Sheikah Survival Guide: A Sheik Match-up Thread

[iLight]

i see, well i still prefer FD just because its easier to set up the chain grabs there =], to each his own i guess

 

[slickmasterizzy]

lol metaknight mains. it takes like an hour to learn metaknight

 

[stealth3654]

Ok, I think that we pretty much covered the Snake match-up. So now we are moving on to King Dedede.

Discuss!!!

 

[Zankoku]

**** Dedede.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

I rather go Zelda against 3D.

Pretty much that's it.

 

[East]

King DeDeDe Match-up thread

I don't know why Ankoku hates the match-up so. I agree with Panda when he says that DeDeDe may in the end fall a few spots on the tier list because his moves are usually very telegraphed and can be read. He can't chaingrab Sheik, so in my opinion I think the only thing that you have to be incredibly careful of is your spacing.

 

[Commander_Beef]

That god**** F-tilt. . .

 

[Blistering Speed]

King DeDeDe Match-up thread

I don't know why Ankoku hates the match-up so. I agree with Panda when he says that DeDeDe may in the end fall a few spots on the tier list because his moves are usually very telegraphed and can be read. He can't chaingrab Sheik, so in my opinion I think the only thing that you have to be incredibly careful of is your spacing.

DeDeDe can shieldgrab any of Sheik's usual pressure and don't be misled into thinking DeDeDe doesn't have good grab options still just because he doesn't have the CG. D Throw techchase ***** and 16% from a B Throw is always an easy option. And isn't being careful with your spacing a given?

Needle camping is pretty applicable, considering DeDeDe's horrible ground and air speed, though one Waddle Dee limits or even stops it if it's between you and DeDeDe (make sure in any spare moment to knock off a Waddle if you feel it'll restrict you).

Chain is very effective in situations where he can't put out a Waddle, his huge size means SDIing out is a pain, as is manouevering around it.

F Tilt isn't that much of a problem, PS that **** and continue on.

Recovering Dedede's need to be punished hard. Harass him until he has to Up B and then punish accordingly when the super armour's gone.

Sheik:Dedede is most likely 40:60. I'll elaborate when I can be bothered.

 

[stealth3654]

Sheik is able to duck under D3's Bair, which is one of his main approaches. You can needle camp him until he throws out a waddle something or gordo. If he throws out a waddle and D3 is far enough away, you can hit the waddle to replenish your moves. Be wary when chasing D3 off the side of the stage (especially if he has more stock or percent than you do) because he can swallowside. When D3 is recovering, try to be unpredictable in your gimp game until he has to use his up B. Once he does, try and predict whether he will land on the stage or cancel the jump and grab the ledge, and punish accordingly. Also, be careful when recovering back onto the stage because one or two Bairs are enough to kill Sheik. You really have to play with a few, or no, mistakes in this match-up because if you do mess up D3 can put a hurting on Sheik.

I really do not know the best stage to take D3 to. But I know not to take D3 to Delfino, Halberd, or Battlefield. Delfino and Halberd because D3 can jump under the stage and harass you with Uair. On battlefield, D3 can hit above and through the platforms with a lot of his moves, and up tilt (which kills at about 100%) also hits through the platforms.

 

[clowsui]

dedede is so gay

just pick zelda for this one, imo

if you insist on playing sheik just try and be annoying, dash in and out, ftilt with a jab/grab/nair/dsmash mixup game, space outside ftilt range and powershield waddles...be careful of bair spacing because if he has a waddle directly in front then it's ineffective b/c at any space between him and the waddle is room to ftilt, grab, waddle again...dedede's spotdodge is ********, his airdodge is too. just try and keep him juggled a lot, sheik will have a more difficult time w/ this but in general bair and uair mixing up - the bair to cut through ADs. he's big, so if you master the footstool combo....well actually no one has LOL nvm. nah but really DDD is fat and ugly. maybe it's worth learning ftilt -> footstool -> bair -> reverse needle -> single needle-> DACUS

 

[Villi]

Ftilt waddle doos. lol

 

[stealth3654]

Is anyone else going to contribute before we continue on to the next character? We should really talk about which stage is good/bad for this match-up.

