Sheik Video & Video Critique Thread

[phi1ny3]

Man, Cross' Sheik is so cool, I wish he was going to Apex

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47BMSjEwQY8&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4WEmr6VNck&feature=related

 

[DeLux]

Also, Judo or Dnyce, explain ISSDI to me please!

What do you want to know about ISSDI?

 

[#HBC | Scary]

CJ for the most part covered it for me. I suppose my only question is "does it work only with the Cstick, and the window to input is 3-5 frames correct? Last question is you can smash the Cstick for the DI as long as you reset in that frame window right?"

 

[DeLux]

You can ISSDI with the control stick and the cstick or a combination of both. If you use only the control stick, you'll buffer a roll if the move's shield lag is less than 10 frames.

If you use only the cstick, it's the same scenario, but if you time it correctly you'll ISSDI > Buffer Grab. If you whiff, you'll buffer a roll

If you use a combination of both (which is what I do), if timed right you'll ISSDI > Buffered action. You can do JCUsmash, Spot Dodge, or Grab as a following action


The window is the length of shield lag. So it varies from move to move.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Alrighty, all sounds good to me. Need to start learning.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

A match I just found from the last tourney I went to. Definitely need a critique here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjm6nd9JPc8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[Judo777]

A match I just found from the last tourney I went to. Definitely need a critique here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjm6nd9JPc8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Don't be afraid of his eggs. Just be careful they can hurt really bad but they are slow and predictable you can avoid them everytime with proper precautions. When tilting yoshi treat him just like Marth. His DJ armor comes out frame 1 so only hit him with legit followup OR just shield after a few ftilts and let him DJ. Yoshi is really bad at getting to the ground safely, if he expends his DJ just wait for him to hit the ground hes really vulnerable.

You were starting to take advantage of pressuring him getting back to the stage but I want to encourage you to focus hard on it and don't let up. He doesn't have alot of options. If he jumps at you and bairs ur shield you can punish is for free most of the time. Yoshis bair isn't a very good walling move against sheik. If he completely retreats it it can be safe but its also slow and he has to start it up early, if he does just needle him for free damage.

When he is on the ledge throwing eggs DON'T back up. They literally throw eggs hoping you will back up and let them on the stage. Like I said yoshis options for getting back to the ground are pretty bad. Yoshi only gets a maximum of 5 egg tosses on the ledge after that if he tosses one he dies. And I'm not sure if it possible or not but I don't think he can throw the 5th egg anywhere but straight up or else it won't go onstage. Spotdodge the eggs or shield them (but be careful when shielding them they can bounce), and wait for him to get off the ledge.

 

[<π]

I didn't know that last bit of info :D

but yeah make sure you tilts and stuff out of the tilts are true combos thats the biggest thing. if he is in the air dash in sheild or needles storm the landing.

spare that you are a monster.

 

[sheikamaru]

Thank you ed, I'll try to come back out with better results. I appreciate it

 

[phi1ny3]

@Judo: Why not finish the tilt lock w/ dsmash? How I see it, it's going to be sort of harder to land dsmash or its setups on Yoshi in this MU since he's more of an aeral character, so getting in some good damage would be nice, right?

That's really cool though, I didn't know he had a max of 5 eggs.

 

[<π]

utilt and aerials (uair nair bair) deal the same amount of damage as dsmash but can be used further down the tilt lock line if that makes sense. you aren't missing out on any damage you are staling ftilt a little more to make set ups like ftilt usmash easier and you are keeping you dsmash fresh for those jab->dsmash kill punishes.

 

[phi1ny3]

except you can't tilt lock Yoshi very much due to that second jump iirc, so getting a quick 18% or so is better than only 5-8%. I guess her aerials would work too, but I don't want to risk getting nair'd.

I do like Judo's idea of letting them jump then trapping them coming back down.

 

[<π]

you CAN ftilt yoshi it just has to be at percents where it is a true combo, just like with marth mario samus ect. Knowing your percents is huge for sheik and thinking certain charters are immune to ftilt is really just giving away damage.

ftilt ftlit isn't a true combo till the upper 30s(fresh) so things like ftilt grab become strong options below that. but even still it isn't true just as much as ftilt dsmash and you run the same risks.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Just a matter of %s and knowing them. I got it for next time. Been tryin to clean up my gameplay at the last few fests I've gone too.

 

[Judo777]

@Judo: Why not finish the tilt lock w/ dsmash? How I see it, it's going to be sort of harder to land dsmash or its setups on Yoshi in this MU since he's more of an aeral character, so getting in some good damage would be nice, right?

