Sheikah Survival Guide: A Sheik Match-up Thread

[<π]

SHAC nair isn't a viable approach in any match up IMO. realistically he can just pivot you out of it on reaction just like everyone else. it's like a sh air dodge not very hard to read.

that said. You guys are giving Oli way too much credit. pikimin are neat but you can hit the out of the air and off you before the do damage if the connect with jabs and tilts. needles aren't rendered useless by any means in the match up, while the are less effective the still have their uses.

Oli's move set isn't especially fast which means baiting and punishing with him isn't hard. just stay safe and punish his mess ups. hit through pikimin toss with dash attacks. force him to the air and take advantage of oli. keep fair fresh it hits at a nice low angle and is purty powerful when fresh.

Oli is good but sheik gets past his strengths and abuses his weaknesses.

 

[Bsrk_]

You made a nice point about Oli having slower moves in comparison_ They are punishable yes, but if he reads you well and traps you then you will be KO'd at a fairly low percent_ If they stay grounded against you and read into your aerials then you are just gonna get grabbed_

The best strategy is to put pressure on him as soon as an opening is available_ Keep them moving and try to make them lose pikmin_ If you allow them to control the ground and outcamp you i'm fairly certain you can expect an easy KO while he remains at a fairly decent percentage_

I say it's slightly in his favour due to him forcing the approach and owning Shiek on the ground_ As i mentioned, i haven't had a great deal of experience as Shiek vs Oli but the other way around was fairly simple and easy to read_ SH aerial approaches just get grabbed, whistle gets you back on the ground and you outrange all of Shieks attacks_ jab > grab, ftilt > grab are good juggle starts if you can get them off an will give you the percentage ammount required to keep him in momentum_

 

[saviorslegacy]

I don't want to spend a long time typing so here are bullet points: (excuse any typo's cuz I am using a strange key board)


#1 Needle's are an anti camp in this match up.
He can FSmash or throw but if you time it right then you should be able to hit Oli with some of the Needle's.
If not then just kill off his Pikmin.

#2 If a Pikmin is on you simply SH> Nair to kill them. This can also be useful for approaching every once in a while since weak Nair= almost anything.

#3 Chain ***** in this match up. It kill his Pikmin... nough said.

#4 The best way IMO to get damage on Oli is to trick him into using whistle close to the ground while you pull out the Chain.
The most effective way I think is this:
f-tilt> Fair> Chain
That is also a good mix up on a lot of people because most of the time you will out space their combo breaker.
If they jump then owell.
If they Marth then don't do it.

#5 Swan works well when not whistles (IDK the legit percents).
Instead use a mixture of swan and the chain set up mentioned above.

#6 I'm not a fan of my own combo because of all of the head ache it has brought me, but Saltus works wonders if the Sheik is skilled enough.
According to my data if Oli can be combo'd from like 30ish% to death.
It is also good to mention that the entire globe (like half of Olimar) is a footstool hit box. Making footstools easier.

#7 GR is a great way to get Oli off stage.
His grab release send him quite far. Try and grab the ledge at this point. If you are good enough you can use the NLC to remove his second jump when he starts up his jump and you grab the ledge. No garuntee that he will let himslef line up like that.
If not you can simpl Bair him.
Also, try dangling with your tether.



That is what I have to say.
..... it is bigger than I wanted..... owell.

 

[Judo777]

I think the biggest problem with this matchup is people dont know the olimar matchup at all. I have started thinking that maybe this matchup isnt quite as bad as people say.

 

[<π]

2 needles + sheik > pikmin toss + olimar

jab > 6 pikmin

olimar in the air < sheik in the air

I think Oli is pretty even. we can gimp him pretty well though.

 

[Tristan_win]

Hello, I'm sorry this is off topic but due to my recent realization that dash attack is amazing and brief testing I wish to make a point to all of you if you didn't already know it.

Marth cannot effectively shield pressure us because of the dash attack

Shields drops in 7 frames
Dash attack happens in 5
7 + 5 = 12 frames.

Marth Fair frame data
Fair
Hit: 4-8
End: 34
Shield Stun: 10
~Shield Hit Lag: 5
ADVANTAGE: -25
ADVANTAGE (SHFF): -4
Tipper Shield Stun: 13
~Shield Hit Lag: 11
ADVANTAGE: -28
ADVANTAGE (SHFF): -8
SHFF Fair Lag: 8
SH Fair Fast Falled Lag: 3

It's pretty clear as day here
Non tipper fair
ADVANTAGE: -25
Tipper fair
ADVANTAGE: -28

Marth is open to either 25 to 28 frames for attack. You can visibly see 10 frames (think game and watch dsmash) and react so not only do we have room for error but we can even react upon receiving the fair and still just barely make it.

