bubbaking
Smash Hero
Boost grab? Is that another way of saying dashing grab? :/
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Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA
- Thread starter KirbyKaze
- Start date
Kaffei
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2008
- Messages
- 7,048
No
You dash attack and then grab as the dash attack intiates so you do a dash grab but it goes reaallly far.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
This is not only in Melee. In almost any current fighting game, you are rewarded for playing defensively as opposed to offensively aggressive. Note that playing defensively does not mean to stop playing OFFENSIVELY or AGGRESSIVELY (even though the two words seem to be antonyms to defensively), but rather to stop playing AGGRESSIVELY OFFENSIVE.
Lolz, so true. Camping is defensive but defensive does not equate to camping.
I see. Thanks for the info! (^_^)
joejoe22802
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2005
- Messages
- 873
Ok say youre playing against a space. After the first down throw of match, what is your action? Also same question for a back and forward throw off the edge.
Also against a Marth what is the primary change in how you approach in comparison to spacies. And how do you punish jump out of d throw and jump fair out of d throw
Also against a Marth what is the primary change in how you approach in comparison to spacies. And how do you punish jump out of d throw and jump fair out of d throw
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I do a 0-death combo.
Regarding onstage down throws, basic formula for me is: regrab to like 40, some kind of tilt or dash attack, then do appropriate follows. if he non-techs below 30 just jab reset > up smash.
I also have a lot of little tricks to cover multiple techs but the above should get you started.
B-throw? Probably run off FF DJ and then respond to whatever accordingly.
I have a whole ****ing stickied thread on how to combo Marth from down throw, just read it and copy it. Don't ask that question, I made a sticky for it because we get that question every ****ing week and people should know to search for it by now or look at the guides qgriqietgiqtgjgwvbdwmkty2nrlwnklrql.
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Regarding onstage down throws, basic formula for me is: regrab to like 40, some kind of tilt or dash attack, then do appropriate follows. if he non-techs below 30 just jab reset > up smash.
I also have a lot of little tricks to cover multiple techs but the above should get you started.
B-throw? Probably run off FF DJ and then respond to whatever accordingly.
I have a whole ****ing stickied thread on how to combo Marth from down throw, just read it and copy it. Don't ask that question, I made a sticky for it because we get that question every ****ing week and people should know to search for it by now or look at the guides qgriqietgiqtgjgwvbdwmkty2nrlwnklrql.
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omgwtfToph
Smash Master
What should I ideally be doing to Ganon after a dthrow?
Sorry for asking a question that I'm sure has been asked MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF Scar fans. I mean times.
Sorry for asking a question that I'm sure has been asked MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF Scar fans. I mean times.
soap
Smash Hero
Ganon. Chain grab into usmash/fair
ChicknMonkey
Smash Apprentice
What are the logistics for a Ganon & Sheik doubles team?
joejoe22802
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2005
- Messages
- 873
d smash d tilt, go over
joejoe22802
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2005
- Messages
- 873
Way less dash attack.
Charge needles instead of single ones so you can actually follow up.
More spaced fair and bair pressure.
Make sure you follow up with the right moves.
tilt -> Fair not tilt-> dash attack
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Dora, double jump more intelligently. Sometimes, holding onto it is really useful.
Yea, I notice he likes to shield grab a lot. Thanks for tips guys.
Also, he never plays dk in friendlies and I don't know what I should follow up with/what works. I can't ever follow up d throw most of the time. Should I tech chase or dash attack? I think I can cg after like 40?
Also, he never plays dk in friendlies and I don't know what I should follow up with/what works. I can't ever follow up d throw most of the time. Should I tech chase or dash attack? I think I can cg after like 40?
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Dthrow leads to tech chase and bthrow/fthrow often ends in an easy gimp (especially if it's Falco) w/ bair, sometimes fair. As for approaching Marth, you can bait his laggy actions thus allowing u to get easy grabs and tilts.Ok say youre playing against a space. After the first down throw of match, what is your action? Also same question for a back and forward throw off the edge.
Also against a Marth what is the primary change in how you approach in comparison to spacies. And how do you punish jump out of d throw and jump fair out of d throw
Well, you also seemed to be overly aggressive at times which played right into his shield grab game. To counter, you can grab him more often. Oh, and respect that upB a bit; his arms are invincible. I think Sheik can follow the dthrow on DK up w/ tilts but I'm not sure. Also, her uthrow may not lead into much but it leaves him in a worse position than you, since DK does much better laterally or when below his opponent and Sheik does well against opponents above her.Yea, I notice he likes to shield grab a lot. Thanks for tips guys.
Also, he never plays dk in friendlies and I don't know what I should follow up with/what works. I can't ever follow up d throw most of the time. Should I tech chase or dash attack? I think I can cg after like 40?
