saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
#1 Sheiks boost grab is the exact same length of her Boost Pivot grab.
#2 Meta Knight touches the ground before you can regrab him.
I looked into both of these about 5ish months ago.
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Sheikah Survival Guide: A Sheik Match-up Thread
- Thread starter stealth3654
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#2 Meta Knight touches the ground before you can regrab him.
I looked into both of these about 5ish months ago.
Sheik has a boost grab that gives a very slight extra distance, but it's the difference between regrabbing Meta Knight on time and not.
The boost pivot grab is an entirely different mechanic and utterly useless in this case considering that it points in the wrong direction.
To whoever said it before, Sheik's dash attack is fast enough to hit Meta Knight from a grab release. Sheik's running usmash side hit is just barely fast enough, but the timing window's so small you might as well just learn DACUS and reap the full reward. Sheik's needles will obviously hit Meta Knight from grab release, but since he can jump before he actually touches the ground, and thus you need to throw them early, at most only 4 needles (about 10% damage) will connect from a full charge.
The boost pivot grab is an entirely different mechanic and utterly useless in this case considering that it points in the wrong direction.
To whoever said it before, Sheik's dash attack is fast enough to hit Meta Knight from a grab release. Sheik's running usmash side hit is just barely fast enough, but the timing window's so small you might as well just learn DACUS and reap the full reward. Sheik's needles will obviously hit Meta Knight from grab release, but since he can jump before he actually touches the ground, and thus you need to throw them early, at most only 4 needles (about 10% damage) will connect from a full charge.
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
I'm pretty sure that was a typo.
They aren't wanting to CG, they want to do something like Ike's infinite on Wario, but us doing it to MK.
Hmmm... didn't know we could side hit with USmash. That is interesting.
Judo777
Smash Master
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How would you possibly think that MK falls low enough to get hit by needles and but not low enough to be grabbed? Obviously MK's height has nothing to do with the debate the only question is whether we can move fast enough and by using boost grabbing you can. I did it to 3 mks last tourney and they all knew about the infinite and were trying to escape and couldn't. One of them was a ranked player (at least im pretty sure) from ohio that is pretty freaking good. It's guaranteed.
And wth does a pivot grab have to do with gr release on mk you have to be able to run well past mk to pivot grab or even boost pivot grab.
And wth does a pivot grab have to do with gr release on mk you have to be able to run well past mk to pivot grab or even boost pivot grab.
I'm pretty sure you're only reading what you want to read.
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
Whats to be confused about? Judo was talking about a chaingrab on MK which is simply grab->grab release-> boost grab (dash attack+grab)-> regrab. Ankoku confirmed that it is a true chaingrab, but it requires the boost (the dash attack+grab not just a grab) for you to catch MK before he can move.
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
Ah, I thought he was talking about the infi idea that we could GR him back and forth like on Wario.
BTW, I am told by some EU Sheiks that this is the Mexican tier list and match up chart.
It is the mexican tier list/ match up chart. I thought their take on sheik's matchups are interesting. She has like no bad matchups, which is weird and a bunch of even matchups, which I think is sort of weird too. I think they're overestimating how much zelda adds to sheiks matchups. Or maybe I'm underestimating?
Dcold
Smash Lord
Sheik doesn't really have any horrible match ups except for ICs, and even that's a debateable 70-30/6-4. I don't think it's the addition of Zelda that makes much of a difference since Zelda is more susceptible to getting gimped and more things. I just think it's their view on the possibilities of each match-up.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
sheik's worst matchup is pikachu IMO
Judo777
Smash Master
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sheik has 3 fairly bad matchups. Btw IC's is definitely the worst and holy crap it is bad. Sheik cant do anything she is supposed to do against the IC's and they **** her like its their job.
Pika is pretty bad too but the good news is if you can avoid the chain grab up to 50% then its actually in sheiks favor IMO but there is no doubt that it is close without the chaingrab.
And then Kirby is the other matchup that really is just aweful. Kirby is the on character who just ***** sheik without gaying her to death. Bair beats all of our attacks except for needles and chain and such. Hes stronger than us and not slow either. He can take our needles and that hurts us alot too.
These are the only matchups that i feel strongly to use zelda for.
Pika is pretty bad too but the good news is if you can avoid the chain grab up to 50% then its actually in sheiks favor IMO but there is no doubt that it is close without the chaingrab.
And then Kirby is the other matchup that really is just aweful. Kirby is the on character who just ***** sheik without gaying her to death. Bair beats all of our attacks except for needles and chain and such. Hes stronger than us and not slow either. He can take our needles and that hurts us alot too.
These are the only matchups that i feel strongly to use zelda for.
@Dcold: They put sheik even with people who she blatantly looses to (ICs included). It must be the fact that they are considering the Zelda matchup as well. Its not like Zelda doesn't have match ups that she does better in than sheik.
