Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[|RK|]

If stifling diversity to a huge extent is a reason to ban a character, it's always a reason to ban a character. Metaknight just isn't at that point yet.

Okay. Agreed.

So, too much of a character (which there isn't of Meta-Knight) IS reason for a ban, in order for other characters to remain viable.

(I told I would concede when proven wrong )

 

[ssbbFICTION]

its really sickening at the ignorance and non-smarticaltude of the smash community

>_<

 

[salaboB]

I said I was talking to Eyada.

TBH, use a private message if you don't want other people responding.

 

[thrillagorilla]

i mean seroius people. i dont care who u are, how can u say this guy is a god when pit is just like him.

I'll give the reasons why before you start yelling at Asdioh for no good reason.

1. mk has more mid-air jumps
2. mk has 2 glides, pit has 1
3. mk has more range on most if not all of his moves (not including projectiles)
4. mk's ground moves bypass intrinsic priority rules, pits follow them like any other character

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=155409&highlight=Clashing+Priority

Read this if you don't understand what I'm talking about.

5. mk has more viable kill options in d-smash and shuttle loop.

There are more reasons, but with how long its taken me to post this there have probably already been multiple posts saying the same things.

Edit: @RK Joker: What is the point when it becomes "too much"? I don't mind your way of thinking, but quantify if you are going to make a statement like that. Personally, I would think it to be around 40%-50% of the total community if total amount of people is the only criteria taken into consideration. As far as I know, we aren't quite at that point yet. Genesis will hopefully be a good gauge.

 

[Falconv1.0]

@Thrilla and the rest of the smart people left here-

Let's stop throwing nums nums at the troll m'kay?

 

[Grunt]

non-smarticaltude

uuuuuuuuuh, wut.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

uuuuuuuuuh, wut.

Dont act like you dont know what it means.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Sorry, Falcon. I know I should stop, but I have this part of me that screams out when I see these types of post...

"They can be saved! Don't lose hope!"

 

[Asdioh]

Okay, then, but Brawl isn't "use MK or lose".

I'm pretty sure it's very close to that, is what people are arguing.

Let me attempt to make an example for the sake of continuing pointless debate.

Let's say, let's just say, that tourney sets were best of 1 (you only play one game) rather than best of 3.

Now you have to blind pick a character against your opponent, and you don't know what they play.

If you want to win, what is the SAFEST character to pick, EVERY time? Meta Knight. What character would they pick if they have the same mindset? Meta Knight.

Now obviously we're not playing 1 game sets, but even in best of 3s this is what's happening more and more. I think that was what Pierce, or Emblem Lord, or one of those Marth guys was arguing about a while back: something about options, or something. >_> I forgot the exact term.


anyway yeah, I forgot what else I was going to say. I tend to go off on tangents, maybe I'm not good at debating XD

 

[Falconv1.0]

Asdioh, he's the safest choice, but it's no where near pick MK or lose. Not even close.

 

[Eyada]

As a general point, people who aren't knowledgeable on the topic at hand should simply be ignored. Explaining things to them which have already been covered innumerable times in various areas of the forum is a waste of everyone's time.

If you aren't up-to-date on the discussion, don't participate. Barging in and spewing your worthless, uninformed opinion all over the place and then subsequently demanding explanations why all of your asinine assertions are worthless and inaccurate is arrogant, annoying, and laughable. No one here owes you an explanation for things that have already been covered countless times. Do the reading for yourself and then come back.

If I were an Administrator, it would be a ban-worthy offense; but I guess the current staff is a bit more forgiving.

 

[Kewkky]

Just let MK stay. The more people using MK, the better! Means there will be less people understanding how the other characters work, which leads to other characters beating MKs out of lack of experience in MKs' part! Once the metagame revolves around MK, it'll be time to put the plan into action... :embarrass




[/stupid]

 

[Ravin]

Asdioh, he's the safest choice, but it's no where near pick MK or lose. Not even close.

No. It should be

Pick MK or Lose your Money.

