Sheikah Survival Guide: A Sheik Match-up Thread

[stealth3654]

Stay away from his tipper range as best as you can. Once you get inside of it, overwhelm Marth with your speed, but watch out for grabs. If Marth grabs you at 0%, he can do a dthrow to tipper Fsmash if you DI wrong and not air dodge. Sheik is also really good at gimping Marth . Don't use the chain in this match-up because Marth can up B out of it. Marth can also up B out of Sheik's ftilt lock. If you can predict his up B, you can shield it and punish.

 

[Steel]

^ Marth's dthrow to fsmash doesnt work on sheik

He can do a double fthrow to tip fsmash or double fthrow to spike

 

[Blistering Speed]

As with almost any Marth matchup, the key is spacing. Always be cautious of where you are in comparison of Marth's sword and once you get inside, make sure you overwhelm with your speed, Double Jab to Grab, general tiltage etc, these are all god sends. Marth won't kill for a long time without a tipper, though probably still earlier then you. HOWEVER, Marth has a very gimpable recovery (especially for Shiek, she was designed to gimp Marth lol), standard F Air and B Air offstage are both great for pushing him out of DS linear recovery line. Tether edgehog is also fantastic (time the invincibility frames). F Tilt to U Smash as always kills very well but fully decaying F Tilt against Marth is difficult, gimping should still be your primary way of killing.

Shiek can only combo with F Tilt when appropriately decayed, otherwise the Marth will Dolphin Slash out (it's invincible frame 1-4 and hits frame 5), so finish your lock quickly, after two F Tilts usually with D Smash, N Air or U Tilt (Marth can actually DS out of the second hit of U Tilt but I very much doubt they are that frame perfect or react quickly enough). You can also test your opponent's DS patterns and then bait the DS for a free anything.

Abuse the **** out of needles. Marth doesn't have a projectile, you do. This normally isn't much of a problem for Marth thanks to his great manouverability and ability to cancel many projectiles with his sword, however he can use neither effectively in this matchup. Needles don't get cancelled by sword and Shiek has the pace to run away. Needle's also aren't exactly easy to see coming and shield, making them the perfect tool to mess up Marth's spaced tilt's and F Air walls and generally whenever he's far enough away that he can't reach you.

For your specific move problems:
Dash Attack: Shield it, Marth has to commit and it has punishable ending lag.
F Smash: It's range isn't anything special anymore, be very conscious of if you're in tipper position at kill percentages, otherwise it's punishable on shield and it can't kill for **** without the tipper.
D Throw to F Smash: DI appropriately and Airdodge, it's not a guaranteed follow up.
F Air: This move is always going to be a problem, it's a brilliant spacing aerial. However, I find Shiek's Dash Attack very useful against double jump F Air, intercepting between the two. Dashing Shield can also be great to mess up spacing. Needles should always be your primary response however, running away to needles deal very effectively with Marth's F Air spacing.


Marth still has an advantage in this matchup (60:40 IMO) due to his general ability to space with his range, however he isn't as effective at shutting down Shiek as with many characters due to her speed, it's a very winnable matchup.

A post I made a month or so ago in another topic, the move descriptions are because the person was having problem with those specific moves.

10cantbebotheredtopostoriginalcontentatm

 

[FrozenFire13]

Quadruple Fair gimp ftw

 

[phi1ny3]

i know a lot about this match. ill provide input once i see some others post

lol this guy does know what he's talking about.

 

[stealth3654]

Does anyone have anything they would like to add to the discussion? Things like match-up ratio, stage discussion, tactics, and tricks.

Steel2nd, is there anything you would like to add since you main Marth?

 

[Steel]

oh right I forgot about this uh...

Needling Marth isn't exactly effective, don't rely on charging your needles and stuff while Marth is still on stage it's not worth it. You're going to win this match through speed, aggression, and evasion.

Problem is, very few Marth's actually understand this match. If you fight a defensive one who runs away (the more likely scenario) you will have a much easier time. Any kind of camping is easy to get by with Sheik's dart approaches or needles. Aggressive ones are going to try and keep you out with a lot of dtilt pressure and single fairs. If you powershield any of these make sure you punish him. If you're being zoned hard don't be afraid to take one fox trot backwards to reset the situation. You have to evade his sword at all costs.

Being able to decay the ftilt to line up an ftilt up smash combo at around 80-100 probably won't be all that likely. Landing an ftilt is a lot harder in this match so your bread and butter kill option is gone for the most part. Zelda also has it worse than Sheik imo, she can be zoned much easier so I don't recommend switching to her. So as you can see, killing will be a hard task in this match. If you ever get him off stage make sure you can make your best effort to get out there and gimp him. Also, if you are able to predict when Marth is going to go for short hop fair you can do a running up smash and land a tipper.

