Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[salaboB]

Oh, look, so their reasoning wasn't variety. My argument stands because Awesome gave a stupid counter-argument anyways. Ta-da! Magic.

Could you rephrase this to make sense?

 

[Red Arremer]

Snake is high right now because he is considered one of the best against Metaknight.
Without metaknight to worry about, Snake is going to have to watch out for Dededee (his worst matchup) and R.O.B his second worst matchup.

And Dedede is placed third on that list.

And I said talk to Xyro not because of Samus, but because Xyro is the largest tournament organizer in Texas. He deals knows just how they dominate tournaments.

Ah, sorry. Well, that still doesn't change the fact that High Tier characters always will dominate tournaments.

And the past of other games does not represent Brawl.
Look at system wars, they thought PS3 would win because PS2 won.
Look at where Wii are now. . . . .

I knew the PS3 was going to lose to the Wii because of my experience and not letting me blind by reviewing sites and "Nintendo is childish"-attitude. Just saying.

Anyway, as your point, I'll take Melee because it's a Smash game too.
As the competetive Melee scene started out, Sheik dominated the tournament scene a few years long. She was told to be easy to pick up, she was thought to have no disadvantageous matchups, she was thought to be broken. If I remember correctly, people even were talking about banning Sheik. But suddenly, like magic, the metagame evolved, and out came Fox, who was the counter for Sheik. And with Fox, other High Tier characters followed.

I might remind you of the fact that Jigglypuff was considered Mid Tier extremely long, before suddenly a player named Mango came out of nowhere, ***** everyone with Jiggs - including Mew2King - and now she is in High Tier. Metagame at its finest.

 

[CRASHiC]

I'm not saying things might not change, but there is no way of knowing if, when, or how they will. And assuming that something will happen is an unknown unknown.

 

[salaboB]

Anyway, as your point, I'll take Melee because it's a Smash game too.
As the competetive Melee scene started out, Sheik dominated the tournament scene a few years long. She was told to be easy to pick up, she was thought to have no disadvantageous matchups, she was thought to be broken. If I remember correctly, people even were talking about banning Sheik. But suddenly, like magic, the metagame evolved, and out came Fox, who was the counter for Sheik. And with Fox, other High Tier characters followed.

Brawl has less technical depth than Melee, you have no basis for the assumption that magical counters will appear at this point.

 

[Red Arremer]

I'm not saying things might not change, but there is no way of knowing if, when, or how they will. And assuming that something will happen is an unknown unknown.

Yes, but there also is no way of knowing if they're not changing. Assuming nothing will change at all is just the same, only the other way around.

Brawl has less technical depth than Melee, you have no basis for the assumption that magical counters will appear at this point.

Neither had the players in Melee time.

 

[C.box]

I'm pretty sure Snake will win most tournaments if MK is gone:

2 Snake (53 top8, 38 top4, 14 top2, 27 wins) - 987.9

A Rank «Overused» 26.10%
3 King Dedede (22 top8, 17 top4, 12 top2, 5 wins) - 478.3
4 Diddy Kong (38 top8, 20 top4, 7 top2, 9 wins) - 465.2
5 Wario (27 top8, 14 top4, 15 top2, 4 wins) - 366.1



Oh, Samus is suddenly a High Tier character? Amazing Low Tier mains are not a good argument.



Name me one Top Player who switched from their character to Meta Knight aside from M2K (who switched before MK was considered the best) and Overswarm (who mainly did to prove a point).



Why is diversity such an important point? I still don't get it.



Because the same happened with Sheik and Yun.

Snakes bad match ups are beat by mk.. funny how that works huh?

Diversity is important because 5-6 characters to play as are better and more enjoyable then 1 character.

Sheik never dominated like mk does, i'm not to sure on yun but I bet it's the same.

 

[Shadow 111]

Name me one Top Player who switched from their character to Meta Knight aside from M2K (who switched before MK was considered the best) and Overswarm (who mainly did to prove a point).

A point that overswarm proved very well by losing to other characters with his "broken" character. I.E. sonic.
i'm pretty sure that makes him the worst player ever because apparently all he had to do was d tilt and he could've won. his character also can't possibly lose to any other character in the game unless the mk player sucked.

 

[Mr.-0]

MK is not broken. And for all the people that think that if he's not broken today then he will be broken tommarow beause no character's metagames are evolving but his, that's a load of BS. Other character's metagamesa are evolving too, his is just more advanced cause he's the best inj the game. And he doesn't have potential to be broken either. The A-11 had potiental to be broken. Not MK.