 

[|RK|]

Edit: @RK Joker: What is the point when it becomes "too much"? I don't mind your way of thinking, but quantify if you are going to make a statement like that. Personally, I would think it to be around 40%-50% of the total community if total amount of people is the only criteria taken into consideration. As far as I know, we aren't quite at that point yet. Genesis will hopefully be a good gauge.

I myself was thinking anywhere over 50%, even 50.1%. That would mean he's taken up far too much play time and over half of the community use him.

Eyada, agreed.

FICTION, agreed.

Ravin, no.

 

[Woozle]

I think Metaknight should be banned so we can start an "Unban Metaknight" poll thread.

 

[Ravin]

Oh its not?

Whys that? Could have sworn MK holds more wins then the top 6 or 7 below him combined.

Just me, Im guessing.

 

[|RK|]

Oh its not?

Whys that? Could have sworn MK holds more wins then the top 6 or 7 below him combined.

Just me, Im guessing.

Because people beat Meta-Knight.

You're ever the pessimist

Oh, Eyada, ever consider being a Smash Debater?

 

[Tubba Blubba Heart]

Metaknight isn't broken

Marth is. he got his side a and regular b which he charges and kils

 

[Ravin]

<.< Not NEARLY as much as he wins.

Just because you can beat the player, doesnt mean the character isnt broken. Thats the issue at hand here.

Incase you didn't know.

 

[|RK|]

<.< Not NEARLY as much as he wins.

Just because you can beat the player, doesnt mean the character isnt broken. Thats the issue at hand here.

Incase you didn't know.

Meta-Knight isn't broken.

 

[Tubba Blubba Heart]

Meta-Knight isn't broken.

correct

i don't see how people do not think that marth isn't broken

he has

fast running speed
strong aerial attacks
strong grround mmoves

the worst his side and a button move with the sowrd. he can run fast and then use that

 

[Ravin]

Way to justify your answer with a three letter sentence.

<3

Now off to lurk elsewhere.

 

[Tubba Blubba Heart]

Wat to justify your answer with a three letter sentence.

<3

Now off to lurk elsewhere.

who me????

 

[bigman40]

correct

i don't see how people do not think that marth isn't broken

he has

fast running speed
strong aerial attacks
strong grround mmoves

the worst his side and a button move with the sowrd. he can run fast and then use that

If you think that then ban Marth. All this *****ing is just annoying.

 

[Woozle]

It's true:

If metaknight were broken, we could fix him.

Unfortunately, we're stuck with him the way he is.

:<

 

[Kewkky]

Metaknight isn't broken

Marth is. he got his side a and regular b which he charges and kils

Oh, I know where you're going with this...!

:: prepares for a Ban Marth debate, it's the last thing SWF needs before it completely falls apart ::

 

[Tubba Blubba Heart]

Oh, I know where you're going with this...!

:repares for a Ban Marth debate, it's the last thing SWF needs before it completely falls apart::

What? it wont make it fall apart. you crazy? LOOK AT MARTH WHY IS HE SO FAST AND HAVE THE END OF THE BLADE HITS THAT MAKE HIM SUPER STONG? marth needs to be banned. I'm dead serious.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Count down to Tubba's ban starts noooow.

 

[Tubba Blubba Heart]

i hate marth

 

[Tubba Blubba Heart]

It's true:

If metaknight were broken, we could fix him.

Unfortunately, we're stuck with him the way he is.

:<

Who we need to fix is marth.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm going to throw this out there, but I'm pretty much entirely sure my personal best winning chances completely independent of everything (opponent's character, stage, blind pick, counterpicks, etc.) lie in me playing as Mr. Game & Watch. No, I can't just do the stuff I do with him better with Meta Knight; he moves something like twice as fast through the air and his way of going about almost everything is different. I've messed around with Meta Knight, and I don't find him "easy" to use at all. The way his best tactics involve lots of aerials but he has such terrible aerial mobility is just very unnatural to me. I'm actually 100% sure about this; I could invest n hours into practicing with Mr. Game & Watch and n hours into practicing with Meta Knight and my Mr. Game & Watch would always be better. I'm actually fairly baffled at how Meta Knight is a good fit for so many people; it's always been the case in fighting games that you are better off picking a good fit among the best characters instead of the absolute best character, and my experiences with Brawl do not suggest to me that it is different.

