I don't even know what you're referring to with that chart, saviors. The 50-50 I was talking about is the risk you're taking in trying to forcibly steal bananas from Diddy Kong, not the matchup odds.
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Sheikah Survival Guide: A Sheik Match-up Thread
- Thread starter stealth3654
- Start date
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
I like plat stage against Diddy cuz I can throw bananas up there. you willl triff you you touch them while grounded through so watch out for like throws and tilts and stuff.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
... haha plat, triff? are you filipino?
Judo777
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,627
Saviors i have 3 questions about ur chart.
1 i wont actually ask this question cause know it will be a long discussion but it the advantage on mk question.
the next 2 i actually expect an answer dont bother with the first.
2 how is snake a harder matchup than mk? Snake isnt acttually that bad a matchup and is manageable.
3 when you refer to sheik and zelda in the lower thing you are implying that you can use both right? if so i have to assume the option exists that you can choose to not use either and just use one because i dont think that every matchup is easier with some use of zelda in the mix ie game and watch is significantly harder if u use zelda because she doesnt stand a chance.
this being said the Dk matchup is supposed to be harder with the use of sheik and zelda which makes no sense to me because as i said you can choose to not use zelda so it should be the same. This is void if you are expected to use both.
if you are expected to use both then i strongly disagree that that the gw matchup is the same with zelda because its much harder with zelda. the same goes for olimar simply because olimar rapesthe piss out of zelda and i dont really struggle to land kill moves on olimar.
1 i wont actually ask this question cause know it will be a long discussion but it the advantage on mk question.
the next 2 i actually expect an answer dont bother with the first.
2 how is snake a harder matchup than mk? Snake isnt acttually that bad a matchup and is manageable.
3 when you refer to sheik and zelda in the lower thing you are implying that you can use both right? if so i have to assume the option exists that you can choose to not use either and just use one because i dont think that every matchup is easier with some use of zelda in the mix ie game and watch is significantly harder if u use zelda because she doesnt stand a chance.
this being said the Dk matchup is supposed to be harder with the use of sheik and zelda which makes no sense to me because as i said you can choose to not use zelda so it should be the same. This is void if you are expected to use both.
if you are expected to use both then i strongly disagree that that the gw matchup is the same with zelda because its much harder with zelda. the same goes for olimar simply because olimar rapesthe piss out of zelda and i dont really struggle to land kill moves on olimar.
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
MK=... thanks for not making me answer it.
I actually stole this from a German guy and edited some of the SHEIK match ups.
I've changed my mind on a few MU as I have learned more about both Sheik and who you are fighting.
I also added that awesome BG.
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
*sigh* he we go again.
First one to link a MK main to this gets shot.
Why I think the match up is even/a slight advantage at FD:
#1 We have a projectile that penetrates everything he has and punishes his landings.
#2 Air camping doesn't work against Sheik. Plain and simple.
We have the second fastest jump in the game. combine that with Uair and you can hit MK between Dairs if he is spamming.
Other ways include Vanish. Time Vanish so that you are invincible while close to him. Make sure you cancel you reappearance.
A new way that I recently found out was to use the Chain. Simply jump to where you are semi below him, deploy hain and hit up on the analog. Don't hold B BTW.
If done correctly you will be out of punishing range and you will hit him with that electric end.
#3 We have GR stuf on him.
GR> grab
GR> Needle's
GR> DA
GR> DACUS
Not only do we have a CG that has an end over the ledhe but we have a very legit KO set up.
BF doesn't mess it up as much as MK mains like to think. They do realize that the parts where MK can't get GR> DACUS is the size of the platforms right?
Also, the platforms are tipper set ups. I have tippered MK's when they land on a platform from their air camping.
#4 We can Chain camp him. Which basically means a free 40%.
Play the percent game with Needle's and counter his air camping. You then force him to approach.
I prefer to start off by throwing a Needle. If they shield I charge Needle's. All ya gotta do is get 1 Needle on him and then Chain. It starts you off with a good lead.
#5 We have a good f-tilt lock on him that leads into a GR CG.
All in all, we have a LOT of things going for us.