I just noticed that they have DK vs DDD as 100-0. XD They've never seen a good DK.
And they have Ganon in G tier skipping F tier. lol
But anyway. I don't agree with a number of those matchups. I don't think we should take those ratios too seriously.
I just noticed that they have DK vs DDD as 100-0. XD They've never seen a good DK.
And they have Ganon in G tier skipping F tier. lol
But anyway. I don't agree with a number of those matchups. I don't think we should take those ratios too seriously.
-dMT-
Smash Lord
yo Dcold what happened with PolyBrawl? Thought yo were coming.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
i dont really mind kirby, and i'm getting better against ic's 
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
No, not really.
He is only a threat between 0 - 20%.
Just speed amp and Needle him. Also pull out your chain so he will thunder shock you.
After 20% he is not a problem. We also have GR> tipper DACUS which kill him at like 80ish%.
*red
*red
I planned on commenting on more but decided not to. lol
Anyways.....
I believe that Sheik has a LOT of even match ups.
I really don't feel like we have the advantage in to many match ups.
I also don't feel like we have the advantage in a ton of match ups. If we have the advantage it's because of the Chain or the f-tilt.
ps If the Mexicans feel like Sheik/Zelda is that good they must a hell of a player.
I googled and searched on youtube but didn't find anything. Does anyone have any info on this?
Dcold
Smash Lord
Couldn't go that day due to family probs and was figuring i couldn't go in the first place since it would be madd busy in that area on black friday weekend
stealth3654
Smash Lord
You have to avoid Pika's CG until you are over like 50% - 60%. Pika just has to forward throw CG you to 20% or so, then start the down throw CG.
Judo777
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No saviors i am extremely positive of what i said i asked K Prime about it myself. Pika can begin the dthrow chain grab from 10 or 20% -50% and it goes all the way into the 100s it is inescapable if done correctly. before 10% he can fthrow chain grab to dthrow chain grab percents so once again dont get grabbed. If pika does try to begin the cg before those percents you can escape by buffering a jumps and footstooling pika. Also when pika get you to 100% upsmash is guaranteed and unless you are ding down and shield immediately so is fsmash so make sure di down and sheild during pikas cg or you might get fsmashed which is a free kill.
On a side note yea pikas gr aint great tho i think it kight be better than ours and then of course there is that fact our grab range sucks too but pika is fast so its not that hard to get a grab.
Concerning the mexican tier list if you are good with both sheik and zelda i feel the only matchups that are still pretty difficult for both is MK, Olimar, and Lucario. Then again i hear gw is bad but i never seem to have trouble with him maybe its just a preferrence thing but if gw is bad then yea he ***** zelda hard so he might be one.
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
You have to work hard to give make fighting Sheik a ***** for MK.
That's the problem with most Sheiks.
Sheik has so many options people become biased to a handful and when those options don't work they scream mid tier or bad MU. -_-
Judo777
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Again Im not gonna argue the mk one but the oli matchup is pretty bad. The second best player in our state uses olimar and he is really good i play him alot i know the olimar matchup pretty well and its pretty poor. One thing that pisses me off is OLIMAR IS FREAKING HEAVIER THAN WE ARE! I have been looking around for the character weight list and the one they have on wiki is freaking wrong so i just tested for my self and oli lives 2 percent longer against marios dsmash and upsmash.
Lucario isnt that bad but it is important to try and kill him early which is actually pretty freaking hard. Id say its one of our harder matchups for sure.
@saviors: DK has the tools to avoid the grab in his bair and upB. Its not a realistic matchup but 100-0 means there's no chance and that's not the case at all. My point is they have it as the worst matchup in the game. Fox vs sheik is worse. Ganon vs sheik is worse. DDD vs Bowser is worse (maybe). MArth vs Ness is worse. And the list goes on. DDD vs DK is by no means the worst matchup in the game.
Dcold
Smash Lord
I guess we're talking about MK now.
Mind explaining what gives you trouble?
I always felt the Olimar match up is pretty even, varying from 45:55 to 55:45, especially cause Nair covers a good chunk of Olimar's defensive options.
I'd imagine jumping around near or in his pivot grab range (to have access to your best option almost all the time) to be kind of effective.
In the end it basically comes down toa guessing game of "will Sheik land within my pivot grab range now without using her double jump / will Olimar see my Nair coming and grab me out of it".
Judo777
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Well there are a couple reasons why this matchup is hard IMO. First of all you have to approach. No matter how well u use needles if thwe olimar throws his pikmin right he can make his pikmin absorb ur needles and eventually you have to approach. On a side note yes nair is a good approach if u follw up with jabs but there are a few problems with the soft nair jabs approach. One if u jump most oli just run away and pivot grab which u cannot stop if u jump. you can choose not to jump within range but then ur back to square one. Also if they see u coming for nair in time they can just upsmash and swat u right out of it.