You commit way too easily and also give up a lot of advantage situations where you should pressure him (e.g. you just randomly dash attack him when he shields)
Stop doing full hop needle stuff when it's unsafe it sucks and gets you punished badly
Also you need to tech chase on reaction by grabbing (boost grab the tech away/in options (A+Z)). You follow up d-throw with lots of random stuff at low% like jabs.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
To add on about the needles, you can also ledge cancel them so you could use the needles' pressure to set up a grab or something.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
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- 26,560
u ****ing piece of ****Yea, I notice he likes to shield grab a lot. Thanks for tips guys.
Also, he never plays dk in friendlies and I don't know what I should follow up with/what works. I can't ever follow up d throw most of the time. Should I tech chase or dash attack? I think I can cg after like 40?
grab dthrow tech-chase 0-43% like I'm falcon except my jab comes out frame 5 instead of 3 so tech in place is even worse
then dthrow cg/dthrow ftilt -> gay stuff like Sheik does.
then kill me because you're sheik and I'm donkey kong
stop dash attacking when I'm still in CC %'s. it's really only good as a comboer (i.e i'm in the air and in hitstun) or at %'s where I can't CC grab you.
when I'm recovering lowish to where ledge & stage are both possible for me to get to, grab the ledge and ledgehop invincible aerial (bair if I'm a bit away, nair if I'm up in your ****). if you can't get there in time, then take free needle damage. i'll eventually SDI up and get on stage/ledge but it's better than nothing.
and your spacing sucks, i don't even have to shield DI to shieldgrab most of your stuff. work on that.
i don't even care anymore because I'm probably not even going to use DK in this match-up for much longer. too ******** in NTSC. i was going evenish with Sinister (granted, playing comparatively awfully but still) today w/ who I'm working on for the math-up so you're going to get your **** PUSHED INNNNNNN
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- 26,560
and seriously stop using white/black sheik until you get better.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
I'll have to Sheik ditto you now and choose Black & White because you aren't worthy of it.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
according to KirbyKaze, ask Amsah
SonuvaBeach
Smash Lord
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7461507&postcount=2
but i would like some advice from Amsah as well. Ice vs Amsah was an awesome set.
but i would like some advice from Amsah as well. Ice vs Amsah was an awesome set.
joejoe22802
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2005
- Messages
- 873
Bubba I was asking for a more specific answer. Also if you guys could go to my Critique thread and check out my matches against sung that would make me so happy.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Sheik dittos?
Fair them, d-tilt under fairs, CC grab d-tilts, etc. Simple stuff like that. F-tilt can beat fair, but you need to do it kind of preemptively rather than reactively because of how ridiculous her fair is. Bair also works against fair, but same rule. D-smash works reactively against fairs because of the invincibility and because of how low it hits.
Play more defensive than them if you're worse than them. Approaching is kind of hard. Doable, but if you're worse you should probably just try to outgay them. Honestly.
Don't be on platforms for very long. You'll get ***** by her range.
If they shield, space your fair outside their shield grab range. You can do mixups with jabs and whatever but be careful because CC shield grab and CC grab mashing will **** that pretty hard and you'll get hurt. I think you can space the jab far enough for it to be immune to that garbage, but I'm not 100% on it so don't quote me on it. If you can condition them to hold shield, fair > grab is pretty good. I dunno. Sheik's shield pressure just takes a lot of conditioning because it's got holes but you've got massive range so it's all good. Empty jump > grab should not be underestimated, either.
Do good combos (d-throw > dash attack ~30, then go wild). Up tilt if they DI elsewhere. Learn how to d-throw > dash SH rising fair at like 50% or so. This allows you to finish CGs at the edge and transition into edgeguards effectively, rather than relying on them having bad DI on an f-tilt or whatever. It's good, trust me. If you don't, you're dumb.
Fair them, d-tilt under fairs, CC grab d-tilts, etc. Simple stuff like that. F-tilt can beat fair, but you need to do it kind of preemptively rather than reactively because of how ridiculous her fair is. Bair also works against fair, but same rule. D-smash works reactively against fairs because of the invincibility and because of how low it hits.
Play more defensive than them if you're worse than them. Approaching is kind of hard. Doable, but if you're worse you should probably just try to outgay them. Honestly.
Don't be on platforms for very long. You'll get ***** by her range.
If they shield, space your fair outside their shield grab range. You can do mixups with jabs and whatever but be careful because CC shield grab and CC grab mashing will **** that pretty hard and you'll get hurt. I think you can space the jab far enough for it to be immune to that garbage, but I'm not 100% on it so don't quote me on it. If you can condition them to hold shield, fair > grab is pretty good. I dunno. Sheik's shield pressure just takes a lot of conditioning because it's got holes but you've got massive range so it's all good. Empty jump > grab should not be underestimated, either.
Do good combos (d-throw > dash attack ~30, then go wild). Up tilt if they DI elsewhere. Learn how to d-throw > dash SH rising fair at like 50% or so. This allows you to finish CGs at the edge and transition into edgeguards effectively, rather than relying on them having bad DI on an f-tilt or whatever. It's good, trust me. If you don't, you're dumb.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
If he DIs away? Regrab. If he's below 18% or so (when regrab doesn't work) you can f-tilt and do mixups to see if you can cheat a regrab or weird combo, or you can let him land on the floor and tech chase him. If he lands on the floor and non-techs, I'd probably go for something dumb like jab-reset > double hit up smash but that's escapable if he SDIs the jab and he sometimes wake-up attacks so regrab is probably better. Or wait and treat it like a normal tech chase. You can dash attack at like 30% if you wanna try to combo him, but it's honestly not good until like 45% because of how fat Ganon is.
