Sheikah Survival Guide: A Sheik Match-up Thread

[Tristan_win]

How did you manage to figure that out? The timing must be insane

Not really, the shield stun might be helping though with the timing.

 

[FrozenFire13]

I didn't know about the DACUS OoS. I usually just needle to edgeguard. But thats useful info, thanks Tristan.

Also, Ftilt = win.

Don't forget the grab release DACUS. It's difficult to do, but it's possible. If you're having trouble with it, you can just GR into dash attack.

 

[Crossjeremiah]

ive never lost to any good falcos... what im i doing right?

 

[Zankoku]

You're assuming that you're playing good Falcos.

 

[clowsui]

as soon as falco is offstage if you're feeling lazy:

1. if he doesn't have a jump and he starts to dip below the lip of the stage, hang the chain, instarape
2. if he has a jump and he decides to try and jump phantasm for the ledge (ie you notice him dipping down), hang the chain over the ledge, instarape
3. if he tries to phantasm on stage just reverse needle him after you powershield it

 

[choknater]

ohhh needles eh? that's a good idea.

usually i just stand in the middle of the stage and punish him with ftilts or usmash or something

but being near the ledge and waiting for phantasm -> needles = safer option since youre near the ledge

ill think abt that one

 

[stealth3654]

Falco's back air can gimp you if you're not careful.

Falco has to get near his opponents to really rack up damage, so space him with back airs.

Watch out for the jab cancel > grab > chain grab.

Needles hit Falco out of his side B. Needling him while he tries to do side B to recover can cause him to fall low enough so he has to use his up B, which basically means Falco dies.

 

[Rog~er]

crawling is your best approach in this match up.

 

[Villi]

Does Falco really have a jab > grab guaranteed against Sheik? I remember something about Sheik only getting a single frame of lag from soft landing and coupled with being a fast faller, I wonder if she might have enough frame advantage to jab out into ftilts with some prediction-reaction.

 

[Zankoku]

There are no guaranteed setups off of single jab on any character, except maybe Snake's jab on an aerial opponent.

 

[Villi]

Ah, I was speculating off info from the Peach frame data thread. I thought the frame advantages were higher than they are, but Sheik still shows advantage in Sheik's favor anyway, while Jiggz has +7 for Peach.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I have never actually played exceptionally good shieks that give me a ton of troubles, so I would like to think that Falco has a pretty good advantage in the match-up, but looking at what shiek could do I don't really think that would be the case.

First off, Falco lives by the CG and laser. Lasers to set up pretty much anything and are pulled out to close some distance. A good falco will not try trypically run up and try to get the grab. Our best methods of that are shieldgrabbing and jab > grab. They will certainly look for any chance during the percent range, but they shouldn't try force it. It's more of an early punishing method.

Phantasm is also another possible means of damage racking. Typically, it will be used for recovery, getting back on stage (really abused here) and getting out of tight corners.

Reflector is really only used occasionally outside of reflecting because we know if it gets powershielded we get punished.

After that you deal with a lot of approaches falco has namely the lasers for one. But SH dairs and SH nairs are other methods of approach. In close counters jab, ftilt and grabs are really abused. And I'm pretty sure ftilt and jab out ranges shiek's ftilt and jab.

Shiek overall can combo/edgeguard falco really well. But both have problems killing. I would almost think that shiek has the slightly harder time KOing because of slightly higher percents needed to do so compared to Falco.

Without CG I see it as even 50-50. With CG 55-45. If you factor in the possiblity for the CG to possibly lead to the offstage KO then 60-40. Even though the spike at the end can be teched, the Dair could be faked into just a SH and the shiek player gets tricked into thinking the Dair is coming and inputs the DI/SDI which will do a Fair and that leads to some edgeguarding to get the stock or more damage.

Overall, I would just label it 55-45 falco.

 

[Tristan_win]

... Falco chain grab into dair does not kill Sheik. It's very easy to jump and then up B back onto the stage or go for the ledge after a falco has spiked you. There's really no need to tech besides wanting to punish Falco immediately

 

[Exia 00]

I hate Falco

I don't know much about him...

You can crawl under his laser

Oh, watch out for his side step->jab. It's ridiculously fast

You can't out camp him. Stay close-mid range and punish w/e you can i guess. Don't stay too close cause he can CG you. You can tilt lock him for quite a while but only use it as a punish and don't rely on it too much. My favorite part of this match up is if you force him into a low recovery (Fair sometimes sends people at a diagonal trajectory) You can edgeguard, stage spike, footstool or gimp him. Also, needles are fun ^_^

I don't know what stage to take him to. Nofair makes some Maybe Green Greens.