SHEIKS, if we are smart Marth fair will never pressure are shields again and by dash attack OoS we WILL change the match up ratio. Marth one of the best shield pressure has fallen to the might of the dash attack, other will fall as well and Sheik will raise into the heavens of the tier list

Sheik for high tier.

 

[rathy Aro]

Sheik>=Marth. Just like I was saying.

And yeah. I feel like <3 convinced me that dash attack is mad good a little while ago. I've yet to start heavily using it to punish though, only when i fail to dash grab the same thing several times. XD

 

[-Mars-]

Haha all of a sudden Tristan is all excited lmao.

 

[Tristan_win]

Haha all of a sudden Tristan is all excited lmao.

..Let's just say it's been a while since I saw something that made me think more of Sheik. I'm not going to say "Sheik for top tier" but...

 

[Judo777]

Hello, I'm sorry this is off topic but due to my recent realization that dash attack is amazing and brief testing I wish to make a point to all of you if you didn't already know it.

Marth cannot effectively shield pressure us because of the dash attack

Shields drops in 7 frames
Dash attack happens in 5
7 + 5 = 12 frames.

Marth Fair frame data
Fair
Hit: 4-8
End: 34
Shield Stun: 10
~Shield Hit Lag: 5
ADVANTAGE: -25
ADVANTAGE (SHFF): -4
Tipper Shield Stun: 13
~Shield Hit Lag: 11
ADVANTAGE: -28
ADVANTAGE (SHFF): -8
SHFF Fair Lag: 8
SH Fair Fast Falled Lag: 3

It's pretty clear as day here
Non tipper fair
ADVANTAGE: -25
Tipper fair
ADVANTAGE: -28

Marth is open to either 25 to 28 frames for attack. You can visibly see 10 frames (think game and watch dsmash) and react so not only do we have room for error but we can even react upon receiving the fair and still just barely make it.

SHEIKS, if we are smart Marth fair will never pressure are shields again and by dash attack OoS we WILL change the match up ratio. Marth one of the best shield pressure has fallen to the might of the dash attack, other will fall as well and Sheik will raise into the heavens of the tier list

Sheik for high tier.

I don't think that is what that means. Why would a tipper Fair be less safe than a non tipper? And even if i am wrong its not quite that simple yea DA comes out on frame 5 and it takes 7 frames to drop shield but don't you also have to account the distance we have to travel to be able to reach marth (especially since most of the time he will be retreating and the shield stun knocks us back). Doesnt it take a few frames to begin the dash animation too and isn't there 1 additional frame for button input?

 

[rathy Aro]

This is exactly why dash attack is good, because of range AND speed. I don't think many other characters have an option that will actually punish a well spaced marth fair, but sheik doesn't give a **** about you spacing.

 

[-Mars-]

A little risky thing I like to mix in every once in a while is retreating fair to an instant dash attack......surprising how often it hits lol.

 

[stealth3654]

When Marth hits with the tipper, he is frozen for a few frames. Just like when Zelda sweet spots her lightning kicks.

 

[Judo777]

When Marth hits with the tipper, he is frozen for a few frames. Just like when Zelda sweet spots her lightning kicks.

But the shield stun and shield knock back are equally increased i seriously don't think its easier to punish i might be wrong tho

 

[Tristan_win]

I don't think that is what that means. Why would a tipper Fair be less safe than a non tipper? And even if i am wrong its not quite that simple yea DA comes out on frame 5 and it takes 7 frames to drop shield but don't you also have to account the distance we have to travel to be able to reach marth (especially since most of the time he will be retreating and the shield stun knocks us back). Doesnt it take a few frames to begin the dash animation too and isn't there 1 additional frame for button input?

You know I notice that as well but I remembered after reading it that back in the day (like months ago) some marth player was *****ing to me about how they got more stun for tipping. Honestly though I could be mistaken as at one point I thought Marth side B came out in 1 frame and lucario jab came out in 1 frame which is not the case

The easiest way to learn if it's true or not is to just ask a good marth main.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Lucas boards are discussing the joint MU with Sheik/Zelda, we would like some input from you guys:

 

[Tristan_win]

Hey guys, do you think it's possible for Sheik to stall out ice climbers with platforms if we use hit and run tactics like we normally do and then once nana is dead if we are even in stock we just wait it out? Popo doesn't seem to have the means to fight above him very well or when airborne, his raising speed from his jump is also pretty slow, and without his ***** he loses a lot of his threat.