Chain isn't as effective as most matches. Marth can really just jump in with a counter. I don't think his up b is as effective as that.

What you want to do is make Marth scared of you. Your evasion combined with aggression can sometimes be way too much for him to handle. You have to learn to attack where his sword isn't and find openings.

If anyone has any questions feel free to ask, I feel it's 55:45 at best and 60:40 at worst (in Marth's favor). Marth boards have it listed as 60 40.

 

[stealth3654]

What stage would Sheik have a better/worse time fighting Marth on?

 

[Steel]

i don't think it really matters to be honest. battlefield is marth's best stage but i don't see sheik doing that bad there, especially since she can juggle marth above the platforms too

 

[Zankoku]

They both take advantage of roughly the same stages, with Marth having a little more platform-based control and Sheik enjoying running space a bit more.

 

[choknater]

marth is so easy to beat

the only thing that gives me problems is fthrow fsmash at 0%

that is so annoying!!!

he has range but there is a certain timing between his attacks that sheik can punish really well. he's not like melee fox where there are like no openings between any moves, marth's moves come out like 1....2....3...4.. instead of 1234 right away

those in-between times are where u **** ur way in to penetrate his feminine grace

in this matchup

sheik becomes the man and marth becomes the woman

thunder thighs where u at

steel and blistering speed covered everything pretty much

only thing i have to say is use ur bairs well, and make sure u give him 100% death and despair if u are edgeguarding him

normally ppl say marth has the advantage, but imma say its either even, or sheik is around 80:20 advantage

 

[Steel]

definitely isn't even XD

 

[choknater]

^alright then sheik is definitely 90:10 advantage^

 

[East]

^alright then sheik is definitely 90:10 advantage^

Marth is the new ganondorf?

 

[<π]

marth's approaches are pretty see through so needles **** him. I've never been to afraid of marth spare his grab game.


I'm gonna see about playing agianst virgman's marth more so I can give more accurate judgments about the match up.

 

[Steel]

needles in no way **** marth lol

 

[sniperworm]

needles in no way **** marth lol

Needles would **** Marth if he was slow, laggy, and didn't use his sword (aka Ganondorf).

Marth is the new ganondorf?

Hmm ... j/k, lol.

This matchup is all about finding ways inside of Marth's sword range.

 

[iLight]

Ok i'd just like to start off stating that i believe 70-20 in marth's favor

I'll reason this out to you by going through sheiks combos,approaches,punishes,ledge guards

Jabs
Tilts
Aerials
Ledge Guards
Grabs

1:Jabs
-Any time sheik gets a jab, all marth has to do is upB

2.Tilts
-any time sheik gets a tilt, all marth has to do is upB
though you can bait this and punish sometimes, its hard though

3.Aerials
-unless sheik is doing retreating aerials, all of marths aerials out space hers, unless the marth is really bad at spacing it will be really hard to get inside to hit him with aerials while both on stage if he is spacing attacks as well.

4.Ledge Guards
-If marth gets sheik off stage, all he has to do is create walls right near the ledge and there is very little sheik can do to get past it with her limited recovery options

5.Grabs
-Grabs can work ok on marth if you can get in close, which is very difficult



My tactics against marth:

I use a couple of different approaches depending on what the marth is doing.

If the marth is attempting to space aerials I try to get inside through dash to powershielding, which only works moderately well because if the marth is doing retreating aerials its nearly impossible to punish with sheik unless he makes a mistake. Also if he is spacing aerials I sometimes approach by dashing to b-reverse needle cancel bair which will outspace marth's fair when he throws it out letting you hit with your bair.

Once your able to get inside go for a grab because like I said if the marth is smart if you try to do a jab or tilt combo on him he will just upB out of it before you can do anything.

Once you grab marth just go for any of the normal stuff, follow beneath to sheild grab, or try to space an upTilt on them, go for the second hit not the first. Hit them with an aerials out of the throw if you think they arn't paying attention, but whatever happens don't let them get back down or get below you unless they have to go off stage which is ok.

If the marth is playing a ground game, try to space aerials if you don't believe they will upB, or try to air dodge through them to a grab.

Once I get a marth off stage I will go for the fair or bair gimp if i think they arn't paying attention, but the best bet is to try to hit them with angled needles to turn them around then go for a fair. Otherwise just stay on stage and try to punish them when they stand up.

Oh yeah and also use needles to punish as you knock marth away, but don't try to spam them, make him approach you if possible and try to get him if he messes up.

That's the best you can hope to do in the marth match up

like i said this match up is extremely awful for sheik.

