Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[bubbaking]

Bubba I was asking for a more specific answer. Also if you guys could go to my Critique thread and check out my matches against sung that would make me so happy.

What kind of specific answer were you looking for? I think I gave you one for the Spacees. What did you mean by punishing "jump out of dthrow" and "jump fair out of dthrow" against Marth? As for general advice, if I'm not baiting him to act first or if he simply isn't acting, I usually try to sneak something in before he can react, like dash jc grab or dash attack. I'm not exactly sure, but I don't think Marth has too many fast options to deal w/ a speedy Sheik.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Marth can deal with a "speedy" Sheik just fine. Simple defense will trump that style. What Marth struggles with is a "smart" Sheik that understands how to break up his dash dancing, attack his weak spots, and do massive punishes from throw.

 

[bubbaking]

That's true, although imo, it's not too hard to dish out "massive punishes from throw". That's why I'm confused as to the nature of joejoe's Q about punishing jump out of dthrow.

 

[joejoe22802]

Bubba what I was saying is that there are many ways to play after a downthrow or a throw off the stage. Some actions will cover certain options and leave one open and others will punish one option really hard. I was asking specifically during the first down throw of a match, how would you choose to go. This is definitely more relevant to the throwing off/gimp side of things.

Also Marth is really easy to combo off the downthrow but sometimes I find Marths jumping out of my downthrow. Not sure when this is the case or why? Am I just too slow on the fair/tilt?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Bubba what I was saying is that there are many ways to play after a downthrow or a throw off the stage. Some actions will cover certain options and leave one open and others will punish one option really hard. I was asking specifically during the first down throw of a match, how would you choose to go. This is definitely more relevant to the throwing off/gimp side of things.

I do something based on what I think my opponent will do when gimping.

Generally, I have most success with run off FF DJ against Foxes because a lot of them like to illusion or air-dodge, and that strategy is very good against them. If it's Falco, I just don't want to get counter-gimped by instant-DJ dairs (which people do), so I'm more apt to stay onstage with something.

Also Marth is really easy to combo off the downthrow but sometimes I find Marths jumping out of my downthrow. Not sure when this is the case or why? Am I just too slow on the fair/tilt?

Post a video where this problem comes up if you want me to tell you exactly what you're doing wrong. Otherwise, I'm going to assume that you (like almost every other Sheik in existence) are slow out of down throw and that is the issue.

That's true, although imo, it's not too hard to dish out "massive punishes from throw". That's why I'm confused as to the nature of joejoe's Q about punishing jump out of dthrow.

You'd think that, but only a handful Sheiks in existence have anything close to a decent throw game on Marth.

 

[omgwtfToph]

We both did some fancy combos and stuff but it came down to who got the first hit most of the times (dashdance grab). Dittos... spacing fest.

Remember kids, think between games what you did wrong and just don't rush on to the next one .. :3

That's just you cherrypicking and oversimplifying dittos in general. Just because you lost a set because you got dashdance grabbed a lot doesn't mean that dittos are unilaterally "spacing fests." If you had played an uber-technical Fox and just got out-combo'd/punished, you could've came on and said "Dittos... techskill fest." Everything matters in a ditto; it's just another matchup.


Edit: Chaingrab question that I'm sure has been asked many times but I read all the Sheik ditto guides and there isn't much information on it: How exactly do you re-grab Sheik at 0% if she DI's away from you? Should you just wait and techchase (like you would a fastfaller) until about 20%? Or is there something I'm missing here? I was told never to JC grab during chaingrabs, that dash grab is always better; is that true?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I just do a dash grab super super perfectly. You kind of have to do it in place, if that makes sense. It's a tight window.

Alternatively jab > regrab, f-tilt, or try to tech chase them.

I think you need a fresh grab for it to work (the whole 8 damage) but don't quote me on that.

 

[Strong Badam]

depending on port it might not be possible to regrab at 0 I'd have to test it

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm always lower port (4) by choice so that may be relevant to your testing.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

4 is the higher port

 

[Kaffei]

4 is the higher port

I thought in Melee 1 is highest and in Brawl 4 is highest?

 

[bubbaking]

I'm pretty sure in Melee that 1 is the higher port. Also, how do ports affect things in Melee? I've heard various G&W things but are there any actual facts I can confirm from the experts.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

4 is greater than 1 therefore 4 is higher than 1. (or at least thats how i think of it)

in melee, the lower port (closest to first port) has the advantage in virtually every scenario.

 

[bubbaking]

Oh wow! :O So how would this affect a Sheik CG on another Sheik?