For me personally, if I for some reason weren't able to use Mr. Game & Watch anymore, I'd consider Marth, Wario, Pikachu, King Dedede, and Olimar easier characters to pick up among the top characters (Lucario too if you think he counts as a top character, though I don't). To me, they're about a million times more natural than Meta Knight which means that I personally would have to work a lot less hard to win with them. This is really the basis of my opposition to the Meta Knight ban; I could never support banning something I can't go and win with myself, and I know I can't go and win with Meta Knight. He's not even my 5th or 6th best winning option. It would be nearly strictly in my best interest to have him banned since several of the best local players use him, but it would also be in my best interest for Snake, Donkey Kong, Ice Climbers, Diddy Kong, Toon Link, and Marth to be banned.

A lot of the argument I see to ban him assume that everyone is good with Meta Knight and that you just kinda lose randomly when pitted against Meta Knight. What is the argument that he should be banned that would convince someone who is bad with Meta Knight and further someone who feels as though he was outplayed every time he has lost to Meta Knight?

 

[Tubba Blubba Heart]

The marth thing was a joke

You know why MK isn't going to be banned? You guys continue to make the same arguments over and over.

Here a summary:

Wahh he's too dominant at tournies BAN
Wahh He break Cp system. BAN
Wahh his learning curve is zero. BAN
Wahh *insert despcription of his abilities here* BAN

Get some new material.

 

[Twin_Scimitar]

Meta-Knight isn't broken.

You seem to be reasonable enough. Once people explain something to you and it is clear your position is not as good as theirs you admit defeat. It's fine if you weren't being serious and you were just joking with him, however I'm confused as to how you can be so black and white about his brokenness (if you are serious).

If you say that once Meta knight becomes 50.1% of the brawl population you consider him worthy for a ban, why is it ridiculous for someone else to draw the line at 40%? Or whatever percent they are under the impression it is right now? Does the majority really have some magical quality to it, when the thing at stake is the diversity of brawl? You can't state as a fact that he is not broken just because someone else draws a line at a different point than you do. That's opinion sir.

 

[Tubba Blubba Heart]

If you say that once Meta knight becomes 50.1% of the brawl population you consider him worthy for a ban.

Diversity shouldn't even be a factor in the first place. All you people that think just because genesis may have MK as too dominant is good enough reason to ban him are stupid

 

[Kewkky]

There IS no valid argument behind "I win against everyone, but lose to MK, so let's ban him!". Most of the pro-ban players just follow the majority of the people to not be shoved aside into the smaller, anti-ban group. Sort of like a need to 'fit in', which they also see boosted by one less headache at tournaments, ending up with two birds killed with one stone.

I am completely anti-ban. MK is winnable. My counter for MK is Kirby. Kirby can destroy MK if the same MK doesn't know what to watch out for. Couple that with knowledge on what works against MK's choices, and you have yourself a winning situation.

If the pro-ban community is choosing to ban MK out of self-gratification, then this poll has no meaning at all. In fact, as soon as the SB-R decided on making this poll, Genesis was practically told to let down on the MKs, or else they'll ban him. If the 'top' players know what's good for them, they'll sacrifice this tourney and its winnings by using a different character (at least, some of them), so they can keep using it on the many, many tourneys that will take place until the next tier list will be done. It's a smart investment, sacrifice $50.00 to earn hundreds more over the course of time that is left between this upcoming tier list, and the next... So, as soon as this poll appeared and made public the consideration of MK's ban, MK's usage should've dumbed down even a little.

If that won't solve the MK problem for Genesis, then the only thing that will warrant his banning is seeing the top 10 placings dominated by MK, yet again... Which will not help the community in any way, as another character will appear and start dominating the tournament scene... Maybe with not the same flair, but domination nonetheless, then even though we won't ban them because they'll have legal counterpicks, people will start complaining abou that character. It's a never-ending cycle.