Stages to take marth to:
Halberd
Delfino
Luigis Mansion
Pirate Ship

These are the stages of choice because very few stages actually offer sheik any advantage in this match up because the directions in which sheik is best at knocking characters are exactly the same as marths, just marth is better at it.

Halberd/Delfino because it offers sheik a greater range with which to recover and to gimp if possible.

Luigi's Mansion to prevent marth from using aerials as well, to let sheik live longer, to do f-tilt to the unsuspecting marth

Pirate Ship to prevent gimping as much on sheik, but watch out for spikes!!!







Also one more thing on this match up, if you can get below marth, u-tilt is a very good attack =]

 

[Van Jones]

Just a little fun tip: Marth can F-throw Sheik twice and follow accordingly.

Essentially, Marth's Fair outspaces anything that Sheik can do. Also, if the Marth is feeling lazy and does not want to Smash DI out of Sheik's multi hit moves, all he has to do is Dolphin Slash.

I'm not joking when I say this: If Marth spaces and zones Sheik the entire match she will lose.

DACUS approach.............LOL

 

[iLight]

^^^^^
truth


I'd bet money that there's not a sheik in the country that could beat bear in a set

 

[Crossjeremiah]

NEO xD. i tried playing neo and his marth is unbelievable . i couldnt touch him.

 

[<π]

lol?
Maybe there are no good marths around here but his approaches are crazy read-able he is easy to camp, easy to grab. if you stay out of his sh fair range you have no worries as shiek. and thats not hard to do. Approaching blindly will get you killed.

I say needles are good against marth because all of his approaches come from the air which means he can't dodge on land. dash attack OOS works against fair I think... maybe not... but in general it's a great way to punish marth and get him above you.

upB sucks for ftilt locks at low percents though...

 

[Crossjeremiah]

do not try to punish his side b cool down, i dont know if its me or not, but he keeps up bing when i try to punish.

 

[iLight]

lol?
Maybe there are no good marths around here but his approaches are crazy read-able he is easy to camp, easy to grab. if you stay out of his sh fair range you have no worries as shiek. and thats not hard to do. Approaching blindly will get you killed.

I say needles are good against marth because all of his approaches come from the air which means he can't dodge on land. dash attack OOS works against fair I think... maybe not... but in general it's a great way to punish marth and get him above you.

upB sucks for ftilt locks at low percents though...

thats your problem, play someone who is good with marth, and tell me if your tricks work

 

[Steel]

lol?
Maybe there are no good marths around here but his approaches are crazy read-able he is easy to camp, easy to grab. if you stay out of his sh fair range you have no worries as shiek. and thats not hard to do. Approaching blindly will get you killed.

I say needles are good against marth because all of his approaches come from the air which means he can't dodge on land. dash attack OOS works against fair I think... maybe not... but in general it's a great way to punish marth and get him above you.

upB sucks for ftilt locks at low percents though...

Then you aren't playing any good Marths.

@Unknown, 70 30 is way too drastic, Sheik doesn't have it that bad. I'd say 60 40 at worst.

 

[<π]

The marth I play is desecent, but i don't know if he is missing something huge in his marth.
I can always punish a wiffed sh fair (far from uncommon I think your walk speed is greater than marths aerial movement speed I think too...) with dash attack if memory serves.
oh yeah dtilt wins verus fair too, found that out and started using it more because of this match up.

 

[rathy Aro]

The marth I play is desecent, but i don't know if he is missing something huge in his marth.
I can always punish a wiffed sh fair (far from uncommon I think your walk speed is greater than marths aerial movement speed I think too...) with dash attack if memory serves.
oh yeah dtilt wins verus fair too, found that out and started using it more because of this match up.

No point in going back and forth. Someone just test both when they can.

 

[iLight]

i'll test your dtilt vs fair, and

@steel i do believe it to be that bad, if you fight someone that understands sheik as much as you do, that also plays marth at a top of the metagame level, then you would see. badnewsbear was there through the entire process of me experimenting and learning sheik, he knows the character almost better than i do. like i said i would bet money against anyone trying to beat him in a set.

I truly believe the marth match up to be that bad, he just wrecks sheik too hard in all aspects other than speed

 

[Steel]

He's doing something very wrong if you can punish his approach every time.

Tell me, is this Marth jumping backwards, camping and playing defensive? Unfortunately, that's the majority of Marths and they're doing it wrong. That gives them a poor offensive game which makes it easier for Sheik.

If the Marth is staying on Sheik with the tip of sword relentlessly wtf can she do? Unless you power shield into dash attack, all you can do is run away. Marth will be baiting reactions with his fair and dtilt, mostly rolling. If you ever roll while being zoned you will eat dancing blade at the least.