 

[Kaffei]

4 is greater than 1 therefore 4 is higher than 1. (or at least thats how i think of it)

in melee, the lower port (closest to first port) has the advantage in virtually every scenario.

Rules of Priority

1st off, there's more information here on the 10th and 13th posts (which are my posts): http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=543627#post543627

The rules of priority, which is when 2 attacks hit each other at the same time (same frame) and the one with more priority overwrites the other attack, are the following things. Also, priority can mean when 2 or more characters do some certain task, like picking up an item or hitting a character, which one overwrites the other and gets the task done. It always follows the pattern of:

Player 1 > Player 2 > Player 3 > Player 4

So basically it's like this...
Player 1 has a very slight advantage over Players 2, 3, and 4.
Player 2 has an advantage over Player 3 and Player 4.
Player 3 has an advantage over Player 4.
Player 4 doesn't have an advantage over anyone.

---Yes it's an automatic unfair advantage, so don't complain to me about it; it's not like I can really do anything about it.

Priority Rules 2-6 follow this order.

1) Attacks like Mewtwo's Confusion (forward or back B) and EVERY type of grab & throw move (and Jigglypuff's Down B move, since it's very strong and makes you invincible for the 1st 26 frames out of the 249 frames or 4.15 seconds the move [animation] lasts) has more priority than any other attack, and will ALWAYS overwrite the other attack (for the exception of Priority Rule #2). If 2 attacks, say a regular grab and Bowser's fully charged forward A smash, hit at the same frame, then the grab will over-prioritize the smash, because grabs have more priority than regular smashes. But, if a weak attack, like the 1st hit in Sheik's forward smash, and a more powerful hit, like Falco's forward A smash (even Fox's forward A smash would work in this case), hit at the same time, Falco/Fox's smash would over-prioritize Sheik's smash, because it's more powerful. If it was a very close match, like Mario and Luigi's down smash at the same time, they'd simply cancel each other out. That's because as long as the 2 attacks are RELATIVELY the same strength (to a certain level of closeness in power, at which the exact level of which that is unknown), then the 2 attacks will cancel each other out. If they cancel each other out, then the weaker of the 2 attacks (in terms of DAMAGE power, NOT knocking power) will have less lag, or less recovery time than the stronger move that it canceled out with. However, if at least one of the attacks is an AERIAL attack, then it will either over-prioritize the other attack, or it will (99% of the time) hit the other attack and both characters will receive damage.

2) This is the order in which attacks like Mewtwo's Confusion and Grabs will over-prioritize each other (since 2 character's can't grab each at the same time, and two characters can't be hit in Confusion at the same time).
Player 1 > Player 2 > Player 3 > Player 4
So as you see, regardless who the character is, and regardless if it's a human player or a computer controlled player, if two characters hit each other with Confusion or any type of grab at the SAME EXACT FRAME, then the Player that's player 1, or the player that's closer to being player 1, will over-prioritize the player(s) who has a lower number than him/her. For example, if Player 1 and 3 grab each other, and player 2 and 4 grab each other, Player 1 will over-prioritize and grab player 3, and player 2 will over-prioritize and grab player 4, because player 1 is closer to being player 1 than player 3 is (in this case, player 1 IS player 1) and player 2 is closer to being player 1 than player 4 is, so they're over-prioritize the other character for this reason. Therefore, we can conclude that player 1, and in melees, characters that are closer to being player 1, have a VERY VERY SLIGHT advantage over the other characters.

3) A lot like the 2nd rule of priority, this simply shows that in this order
Player 1 > Player 2 > Player 3 > Player 4
If two characters hit a 3rd character at the same time WITH THE SAME STRENGTH OF AN ATTACK(stronger ALWAYS goes over weaker), then player 1, or the attacking character that's closer to being player 1, will knock the character the way that it would normally hit it. For example, Player 1 is on the left side of the victim character. Player 2 is on the right of the victim character. Both characters do a move, say a forward smash, which would normally knock the character forward (really up-forward). They do the move at the same time. Well, since player 1 has more priority than player 2, and since player 2 is standing on the left side of the character, and the attack they did would knock the victim character forward (to the right), player 1 would get the hit and would knock the character to the right. So player 1, and characters closer to being player 1 (in this case it IS player 1), have a better chance of getting credit for kills(slightly).

4) During a sudden death match, In this same order as rule #2 and #3
Player 1 > Player 2 > Player 3 > Player 4
If on a sudden death match, 2 or more characters die at the same EXACT frame, then the Player 1, or players closer to being player 1, will win the match, because there are no sudden death matches for draws if you die DURING a sudden death match. There has to be a winner in a Sudden Death Match, so it goes in numerical order.

