Sheikah Survival Guide: A Sheik Match-up Thread

[-dMT-]

Dude. Why would you ever even need to challenge Falcon in an aerial game, EVEN if his aerial game was somehow better lol.

It's called an ftilt. Just walk around with it nest time you play a CF and see what it does for you. O and his jab game? Crouch, dtilt. He can't hit you with jabs. IF he ever gets em off. Simple SDI away and bring out ur own jabs. They will eat through after his 2nd jab and before gentleman or another jab > straight from CF. Please don't underestimate Sheik's close range ability if anything. I know for a fact not enough of us Sheik's use jab nearly enough.

As for CF's heavyness. He's top heavy, due to his fall speed. Nothing a fresh tipped usmash from an ftilt can't fix. O and the same fall speed that makes him top heavy, makes him side-screwed when you add to it his dumb recovery.

80-20 because there are plenty of things Sheik has that CF cannot answer, and the opposite cannot be said.

It's jus like the vs Fox arguments. Fox can do a lot versus Sheik if you let him. Heck I think I'd hate fighting vs a Fox using anyone else. I never care though because I just ftilt lock and kill. I stick to what works and in doing so seal the enemies skill.

Falcon can be divine in the air all he wants, if I stick to the ground and punish his not-so-easy-to-space aerials and force ground approaches that I can eat with ftilt, CF is gonna choke.

 

[Zankoku]

I don't think the difference "isn't that large" between Falcon and Sheik. I'd even go as far as to say that if you're having trouble recovering safely then there's something wrong with you.

 

[-Mars-]

Dude. Why would you ever even need to challenge Falcon in an aerial game, EVEN if his aerial game was somehow better lol.

It's called an ftilt. Just walk around with it nest time you play a CF and see what it does for you. O and his jab game? Crouch, dtilt. He can't hit you with jabs. IF he ever gets em off. Simple SDI away and bring out ur own jabs. They will eat through after his 2nd jab and before gentleman or another jab > straight from CF. Please don't underestimate Sheik's close range ability if anything. I know for a fact not enough of us Sheik's use jab nearly enough.

As for CF's heavyness. He's top heavy, due to his fall speed. Nothing a fresh tipped usmash from an ftilt can't fix. O and the same fall speed that makes him top heavy, makes him side-screwed when you add to it his dumb recovery.

80-20 because there are plenty of things Sheik has that CF cannot answer, and the opposite cannot be said.

It's jus like the vs Fox arguments. Fox can do a lot versus Sheik if you let him. Heck I think I'd hate fighting vs a Fox using anyone else. I never care though because I just ftilt lock and kill. I stick to what works and in doing so seal the enemies skill.

Falcon can be divine in the air all he wants, if I stick to the ground and punish his not-so-easy-to-space aerials and force ground approaches that I can eat with ftilt, CF is gonna choke.

Lol there is no reason for you to preach to me Sheiks strengths, I am more than aware of them. However an 80-20 matchup would be defined as an unwinnable matchup.......and walking ftilts do not just completely shut down Falcon....sorry to break it to you.

What if Falcon simply decides to run up to your walking ftilt and shield? Then he uses an OoS frame 3 jab? Lol just because Falcon sucks doesn't mean that the players playing him are morons.

He doesn't have horrible mobility....it isn't like he's never going to be touching you with a jab, uair, or nair.

I mean really I wish Sheik had as many walls as your making it seem like I honestly do.....but she just......doesn't.

 

[Zankoku]

What if Falcon simply decides to run up to your walking ftilt and shield? Then he uses an OoS frame 3 jab?

Are you serious? The only way that OoS jab is gonna be frame 3 is if he runs up and powershields, in which case I'd just tell you to start mixing up with some really easy grabs that he's setting himself up for by running in trying to time a powershield.

 

[-Mars-]

Obviously. The point i'm trying to make here is that ftilt is not some brick wall that Falcon can't work against.

Oh and Sheik's recovery is not much better than Falcon's. I find it comical that you would think that.

 

[-dMT-]

lol... Falcon will have a LOT of trouble getting past something as simple as an ftilt walk from Sheik. Experience guy. i'm not making this stuff up. I have played a lovely amount of CFs. Not just nubs too mind you, I'm not ignorant enough to count randoms.

If he has so much trouble versus things as simple as needles, ftilt walk and chain.... then he isn't gonna like the MU at ALL.

I'm not saying Sheik has awesome walls. Of course she doesn't in general. Against CF though, one can argue that she does. Thus my point in the MU being very bad fo CF. We have Fox listed as 80-20? Fine.. I'll be more sensible and say its 75-25.

Obviously. The point i'm trying to make here is that ftilt is not some brick wall that Falcon can't work against.