Needles have very little impact in this match.

@Unkown

I've done this match up repeatedly as both Marth and Sheik vs NEO who probably has the best of both characters. I know this match too lol. He also thinks Sheik does well vs Marth.

 

[phi1ny3]

Steel, what about retreating nairs? That's something that hasn't been discussed in terms of marth, and it's not as punishable per se as fair. Plus the crossup stuff or ff-> dtilt/DB.

 

[iLight]

so how does neo play the match up then if he thinks its in sheiks favor?

 

[Steel]

I never said he said she wins it, just that she does well compared to a lot of other characters (ie, probably around 60:40 or 55:45).

 

[choknater]

double jab - power shield dolphin slash - tipper usmash is TOOOOOO GOOD

anyway

i never played any "good marths" so thats why i think sheik *****

 

[Zankoku]

I think MikeHAZE would qualify as a "good Marth."

 

[<π]

she can just leave if she is getting pressured that hard by marth. there is no reason for her to need to seith there and shield tippers all day. Sheik is way faster than marth his ground game is way to slow and fair has decent end lag. Needles are a big factor in the match up IMO since, like I said his aerial approaches are very easy to space against on your end.

The marth's I play aren't passive defensive ones.

40-60, 45-55 is no where near as bad as you are making this match up sound. Sheik has tons of options here. A pateint smart sheik can definitely win the match.

 

[rathy Aro]

she can just leave if she is getting pressured that hard by marth. there is no reason for her to need to seith there and shield tippers all day. Sheik is way faster than marth his ground game is way to slow and fair has decent end lag. Needles are a big factor in the match up IMO since, like I said his aerial approaches are very easy to space against on your end.

The marth's I play aren't passive defensive ones.

40-60, 45-55 is no where near as bad as you are making this match up sound. Sheik has tons of options here. A pateint smart sheik can definitely win the match.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=204825
sideB hits on frame 4. UpB is UpB. Jab hits on frame 4. Not slow at all.
SHFF fair has 3 frames of lag. otherwise it has 16 frames of lag which sheik probably could punish or get hit by upB, either one.
There are characters that can easily space against marth? o.O I thought even MK finds this kinda hard.

Light seems to be pretty spot on with everything, but the actual number. 70-30 is a hard counter and that seems a bit much since as <3 said sheik does have options in this match. Light, can you put up a vid of you vs. bear's marth? I looked and I could only find old ones where he clearly didn't know the matchup as well as you make it sound now.

 

[<π]

I mean don't let marth get you inside of his range at all. just walk out of his attack range. He is fast, but those options spare side B, to a slightly lesser extent are crazy risky.
I don't know about your marths, I don't run into many that use ground attacks at all except for finishers. jab is a horrible move, it comes out fast but it's lag time is what kills it. upB no, good finisher, good interupter, bad spacing/opening move.

Fair
Hit: 4-8
End: 34
Shield Stun: 10
~Shield Hit Lag: 5
ADVANTAGE: -25
ADVANTAGE (SHFF): -4
Tipper Shield Stun: 13
~Shield Hit Lag: 11
ADVANTAGE: -28
ADVANTAGE (SHFF): -8
SHFF Fair Lag: 8
SH Fair Fast Falled Lag: 3

most marths aren't going to upB out of a missed fair as a defensive option, thats crazy high risk. And rarely a viable option. 8, not 4 is more than enough time for needles to connect and enough time for a good old dash grab to get in or dash attack.

These numbers seem to point to me being right dash attack OOS is an easy answer to shielding a tippered fair, fast falled or other wise.

 

[Steel]

Of course she has options or the ratio wouldn't be that close.

The Marths you play don't use dtilt? >_______>

It's his best move vs Sheik.

 

[iLight]

i'll load some videos tommorow

but in regards to just running away when marth is pressuring hard, as long as the marth does not get antsy and just keeps slowly pressuring forward, you will get pushed into a corner or into a ledge guard situation where a marth will **** you every time

@dash attack out of shield, i can see that working some, because i use it as well, but if the marth is smart and retreating back as he fairs at the right moments when he's close, the sheik will get punished more often then not

also marth's best move vs sheik i'd say is either his upB or his overB because if a marth started using d-tilt alot i would either just powershield to grab or aerial over it so fast. Also if your good at timing dacus you can punish it with that as well, the only time a marth would really punish a sheik with d-tilt would be in a ledge guard situation. However thats not even neccesary because if he just stands there and waits for sheik to try to come up on stage from any direction he will be able to easily punish

 

[Steel]

Dtilt isn't used for punishing >_> Also how are you going to hit a dacus with it if you're getting pressured with it? It's used to keep Sheik out and to prevent her dart approaches.