Yes that was random and mentioned the A-11. DEAL WITH IT! Wait, why'ed I say that?

 

[RP`]

Snakes bad match ups are beat by mk.. funny how that works huh?

Diversity is important because 5-6 characters to play as are better and more enjoyable then 1 character.

Never mind you can now consider seconding or thirding lower tiered characters to counter those 5-6 characters. It's a whole gateway of diversity.

But this thread is stupid now. Everything has been said at least 10 times over in a circular debate.

 

[Mr.-0]

Yes it has. But not the A-11 thing.

 

[Mecakoto]

MK is not broken. And for all the people that think that if he's not broken today then he will be broken tommarow beause no character's metagames are evolving but his, that's a load of BS. Other character's metagamesa are evolving too, his is just more advanced cause he's the best inj the game. And he doesn't have potential to be broken either. The A-11 had potiental to be broken. Not MK.

Yes that was random and mentioned the A-11. DEAL WITH IT! Wait, why'ed I say that?

Looked at your main character, then looked at your sig. Biased post is biased.


I've read every post since day one on this thread. Past all the pointless spam and posts like the above (for both anti and pro) I am on the fence. The best course of action, in my opinion, is waiting to see what some of the major tournaments that are coming ups' results are.

 

[|RK|]

Could you rephrase this to make sense?

You weren't here yesterday, so you wouldn't understand.

 

[|RK|]

Looked at your main character, then looked at your sig. Biased post is biased.


I've read every post since day one on this thread. Past all the pointless spam and posts like the above (for both anti and pro) I am on the fence. The best course of action, in my opinion, is waiting to see what some of the major tournaments that are coming ups' results are.

Well, glad you're waiting instead of pointlessly clamoring for a ban before any results. You're smart, and I luv you now.

 

[da K.I.D.]

And Dedede is placed third on that list.



Ah, sorry. Well, that still doesn't change the fact that High Tier characters always will dominate tournaments.



I knew the PS3 was going to lose to the Wii because of my experience and not letting me blind by reviewing sites and "Nintendo is childish"-attitude. Just saying.

Anyway, as your point, I'll take Melee because it's a Smash game too.
As the competetive Melee scene started out, Sheik dominated the tournament scene a few years long. She was told to be easy to pick up, she was thought to have no disadvantageous matchups, she was thought to be broken. If I remember correctly, people even were talking about banning Sheik. But suddenly, like magic, the metagame evolved, and out came Fox, who was the counter for Sheik. And with Fox, other High Tier characters followed.

I might remind you of the fact that Jigglypuff was considered Mid Tier extremely long, before suddenly a player named Mango came out of nowhere, ***** everyone with Jiggs - including Mew2King - and now she is in High Tier. Metagame at its finest.

You assume that this game will turn out exactly like melee did. You assume that characters metagames will advance to beat MK when the only proof you have to back such a claim is the history of a game that is only vaguely similar to Brawl.
What has changed in the top tier and the upper half of the high tier since the first tier list came out? Very little. We've known who the best characters in the game were for a very long time. Melee didnt have the best people in the game traveling cross country once a month for triple digit attendance tourneys in the first year after release. You are comparing a different game, in a different time, to what is happening here, and now.

also, 2 unrelated notes
1. if you have to put the phrase "if i recall correctly" in front of one of your points, you probably shouldnt be using it.
2. If jigglypuff, Fox and marth are the only characters that can win tournaments, that makes JP top tier, not high

A point that overswarm proved very well by losing to other characters with his "broken" character. I.E. sonic.
i'm pretty sure that makes him the worst player ever because apparently all he had to do was d tilt and he could've won. his character also can't possibly lose to any other character in the game unless the mk player sucked.

I love you.
If I didnt know better, I would have thought you were a sonic main


EDIT
@ the post of this one...
1. I cant tell which side you are on. lol
2. whats to stop people from going to genesis, realising that the top 17 is 65% MK and just saying, "lets wait for the next big one" again?

 

[bobson]

Oh, look, so their reasoning wasn't variety.

What was their reasoning, then? Because Akuma doesn't physically make the game unplayable, he's just always the best choice.

And don't say "for the good of the community," either, because the reason Akuma was bad for the community was stifling any and all variety.

 

[Mr.-0]

Looked at your main character, then looked at your sig. Biased post is biased.