However, MK can **** us off stage if we are not careful.
If he tries to go off stage after you make sure to use that tether.
If he is staying on stage you might wanna go with Vanish. Either way, it's not to awfully bad.
What really hurts us is that he is disjointed. Once he gets in close and is doing what MK's do best we are in trouble unless we act fast.
We need to get away from him somehow. Breathing room is a must.
If you can break his combo then that is good. You either want to jab or f-tilt on the ground.
U-tilt is a good anti air. So use it... sparingly because it can still be punished.
Well, that is might to sense on bullet points in this match up.
The match up is a ***** for both characters.
First one to link a MK main to this gets shot.
Why I think the match up is even/a slight advantage at FD:
#1 We have a projectile that penetrates everything he has and punishes his landings.
#2 Air camping doesn't work against Sheik. Plain and simple.
We have the second fastest jump in the game. combine that with Uair and you can hit MK between Dairs if he is spamming.
Other ways include Vanish. Time Vanish so that you are invincible while close to him. Make sure you cancel you reappearance.
A new way that I recently found out was to use the Chain. Simply jump to where you are semi below him, deploy hain and hit up on the analog. Don't hold B BTW.
If done correctly you will be out of punishing range and you will hit him with that electric end.
#3 We have GR stuf on him.
GR> grab
GR> Needle's
GR> DA
GR> DACUS
Not only do we have a CG that has an end over the ledhe but we have a very legit KO set up.
BF doesn't mess it up as much as MK mains like to think. They do realize that the parts where MK can't get GR> DACUS is the size of the platforms right?
Also, the platforms are tipper set ups. I have tippered MK's when they land on a platform from their air camping.
#4 We can Chain camp him. Which basically means a free 40%.
Play the percent game with Needle's and counter his air camping. You then force him to approach.
I prefer to start off by throwing a Needle. If they shield I charge Needle's. All ya gotta do is get 1 Needle on him and then Chain. It starts you off with a good lead.
#5 We have a good f-tilt lock on him that leads into a GR CG.
All in all, we have a LOT of things going for us.
However, MK can **** us off stage if we are not careful.
If he tries to go off stage after you make sure to use that tether.
If he is staying on stage you might wanna go with Vanish. Either way, it's not to awfully bad.
What really hurts us is that he is disjointed. Once he gets in close and is doing what MK's do best we are in trouble unless we act fast.
We need to get away from him somehow. Breathing room is a must.
If you can break his combo then that is good. You either want to jab or f-tilt on the ground.
U-tilt is a good anti air. So use it... sparingly because it can still be punished.
Well, that is might to sense on bullet points in this match up.
The match up is a ***** for both characters.
believe it or not MK isn't fast enough to air camp if you can bait any aerial you can hit him on reaction. despite this I don't fell the match is in sheik's favor... I had a long chat with virg and I want to retry the match up before I talk about things. but I only loose to the best MKs down here with my current knowledge of the match up. and that ussually isn't by extreme amounts either.
Bsrk_
Smash Ace
MK vs Shiek is not in Shieks favour end of story_ I won't go into a discussion until this topic is ready to be discussed fuller_ Back on topic_
Hmm Diddy Kong_ Depends on the player_ Some won't be too accustomed to not having bananas so i would suggest controlling those, on the other hand, players sufficient enough to survive without them should have the bananas removed_ Some players will set you up by falsely luring you with nanas so read your player before making any rash judgements_
Pressure him hard when he is not controlling the stage and edguard him as much as possible imo_ Once he starts getting some momentum you can be a stock down in no time_ Keeping him off the stage or banana free will cause them alot of frustration_
Try to avoid getting sucked into the mindframe of 'must control nanas'_ It will cost you the match if you forget who you are focusing on_
Hmm Diddy Kong_ Depends on the player_ Some won't be too accustomed to not having bananas so i would suggest controlling those, on the other hand, players sufficient enough to survive without them should have the bananas removed_ Some players will set you up by falsely luring you with nanas so read your player before making any rash judgements_
Pressure him hard when he is not controlling the stage and edguard him as much as possible imo_ Once he starts getting some momentum you can be a stock down in no time_ Keeping him off the stage or banana free will cause them alot of frustration_
Try to avoid getting sucked into the mindframe of 'must control nanas'_ It will cost you the match if you forget who you are focusing on_
j0s3ph
Smash Apprentice
In regards to the diddy matchup, I'm surprised no one brought up our single naner lock on him
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHHb_JRmmTk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHHb_JRmmTk
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
That's probably because a naner lock is hard to do and every time we do diddy the naner lock is breoght up.... but then ignored.