Oh and Sheik's recovery is not much better than Falcon's. I find it comical that you would think that.

The point that matters is... what does CF have against Sheik's recovery?

 

[saviorslegacy]

Just use Chain.

K, match over.

 

[-dMT-]

lol... A Sheik should NEVER lose to a Ganondorf, Link or CF...

Only situation where this should happen is if there is a rather large gap between the players' skillls, with the Sheik player being the lesser one. Against those 3 guys, ALL that the Sheik player has to do is be aware of what he has against those 3 characters and they will have GREAT trouble getting past it.

There. I said it.

 

[Judo777]

I agree. That being said Legan is a beast and might very well **** you. But if that happens that is simply because Legan is alot better than a large amount of the community. His link is absolutely sick.

 

[choknater]

I bet I can beat Legan :D

Why are we discussing easy matchups lol. Diddy Kong next!!!

 

[stealth3654]

Lol. I just wanted to get through the tier list. If everyone is fine with Diddy Kong, we can rediscuss him next.

 

[Dcold]

We should rediscuss almost all of those mus that say 60/40 since none of them can compare the the MK matchup really, except probably Pikachu because of the cg.

 

[<π]

I'm with ankoku on this one. 80-20 is silly IMO for falcon; but 60-40 is just as rediculous.

His speed and bait game are good once he gets inside of you he can rack damage. he can kill us way lower than we can reliably kill him. a good falcon should be alive way longer than 150 versus sheik I think minus gimps. and with good DI... gimps shouldn't come easy.

That said falcon is horrible. his approaches are lack luster and are completely reliant you making horrible mistakes.

Sheik's jab is better than falcon's frame two with more follow up options.

Shei'ks recovery is better than falcons BY far! if they grab the edge for whip you force them off with vanish if they don't you whip. whip greately increase shiek horizontral speed to the edge making her pretty much instantly grab the edge. so all of those case where falcon isn't close enough to the edge you can instan;t get back in stead of having to go through some long animation. up B is invulnerable long before the hit box that alone is leagues better than falcon.

 

[-Mars-]

Here's how anyone with half a brain edgeguards sheik.

Grab the ledge. If you vanish they ledgedrop or getup and punish on reappearance It's very simple just no one actually cares about the Sheik matchup so they don't even worry about grabbing the ledge most of the time.

 

[saviorslegacy]

65-35

That is how I feel.

 

[Judo777]

Here's how anyone with half a brain edgeguards sheik.

Grab the ledge. If you vanish they ledgedrop or getup and punish on reappearance It's very simple just no one actually cares about the Sheik matchup so they don't even worry about grabbing the ledge most of the time.

there are 2 other things to consider on gimping sheik. if she is close enough to hit you with the vanish when u are on the ledge then you have to get off and she can therefore grab the ledge on reappearance. The other thing to consider s that sheik can cancel the lag on her vanish if she can appear the right height after her vanish. I know that can be punished but it gives you less options.

Also its risky but if they are hell bent on hitting sheik when she reappears she can just appear at the ledge and if you moved to go punish her she gets the ledge. If you grab the ledge and she is close enough to hit you with vanish then there isnt alot you can do and if she isnt close enough its still a guessing game.

 

[Dcold]

there are 2 other things to consider on gimping sheik. if she is close enough to hit you with the vanish when u are on the ledge then you have to get off and she can therefore grab the ledge on reappearance. The other thing to consider s that sheik can cancel the lag on her vanish if she can appear the right height after her vanish. I know that can be punished but it gives you less options.

Also its risky but if they are hell bent on hitting sheik when she reappears she can just appear at the ledge and if you moved to go punish her she gets the ledge. If you grab the ledge and she is close enough to hit you with vanish then there isnt alot you can do and if she isnt close enough its still a guessing game.

Whoever is on the ledge is in a better position, yeah they have to get off if you're that close but remember if you're that close there is no way you will auto snap to the ledge. Meaning they can hit you X_X. If they get off to punish you, they are the anxious type, it would be smarter to stay on the ledge until you know Sheik is fully commited to going on stage. ANd with reducing the lag, doesn't mean you can't get hit. Sheik is still pretty vulnerable even though her recovery is decent.

 

[Judo777]

Whoever is on the ledge is in a better position, yeah they have to get off if you're that close but remember if you're that close there is no way you will auto snap to the ledge. Meaning they can hit you X_X. If they get off to punish you, they are the anxious type, it would be smarter to stay on the ledge until you know Sheik is fully commited to going on stage. ANd with reducing the lag, doesn't mean you can't get hit. Sheik is still pretty vulnerable even though her recovery is decent.

I think you misunderstand me. When you are close enough to do this there isnt alot ur opponent can do let me explain.