I've read every post since day one on this thread. Past all the pointless spam and posts like the above (for both anti and pro) I am on the fence. The best course of action, in my opinion, is waiting to see what some of the major tournaments that are coming ups' results are.

I"m a snake main now. I leaft it up their because i'm lazy.

And how am I biased? Oh, and I ment A-11 part, not thing. ANybody besides me no what that is? ( This is the wrong site to be asking that. )

Hey RK!

 

[|RK|]

I don't know about SF4 Akuma, because I never played the game.

I, though, do know about SF2 (blahblah version) Akuma - if you mean that one. That character is broken. There is no character who can beat Akuma. Ever. The matchups must be all like 70:30 in his favor. There's a difference between a gamebreaking part of a game (may it be a character or a glitch or anything else), and an extremely good character.

I have posted this like 9001 times into this thread:
Meta Knight is only countering one Top/High Tier character: Marth

Every other character is only slightly advantageous to even.

According to this post, dear bobson. THAT is broken. Captain Falcon even has worse matchups than MK. ROB has worse matchups than MK... in fact, MK is rather even. It's always either near even, or 60:40. That is not broken. At All. So they didn't even ban Akuma for lack of diversity.

 

[Mr.-0]

Didn't they ban Akuma because you could spam a move all day and never lose? Well, never as in probably not. I don't know much about SF4.

 

[Mecakoto]

I"m a snake main now. I leaft it up their because i'm lazy.

And how am I biased? Oh, and I ment A-11 part, not thing. ANybody besides me no what that is? ( This is the wrong site to be asking that. )

Hey RK!

You refuse to look at the possibility that a character you used to main may vary well be broken OR be bad for the community. Or both.

*insert massive post supporting my claim that it is possible*

*insert massive post denouncing my claim from someone else*

*insert massive post defending my claim*

*loop*

 

[|RK|]

You mean SF2. That is what they were referring to. Oh, and yo.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Mk limits variety, Akuma destroys it. I can bring Kirby to a tourney and MK is not going to be the sole reason why I'm going to lose. If I went to a SF tourney the idea of using anyone but Akuma is ludicrous.

Get learned plz.

 

[|RK|]

^This. Very much this. Whether or not 27.whatever% of the community plays MK, there's still 72.whatever% of other characters. There's enough diversity from my standpoint. And the Akuma argument was killed.

 

[salaboB]

Yes, but there also is no way of knowing if they're not changing. Assuming nothing will change at all is just the same, only the other way around.

A ban can always be undone. Any tactic able to break MK should be obvious enough in friendlies/money matches/whatever to decide to reverse the ban.

Neither had the players in Melee time.

I was not talking about the players having less technical ability, Brawl is a less technical game - there is a lower ceiling on what technical ability can do, and less reason to expect a counter to show up because of people mastering techniques.

 

[Mr.-0]

You refuse to look at the possibility that a character you used to main may vary well be broken OR be bad for the community. Or both.

*insert massive post supporting my claim that it is possible*

*insert massive post denouncing my claim from someone else*

*insert massive post defending my claim*

*loop*

Yo RK!

And he is bad for the community. I'm just saying he's not broking. Though I do admit that he was wrong and that he is OP. But not broken.


And as long as we team up to fight them, I know we will wi- BOOM!
Yamcha dies.

Ignor that part. I'm falling in love with TFS.

 

[Mr.-0]

^This. Very much this. Whether or not 27.whatever% of the community plays MK, there's still 72.whatever% of other characters. There's enough diversity from my standpoint. And the Akuma argument was killed.

Sorry I killed it. I deserve the double posrt infractment.

 

[salaboB]

Didn't they ban Akuma because you could spam a move all day and never lose? Well, never as in probably not. I don't know much about SF4.

What does it matter what it takes to win?

The only thing banning Akuma did was to increase variety so it wasn't just Akuma Akuma Akuma winning tournaments.

Variety.

Edit: If a character took more skill than most players could manage but once you had that skill (Say the top tournament winners could reach it reasonably) was unbeatable, it would get banned because you'd play him or play nobody. So what it takes to win is irrelevent to the winning, and banning is about increasing variety to be more than just that character. The question is where that line is drawn for it to be time to ban.

 

[Darxmarth23]

The statistics of Mk winning don't add up to the tourney results.

He is sweeping tourneys far too much. It's almost like he broke a capacity limit.