As for MK.....
That is why I don't like talking about that match up. Because everyone is against my way of thinking and it ALWAYS turns into a big ole argument.
The last time it happened was at the MK boards. The argument ended with this, "the match up CAN be in Sheik favor by 5% at FD but because there is no Sheik that implement everything and implement it properly the match up can only be discussed in theory and thus cannot be given a score due to having no Sheik in that kind of a meta game."
or something along those lines.
ps Judo, Joseph and rathy... y'all are confusing me with no avies. -_-
yes.
.
.
.
no.
I'd say 50 50 versus diddy but you have to understand the match up well. did can get momentum going so well so you can't let up and have to be playimg at your best the whole time. there is no real time to rest in this match up.
There are better projectiles that MK has to deal with and he does fine against them. This is useful, but not a matchup breaker.
I knew you would say something like that.
Firstly, I remember ankoku confirming that GR to dash attack and grab don't work. Secondly, why is mk letting you grab him? If he's getting grabbed frequently enough for these set ups to make a different, he's doing it wrong.
I know we can in theory..... but I'm still waiting to actually see this happen.
People seriously need to understand that being able to force someone to approach means absolutely nothing if they have an easy time approaching. If we were talking about zelda then this would be a plus, but in the case of a character who has the best approach options in the game (can't think of anyone better atm) forcing him to do what he wants to do doesn't make a difference.
All you did was list reasons why Sheik doesn't get ***** by MK. You didn't quite prove that its even. The only way I see this as even is if you actually can manage to chain camp him.
Better?
@saviors: Lets not derail the thread.... so yeah, just ignore my post for now. lol
On topic: I lost to two diddys in tourney yesterday. =( Though I lost pretty badly I actually felt like sheik had the advantage. I tried to do as dmt suggested and threw away the bananas while applying pressure. Sheik was fast enough to pressure him before he could properly pull out a banana and when its just diddy vs sheik she out ranges him and out speeds him. If he pulled out a banana while still under pressure it was easy to get rid of it. He almost never had two bananas when I was playing well, but I was nervous (no johns, nerves are a part of being a good player) so I was ****ing up ftilt locks and basic follow ups. Its pretty clearly in sheiks favor without bannanas. I couldn't find much use for needles because I was always in his face and charging needles meant I was giving him time to pull out a banana.
I wasn't playing the best diddys in the world so feel free to tell me why this strategy doesn't just **** diddy, because I really feel it does (even though I lost twice lol).
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
smart ellic lol
K, but I think we should have a 5 page wa-.... I mean I think we should discuss MK next.
Judo777
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,627
concerning MK
needle camping mk is not half as easy as you think. as i think i ave stated about 5 times before mk has 5 jumps...... he gets to make u guess when he is gonna land 5 times and unless u ar right next to him he can see if u are throwing needles and land or jump on reaction and its safe. Plus is the mks are having alot of trouble i will remind you that is down b can cancel all lag if performed at the right height.
secondly we cannot chain camp mk i dont care what you say. We cannot hit behind and above ourselves every 2 frames because the chain doesnt move that fast it takes much longer to occilate the chain. And until mk is in the position to poke you from above if he sees us retracting the chain he can punish on reaction. I also doubt that sheik can even stop an mk ftilt from behind.
Mks are great at not getting grabbed and believe me GRUST is amazing learn it it wins fights but us being able to KO at say 80% bring us about even with mk in killing power considering that if he hits us far enough offstage gimping becomes childs play.