 

[Red Arremer]

I hope it's okay to post here, but seeing how we can't make threads... ;o

Bowser boards are discussing Zelda, but in combination Sheik, too, I guess:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211975&page=48

We'd appreciate the input of people playing Sheik and/or both. Thanks. <3

 

[stealth3654]

Last chance to post D3 match-up information. I don't really care right now about tactics since people already posted that. I just want a quick stage discussion before we move on.

 

[choknater]

DON'T MESS UP BECAUSE YOU DIE EASILY AGAINST DDD BECAUSE HE DOES SOOOOO MUCH DAMAGE

basically... it's kinda ilke the snake matchup...

You have to space perfectly and do stuff that DDD can't punish... and there's not a lot of options for that.

Okay, so what's DDD's basic stuff?
- waddle dee
- ftilt
- shield grab, bthrow/fthrow, (dthrow if he's feeling lucky to tech chase)
- utilt OMG WATCH OUT FOR UTILT
- dtilt
- dsmash for rolls, this move is better than u might think

Basically, all his options are crazy strong but slow enough for sheik to get around everything he does.

- Ftilt combo him like crazy, since he doesn't have any options fast enough to escape it even if you DONT do it perfectly. even if he jumps and air dodges, he doesnt have any aerial options fast enough to escape your punishment. even if he jumps and dairs, you can just wait and then uair/bair him

- needle camp his ***. what can he do besides throw waddle dees? ftilt or jab the waddle dees to DECAY YOUR FTILT (which is helpful of course) and also REFRESH YOUR KO MOVES

- zelda is good at this matchup so yeah, switch to her for kills. if you stay sheik and you have decayed attacks he will live to like 200 every stock LOL

- this matchup is in sheik/zelda's favor IMO, you just have to play it really well because it's DDD's super strong punishment that makes it a challenge. simple mistakes like getting shield grabbed to bthrow gets you that much closer to death. shild grab, 2 grab attacks, bthrow... thats over 20+ lol, a few more bthrows and you are in KO range for him

- champ grab combo - dthrow utilt (cuz if he air dodges, you can just grab again)

- improvise lol. lots of good spacing tools for this matchup and i can't go over all of them, just play against DDD a lot and you got this. if you are fast enough and can read shields well so you can grab him, this matchup gets easier and easier since DDD's options are so limited

- if he starts bair camping, just charge needles since his bairs will outprioritize everything sheik has

- DACUS if you are crazy/good enough

 

[Villi]

- utilt OMG WATCH OUT FOR UTILT

Roll -> up tilt is combo status rofl stay away!

I like taking him to YI. That's just me. It keeps him on the ground pretty well cuz he better not want to be on that platform. Zone him from underneath the platform with needles, aerials, and chain lock if you get him desperate.

 

[choknater]

roll utilt is too good

 

[Steel]

I don't think Sheik is very effective camping, even in this match.

I recommend aggro'ng him from behind. Approaching him with an auto-cross up bair is really good, can't get grabbed even if he shields it. From here apply your normal pressure. Though he can start catching on and pivot grab the approach.

Ftilt isn't really safe when used in front of him. A fully spaced ftilt only just BARELY outranges his grab. However, this will still naturally be one of your best damage rackers in the match. Decayed ftilt > Up smash kills somewhere around 110-120 i believe, though I don't know the exact percentages. If this combo becomes not an option then just go with Zelda, she does well here.

Edge guarding.. You can definitely take advantage here. Sheik is fast enough to cover all of his options. If he looks like he is going to go for the ledge then bring out the chain or just grab it and force him to use his up b.

Be really careful when you're off stage, he can gimp you pretty easily if you make a mistake.

And like chok said grabbing is very useful since he sits in his shield.

I think this match is around even with Zelda.

 

[choknater]

Hm yeah camping doesn't do TOO much, but you still really need to stay away from DDD esp. when he's trying to feel you out by spacing his ftilts and dtilts. Nothing wrong with running away and charging needles for this matchup.