Another idea is to start the match out with Zelda and then once nana is dead and give the chance to switch back to sheik we switch out and then stall popo out.

What do you guys think?

 

[stealth3654]

That is a tactic some Falcos use against IC. It's really boring, but it works. It seems like Sheik can do the same. Like you said, starting with Zelda to kill off Nana, then knock Popo far enough away to transform.

 

[<π]

uair is ****ing ****. we can't beat it from below and with our aerial movement speed... but yeah If I'm playing to win against IC I go jiggs and I time them out. (even though you can win with sheik without out right stalling)

 

[ZomgNinjah!!!1]

I'll still say the matchup is 50/50, not in Mario or Sheik's favor. Sheik got the sexy DAC, good side-A tilts. Mario and Sheik is even on ground but Mario is better than Sheik in air. Both of dem share strength, of course. Sheik's recovery is better than Mario's. Mario and Sheik cannot outcamp each other due to projectiles. If you Sheik players use needles, we'll spam cape to reflect it back. Sheik can counterpick a stage for Mario, it depends what stage that Mario sucks on and put it into Sheik's favor. But Mario does very well on platforms like Brinstar and Norfair. Mario and Sheik can edgeguarding each other, Mario got the cape and FLUDD to edgeguard Sheik and Sheik got the side B to hang on to edgeguard Mario and have invisibility frames to make him not to grab the ledge. But yeah, the matchup is 50/50 which is interesting both of them in my opinion.

For now I can actually agree with this, but maybe I just need a little more Mario training before making any final desicions.

 

[-Mars-]

Hey guys, do you think it's possible for Sheik to stall out ice climbers with platforms if we use hit and run tactics like we normally do and then once nana is dead if we are even in stock we just wait it out? Popo doesn't seem to have the means to fight above him very well or when airborne, his raising speed from his jump is also pretty slow, and without his ***** he loses a lot of his threat.

Another idea is to start the match out with Zelda and then once nana is dead and give the chance to switch back to sheik we switch out and then stall popo out.

What do you guys think?

Yea I would more than likely do this if I ever ran into a good Ice Climber......although if you're not ahead by much the player might choose to simply SD so he could have Nana back.

 

[Bsrk_]

So what is the verdict on the Olimar matchup_

 

[Tristan_win]

...How does Sheik beat meta knight planking once he's over 100%

._.' ...Help....

 

[-dMT-]

Chain?

Spoiler

10chains

 

[Tristan_win]

Chain?

Spoiler

10chains

That's what I thought, but it seems once meta knight is over 100% chain becomes a bit...I dare say useless.

Dash into vanish can work if he attacks everything especially if he just grabbed the ledge and dash into shield can work but not so well due to sheik long dash causes you to wait a bit. You have to be like half the chain distance away maybe less from the ledge in order to stop meta knight from grabbing it again and to enter that range you become a easy target for get up attacks, this isn't a problem in the lower percents but like I said I'm talking about over 100. Full hop and short hop needles are a joke for how slow the cool down is and charge up.

Eventually I came to the conclusion if a meta knight was to start planking me when over 100% the best possible option I would have would be to spin walk toward the ledge (it's either as fast or only a bit slower then dashing without the whole waiting for the dash to end) towards the ledge and as soon as I see meta knight react to shield and hope his uair would push me off the ledge so I could quickly punish. If his attacks doesn't push me off and he's playing it safe, roll away and try again.


I'm a bit worried about this dilemma.

 

[Bsrk_]

Is the edge grab rule 50 or 30_? In Perth (WA) we are looking at incorporating a 30 grab rule if the MK is called out on planking_

Also on a side note_ Been looking into other character threads about their matchup thoughts and discussions_ Noticed the Lucario boards have a discussion on doubles partners and tactics_ Would this be a viable topid to discuss_? Also really need to look more into some of the MU stage CP's and Bans given that some stages like Japes are getting banned permanently and also taking into consideration the most common stages a character would ban you from CP'ing_

 

[iLight]

everyone always bans me from playing them on either halberd or FD /cry

in regards to talking about teamates for sheiks, we started to at one point but it fell out for the most part
sheik is like on the same level of difficulty to play in teams as say someone like diddy kong, aka really hard to actually do anything w/o getting punished. so in essence you need someone on like Gnes level w/ sheik to even attempt to do it properly regardless of teamate

 

[NO-IDea]

...How does Sheik beat meta knight planking once he's over 100%

._.' ...Help....

You're over analyzing it. MK's aerial mobility is ****ty. Fast fall and grab the ledge after MK ledge-drops->u-air. Then, invincible aerial. His double jump is not that fast to re-grab it before you do. Afterwards, he'll start incorporating up+b after his u-air in attempts to punish you. Read it, shield it, punish it.