That's really cool though, I didn't know he had a max of 5 eggs.

You can and feel free to do whatever you want just make sure its a legit combo or you'll get hit.

Also yoshi being more of an aerial character is a myth. Yoshi has a decent airgame at best but he also has a very solid ground game. I actually feel that yoshi should be played 50/50 of ground and airgame because his only really good aerials are uair and nair and only one of those can he use regularly. His airgrab is a BIG deal tho.

Still tho I stick to my statement that Yoshi is about even in ground game compared to air. Moreso tho for the MU we DEFINITELY want yoshi in the air. Yoshi above us is the BEST spot for the MU. Likewise yoshi wants to control the ground against us likewise so keep control of the ground.

 

[phi1ny3]

you CAN ftilt yoshi it just has to be at percents where it is a true combo, just like with marth mario samus ect. Knowing your percents is huge for sheik and thinking certain charters are immune to ftilt is really just giving away damage.

ftilt ftlit isn't a true combo till the upper 30s(fresh) so things like ftilt grab become strong options below that. but even still it isn't true just as much as ftilt dsmash and you run the same risks.

I see, I'll probably need to take another look at that chart sometime

 

[riocosta123]

Sup guys,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3g4uwyOrfyk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCpemRPwAl0

Any advice would be much appreciated, since this is my first time playing in like 8 months (I roll too much, airdodge into people, blahbidbloo). Sorry these matches are long, but they're against ICs and I have to play hella stupid against them. I don't normally jump around that much, but against ICs my theory is to stay on the ground as little as possible until you get a hit.

For some reason I remember someone saying advancing blizzard shuts down Sheik, which is completely false since your needles go right through it. Anyways, I'm pretty happy with my Sheik considering the rust. I forgot that Nana doesn't techroll (or at least she didn't with me).

 

[<π]

I think they say Ice block shuts down sheik... and that's kinda false too the start up on Ice block is terrible, cool down is bad too. projectile is bad too, lol.

my big peices of advice ftilt out rangest thier grab, so take advantage of that in those melee ranges.

your spaced fair and bair great. be careful about whether you bair or double jump if you are going for the "stomp" some times bair can put you in bad positions if they aren't facing you.

after those bairs though go for jab ICs have no strong answer to that spare spot dodge which can be punished. bair->ftilt can be beat by thier grab though...

so bair->buffer turn around->jab and go from there.

don't ftilt1 dsmash after like 35-40 percent just keep ftilting into utilt or uair

utilt hits the plats on BF.

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

Neither one shuts down sheik on its own, but like the reason Ice block shuts down sheik is because it absorbed needles,and even if it has a slow cooldown, unless you're right in their face they'll have time to throw it out before needles reach. And blizzard out ranges everything thats not needles so like yeah needles beat blizzard, but at the range that ICs should be using blizzard at if you throw needles at 1 climber (they'll only hit one due to the nature of the hitbox and the positioning of desynch blizzard), the other climber should have a free grab on you. Because that climber shouldn't be committed to a move yet.

Most ICs are bad and commit both Climbers at the same time so you'll get away with stuff like needling blizzard. But it -shouldn't- work.

Also Sheik's f-tilt does out range grab, but if you hit shield with f-tilt they can grab you. the only thing that's safe on IC's shield that's a melee move is retreating bair or like jabs on the back of their shield.

I haven't watched the matches yet, but I'll get around to it eventually.

 

[riocosta123]

If you have a full needle storm you can get some hits in provided the needles reach the ice block when it's reasonably close to ICs.

Also, if you see me stupidly jumping into standing blizzard that's just me trying to see if I can SDI/challenge it (these were only seriouslies).

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

That can happen, however it takes ICs a lot less time to throw out an Ice block than it does Sheik to fully charge her needles, so you'll win that trade like once, but after you lose it once, you'll never have time to fully charge needles unless one or both climbers are dead.

 

[Juushichi]

Planning to get some vids of me up soon from a fest tonight.

It's either Sheik-D3 or Sheik-Kirby unless someone else comes. Maybe Sheik-Luc if Thulius shows up.

 

[Judo777]

Planning to get some vids of me up soon from a fest tonight.

It's either Sheik-D3 or Sheik-Kirby unless someone else comes. Maybe Sheik-Luc if Thulius shows up.

Sheik Kirby............... *evil glare*

 

[Juushichi]

That didn't end up happening, lol. It was Sheik-DDD (Kiester), Sheik-Luigi (Katon's rusty *** one), Sheik-Pit (Katon's) and Sheik-Lucario (Thulius).

