
Yes, currently it is. So what? That will die down sooner or later - yes, even with out a ban.

 

[Twin_Scimitar]

@Crashic:
Marth. Wario.

Edit:
Also, I repeat:
VARIETY IS NOT A VALID ARGUMENT FOR A BAN

Marth has bad matchups with DDD and possibly snake.

Wario has bad matchups with Marth and possibly DDD.

Wario seems to be the closest you can get to a character that has no bad matchups, especially since many claim the MK matchup to be even, or close to it. However, he is only fifth in tournament "points". I see little reason to be worried about Wario, Marth, or Snake for that matter dominating tournaments. There are many excellent DDD mains in the US. and DDD does well against all of these characters. DDD has a matchup of living hell against Falco, so that keeps him in check as well.

Variety is not a valid reason for a ban. I agree with this sentiment. However there is a fine line between banning so that we can accomplish variety, and banning because there is rampant over centralization. In a fighting game like Brawl, it makes perfect sense to me to ban for this reason, especially if the grass looks ooohhhhhhh so greener on the other side of a ban. It's like Garchomp in Pokemon, everyone had to be ready to beat it, and even when they were over prepared it was still a ***** to take down. Not a perfect example, but it does have many similarities.

At this point I feel that both sides have agreed what we have (except for a few who insist that Snake is a counter *rolls eyes*). It's just that the two sides feel differently about whether or not what we have warrants a ban.

Edit: This was two pages ago, lol this thread moves too fast for me. My bad.

 

[salaboB]

I'm not a traditionalist. I just stated that it will ALWAYS be Top and High Tier characters that will place in tournaments.
Even if we banned MK, there still would be Snake, Marth, Wario, Dedede, Diddy, etc.

There would pretty much nothing change.

Um.

"Mk wins most tournaments"
"Snake, Marth, Wario, DDD, Diddy win most tournaments"

No...no change at all there.

 

[CRASHiC]

More variety:
Yes, instead of MK we'll have more of the other High Tier characters, what a surprise.

Yes, instead of having 1 character, we will see variations between 5-6 characters, all of who counter each other.

MK breaks the CP system:
No he doesn't. While he is a safe option due to having no disadvantegous matchups, he still isn't the best option. Ever.

He is the best option against himself. And is the only viable counter to himself.

MK is overpowered and broken:
Snake's tilts say hi.

Snake has tilts that can out prioritize nearly every move in the game?

All tournaments have MK in their Top placings:
Well, duh. He's the best character in the game and a Top Tier character...

Talk to Xyro

Low Tier characters are made unviable because of him:
LT characters are unviable in the first place.

Its not really low tiers people argue for.
More Olimar, Marth, Pit, and a few others that have possibilities.

The metagame is overcentralizing on him:
Yes, currently it is. So what? That will die down sooner or later - yes, even with out a ban.

You can not predict the future.

 

[C.box]

I'm not a traditionalist. I just stated that it will ALWAYS be Top and High Tier characters that will place in tournaments.
Even if we banned MK, there still would be Snake, Marth, Wario, Dedede, Diddy, etc.

There would pretty much nothing change.

I don't see any reason for a ban. The dominance of MK will die down sooner or later. All I see is people giving petty arguments speaking for a ban that don't really are a good foundation to build a viewpoint on.

The main arguments of the Pro-Ban-Side:
More variety:
Yes, instead of MK we'll have more of the other High Tier characters, what a surprise.

MK breaks the CP system:
No he doesn't. While he is a safe option due to having no disadvantegous matchups, he still isn't the best option. Ever.

MK is overpowered and broken:
Snake's tilts say hi.

All tournaments have MK in their Top placings:
Well, duh. He's the best character in the game and a Top Tier character...

Low Tier characters are made unviable because of him:
LT characters are unviable in the first place.

The metagame is overcentralizing on him:
Yes, currently it is. So what? That will die down sooner or later - yes, even with out a ban.

You say petty arguements yet all you have said is that it will die down eventually, how do you know that? More and more poepl are getting switching to mk so how is it going to die down?
Yes he does break the cp system since NO BAD MATCH UPS AND NO BAD STAGES MEANS NO CP, get it?
Yes, we will have more high tier but also more diversity IN HIGH TIER PLACEMENT instead of just who doesn't get owned by mk.
The metagame being overcentralized on him is never a thing to take lightly and again how do you know it will die down?

 

[Red Arremer]

I'm pretty sure Snake will win most tournaments if MK is gone:

2 Snake (53 top8, 38 top4, 14 top2, 27 wins) - 987.9

A Rank «Overused» 26.10%
3 King Dedede (22 top8, 17 top4, 12 top2, 5 wins) - 478.3
4 Diddy Kong (38 top8, 20 top4, 7 top2, 9 wins) - 465.2
5 Wario (27 top8, 14 top4, 15 top2, 4 wins) - 366.1

Talk to Xyro

Oh, Samus is suddenly a High Tier character? Amazing Low Tier mains are not a good argument.

You say petty arguements yet all you have said is that it will die down eventually, how do you know that? More and more poepl are getting switching to mk so how is it going to die down?

Name me one Top Player who switched from their character to Meta Knight aside from M2K (who switched before MK was considered the best) and Overswarm (who mainly did to prove a point).

Yes, we will have more high tier but also more diversity IN HIGH TIER PLACEMENT instead of just who doesn't get owned by mk.

Why is diversity such an important point? I still don't get it.

The metagame being overcentralized on him is never a thing to take lightly and again how do you know it will die down?

Because the same happened with Sheik and Yun.

 

[CRASHiC]

Snake is high right now because he is considered one of the best against Metaknight.
Without metaknight to worry about, Snake is going to have to watch out for Dededee (his worst matchup) and R.O.B his second worst matchup.

And I said talk to Xyro not because of Samus, but because Xyro is the largest tournament organizer in Texas. He deals knows just how they dominate tournaments.

And the past of other games does not represent Brawl.
Look at system wars, they thought PS3 would win because PS2 won.
Look at where Wii are now. . . . .

 

[salaboB]

I'm pretty sure Snake will win most tournaments if MK is gone:

2 Snake (53 top8, 38 top4, 14 top2, 27 wins) - 987.9

A Rank «Overused» 26.10%
3 King Dedede (22 top8, 17 top4, 12 top2, 5 wins) - 478.3
4 Diddy Kong (38 top8, 20 top4, 7 top2, 9 wins) - 465.2
5 Wario (27 top8, 14 top4, 15 top2, 4 wins) - 366.1

It's known that Snake's bad matchups are fairly well suppressed by MK (The people most effective against Snake do not go even with MK) so his tournament standings are inflated because he's a close match against MK.

The only way to know who will win most tournaments with MK gone is to try it and find out.

 

[|RK|]

So Akuma shouldn't've been banned?

Oh, look, so their reasoning wasn't variety. My argument stands because Awesome gave a stupid counter-argument anyways. Ta-da! Magic.