+The blocks block his laser.
+Harder to CG (wind and blocks).
+Easy Fair, Bair, and Nair KOs and gimps because of the close blast zones.

Since the blocks stop you from needle camping, you are forced to fight at close-mid range.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

... Falco chain grab into dair does not kill Sheik. It's very easy to jump and then up B back onto the stage or go for the ledge after a falco has spiked you. There's really no need to tech besides wanting to punish Falco immediately

No it doesn't kill by itself, and recovery is possible, but so is a footstool. At that postion you are in the perfect place for falco to attempt a footstool. Now, I have not seen many Falco's do that, but the possibility is there. Plus, teching was always better as it prevents that situation of having to UpB back onto the stage or ledge. You go for the ledge all it takes is an edgehog to finish the stock off. If you get back on stage it goes back into an edgeguard and juggling situation.

@Exia: There are a lot of Counterpicks against falco that can mess him up and not. Pretty much any stage that is relatively flat and large gives falco a good time (JJ, BF, FD, SV, PS1, etc.). Any stage that isn't flat or has a lot of small areas really mess up falco (norfair, brinstar, lylat cruise, etc.). Green Greens I could see as a CP just for the sides and ceiling make it is easier to kill falco with. I personally think that lylat messes falco up the most. Mostly it I would say it comes down to preference and what you feel most confortable on. But as always Ban JJ against falco when the stage is allowed and when it's not available ban FD.

 

[saviorslegacy]

May I bring it to your attention that Sheik can f-tilt lock Falco to a quite high %. IMO, that counters the Falco CG taking it from 45-55 Falco to 50-50.

Hey Velox. Lets do a few quick matches and see what it points out.

 

[iLight]

sheik can only f-tilt lock him from like 12-50 something and finish with upsmash, anyone with good DI would break out slightly sooner i think and have it started on them slightly later

 

[Crossjeremiah]

No it doesn't kill by itself, and recovery is possible, but so is a footstool. At that postion you are in the perfect place for falco to attempt a footstool. Now, I have not seen many Falco's do that, but the possibility is there. Plus, teching was always better as it prevents that situation of having to UpB back onto the stage or ledge. You go for the ledge all it takes is an edgehog to finish the stock off. If you get back on stage it goes back into an edgeguard and juggling situation.

@Exia: There are a lot of Counterpicks against falco that can mess him up and not. Pretty much any stage that is relatively flat and large gives falco a good time (JJ, BF, FD, SV, PS1, etc.). Any stage that isn't flat or has a lot of small areas really mess up falco (norfair, brinstar, lylat cruise, etc.). Green Greens I could see as a CP just for the sides and ceiling make it is easier to kill falco with. I personally think that lylat messes falco up the most. Mostly it I would say it comes down to preference and what you feel most confortable on. But as always Ban JJ against falco when the stage is allowed and when it's not available ban FD.

thats why you di away from falco when he tries to dair. if he dairs you tech it(don't be stupid and let him dair you)

 

[Likeness101]

Pretty sure you can ftilt lock falco to around 50% and if they DI away dsmash?

 

[ddonaldo]

i think falco has the advantage but by only a bit. Falco can kill you faster, but you can gimp him better. Both good at racking up damage but the lasers and falco's jab as well as some of his other very high priority moves hinder the match for sheik 45:55

 

[choknater]

I like to say the matchup is 51:49 Falco instead of 55:45 ^_^

If you guys dont wanna tilt lock him, just do a few tilts into usmash, or dsmash if you are near the ledge and want to force a recovery

give him high damage, or just put him in a bad position

 

[rathy Aro]

sheik can only f-tilt lock him from like 12-50 something and finish with upsmash, anyone with good DI would break out slightly sooner i think and have it started on them slightly later

True, but afterward your ftilt is decayed and ftilt isn't like falco's cg where once you're past a certain percent it'll never work (i think) if you ftilt falco at like 50 you should get several more tilts in.

ftilt to upsmash is kinda easy on falco since decaying your ftilt takes no thought and ftilt outranges falco's options besides laser and fmash (i think).