5) If 2 or more characters try to pick up any item(including barrels, crates and party balls) on the ground at the same time (speed [NOT priority]) varies with each character, as shown on some of my other lists on my homepage here) then:
Player 1 > Player 2 > Player 3 > Player 4
Giving Player 1 a slight edge over the competition when picking up items, Player 2 a slight edge over Player 3 and 4, and Player 3 a slight advantage over Player 4.

6) If 2 or more characters land in the same EXACT spot (on the ground of course), then Player 1, or the player closer to being Player 1, will always go to the LEFT side (since the players can't stay INSIDE of each other, at least not on the ground) (please no jokes about characters being "inside" Yoshi or Kirby, haha..no).

I saved M2K's websites and considering his past dedication to the game I'm inclined to believe him

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Isnt that what i just said?

 

[Kaffei]

Isnt that what i just said?

Yes, that is. I can't read.
/dyslexia johns

 

[john!]

"higher priority" generally means "goes first" so it's misleading to say that "higher port = higher priority"

 

[bubbaking]

Wow, I guess that's one of the things they kind of "fixed" in Brawl... O_o

 

[Strong Badam]

no they didn't. o_O

 

[bubbaking]

Well, they did for those specific scenarios, but then they introduced new ones. Grab priority is random in Brawl. If two chars grab each other at the same time, whoever wins is random.

 

[Strong Badam]

You think I didn't know that?

 

[bubbaking]

Don't know, it's all pretty new to me. All I'd ever heard were rumors and I never bothered to check and see if it was true. Excuse the ignorance...

 

[Strong Badam]

THERE IS NO EXCUSE
This post is in all capital letters

 

[bubbaking]

:'((((((((

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

"higher priority" generally means "goes first" so it's misleading to say that "higher port = higher priority"

Yes. But nobody said "higher priority", they said "higher port"

 

[bubbaking]

Well, doesn't higher port equate to higher priority and NOT just the larger port number?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think the higher number is the lower port because I think of it in terms of priority (lower port = worse port). But I can see how that could be misleading.

 

[Kaffei]

Well, they did for those specific scenarios, but then they introduced new ones. Grab priority is random in Brawl. If two chars grab each other at the same time, whoever wins is random.

Wtf seriously? I thought it mattered from 4>3>2>1

 

[omgwtfToph]

I just do a dash grab super super perfectly. You kind of have to do it in place, if that makes sense. It's a tight window.

Hang on a second. I just looked up the frame data for Sheik's grabs and her standing grab (and therefore JC grab) comes out a frame faster than the dash grab. So wouldn't it be better to JC grab for chaingrabs, especially if the timing is tight?

 

[Teczer0]

Jc reaches less though. 1 frame difference isn't a huge deal so I would assume dash is better.

 

[KirbyKaze]

JC grab burns a frame when you cancel the jump so a dash forward > JC grab and a dash grab are actually the same speed. So, in this case, the dash grab hitting further ahead and lower is more useful and makes it much easier/possible.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think the higher number is the lower port because I think of it in terms of priority (lower port = worse port). But I can see how that could be misleading.

Ok so its just semantics haha

 

[Strong Badam]

JC grab burns a frame when you cancel the jump so a dash forward > JC grab and a dash grab are actually the same speed. So, in this case, the dash grab hitting further ahead and lower is more useful and makes it much easier/possible.

Indeed. The main advantage of JCing a grab is to have less endlag afterward.

 

[omgwtfToph]

JC grab burns a frame when you cancel the jump so a dash forward > JC grab and a dash grab are actually the same speed. So, in this case, the dash grab hitting further ahead and lower is more useful and makes it much easier/possible.

Ohhhhhhhhh.

Thanks guys. I didn't even look at the hitboxes; I had no idea the reach was lower.

 

[mers]

Can somebody explain the weird throw things that are port dependent? Like Doc's dthrow on GnW or whatever?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think its all G&W dependent, you should check their forums for details or ask someone who caresStrong Bad

 

[Strong Badam]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9820998#post9820998

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

ahah! storing that in my memory banks...

 

[bubbaking]

Wtf seriously? I thought it mattered from 4>3>2>1

That order does exist, but not for two chars grabbing each other. It's for situations like when an attack hits two chars, one of which is grabbing the other. Then, the higher port (closer to 4) takes damage, but remains put, while the other player receives both damage and knockback. I believe there is actually a team tactic called omnigay based off of this that involves Snake/Link/Toon Link and MK/Kirby.