Don't confuse planking with stalling. An MK stalling using the ledges is impossible to stop on certain stages and hard to stop in general. An MK planking with u-air is only semi-difficult.

If you want to go farther with Sheik, Tristan, you should work on your ledge game/reading. Not MU wise, but in general. It will help with your ledge recovery too (you were horrendously predictable in our dittos.) Your chain work is very nice though. And dare I say your DACUS is perfected?

Sheik can handle planking reasonably well. Not being bias either (I'm no where close to a Sheik lover, I just like the fact that she's fast.) Punishing ledge recoveries is one of her stronger points, even without the chain.

 

[Tristan_win]

You're over analyzing it. MK's aerial mobility is ****ty. Fast fall and grab the ledge after MK ledge-drops->u-air. Then, invincible aerial. His double jump is not that fast to re-grab it before you do. Afterwards, he'll start incorporating up+b after his u-air in attempts to punish you. Read it, shield it, punish it.

Don't confuse planking with stalling. An MK stalling using the ledges is impossible to stop on certain stages and hard to stop in general. An MK planking with u-air is only semi-difficult.

If you want to go farther with Sheik, Tristan, you should work on your ledge game/reading. Not MU wise, but in general. It will help with your ledge recovery too (you were horrendously predictable in our dittos.) Your chain work is very nice though. And dare I say your DACUS is perfected?

Sheik can handle planking reasonably well. Not being bias either (I'm no where close to a Sheik lover, I just like the fact that she's fast.) Punishing ledge recoveries is one of her stronger points, even without the chain.

Overly analyzing is what I do a lot, being the first time to really face a decent meta knight staller and failing to come up with a soild answer I turn towards the fourms. What you suggested though is more or less what I thought about but your insight about the uair was really nice, thank you.

Also you are very right about my ledge game, I don't know why I'm not up to par on it..don't know how to work on it though.

Thank you for the advice and the compliments and no my dacus isn't perfected, I just practice it religiously a lot so I'm above 75%, generally.

 

[Zankoku]

I'm still not seeing how Sheik vs ICs is even.

 

[iLight]

its..... not?.....

 

[-dMT-]

I'm still not seeing how Sheik vs ICs is even.

lolwut?

Even? Who said Sheik vs ICs is even? lolz

 

[Zankoku]

<3 keeps telling me it is.

 

[Tristan_win]

I can't see a match up were one charater natural traits counters another that a match up could be even without a speical tech.

 

[<π]

It isn't even, but it isn't 70-30 either. I'd say 60-40. honestly sheik is too fast to be getting grabbed. needles wreck even though ICs have ice blocks. (only projectlies worse are zelda IMO)
I separate primarily by making their percents different; through needles, and ftilts combos into pivoit grabs. (they are one of the "slow charatcers" who don't really have answers to sheik's barely unlegit combo game.

We kill nana period. on stage off, what ever, free time alone with nana is a dead nana. we edge gaurd the **** out of climbers only MK does it better I think. between needles fair (which can hit above or below you) and bair sheik becomes very hard to get through.

that said one **** up on an approach, poorly spaced ftilt or jab, a trip. and it can just magically cost you a stock. Obviously in tourney you don't have to approach, and try and presure up close to avoid that huge risk, but its hard to always avoid these situations, and hard to get a lead.

Sopo has his chain grab 0-60 or some such. that can turn a game.

I have TONS of IC experince against a strong IC, I'm not saying the match up isn't difficult, but sheik can definitely hold her own as long as you aren't jumping into the ICs arms. They are old as hell now, we sucked back then but you can see the logic behind what I'm saying in my ten thousand sheik versus IC vids on my youtube account. And that me being ******** and aggressive like I always am in friendlies. imagine if I just didn't approach when I got the lead? what are they gonna do dsync blizzard approach?

 

[NO-IDea]

Also you are very right about my ledge game, I don't know why I'm not up to par on it..don't know how to work on it though.\

Play me more, dittos or otherwise. You'll either get better at it or lose every match. You haven't seen my MK, son! xD

 

[Tristan_win]

Play me more, dittos or otherwise. You'll either get better at it or lose every match. You haven't seen my MK, son! xD

lol, Now that I know you have a meta knight I'm going to have to force you to use it against me. Also Sheik dittos are lame I much rather fight something else.

 

[Tristan_win]

~injects life into the sheik boards~

Sheik vs snake tips.

Sheik Dtilt can't be shield grab(unless done near the knee) by snake and can't be punished by the first part of jab.