If he DIs elsewhere? This.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
unhdajfaasgdnk
THANKS KIRBY KAZE
edit: jesus dude that combo omg
edit edit: lmfao at the "6-4?" tag. 2 good
THANKS KIRBY KAZE
edit: jesus dude that combo omg
edit edit: lmfao at the "6-4?" tag. 2 good
By being the smarter Sheik.How do I beat Sheik with Sheik?
I can tell you to fair, but also how to defend against her fair.
I can tell you to grab, but also how to punish her trying to grab you.
So in the end, since she can both attack and defend against herself, it comes down to outsmarting your opponent..
(Like pretty much all dittos >_>)
Fortress | Sveet
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fox dittos are just who can press more buttons in the shortest amount of time... No need for outsmarting.
Beat!
Smash Master
I've always viewed dittos in general to be more about execution and less about outsmarting/decision making compared to other matchups.
derp
derp
It's the other way around IMO haha
john!
Smash Hero
dittos are all about spacing. since you both have the same hitboxes, the person who spaces better will always win.
i usually prefer to use one of my other characters instead of dittoing. the reason is because i will have a great deal of knowledge of how their character works, while they will not know as much about the character that i am using.
i usually prefer to use one of my other characters instead of dittoing. the reason is because i will have a great deal of knowledge of how their character works, while they will not know as much about the character that i am using.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Philosophical discussion of what a ditto is won by?
Dittos are kind of weird because you can't establish a horizontal spacing on the ground that's better than the opponent's because they have the same options as you. In the air angles can vary a lot, so it's possible to do it there, but on the ground? Not so much. Mostly because, for better or worse, the ground is usually flat in this game.
You can still get a better ground position because of stage control and other factors, but you can't get into an optimal spacing for attacking without giving them that optimal spacing for attacking at the same time. And whatnot. Which is a bit of a shift, but it's not too bad.
Otherwise, I don't see them too differently than any other MU.
Dittos are kind of weird because you can't establish a horizontal spacing on the ground that's better than the opponent's because they have the same options as you. In the air angles can vary a lot, so it's possible to do it there, but on the ground? Not so much. Mostly because, for better or worse, the ground is usually flat in this game.
You can still get a better ground position because of stage control and other factors, but you can't get into an optimal spacing for attacking without giving them that optimal spacing for attacking at the same time. And whatnot. Which is a bit of a shift, but it's not too bad.
Otherwise, I don't see them too differently than any other MU.
I have something kinda relevant to this ditto discussion actually. There was a tourney this weekend in Norway, me, leffen, AJP, Smasher89 and Jack went.
I faced Tornberry 2nd round Bracket (took a game of Leffen in fox dittos), arguably the best player in Norway. We both main fox. I won the first game on Yoshi Story's, but second game he picked up and beat me 3-1 in a pretty even best of 5.
I was too stupid to slow down and think what mistakes I did before I started the next match but afterwards I realized my spacing had been pretty poor all set long. Tornberry had realized this after game 1 and simply dashdanced grabbed me so many times I lost count.
10 seconds after the set was over I was pretty mad at myself as I realized if I just overshot a bit more or just played more patient I might have come out on top.
We both did some fancy combos and stuff but it came down to who got the first hit most of the times (dashdance grab). Dittos... spacing fest.
Remember kids, think between games what you did wrong and just don't rush on to the next one .. :3
I faced Tornberry 2nd round Bracket (took a game of Leffen in fox dittos), arguably the best player in Norway. We both main fox. I won the first game on Yoshi Story's, but second game he picked up and beat me 3-1 in a pretty even best of 5.
I was too stupid to slow down and think what mistakes I did before I started the next match but afterwards I realized my spacing had been pretty poor all set long. Tornberry had realized this after game 1 and simply dashdanced grabbed me so many times I lost count.
10 seconds after the set was over I was pretty mad at myself as I realized if I just overshot a bit more or just played more patient I might have come out on top.
We both did some fancy combos and stuff but it came down to who got the first hit most of the times (dashdance grab). Dittos... spacing fest.
Remember kids, think between games what you did wrong and just don't rush on to the next one .. :3
leffen
Smash Champion
Tonberry, not Tornberry ;o
fox dittos are really all about outsmarting your opponent BUT since fox has so many options you can get unpredictable/just straight up better unlocking new options through better tech skill etc, and this really isnt the case for most dittos (esp Sheik dittos).
fox dittos are really all about outsmarting your opponent BUT since fox has so many options you can get unpredictable/just straight up better unlocking new options through better tech skill etc, and this really isnt the case for most dittos (esp Sheik dittos).