And ppl stop saying you should crawl to approach falco. I'm assuming a silent laser won't hit a crawling sheik (if it can then never crawl) so falco may just jump off stage and back on and hit you with two lasers (this will hit anyone no matter how short).

tbh i don't play against good falco's or sheiks, but i play both characters and i have to say... hmmm...
sheik's ftilt > falco's downthrow: ftilt combos better for more percents, leads to kill moves, gets better as its decayed.
so sheik's killing power > falco's usually: I think sheik can kill with usmash consistently where as falco has to rely on usmash, fsmash, and an offstage bair to kill, which wouldn't kill as early.
sheik gimp>falco gimp (in terms of reliabilty): I doubt either will happen frequently, but sheik gimping falco is a little more likely than sheik getting hit by a lethal, offstage dair.
sheik's aerials>falco's: not really sure about this and I don't want to check frame data, but I think sheik's generally come out faster and have better range, still falco's dair is beastly.
lasers>sheik =(: Lasers are pretty much falco's bread and butter (deep in my subconscious that pun was intended). I don't really think there's any reliable way for sheik to truly deal with what is the best projectile in the game, plus silent lasers lead into pretty much everything, including kills. They give falco control of the stage and they're better than needles.

oh and, even though its really not that relevant Sheik DACUS>Falco's
But anyway, I'd give sheik the very minuscule, slight advantage. I do think its harder work for sheik than for falco though.

 

[Lazee]

lasers>sheik =(: Lasers are pretty much falco's bread and butter (deep in my subconscious that pun was intended). I don't really think there's any reliable way for sheik to truly deal with what is the best projectile in the game, plus silent lasers lead into pretty much everything, including kills. They give falco control of the stage and they're better than needles.

shiek CAN crawl under the lasers i played this match yesterday and he couldnt hit me with lasers unless he was offstage and if u get hit with an offstage laser while your onstage your an idiot...


i could probly add a lot to this since i used to main falco...
both are good damage rackers and have trouble killing(obviously) but i believe shiek has the edge in killing cuz all falco really has is Bair up and forward smash
fsmash is slow and probably his least reliable way of killing
if your at 100% be wary for laser to boost smashes thats the staple of falco gameplay for getting the kill.
on the otherside falco is incredibly easy to gimp if you have at least half charged needles but maximum is recommended.
most falcos will phantasm onto the stage rather than phantasm into the ledge,take advantage of this by throwing out needles when falco is parallel to the stage or slightly above it. this takes away the option of phantasming onto the stage which leaves him the option of firebirding and firebirding only which you can then choose the gimping move of your choice or simply grab the ledge.add in the tilt lock to uptilt to fair and thats 60% plus the opportunity to gimp on every new stock

honestly this isnt as close as people are calling it and im goin to say 60:40 shiek if she can get at least one gimp off 55-45 if not

 

[stealth3654]

That's it for this week. Next up is ROB.

Discuss!

 

[East]

I would like to digress for just a moment. I just did some testing with a comp set to run [evade] and three times in a row I Grab Released -> DACUS and the tip connected. Am I missing something or do we have a Grab Release to DACUS on G&W?

Questioned answered, nevermind.

uh... R.O.B. camps good, and stuff.

 

[Lazee]

Man...rob is annoying...maybe its cuz the only rob I ever play is hugs...or its just the match up,but this is not a good fight for shiek.. =/
We have NO reliable way of killing rob...
Gyro and laser stops dacus
His up b lasts forever so he can easily position himself to not get naired
His dsmash is fast than ours....umm we can combo him decently but that doesn't mean much when he's. At 150% cuz we can't land a kill move...idk if this is just because I play against the best rob in the country or this is just a bad match up for shiek =/
65-35 to the lame robot

 

[Crossjeremiah]

you can dacus unexpectingly, this what i do against, Teevees rob. i do alot well spaced ftilts, and nairs and AAA combos, and i throw needles when hes charging, and when he fires lazer i usually shield maybe i sidestep. none of sheiks air attacks have priority over robs nairs and bairs. you just have to space them properly and punish with most likely uair (auto canceled). they can be gimped but you have hit them like 3-5 times while they are off the stage. best kills you can get my bet is fsmashes or vanish kills. you can get ftilts into usmash if you know the percent data or know when you can do the ftilt usmash. or dacus right before your opponent lands.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Watch Armada against ROB's reaper to pick up some little nuances of the match up from a smart player.

ROB is telegraphed as **** in the air. He's got a blind spot the size of the moon underneath him thanks to his slow starting and punishable cooldown D Air and equally slow starting N Air. Sheik's U Air therefore manages to carve a niche in this matchup. F Tilt ender, aerial intercept or even a pseudo juggle trap. U Tilt also becomes more applicable because of this.