Mks can be beaten. If YOU can't beat any MKs, then it's your problem. The top players, however, are the ones who refuse to lose. Learn to deal with the characters, learn to sit back and watch before rushing into a dsmash/tornado, and you'll see the tides turn.

Anti-ban, and staying anti-ban.

 

[AvaricePanda]

So beacuse they can kill earlier it isn't bad? Banana control on RC is almost impossible since the stage keeps moving and with multiple levels to jump around in opponents can avoid the nanerz easier then on any other stage. Snake on RC... lol? So much for nade camping huh? C4 and mine use is screwed for most of the level and snakes already extremly gimpable recovery is now going to be used alot more due to how rc moves around putting him over and over in a horrible situation

Wario on luigi's isn't supposed to be a good idea.

And every one of them has a counterpick, mk doesn't <_<.

Don't forget that RC only actually moves vertically for like a third of the two minute cycle.

Just because a stage isn't flat, doesn't mean it's instantly bad for Diddy. His banana game stays relatively unchanges at the top third, and on the boat it gets a slight boost because of the wall for potential banana locks there. There's only a third of the stage where you can't use bananas. Diddy doesn't instantly suck because he doesn't have bananas. He has good jump height and mobility, and his aerials are all decent.

I'll agree that RC is most probably Snake's worst stage (I don't main him seriously, so I'm not going to pretend I know), but it's not a bad stage. And even if it is, ZOMGLOL you can just ban it.

When a character only has one detrimental stage, they can just keep banning it and the opponent can't CP it.

And at anyone saying, "Oh, I should just CP MK whenever I run against an MK!" Yeah, good luck using someone you hardly use to beat any top-placing MKs. Saying, "well, the match-up is 50-50 so it's even," is a very, very moot point. Matchups are only even if you're actually knowledgable about the match-up. And when a matchup is even, in general you just have to be better than your opponent to win.

tl;dr: MK breaks the CP system is a very moot point, and it's already been countered multiple times by me, Inui, and others throughout the thread.

 

[Deathcarter]

NOBODY answered this question I asked near the beginning of this thread, but if MK "breaks" the counterpicking system, then why don't we change it in general. Allow a more conservative list of only the most fair stages to prevent godly combinations. Don't allow absolutely any stage striking by either of the players. And afterwards, the player who pick lower tier character (during the double blind pick of course) gets to pick the stage of his choice. Then during the subsequest rounds of the set, keep everything as we currently do. Something like this would be prefferable to a ban.

I really think the ruleset in general needs to be changed if only because the current system does not allow for any counter measures against MK. Why don't we discuss things like this instead of a ban?

 

[thrillagorilla]

I'm going to throw this out there, but I'm pretty much entirely sure my personal best winning chances completely independent of everything (opponent's character, stage, blind pick, counterpicks, etc.) lie in me playing as Mr. Game & Watch. No, I can't just do the stuff I do with him better with Meta Knight; he moves something like twice as fast through the air and his way of going about almost everything is different. I've messed around with Meta Knight, and I don't find him "easy" to use at all. The way his best tactics involve lots of aerials but he has such terrible aerial mobility is just very unnatural to me. I'm actually 100% sure about this; I could invest n hours into practicing with Mr. Game & Watch and n hours into practicing with Meta Knight and my Mr. Game & Watch would always be better. I'm actually fairly baffled at how Meta Knight is a good fit for so many people; it's always been the case in fighting games that you are better off picking a good fit among the best characters instead of the absolute best character, and my experiences with Brawl do not suggest to me that it is different.