 

[teekay]

Since people are blabbing about Akuma, some clarification:

Akuma is banned in SF2, not any other game. In SF2, he was intentionally designed by the developers to be WAY beyond reasonable. He never appears on the character select screen and can only be used by entering a crazy code.

To whoever said he wasn't banned for actually removing the gameplay, you're completely wrong--that's EXACTLY why he is banned. Akuma in SF2 is quite literally so good that he completely stops the other player from even playing the game. If he gets them into a certain sequence of moves there's literally nothing they can do to win the game. Imagine if DDD's infinites worked on every character, and that would be how broken Akuma is.

So stop comparing Akuma to Metaknight. I'm not saying you can't make a case for banning a character who isn't this broken (though I doubt you could make a case I'd buy, but I'm not the one you have to convince). I'm just saying... he is nothing even remotely like SF2 Akuma.

A better SF2 comparison, if you want one, is Old Sagat. This character is avoided by a lot of really good SF2 players on general principle, and it's widely acknowledged he is the best character in the game and has no bad matchups. In some areas he is "soft banned." Even Sirlin acknowledges him as being a borderline case (though not quite to the point of needing to be banned.)

And SF2 has had the longest lived, and quite possibly most developed metagame of any fighter ever... without ever banning Old Sagat. If that means anything to you.

 

[|RK|]

@Dmarth: Then we need moar Warios. I think I should pick up MK and Jigglypuff then switch to Lucario. Then I'd survive more and **** MKs.

I love you teekay.

 

[Turbo Ether]

MK's tournament results wouldn't be that much more impressive than Snakes if it wasn't for M2K.

 

[salaboB]

Since people are blabbing about Akuma, some clarification:

Akuma is banned in SF2, not any other game. In SF2, he was intentionally designed by the developers to be WAY beyond reasonable. He never appears on the character select screen and can only be used by entering a crazy code.

To whoever said he wasn't banned for actually removing the gameplay, you're completely wrong--that's EXACTLY why he is banned. Akuma in SF2 is quite literally so good that he completely stops the other player from even playing the game. If he gets them into a certain sequence of moves there's literally nothing they can do to win the game. Imagine if DDD's infinites worked on every character, and that would be how broken Akuma is.

So stop comparing him to Metaknight. I'm not saying you can't make a case for banning a character who isn't this broken (though I doubt you could make a case I'd buy, but I'm not the one you have to convince). I'm just saying... he is nothing even remotely like SF2 Akuma.

I'm sure this will get glossed over, but oh well.

Akuma in SF2 HDR was rebalanced to try to make him fair. He is "beatable" - other characters can win against him.

He also just got banned.

 

[teekay]

Akuma in SF2 HDR was rebalanced to try to make him fair. He is "beatable" - other characters can win against him.

He also just got banned.

I don't know how he was rebalanced in that game and have never played it, so I have no comment. I don't think this changes my point, though. All I was saying was that it was a terrible comparison.

 

[|RK|]

@salaBob: Uh-huh... I personally don't find why we care. Stop using others' arguments. We are a different community. Your posts seem ignorant. Cut that out.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Akuma in SF2 HDR was rebalanced to try to make him fair. He is "beatable" - other characters can win against him.

He also just got banned.

I'm gonna wait for someone who actually plays that game to get on comment on that, because he's still pretty freaking broken in that game. Much more so than MK.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Street Fighter community are obviously scrubs.

 

[Mr.-0]

Isnt' that why they made AiF?

 

[BentoBox]

And of course, the Smash community has always been the most respected of them all :D

 

[Mr.-0]

YEs, we are.

 

[teekay]

Street Fighter community are obviously scrubs.

It IS pretty funny that Evo banned him without extensive testing, but we apparently are all scrubs for doing the same with items.

 

[bobson]

According to this post, dear bobson. THAT is broken. Captain Falcon even has worse matchups than MK. ROB has worse matchups than MK... in fact, MK is rather even. It's always either near even, or 60:40. That is not broken. At All. So they didn't even ban Akuma for lack of diversity.

Let me try to break it down for you.

Akuma was banned because he was broken.
Why is being broken a bad thing?
Because being broken means he shuts down every other character period.
Why is shutting down every other character period a bad thing?
Because it turns competitive play into who can play the broken character the best.
Why is competitive play turning into who can play the broken character the best a bad thing?
Because it stifles the diversity of the game.

Your quoted post stating why Akuma was banned only supports the idea that diversity is a valid reason to ban something.