Granted the matchup becomes much easier once you finally do get inside olimar and you can juggle him and chase him pretty well. Now comes my biggest problem yea you can chase him and juggle him but the oli i play does this really annoying thing to break my strings. Hes really good with that whistle super armor. Seriously if he is having trouble getting back to the stage or to the ground he'll just whilstle his way down to the ground. He can afford to take the damage cause hes bigger than us and kills way earlier. This also helps prevent gimps cause he can super armor ur hits.
It becomes extremely difficult to try and space and time ur aerials around airdodges super armor and the fact that he might aerial you and if hes got like a yellow or red pikmin hes gonna stuff you. and juggling him is ur best oppertunity in the matchup.
The only saving grace in this matchup is the chain. As you know only olis grab can break the chain so if you can catch him offstage with the chain then just put the chain barely outside his getup attack range oli cant do a thing to get back if u use it right. the only thing he can do is time his super armor around u. So u can rack up alot of damage but this is much easier said than done.
All that said the other pain in the *** for this matchup is where the hell do you CP olimar? All of the stages that sheik loves oli is nasty on too. If he gets control of the bottom platform on norfair you are in alot of trouble. Halberd is one of his best stages cause is purple upsmash kills at like 50. His bad stages arent even horrible. Yea frigate orpheon he cant recover from one side but neither can u and oli is great at stage control and at frigate he gets tons of purple and yellow pikmin which are IMO the best colors for oli. Japes is a bad oli stage but its also bad for sheik cause oli kills easier than we do horizontally. And the oli i play regularly is amazing on that stage cause he likes it. RC is about my only choice and thats where he bans so idk where to go. Oh and BF is olis best neutral.
Dcold
Smash Lord
Dabuz, P^S[i think he is logic now] L Cancel, and Weroup. You would think we would easily CP RC or Frigate, wouldn't you think? Well the problem is, probably every Olimar knows those stages the best. Dabuz cps frigate. L Cancel CPs RC. Same with P^S, really limits the places we can take them that would be less hectic for us. Can't go to Halberd because he can destroy us there. I've been thinking about Lylat as a maybe. But i'm thinking BF [just been having the feeling] since we can run from their camping. And we can chain camp them there.
I'm 2-0 on L Cancel's Olimar in Sheik vs Olimar. 1-1 in Peach vs Olimar, 0-1 in Marth and Falco vs Olimar.
It's a bad matchup for Sheik, definitely, but it isn't a terrible one. It is, however, really really aggravating, on the level of Diddy Kong. Don't bother CPing stages like Frigate, just edgeguard Olimar effectively.
It's a bad matchup for Sheik, definitely, but it isn't a terrible one. It is, however, really really aggravating, on the level of Diddy Kong. Don't bother CPing stages like Frigate, just edgeguard Olimar effectively.
Dabuz
Fraud at Smash
whoa...how does shiek edge guard oli effectively when oli can whistle all of shiek's moves?
Super-armor doesn't last the entire duration of Olimar's whistle. It's similar to baiting for an airdodge from anyone else.
stealth3654
Smash Lord
I'm guessing that we want to rediscuss the Oli match-up?
choknater
Smash Obsessed
i get off on olimars still
Oli's don't get me like that I've always gone pretty even.
Judo777
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the one issue with baiting airdodges is that with airdodges we can see the vulnerable frames much easier. I'm not sure for how many frames you are vulnerable after an airdodge but olimar is only vulnerable for 4 frames after whistle and it only takes 2 more frames to whistle again so that gives us six frames to react in and its hard to tell exactly when those frames start and end.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
i still nair jab all day lol
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He shoves a rainbow in your face... how much more obvious do you need the clue to be?
Btw guys, it has a 20 frame duration, with the super armor beginning on frame 2 and lasting up until frame 17. On frame 17 he becomes vulnerable to knockback. Keep in mind that you'll have a 6 frame window to attack him between consecutive whistles if he chooses to do so. That's plenty of time to attack him so long as you've got the gist of the timing down. Just don't hesitate.