For me personally, if I for some reason weren't able to use Mr. Game & Watch anymore, I'd consider Marth, Wario, Pikachu, King Dedede, and Olimar easier characters to pick up among the top characters (Lucario too if you think he counts as a top character, though I don't). To me, they're about a million times more natural than Meta Knight which means that I personally would have to work a lot less hard to win with them. This is really the basis of my opposition to the Meta Knight ban; I could never support banning something I can't go and win with myself, and I know I can't go and win with Meta Knight. He's not even my 5th or 6th best winning option. It would be nearly strictly in my best interest to have him banned since several of the best local players use him, but it would also be in my best interest for Snake, Donkey Kong, Ice Climbers, Diddy Kong, Toon Link, and Marth to be banned.

A lot of the argument I see to ban him assume that everyone is good with Meta Knight and that you just kinda lose randomly when pitted against Meta Knight. What is the argument that he should be banned that would convince someone who is bad with Meta Knight and further someone who feels as though he was outplayed every time he has lost to Meta Knight?

Its hard to argue with opinions, which is why this potential ban is a problem in the first place. I'm in the same boat you are, I don't like his play-style and it's unnatural to me. This doesn't mean that if I put in the time (albeit, it may not be equal amounts) that I won't be as good at mk as I am with Kirby or DK, though.

Opinions are fine, but they shouldn't be used for ban criteria, or for debate. Let your opinions be expressed in the poll.

Edit: Holy... wow this thread moved fast.

Edit 2: @deathcarter: I read your post, and I didn't answer because I wanted time to think about it. Sorry about that. I'll post my thoughts later to avoid a double post.

 

[AvaricePanda]

NOBODY answered this question I asked near the beginning of this thread, but if MK "breaks" the counterpicking system, then why don't we change it in general. Allow a more conservative list of only the most fair stages to prevent godly combinations. Don't allow absolutely any stage striking by either of the players. And afterwards, the player who pick lower tier character (during the double blind pick of course) gets to pick the stage of his choice. Then during the subsequest rounds of the set, keep everything as we currently do. Something like this would be prefferable to a ban.

I really think the ruleset in general needs to be changed if only because the current system does not allow for any counter measures against MK. Why don't we discuss things like this instead of a ban?

I answered this before, lol.

My argument is that MK doesn't even break the counterpicking system, and the problem with changing said system is that it isn't clear what should be changed.

As far as stages are concerned, the only one that gives MK a huge advantage is Mansion (tornado says hi) and honestly, that stage should be banned anyway. Of course there's RC, but you can always use your stage ban for that. That's kind of iffy.

Giving the lower-tier character the stage pick is very inefficient, as some match-ups are erratic through the tier list, and the tier list isn't even accurate anyway. If I'm a Diddy facing a Luigi (Luigi has a good advantage in this match-up), then it's stupid to let the Luigi choose the CP simply because he's lower tier. Same for Snake vs. D3, Diddy vs. Wolf...there's easily a lot more match-ups like this.

 

[Deathcarter]

I answered this before, lol.

My argument is that MK doesn't even break the counterpicking system, and the problem with changing said system is that it isn't clear what should be changed.

As far as stages are concerned, the only one that gives MK a huge advantage is Mansion (tornado says hi) and honestly, that stage should be banned anyway. Of course there's RC, but you can always use your stage ban for that. That's kind of iffy.

Giving the lower-tier character the stage pick is very inefficient, as some match-ups are erratic through the tier list, and the tier list isn't even accurate anyway. If I'm a Diddy facing a Luigi (Luigi has a good advantage in this match-up), then it's stupid to let the Luigi choose the CP simply because he's lower tier. Same for Snake vs. D3, Diddy vs. Wolf...there's easily a lot more match-ups like this.

You are pretty much right on most of those things (And now I do remember you replying, but then again, woody/SAGET/dmbrandon get more replies than I do so you can't really blame me:/). I did realize the problems with the low tier idea after I posted. I basically posted this because things like this are what we need to discuss as a community and not a ban on a character that is not even broken.

Though the counterpicking system does need a bit of fine tunning. M2K put it best when he said that the winner of the first match of the set was usually at too huge of an advantage. We can deal with non-top MKs effectively enough, but overcoming that loss of the first match is much harder, what with the stage/character combinations, your opponent banning your best stage, and the fact that the top tiers pretty much adapt to stages better than the lower tiers.