If you cannot tether it is because the opponent is already on the ledge. If you are close enough if you perform a vanish right on top of the ledge (granted you will not auto snap) by the time the vanishes hitbox comes out their invicibility should be gone because they were on the ledge early enough to stop you from tethering. The only way for them to not get hit by vanish at this point is to get up and regain invincibility from a ledge roll or something of the sort. Because they have to get off the ledge there is a large enough gap between the hitbox coming out that you can now appear on the ledge and grab once they get off.

There maybe some characters that can stay on long enough to prevent u from grabbing over 100% when they perform a slow get up but im not sure.

 

[-Mars-]

I'm not saying Sheik's recovery is bad, as long as you DI up you still have tricks like breversing so you can bair, using needles......but her recovery is average if your opponent grabs the ledge.

Now if your opponent doesn't grab the ledge then it's incredibly easy for you to make it back safely which is always a relief.

 

[-dMT-]

65-35 is still ridiculous. 70-30 for Falcon.

Move on to the more important MUs now? Like the wide variety of MUs NOT obviously in Sheik's favor?

 

[Dcold]

Can we discuss a more important matchup? Like ones that are more common to show up than Falcon? Mario, Lucas, Ness, PT etc. etc. etc. You get the point.

 

[stealth3654]

Sure. Who do we want to rediscuss? I'm leaning towards Diddy Kong myself.

 

[Dcold]

Anyone who we're more likely to play in a tourny match is fine with me. Even lower tiers, but bottom tier is lol

 

[choknater]

i'm down with diddy kong

 

[-dMT-]

Diddy Kong. Definitely.

 

[stealth3654]

Alright then.

We are going to rediscuss Diddy Kong.

Go!!

 

[-dMT-]

Don't underestimate Diddy when he doesn't have his bananas!

The bananas get extremely annoying and many of us may just as well choose to remove any bananas we get our hands on from the stage. At that point Diddy isn't necessarily at a disadvantage. He is still incredibly fast and has great frame data and priority.

 

[Dcold]

But the fact of the matter is, no nanas for Diddy = Better for you. He can't approach since needles destroy him coming close. If he camps with his peanut gun you can break those. Without his bananas it's much easier, but not easy though.

 

[-dMT-]

But the fact of the matter is, no nanas for Diddy = Better for you. He can't approach since needles destroy him coming close. If he camps with his peanut gun you can break those. Without his bananas it's much easier, but not easy though.

I wouldn't be trying to camp a Diddy who doesn't have bananas. I'd be all up in his face so he doesn't have time to pull any out...

As far as I'm concerned, no Diddy worth mentioning would ever be forced to approach without bananas.

 

[Zankoku]

I agree, Diddy without bananas is extremely vulnerable and should be pressured and juggled until he either dies or pulls out some bananas. The idea is to camp Diddy with needles until he messes up and throws away his bananas.

 

[saviorslegacy]

People are to afraid of Banana's. The key to fighting Diddy is to control the Banana's.
If you do that you pretty much put a wound in his side.

Here is a list of Banana combo's/tricks that you can use on him:

If you air dodge into a Banana you can pick it up and throw it the instant you grab it.

You can Nair/Fair/Bair to pick up Banana's.

You can Dash Attack to pick up Banana's.

Grab Banana> SH throw Banana up> f-tilt lock> let Banana hit him if you are lucky (combo continues below)
Banana hits> space for a Swan/FSmash/USmash
Banana miss's (each color is another option)> u-tilt> grab Banana> jump> throw Banana> Dash Attack/DACUS
grab Banana> throw Banana> Needle's
grab if they slip onto the Banana upon release> almost whatever you want

Banana> DACUS/Dash Attack

jump over his head> drop (not throw) Banana> Chain (rare but you can do it)
I have been throwing Needles near the ledge with a Banana in my hand and a Diddy will try to Banana glide toss and follow up with a Dash attack. What I do is shield, jump, drop Banana and deploy the chain. Some times he will slip behind you and he will get reverse chain locked... until you reach his Banana though. <,< Then you slip and get punished, but who cares you already destroyed the little guy.

Banana> Needle's (does 22%)

Dash Throw> Grab

back flip> drop (not throw) Banana> Nair to pick it up> throw Banana> Dash Attack/Needles

back flip> drop Banana> Bair them into Banana (weak hit)> almost whatever you want



When controlling items you have to keep a jugglers mind set. Toss things straight up and have a set time for when they come back down. When you know they are going to come back down use them to aid in comboing.
Here is how long each Banana is in the air when using different toss's:

Banana toss up while on the ground is airborne for 2.5 seconds.

Banana toss up in the air is airborne for 2 seconds.

Banana dropped from a short hop takes 1 second to reach the ground.

Banana dropped from a full hop takes 1.5 second to reach the ground.