In other news, I'm willing to bet that Sheik can dash attack between consecutive grabs and fsmashes in the same way Sonic can dash grab in the same situation. *shrugs*
Bsrk_
Smash Ace
Edguarding will win you this matchup if you are able to get him in this position_ Having come from previously maining Olimar i feel that this matchup is in Oli's favour by around 10 so 50 - 40 Oli_
Whistle gets him back on the stage effectively, he can outcamp Shiek and bait pivot grabs_ He plays a fairly strong ground game and most Oli's won't be fooled into playing air games if their opponent has a better air game then them_ With whistle + PS i find Oli to hold his own on the ground_
BF is Oli's best neutral imo and i used to love getting taken there_ Platforms give him alot to work with if you let him under you_ On the flip side, platforms can work fairly well for Shiek if you manage to juggle him and keep him above you_
If you're up against an average Oli then FO is a good choice for a CP stage_ Be wary, as mentioned before, that most Olimars will be familiar with this CP because of getting taken there alot_ Rainbow ride is another viable option if they don't ban it as they are being forced to stay airborne alot_ Keep in mind that whistle will most likely be abused alot on this stage_ Port Town Aero drive is a good option if it is allowed in your state as the lack of grabbable ledges and constant motion will keep Olimar in a fairly vulnerable state_ You can pressure him harder, keep him airborne and stop him plucking pikmin alot better on this stage imo_
I would say to ban Luigi's Mansion or Halberd_ Suss out your Olimar player first before deciding which stage to ban as some have there preferences_ LM lets him camp hard and forces the approach, high ceilings are great for vertical kill characters, alongside the mansion cielings, Oli's bthrow will make easy work on most people_ It also has good recovery options and sharking_ Halberd of course is great for it's low ceiling so make your ban depending on what type of kill character you are_ Your best option for CP's are stages which you know are going to keep him moving around alot and allow you to get under him via platforms_
My biggest issue with this matchup is the fact he can outcamp and most good Oli will be able to bait the throw and keep grounded against you_ You're moves come out faster i'm fairly sure so once you're inside his wall then you need to keep him juggled, airborne or edgeguarded as much as possible_ jab > grab is a good option if you can manage the approach_
Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong with anything as i haven't had the chance to vs any Olimar mains since switching to Shiek as i was the only Olimar main in my state (and kinda made people hate him alot)
Whistle gets him back on the stage effectively, he can outcamp Shiek and bait pivot grabs_ He plays a fairly strong ground game and most Oli's won't be fooled into playing air games if their opponent has a better air game then them_ With whistle + PS i find Oli to hold his own on the ground_
BF is Oli's best neutral imo and i used to love getting taken there_ Platforms give him alot to work with if you let him under you_ On the flip side, platforms can work fairly well for Shiek if you manage to juggle him and keep him above you_
If you're up against an average Oli then FO is a good choice for a CP stage_ Be wary, as mentioned before, that most Olimars will be familiar with this CP because of getting taken there alot_ Rainbow ride is another viable option if they don't ban it as they are being forced to stay airborne alot_ Keep in mind that whistle will most likely be abused alot on this stage_ Port Town Aero drive is a good option if it is allowed in your state as the lack of grabbable ledges and constant motion will keep Olimar in a fairly vulnerable state_ You can pressure him harder, keep him airborne and stop him plucking pikmin alot better on this stage imo_
I would say to ban Luigi's Mansion or Halberd_ Suss out your Olimar player first before deciding which stage to ban as some have there preferences_ LM lets him camp hard and forces the approach, high ceilings are great for vertical kill characters, alongside the mansion cielings, Oli's bthrow will make easy work on most people_ It also has good recovery options and sharking_ Halberd of course is great for it's low ceiling so make your ban depending on what type of kill character you are_ Your best option for CP's are stages which you know are going to keep him moving around alot and allow you to get under him via platforms_
My biggest issue with this matchup is the fact he can outcamp and most good Oli will be able to bait the throw and keep grounded against you_ You're moves come out faster i'm fairly sure so once you're inside his wall then you need to keep him juggled, airborne or edgeguarded as much as possible_ jab > grab is a good option if you can manage the approach_
Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong with anything as i haven't had the chance to vs any Olimar mains since switching to Shiek as i was the only Olimar main in my state (and kinda made people hate him alot)
Judo777
Smash Master
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Because ofc i know exactly what oli looks like on frame 17 of his whistle............ Unlike and airdodge where you stop flashing its hard to tell when he is actually vulnerable during that rainbow in ur face.
It has to be soft nair to jabs right? its a great approach but if you keep using they will just start upsmashing u when u try to nair them.
FO is a good CP but remember he gets lots of purples and yellows on that stage which can be annoying.
Oli is even
the problem with olimar is that we have no reliable approaches and we kinda have to approach eventually. He can KO us much faster than we can KO him, however we do have the edgeguard advantage. the problem is that most of our KO attacks send him at a trajectory that doesnt require him to grab the ledge.
The good thing is that no player is perfect which means even though olimar has the capability to stop and punish all our initial attacks, by baiting him with dash dances and all that fancy stuff we will be able to get through his defences and once we get the first hit olimar isnt too hard to juggle, especially since he has no reliable attack against a grounded opponent while in the air.
im going 55:45 olimar at best though
The good thing is that no player is perfect which means even though olimar has the capability to stop and punish all our initial attacks, by baiting him with dash dances and all that fancy stuff we will be able to get through his defences and once we get the first hit olimar isnt too hard to juggle, especially since he has no reliable attack against a grounded opponent while in the air.
im going 55:45 olimar at best though