And once again I highly recommend using Zelda at high percents. Zelda overall is very effective at any percent, too.

 

[Steel]

If he is pressuring you or the situation is neutral then yeah you can sometimes run away and charge... but if you hit him and can corner him do not give up the advantage you just gained for a needle.

 

[stealth3654]

Okay. I guess that's it for D3. Next on the list is Mr. Game and Watch.

Discuss!

 

[Blistering Speed]

- The only thing G&W has that can go through the chain is bacon, which is slow enough for you to have time to withdraw and shield. So use it on the ledge or just in a spaced proximity so he doesn't have chance to use it.
- Big surprise, needles ****. G&W cant bucket them and he has no comparable projectile to match it, so use 'em. G&W has pretty decent mobility however, so dont expect to be able to effectively camp him, it's just good for that extra percent when he cant do anything about it. If you're approaching unless persuing a positional advantage, you're doing it wrong.
- Not that I ever would use her, but Zelda isn't recommended for this match. G&W can keep her out and abuse her lack of punishment just outside her range like no other.
- Close range requires little variation, we're talking the usual jab and F Tilt mixups, F Tilt and U Tilt both finding an even higher then usual prominence for their anti-aerial capabilities.
- G&W's aerial game is ridiculous, but it's not unstoppable. F Air has good knockback and they may want to keep it fresh for offstage kills, but it's laggy upon landing so if you're staying primarily grounded (which you should be) then it's not a threat. Chok once said that you can jab out between the 5th and 6th hit of B Air, so be manly and do that if caught in it, but really you should be running away to turnaround needles to stop his B Air spacing and not getting hit in the first place. When getting U Air juggled, SDI down and to a side closest to offstage with airdodge to get out of the draft, at close range it's nothing special. N Air is sick, great reach, damage and priority so DI accordingly to avoid getting chained and just stay the hell away from him in the air. The times you should meet G&W are offstage (though if he Up B's appropriately then good luck with the gimp) and as a quick SHFF interception (F Air/N Air preferrably) as Sheik has the speed to pull this off.
- Thanks to bucket braking (a very effective momentum cancel) and a good recovery, off the side KO's are by far the slower. G&W weighs about as much as a photograph of himself, so U Smash kills very early. To get it, stage CP's where Sheik can get easy tippers through platforms are a must and of course keep the F Tilt appropriately decayed for the U Smash (though this almost seems unnecesary to add now, you should be doing this against everyone).
- Edgeguarding is a pain, though as I've already mentioned, the chain is **** because of G&W having no real answer to it. G&W can cover a large distance quickly with invincibility frames on the beginning of the rise, so smart Up Bing usually makes off the edge gimping highly impractical, though there is something to be said for the tether hog to spaced B Air.

 

[NJzFinest]

Hmm, wouldn't it be better to just DI upwards, out of the Bair and do an aerial instead of taking the hits and jabbing?

 

[Blistering Speed]

Hmm, possibly, I think it's dependant on what portion of the attack hits you. If you're hit at the beginning (which admittedly is the more likely option) then yes, SDI upwards to aerial is the best choice. To be honest, I just threw it in there as a lesser known fact more then anything.

 

[choknater]

DI/SDI up and behind him and bair/nair, it's too good.

Or just block all the hits and jab between the 5th and 6th hit, I think you can do that, I forgot... but it *****.

 

[stealth3654]

GaW can down throw > single jab > grab if you DI in front of him, so watch out for that. You can decide which side you appear on after being dthrown by DIing that way. You can also tech the dthrow if you get the timing down. GaW will be jumping a lot in this match, especially since you can pressure with needles. Since he will be jumping all the time, throw out a DACUS or two to get an early kill off of the top.

I would ban battle field for this match-up because GaW's aerial game is too good. He can really utilize the platforms by harassing people from underneath or by a dthrow tech chase on them. I would choose final destination for this match-up since it's easier to needle pressure, and GaW get's stuck under the lip on the sides if he is not careful.