GR to regrab is guaraneteed and great but you have to boost grab you can walk mks off of walk off stages.
oh and GR Needles is the biggest waste of a GR because if the mk just trys to jump and is holding up he will SDI and only get hit with one needle i have tested this. Thats a GR to 2% which is more worthless than a throw.
needle camping mk is not half as easy as you think. as i think i ave stated about 5 times before mk has 5 jumps...... he gets to make u guess when he is gonna land 5 times and unless u ar right next to him he can see if u are throwing needles and land or jump on reaction and its safe. Plus is the mks are having alot of trouble i will remind you that is down b can cancel all lag if performed at the right height.
secondly we cannot chain camp mk i dont care what you say. We cannot hit behind and above ourselves every 2 frames because the chain doesnt move that fast it takes much longer to occilate the chain. And until mk is in the position to poke you from above if he sees us retracting the chain he can punish on reaction. I also doubt that sheik can even stop an mk ftilt from behind.
Mks are great at not getting grabbed and believe me GRUST is amazing learn it it wins fights but us being able to KO at say 80% bring us about even with mk in killing power considering that if he hits us far enough offstage gimping becomes childs play.
GR to regrab is guaraneteed and great but you have to boost grab you can walk mks off of walk off stages.
oh and GR Needles is the biggest waste of a GR because if the mk just trys to jump and is holding up he will SDI and only get hit with one needle i have tested this. Thats a GR to 2% which is more worthless than a throw.
I like judo.
(lets just switch to MK since he is the only character we care about ATM)
Still I want to test my new thoughts on MK before I post about their effectiveness.
(lets just switch to MK since he is the only character we care about ATM)
Still I want to test my new thoughts on MK before I post about their effectiveness.
You are well aware that Sheik has a 2 frame jab that sets up into her grab correct? This is why I think it's funny when we talk about Sheik's grab release shiz on Wario and MK and people wanna claim that their impossible to grab. I don't see MK and Wario not geting hit by jabs.......so they will get grabbed...... which means they will die early.
Anyways back to Diddy. I think Ankoku's recent videos are a great indicator of how the matchup should be played. Iirc from what he told me he only uploaded the matches from the point where he had gotten comfortable with the matchup and knew how to approach the matchup. 45-55 sounds good to me....maybe 50-50. I really think a lot of Diddy's matchups are like this where if he gets the momentum he's insane but if not he isn't difficult to deal with. like <3 said you need to be on your toes at all times in this matchup.
Edit: Judo's post was excellent. I had never actually realized that we could walk MK off on those type of stages with GR to regrab....good shiz ma ***. Judo get at me on AIM sometime I would like to talk with you.
Yeah, you're right Mars. I'm just trying to keep the sheik boards from diving too deeply into pure theory brawl.
I didn't even know we had a cg on MK forget a walk off. lol I feel like I don't know anything about sheik these days. I'll just have to do a bit of research.
I didn't even know we had a cg on MK forget a walk off. lol I feel like I don't know anything about sheik these days. I'll just have to do a bit of research.
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
OMGSH!!!! I just realized that if we had a big enough wall we could infinite MK!!!!!!!
MAKE SHADOW MOSES ISLAND LEGAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MAKE SHADOW MOSES ISLAND LEGAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
j0s3ph
Smash Apprentice
^You can wall infinite on Delfino. I did it once in a friendly, got them to like 400% before the stage moved. Then they died trying to get onto the platform, not from me hitting them lol
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
What move did you use?
stealth3654
Smash Lord
I'm guessing the chain since no other move keeps them there that long... unless they have really bad DI.
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
Last time I checked Light was against the Chain.
It could have been jabs, but then the foe is an idiot.
To get out of rapid jabs against the wall just simply SDI into Sheik and push her out then quickly SDI out of the jabs and jump away to freedom.
Marth can simply SDI up and DS. lol
Judo777
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,627
I dont have aim mars sry lol
and the walk off on mk isnt half as hard as you think. Last toruney i went to a played 4 mks and counterpicked them all to CS seeing as how most of the time they ban FD. I got 2 walk off kills at 0% and 1 at 18% it was funny cause i was an entire stock down and i walked them off ftw.
and the walk off on mk isnt half as hard as you think. Last toruney i went to a played 4 mks and counterpicked them all to CS seeing as how most of the time they ban FD. I got 2 walk off kills at 0% and 1 at 18% it was funny cause i was an entire stock down and i walked them off ftw.