In the very low % (I use around 10%) sheik dtilt can string into it's self and even into the ftilt if they di poorly.

Sheik dsmash first part can't be shield grab by snake and the first part can't be punished by the first part of Snake jab

Sheik chain out ranges all of snake options, period. Always use jump into chain.

You can fall a set distance with the chain out before being force to retract, if snake isn't right below you yet and you wish to return to the stage floor using the chain to wall him is perfect. Worst thing that can happen is he hits you with a grenade. The chain can stop grenades safely but I wouldn't suggest trying.

Sheik utilt beats snake dair, nair, and can beat bair, although it can be hard to time. If snake start to pull out grenades to cause damage to both of you start using grabs into uthrow or dtilts.

If you grab snake around 50% grab hit him once before throwing, if you do fthrow or bthrow you will do a total of 10%. If around 100% do two if around 150% do three.

All of sheik aerials but dair beats all of snakes if done right, uair being the easiest to do.

Sheik likes to juggle and be juggled, whoever juggles best wins. This decides the match I feel more then 50% of the time, at least on sheik end. Basic start ups for juggling in include Dthrow, uthrow, dtilt, dash attack, uair, and utilt (if they di up). Ftilt can be used to juggle but if you landed a ftilt odds are you following it up with something.

Sheiks needles can cause snakes grenades to exploded in mid air and while he holds them sometimes(needles can randomly turn people around if that happens while snake is holding a grenade it will explode), if you hit him from behind though it will always exploded the grenade in his hands.

The camping fight if done correctly will force snake to approach.

Never get greedy, besides tipper usmash and lucky gimping you can't kill snake until at least 150%.

Snake utilt will kill you a little after 90%, I suggest around 70-80's to start doing more aerials on snake so he can read you and utilt you before then. Doing so will extend your survivability to into the 100's against the utilt. Doing this will save your *** a lot.

Sheik has more stage to counter pick against snake then snake has to counter pick against sheik. Stages like castle siege, jungle japes, brimstar, are all stages I usually pick. FD and smashville are the starters you want. Halberd I feel can go both ways but the person better at control will win mostly.

Some other things like if snake ftilt your sheild you can punish with dash attack and I think dash grab as well. If snake Utilt your shield you can dacus him. If snake jab combos your shield dash attack....maybe grab. All of these can be replaced with needle storm but I don't think it's guaranteed just a safe option if he doesn't shield or tries to strip a grenade.

If your in to this kind of stuff then learning things like
15% Ftilt into jabs start being a legit combo
31%(just round to 30, I doubt the snake will be frame perfect) Ftilt into Ftilt, Utilt, Dtilt, dsmash start being a legit combo
47% (round to 50) Ftilt into Nair start being a legit combo
Those are all for fresh Ftilts, just add like 5% for each decay you think your on and I guaranteed you it will work.
It's also worth noting that once he's getting into the higher % ftilt into uair will work a lot even if it can be escaped but just because how fast it is they wont be able to respond in time.

For Ftilt into usmash, unless you do a lot of juggling, a rather long tilt lock, or decayed it on a object like the statues on castle siege or brimstar goo you most likely wont land it on killing percents which like I said above is 115%...

Hitting a usmash early will weaken it by give or take 15% so if said you landed a Usmash on snake at 110% and he lived then unless you refresh it greatly before the next try you would have to wait to 135%

I think the Sheik vs Snake match up is fairly even,

 

[-Mars-]

Hmmm good stuff Tristan.

I don't like FD very much against Snake just because it makes it extremely hard for me to ever get up from the ledge safely due to not having platforms of some kind.

I would suggest not ever ftilting until he blows you up and instead playing the ftilt game against Snake almost similar to Marth because trading damage with Snake is not something you want to be doing.

Most Snakes when hit offstage immediately use their double jump, so if you predict and steal their double jump with a fair it forces them to rack on damage with C4.

A situational trick that works best on SV. If the moving platform is in the right place and Snake is recovering below it and it looks like he's going to be forced to use a C4, jump towards him and let him sticky you.

That's about all I got at the moment, I still have trouble in this matchup.

 

[Judo777]

@ Tristan good info you gave me alot of new insight. However I dont think using the chain against snake is really a good idea. Firstly the chain cannot stop his nikita if he runs it into the ground next to you and also if he strips a grenade above and behind you you cant hit it without taking damage. Also although it is doable to stop grenades from thew front you would have to be absolutely perfect about it and its of no risk to snake to just try and chuck grenades at you seeing if u screw up which will cost you 14%.

The comment about using the chain while falling is a very neat idea i never thought of that.