I have to wait to get a charger for this laptop too to upload, but ideally I'll also have Sheik-Diddy (Sai) and Sheik-GnW (Today) if I happen to see them before they go back to Cincy.

 

[<π]

Ice blocks are one of the worst projectile in the game IMO so slow... and you can attack right through them. If they dysnc chase just throw like three needles. or jump on a plat. Ice blocks aren't some crazy presure tool. they control space and can force actions yeah, but so do D3 waddles.

sheik has powerful answers to both Ice block and blizzard even when dsynced.

@22
what competent sheik is going to throw needles at a range where they'd be punished with a grab? Most ICs I've seen use Bliz as a wall in order to prevent apporaches/stuff predicted ones. because of its rediculous start up (espeacially when you want to dsync it) it is as viable as an offensive option.

At any range with blizzard is a strong option needles (espeacially more than one) can go unpunished. I toss single needle just out side of bliz range frequently without a punish from ICs. they just don't have the ground speed or range to do that. characters like snake, diddy and fox on the other hand could punish similar things OOS, or even on hit (single needle)

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

Any range that blizzard can hit you, is a grabbable range for needles on shield, I say this because I've been grabbed for it, and as ive said most ICs are horrible with their character or at smash in general, so you will get away with these things, but you shouldn't. Also the reason that single needle can land and u still get grabbed is because of the second climber, and even if you don't get grabbed for it, what else can you do? Jump over them? Get uair'd, roll away? Eventually you'll run out of stage, jump on a platform? Get destroyed by uairs.

also once you avoid the ice block what do you do? If your on a platform SH uair is unpunishable, if there is no platform to jump to you landing trap yourself. Ice blocks are a great zone control especially against a character with limited aerial mobility, fast fall speed and a blind spot underneath her.


Sheik can beat ICs if they A. Aren't good at smash. B aren't good with their character. C. The Sheik player is a prodigy at close combat. D. The ICs makes mistakes...

Sheik shouldn't win this MU. Shouldn't=\=Can't. I like it more with Sheik than I do with Zelda who supposedly is a counter.

 

[Ripple]

Sheik Kirby............... *evil glare*

it's not that bad

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Zelda vs ICs is dumb, I'm gonna start to learn the Sheik vs ICs MU. Then I'm gonna use them both in the same MU and prosper!

Next level strategy!

 

[<π]

no one can grab full needles at that range... the cool down is very low for full needles.

1 needle has 36 frames of lag (so assuming they were directly where the needle spawned) and needles have no sheild stun they'd have 36(our lag) -(shield drop) 7=29 frame advantage.

for 6 needles

you get 21 frames of lag, assuming the same as above 21-7 = 14 frame advantage.

of course that isn't the reality of it at all. the needles take time to get that frame the further away the smaller advantage they get.

IC just can't cover that much distance in that amount of time. even if they could all you'd have to do is step back and do it from further. chances are if you are throwing needles that close in reaction to blizzard you won't hit shield anyway.

 

[phi1ny3]

Sheik Kirby............... *evil glare*

I might speak from naivety, but after playing t1mmy (yes, he's not exactly top, but a good kirby), and MogX at Genesis 2, I'm inclined to say it's okay, it's not fun exactly, but I think it's still not as hard as say... Marth or ICs.

 

[Zankoku]

After playing against both Bladewise and MogX at Genesis, I have to conclude that you are crazy for thinking the matchup against Marth is even comparable to Kirby.

 

[phi1ny3]

and imo even Bladewise wasn't abusing what Marth can do to sheik.

edit: or are you implying the other way around, Ankoku?

 

[Zankoku]

I'm pretty sure I can at least keep up with Bladewise if I had to play him again. On the other hand, I spent roughly 30 minutes enduring probably the most annoying matchup this side of Ice Climbers just to take a single game off of MogX in friendlies.

Marth has great aspects, easily better than Kirby's qualities overall, but his range and attacks are predictable in capability, and he's a much larger target. Also, given Sheik's mobility and Marth's reliance on precision to score a kill at any reasonable percent, he's kind of put in a bind when it comes to being efficient. He and Snake are probably my favorite two matchups that definitively involve being at a disadvantage, because what they actually hold over Sheik really puts the player's own mental speed to the test.