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
Brain= fried -_-
Forget what I said......
Forget what I said......
choknater
Smash Obsessed
what walk off kill are you guys talking about? and what is the wall infinite?
I think the walk off is grab release MK and then regrab with pivot grab until you grab release him in the blast zone. I think saviors wall infinite is bases on the same concept. And i think joseph's wall infinite is with the chain.
These are all guesses, because people never explain what they are talking about here. >=/
These are all guesses, because people never explain what they are talking about here. >=/
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
Mine does not have anything to deal with a grab.
However, it does involve buffering.
However, it does involve buffering.
j0s3ph
Smash Apprentice
My wall infinite was actually just rapid jabs. My opponent apparantly didn't know about sdi'ing. He was DK if I remember correctly, so it was somewhat harder to SDI out, but still.
ThreeSided
Smash Ace
Today, I accidentally did something interesting against a CPU diddy on BF. I knocked him a good distance off with Dsmash, and then tried to go for a Fair gimp, but I missed, and was forced to recover. Diddy had moved closer in by now. Trying to see if I could edgehog him out of his side-b so I could tether-regrab to edgehog him out of his up-b for the kill, I rushed for the edge, but held the analog stick to the side for too long. I ended up gripping the little lip below the edge. I sorta panicked and tried for the edge again but accidentally hit A as I jumped off the wall. The result was that I did a Fair in the perfect spot, knocking him out of his side-b RIGHT before he caught the edge, something I'm pretty sure you can't do with a walk-off fair. I then re-grabbed with the chain and edgehogged him out of his up-b.
I never really thought of edge-guarding from the lip. It might have come to mind once, but I probably disregarded it as unsafe. But here, it made good sense to grip the edge. Wall jump > fair was so fast, that I'm pretty sure we could react quickly enough to hit them out of the side-b consistently. If Fair has more priority/range than the side-b kick, then this might just be a plausible edge-guarding tactic, since you can't really effectively do something like this from the stage, because walk-off Fair would strike lower than the edge, and jumping it would probably require some dangerous fast-falling to do quickly. Think this could have any uses, or is it dangerous and pointless?
Also, Shiek being my new tertiary, my friend (who is much better than me at brawl) challenged me at the next tournament to face his Ike (a character he doesn't main but has been working on) with my sheik. That said, I noticed that you haven't talked about the Ike match-up yet... Think we could do that after diddy? It'd be a big help. =P
I never really thought of edge-guarding from the lip. It might have come to mind once, but I probably disregarded it as unsafe. But here, it made good sense to grip the edge. Wall jump > fair was so fast, that I'm pretty sure we could react quickly enough to hit them out of the side-b consistently. If Fair has more priority/range than the side-b kick, then this might just be a plausible edge-guarding tactic, since you can't really effectively do something like this from the stage, because walk-off Fair would strike lower than the edge, and jumping it would probably require some dangerous fast-falling to do quickly. Think this could have any uses, or is it dangerous and pointless?
Also, Shiek being my new tertiary, my friend (who is much better than me at brawl) challenged me at the next tournament to face his Ike (a character he doesn't main but has been working on) with my sheik. That said, I noticed that you haven't talked about the Ike match-up yet... Think we could do that after diddy? It'd be a big help. =P
stealth3654
Smash Lord
We already talked about Ike. I just updated the OP up to Ike. So you can look there for information on the match up.
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
Interesting, never really thought about that.
It could have its uses, but only time will tell to see if it is better than just fropping from the ledge and performing Bair.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
ah sweet, too good
boost grab... ill try it
boost grab... ill try it
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
Sheik does not have a Boost Grab.
Judo777
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,627
Boost Grabbing is listed in the brawls comprehensive guide to AT's as a true AT and therefore applys to every character in the game by definition.
Yes sheik has a boost grab and you have to do it to gr release infinite mk.