Banana thrown down from a full hop takes 1 second to reach the ground.

Banana thrown down from a short hop takes .5 second to reach the ground.

Jumping and throwing to the side barely influence's the distance. Stick to throwing them on the ground.


Now here is a useful trick to keep a Banana with you while you space with Airials.
(stolen from Link)
Jump> drop (not throw)> airial
The airial will make you grab the Banana again but you will also be performing an attack.

That said you can do these combo's:

jump> Banana drop> Bair/Nair/Fair (regrabs Banana)> throw Banana> almost whatever you want

f-tilt decay> USmash works at 81%.










I removed something that I thought was dumb.
A few other things are a lil dumb.... but not as dumb as what I removed.....

 

[Zankoku]

Wow, did I call it or did I call it?

(3:42:00 AM) marsulas: so in your opinion don't even try to use bananas just stay the **** away?
(3:42:53 AM) Ankoku: Use bananas if you're at the advantage
(3:43:03 AM) Ankoku: don't try to shift advantage when Diddy has bananas
(3:43:09 AM) Ankoku: it's akin to playing with fire
(3:43:19 AM) marsulas: gotcha
(3:43:40 AM) Ankoku: You'll either immediately gain banana + possible advantage, or lose half your stock
(3:44:36 AM) Ankoku: Well, saviorslegacy might think going for the 50-50 is a good idea
(3:45:12 AM) Ankoku: it's a promising reward : \
(3:45:32 AM) marsulas: lol

 

[-dMT-]

If I ever get my hands on those bananas, I toss them OUT. His dash attack already makes it so much easier to pick up bananas. Add to that the guy who mains Diddy is bound to know how to deal with bananas MUCh more than you.

Diddy with 2 bananas under control - Camp needles until you can get your hands on one safely and then remove it
>
Diddy with 1 banana under control - Apply more pressure, but maintain the primary objective as obtaining control of the banana, and ONLY to again remove it.
>
Diddy w/o bananas - Stick to the frikkin chimp like there is no tomorrow, and do your best to never let it reach 2 bananas again.


This is my mindset going into a fight versus Diddy.
Just as Ankoku said, trying to control bananas vs Diddy is very risky. Although it CAN be rewarding, i can also accelerate your defeat.

 

[Dcold]

Diddy with one banana is harder for me than Diddy with two bananas

Reasons: Diddy with one banana ALWAYS has his banana with him, won't let you get it. With two, they have to worry about both bananas, and if they try to use both, i can capitalize on it.

Maybe it's just me, but i prefer fighting a Diddy using both of his bananas rather than one using two bananas,

 

[-dMT-]

Diddy with one banana is harder for me than Diddy with two bananas

Reasons: Diddy with one banana ALWAYS has his banana with him, won't let you get it. With two, they have to worry about both bananas, and if they try to use both, i can capitalize on it.

Maybe it's just me, but i prefer fighting a Diddy using both of his bananas rather than one using two bananas,

All you need to do is read his banana throw and now its your banana. Then you toss it.

When he has 2, even when he throws one your way, he usually will have the 2nd one within reach and will quickly gain control and use it.

Going from phase 1 > 2 is harder than going from phase 2 > 3, if you look at my approach to the match as a 1-2-3. When he has 1 banana, I see only an opportunity to take it. The reason i still apply more pressure is, Diddy likes to take out 2nd banana while holding first, and that's not desirable for Sheik.

 

[<π]

I know I posted this some where. you can pick up banana's while running without doing a dash attack.

 

[rathy Aro]

You gonna explain how?

 

[Zankoku]

Stop running and then press A.

 

[<π]

yeah you can pick up item in the sliding animation; you know how you slide to a stop? yeah. help a lot in the match up. dash attack way too slow if you aren't gonna hit with it as well.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Wow, did I call it or did I call it?

(3:42:00 AM) marsulas: so in your opinion don't even try to use bananas just stay the **** away?
(3:42:53 AM) Ankoku: Use bananas if you're at the advantage
(3:43:03 AM) Ankoku: don't try to shift advantage when Diddy has bananas
(3:43:09 AM) Ankoku: it's akin to playing with fire
(3:43:19 AM) marsulas: gotcha
(3:43:40 AM) Ankoku: You'll either immediately gain banana + possible advantage, or lose half your stock
(3:44:36 AM) Ankoku: Well, saviorslegacy might think going for the 50-50 is a good idea
(3:45:12 AM) Ankoku: it's a promising reward : \
(3:45:32 AM) marsulas: lol

Not really... I say we have a 5% disadvantage.
see

I know I posted this some where. you can pick up banana's while running without doing a dash attack.

What Ankoku said.
On a side note..... if you SH air dodge and do the thing that AD HD was talking about you can throw the Banana back at him as soon as you catch it.