As far as killing, ROB actually has trouble. Primary kill moves will be F Smash (mediocre in every sense), N Air (telegraphed, slow startup and cooldown), B Air (less punishable due to it's propelling attribute) but is compensated by easier to see coming e.g. he'll have his back to you lol. D Smash is SDIable and it'll be as decayed as a two month old apple considering how ROB's spam it as a close range option. Your killing is pretty typical, big surprise but F Tilt to U Smash is your best option. That's especially important in this matchup because otherwise ROB can live a LONG time, heavy weight with a very good recovery.

Think of ROB close up of having two zones. There's the space just outside him where his F Tilt and D Tilt can space and you have trouble getting inside. But just past that range is where Sheik wants to be, where you can overwhelm ROB with your attack speed and he finds himself much more limited to the stereotypical spotdodge D Smash spam. D Smash can be shielded and punished and if you do hit it's, as I've said, SDIable (you should also learn to consistently SDI ROB's U Air). Soon as you get that F Tilt, he's in the air up close and there's **** all he can do about it.

ROB can outcamp you so you have to approach, but don't think of needles as simply a camping tool. They're still used for that easy 18%. As far as ROB's camping is concerned, running shield, SHAD, Brawl sheild mechanics rule. Laser's a constant annoyance but with good reactions it's impact is significantly lessened. Deal with Gyro the same. When ROB has the gyro, whilst it grants him a great glide toss and a good projectile, bear in mind whilst holding it that's all he has.

ROB's edgeguarding is great thanks to his B Up, F Air and B Air. Your primary aim is to stay off the edge completely, but in the event you do, DI high and get back on with minimalised risk. When knocked off with low knockback, chain near immediately before he's protecting the edge. Vanish is your last resort for recovery, it'll get punished hard. When ROB's recovering with Up B, he can't airdodge so single F/B/ N Air's to back to edge/stage and rinse repeat mean it's possible to build some effective damage, but it's doubtful you'll get the gimp.

 

[Crossjeremiah]

thanks for the tip about rob can airdodge during upb xD

 

[Xyro77]

discuss samus soon! i live near sethlon and light. they can provide GREAT info

 

[Lazee]

Reapers rob is garbage compared to hugs...
First off a smart rob will up b top of screen and then come down to prevent the airdodge situation
Idk ill try and get some vids of me vs hugs this weekend and u can see what I'm talkin about

 

[Blistering Speed]

I'm not saying that reaper's ROB is particularly good, I'm saying that Armada's Sheik is. Though I would really like to see some videos of his ROB, I talked to him recently and his 'adaptive playstyle' sounds like a welcome change from most ROBs. They seem to go from OS campyness to MaXXXpower or NL aggressiveness, one extreme to the other.

discuss samus soon! i live near sethlon and light. they can provide GREAT info

We're making a point of discussing the good characters first :D.

 

[stealth3654]

Since ROB has some trouble killing, watch out for his down and up throw. It can only kill at a really high percent (180% ish), but it's good to know that ROB can kill with this during a match. Sheik can rack up damage easily on ROB but has a hard time killing him. So when ROB gets to about 110%, switch to Zelda for an easy up smash kill.

 

[stealth3654]

Sorry for the double post.

Does anyone have anything else to add to the ROB match-up? Tips, strategies, match-up ratio, stage discussions?

 

[FrozenFire13]

The only thing that I was gonna suggest is mind games and bait the dair or airdodge and juggle. Seems to me like most everything has been stated. Is there really any stage that is particularly good counter? How bad is ROB out of the water at Jungle Japes? The high ceiliing seems like an issue though either way...

 

[Blistering Speed]

Mindgames shouldn't ever be factored in a matchup discussion, because it means you're outplaying your opponent.

And no, I don't recommend Japes, Sheik kills primarily upwards moreso then ROB and his air and ledge camping is a huge pain in the *** there.

 

[ddonaldo]

I like battlefield, sheik takes advantage of ledges alot better than rob. f-tilt pushes rob to ledge allowing for aerials thru ledges for follow ups. tipper thru soft stages allows for vertical kills since we all know ROBs recovery is amazing.

 

[stealth3654]

While you are off the ledge, watch out for ROB's lasers and gyro. They can kill you or gimp you if you are not careful. You are going to have to play kind of defensive in this match because you don't want to run into ROB's nair and bair. Attack when the opportunity presents itself.

If anyone else has anything to say, then say it. We are now moving on to Marth.

And.......Discuss!!!

 

[Darxmarth23]

Get into marths range. Its not what it was before, but getting in will help you win.

 

[Steel]

i know a lot about this match. ill provide input once i see some others post