If any of you guys have any videos of a match-up we already did or are currently discussing and you think you did a model job, post them here and I'll edit them into the OP so people can watch what to do in that match-up. Thanks .

 

[choknater]

You should pretty much always tech the dthrow haha. (If he uses another throw...




....




..

whatever)

 

[FrozenFire13]

Might I suggest Lylat? He seems to have trouble with the ledges there because of the stage teetering and such. He can stuck under it, or miss the ledge for an easy grab release kill. Plus there's platforms for Usmash kills. I play an experienced G&W regularly, and he almost always has trouble at Lylat.

EDIT: NJz, I don't like your sig. It makes me think there's bugs crawling on my screen, LOL.

 

[choknater]

I think Lylat is a good suggestion... I'll try to remember that, FrozenFire13

 

[FrozenFire13]

Well thank you Choknater. So....since nobody has said anything for a couple days.....are we movin on to the next character?

 

[Blistering Speed]

Did my post really **** that much?

*Edit* So this is less of an egotistical wasted post, why is no one commenting on F Tilt? Yknow, F Tilt?

 

[iLight]

My strategy on the g&w match up, my main experience fighting him is against UTDZac who is the best g&w in texas

Tactics I find effect for this match up:
Needle Camping
Running Power Shield
Grabs
Single/Rapid Jab
Tilts
Edge Guard
Release on Dacus on certain stages


Needles are useful but not as much as people might think because the second any good g&w strts getting punished at the end of his aerials he will just start using upB to cancel out of them. Use them only if he starts getting predictable.

Another good time to use needles is right when g&w tries to get on stage, because alot of them will try to ledge drop and then land on stage, so the second he tries to jump back on just pelt him with however many needles you have available till he does something new. People can eat quite a bit of damage like this and also sometimes open themselves up for a free punish if you take the ledge at the right moment.

Most smart g&w's will be mostly using aerials since that's where he has some of the longest range, most control, least lag on his moves. So the second he jumps in the air, shield dash towards him and try to get in close to him, just watch out for his aerial cancels, slow fall dair, upB.

If you get really good at this most of the time I just go for the grab or jab to grab because then you can get a second opportunity if they mess up

Once you get in close there are many options available to sheik, if he tries to jab you, you can just spam your own jab and break out of his giving yourself an opportunity for a grab/tilt/rapid jabs if he's near the ledge

I don't actually recommend rapid jabbing g&w unless he's near the ledge because he can smash DI and punish with fair.

I'll do a lot of the same tilt to aerial combos that I recommended for snake such a few of them being,
Decayed f-tilt to bair
2 f-tilt nair
2 f-tilt jab back throw bair/nair

on the edge guarding, do the needle camp like i specified up above, also if you can get g&w to recover low, be ready to grab the ledge to force him to land on stage, if they mess up, or even sometimes if they don't, you can get a free hit the second they get back on coming out of their upB.

A lot of the same ledge guard rules apply again, use aerial spacing to protect high, and punish as they try to get on, sometimes if your feeling brave go for that offstage aerial kill.

One thing to watch out for in the match up is chasing g&w high in the air which is why I generally recommend staying on the ground. However it is possible to bait a dair from g&w while in the air against him giving sheik a free fair/bair/uair.

Stages I would choose vs G&W would be

FD for the obvious use of setting up needles/powershield to grab games.
Halberd for the release to dacus

Pirate ship for the release to dacus/water to help with recovery, weird platforms and stage effects

Castle siege for the small sides and also release to dacus on the first part of the stage

Also pictochat if your confident in your ability to avoid the random stage changes/potential tilt locks that g&w can use on that stage

All in all i put the match up as 55/45 sheiks favor, and I give that much credit to g&w because he has the potential to gimp(as all characters do), build damage fast, kill early if you make mistakes

good luck <3

 

[stealth3654]

So....since nobody has said anything for a couple days.....are we movin on to the next character?

Sorry, I was out of town for the past 3 days. We will now continue to the next match-up, which is: Falco!

Discuss!

If any of you still have something to say about GaW then do so, but we are now moving on to Falco now.