 

[phi1ny3]

I disagree, although I was only really playing friendlies w/ MogX w/ sheik, no mms. Maybe I just suck v. Marth now, but that MU is ridiculous esp. when offstage, and sideB does so much for marth in the MU. Kirby feels more pokeish, but I feel he has less going for him ground-wise than Marth does, and although Kirby's juggle game and abuse of us offstage is strong, I don't feel it's as bad as Marth, and when playing MogX, it didn't seem all that bad (I actually took a game or two off, dare I say it), but then again he'd never fought sheik prior probably, and after adapting a little more it became harder (especially when he capitalized on my huge impatience after awhile). Oh, and playing against Marth's shield is obnoxious, when you do get inside, it's always tricky if he hasn't done something mega punishable, upB oos, aerials, etc. Kirby is a smaller target, but I feel like I can play around his shield more often without having to worry about getting murdered, whereas getting sideB'd once or upB'd once usually feels like I lose a lot of control (because they usually send me offstage or away from the center, which is clearly bad).

idk, bad marth is fun, good marth is silly. I want to play this YBM guy since he seems to know the MU well, but from what I did against Kirby, it seemed ok.

disclaimer: this isn't in light of my pools match in Gen 2 v. Mike, I know everything I did wrong, and it wasn't even a matter of how the characters panned, I just sucked from going on a huge mental block/trip after learning I had switched pools after studying the MU I was originally studying for (I was originally in Cheese's pool, although clearly I would've gone Lucario for that, I in retrospect learned to be ready for ANY match). All those mistakes were my bad play, not a matter of the MU itself.

I do agree with snake MU being fun, even when the snake knows how to stop tilt lock, it's a great MU and it feels so fun to play (on both ends, actually).

 

[<π]

I think marth and kirby aren't all that bad... I haven't been able to sit down with any top kirbies. I've played with chu once or twice and I didn't feel like there was some wall I could penetrate.

I've played with lots of top ICs

 

[Juushichi]

I think marth and kirby aren't all that bad... I haven't been able to sit down with any top kirbies. I've played with chu once or twice and I didn't feel like there was some wall I could penetrate.

I've played with lots of top ICs

I don't think that Kirby is as impossible as Ice Climbers, but I also haven't played the best one that's still around (Y.b.M.)--- with Sheik. Honestly, I just use Mario because it feels like a much better option.

ICs is another MU that just doesn't seem worth playing if you have a secondary, tbh. In my experience, what tutu said about dealing with IBs and all that is right. To me it might just be unwinnable in the competitive scene.

 

[Judo777]

Side B isn't just a part of that mart MU, its like 70% of the Marth MU. Dancing Blades is literally almost the only grounded option Marth should be using (except for dtilt at the ledge occaisionally). We as Sheiks need to understand exactly how dancing blades works and plan our gameplay around that move. That move hurts us in our strongest spot up close so we need to learn to make it hurt. We have a few options when that move hits our shield. The primary difference between Sheik Marth and Sheik Kirby is 2 main factors.

One we can hurt marth on the ledge SOOOOOO bad. He can hurt us on the ledge too but its even or in our favor a little in that respect. We can freely make Marth take around 60% or more just trying to land back on the freaking stage. Due to kirbys jumps alone we have very limited options in preventing his recovery (tho we do have a few things we can do) but its not near as comparable to marth. Conversely Kirby can massacre our recovery.

Two is IMO the same reason why Marth Kirby is almost even despite the fact that it SHOULD be heavily in Marths favor. Its a simple factor of punishment reward. Marth gets to hit Kirby alot more often in that MU but when Kirby hits Marth, IT FREAKING HURTS. Kirbys punishes are absolutely DEVASTATING and he doesn't requires near the precision for huge punishes that Marth does. I feel its very safe to say that due to Marth's surprisingly light weight and difficulty landing kill moves on fast targets we SHOULD be killing each other at around the same percents. I feel this is very much so not the case against Kirby. Kirby can kill us too freaking early. If I had a nickel for everytime I died due to being forced to vanish on stage (laglessly mind you) but ate a ledge drop DJ hammer before I hit the ground, I'd be rich.

 

[<π]

A match I just found from the last tourney I went to. Definitely need a critique here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjm6nd9JPc8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

hmm... don't use utilt out of ftilit though in this match up unless he is really high up there in the lock. he can double jump out at any percent like marth mario DK(lol) etc can upB out.
I'd drop the tilt into a shield and try and work from reaction after that if fair or uair wasn't true after the lock ended.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMGsBhbL_Kw (GF set 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSFhkJs4BkI (GF set 2)

Grand finals from the tournament I won. No lie, I feel like I played like crap but I am happy that it was enough to get me through. Critiques are welcome!

 

[Zankoku]

Be a little less greedy on trying to bait landings. Just about everything except for missed attacks and low airdodges will not lose to standing there and charging usmash.

Edgeguarding Diddy is about either hitting him before he can launch or invincibility hogging the ledge if you don't think you can reach him in time.