 

[choknater]

This is my guide to beating Falco with Sheik:

one low short into EX legs
two low shorts into EX legs
three low shorts into EX legs
and combo that into ultra

this girl is so fine
the range on her pokes makes her one of a kind
link a standing fierce
from a low jab
and mix it up cuz chun li has disgusting range on her grab
but EX legs is quite enough
and don't waste your meter on a super and stuff
EX spinning bird is a good wake up
but if their kick is too deep it just might get stuffed, yeah
double fierce (in the air) is really great
and when they get hit it puts them in a juggle state
(juggle with) EX legs
(juggle with) EX bird
(juggle with) ultra
don't pretend you haven't heard!
but chun li has a damage handicap
but it don't mean that she can't give them the ***** slap!
YEAH!

one low short into EX legs
two low shorts into EX legs (ad lib: yeah you know she's got the pokes girl)
three low shorts into EX legs (ad lib: short pokes!) (ad lib: standin')
and combo that into ultra (ad lib: ohhhh, oh ohhhh!)

 

[Crossjeremiah]

choknater is playing sf4?


oh this is an easy match up for sheik

You have to space his bairs, cause some falcos spam this alot, and if your not careful he can pressure your shield and use it to punish you, but you can punish it with grab or shield out of nairs., if your shield is large enough. also your space then punish with nairs to be safer.
falco, he will spam lazers at you, so basically you do is crawl. if he tries to jab spam you you either di away if you dont want to get hit or QCDI if you want to punish. You can do the ftilt, combos. or ftilt decay to usmash on him too . hes basically one of sheiks easiest match ups imo. if he uses utilt just di away and punish with a bair or fair. make sure don't spam needles. he has his reflector, just do a dash mindgame (left dash cancel right dash cancel, to what ever (fairs,ftilts,needles, bairs) and don't spot dodge alot... he will read this and use it to his advantage to pivot grabs and such. and every time hes off the edge, dont go and try to tech chase him. you have needles, just gimp him with those and if hes to low recover with side b then gimp with the needles if he starting up his upb if hes not, and your close enough you should be able to get a bair in there but safest thing to do is gimp with the needles.

 

[East]

I wouldn't call this one so quickly. Sure we Sheik's have a lot going for us in this matchup, but there's also a lot of things working against us. Getting grabbed by a Falco is painful, and pretty much guarantees 50%. Not to mention we have no way to force him to approach [thank you reflector]. His downspike, which if you're close to an edge when he's busy chaingrabbing you, you can expect him to follow it up with this. Not to mention that he can kill... easily.

It important that you play very carefully in matches with Falco.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Falco actually has a problem with killing relative to his tier position. The spike at the edge can also be SDI'd into the stage and teched.

I had a long argument about this in a thread with NJz and Demo about two months ago, I decided to fully reserve my judgement until I see MM video's of NJz and Marsulas so it can be used to either back up or refute points, because the discussion was circling.

I will say that the matchup is no worse then 55:45 Falco, but I even dispute that. However, at the other extreme:

oh this is an easy match up for sheik

Lol no.

 

[choknater]

The matchup is pretty even.

1. Survive the cg
2. ftilt his ***
3. edge guard him well (stand in the middle of the stage if he is definitely gonna make it back.. to punish phantasm incase he wants to land on the stage)
4. if he is forced to use up-B, MAKE SURE HE DIES
5. dont needle too much cuz if he reflects them u take like 20 damage
6. watch out for his priority wing slashes: nair, jabs, fsmash... too good
7. besides lasers and the weird attacks, all of sheiks options are faster and less laggy. falco just has better stage control


bottom line: just get him off the stage.

matchup is even IMO, harder for sheik to master though

51:49 Falco

edit: sorry, my ratio is incorrect

69:68 Falco's favor

 

[Tristan_win]

....you guys do know you can punish his side B onto stage with a dacus OoS, right?

 

[East]

....you guys do know you can punish his side B onto stage with a dacus OoS, right?

How did you manage to figure that out? The timing must be insane