Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[garrR]

Fox shouldn't camp you -->Needles

Don't run recklessly, plays with needles, short hop and platforms.

not really seeing how needles beat a camping fox. standing needles do way less damage than SHDL, so you come up on the losing side. you can't do aerial needles because he's camping under the platform.

 

[Nedved]

On DL64, you should use the platforms to avoid lasers. Then you can charge needles. If he just jump on and try to SHDL, you should move on the middle platforms or just go back to the floor.

Needles can beat Fox cause if you hit him with needles, he is in a pretty bad situation.
Fox camps so you will rush with a poor approach.

Also, when i go against a campy Fox, i just try to avoid laser, then throw needles, or SH needles. and then Fox always changes his gameplay. I probably lacks experience against a really really campy Fox, but I always managed to make them come at me.

Also, remember, 'You don't have to go to him if you don't want him.'

Maybe KK or someone could help you better than i did.
It's pretty late (01:30 in France) so my english is probably awful. Sorry :/

 

[Teczer0]

I sorta disagree with almost your entire argument hahahaha.

I play the match up totally the opposite way.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fox's lasers do outpace Sheik's needles but it's not by a particularly large amount. It generally boils down to patience if you're gonna try to get into a full screen war.

 

[garrR]

Fox's lasers do outpace Sheik's needles but it's not by a particularly large amount. It generally boils down to patience if you're gonna try to get into a full screen war.

when i try to approach , i usually get SH naired, then the fox runs back and repeats.

do you suggest approaching, or just playing the full screen camp game?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Personally? I'd do neither.

Move towards him and defend the areas he can approach you from with whatever seems appropriate (probably a mix of bair, fair, f-tilt but other moves work too). Remember that even though you're closing in on him, your goal is more to scare him into making the first move so jumping back with SH fair or bair is completely acceptable. If he lets you get too close without attacking you, boost grab and dash attack are reasonable options to attack into his space. Don't dash attack at 0 and remember that boost grab goes through blocking. Lasers don't stun so eating a few here and there if it means he's not really getting anything done (like, landing a shine, grab, etc.) is totally acceptable.



.

 

[Kaffei]

Thanks for your insight KK =D

 

[KirbyKaze]

Now go on and zone them, youngling!

 

[Kaffei]

yes sir 8D

btw how do you deal with falco's lasers? i saw you fight Dr. PP and i was like.. wow plz.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I can't give away all my secrets.

But it has to do with not letting them stabilize. And I kind of knew how to play to PP's patience. Being more patient than me is... hard.

 

[Kaffei]

;_;
Just one secret. Pretty please?
Also what do you mean by stabilize?

 

[KirbyKaze]

When you have a Falco that cannot laser safely, as a character that's when he's most off-balance. That's when he's lost his stability. Your goal from that point is to figure out whether he's gonna try and get super defensive and force himself back into good laser spacing, or throw out attacks out desperation. And other nonsense.

If you can tell which one he's going to do (there are more, but those are the two common ones) then you can kill him efficiently and viciously. And you'll feel awesome for doing it. He's still a fairly decent character when he doesn't have the opponent buried in red tape, but his vulnerabilities are way easier to attack at that time. Especially for such a defensive juggernaut like Sheik.

It occurs to me now that what I consider "basic" for this character is not what everyone else considers basic so I'll add a simple strat. SH over low lasers and dash under high lasers is great. Wavelanding off of or onto a platform is also a good mix to try and force him to shoot higher (or attack from the ground) to make easy 50/50 mixups and other shenanigans.

 

[Kaffei]

ooooo very cool.. Thanks again, KK. Much appreciated =D

im beginning to understand this game more! no more brawl

 

[-Vocal-]

I feel like a noob for asking, but how do you boost grab?

 

[KirbyKaze]

dash > A > L or R or Z

 

[Nedved]

Teczero : As I said, when I play a campy Fox, they are not too campy, so I probably lack experience, but I never had any problem yet.
If there is better way to deal with, I'm gonna read it and learn it. (So, when my way to deal with will fail, I will know what to do ^^ )

edit :

I was thinking and...
When a Sheik go for an edgehog, if the opponents go back on stage, what is the best way to punish ?

-Ledge hop Fair is good but tech it is pretty easy.
-Ledge hop Bair is not a very good option i think.
-Ledge hop Dair usually leads into a Bair/Fair/Reverse Fair and is pretty decent IMO.
-Ledge hop reverse fair is cool but it's not easy to use :/

So are they any other options ? ore should i pick one depending on the character and the stage ?
Also, Darko show me a trick : he ledge hop, reverse needle and cancel, then do a fair before landing. I never saw any other Sheik do it. Why ?

 

[KirbyKaze]

^ character dependent.

Peach - backwards fair or nair
Marth - ledgehop dair because of the combo, or backwards nair
Sheik - ledgehop dair because of the combo, or backwards nair
Fox/Falco - dair if you can and do a gigantic death combo or hit them backwards (probably with bair)
Falcon - I like dair and bair but it doesn't matter too much tbh

Don't stick to such a formulaic way of doing it though. Ledgehop uair has served me very well (you're PAL so it probably doesn't work because PAL Sheik is low tier but w/e) by giving me some sick combos and setups at low percents when I've not been confident in gimping 'cuz the opponent was a floaty or something. In general, bair is a fairly all-purpose edgeguard as long as you sweetspot it and it goes really high with a ton of range so it often works easier and about the same as the other stuff I've got up there.

Ledgehop RNS fair is slow and gives them a lot of time to prepare the tech (if you're doing it as a landing lag punish), or simply change strategies and go for the edge or whatever. That's probably why I don't do it. It's not too difficult to hit the fair backwards anyway, or hit something else that's substantial. Consistency is important.

 

[GaGa]

First off, let me say that I adore you KK :3
(anyone is free to answer my question though,
Btw)


As for my question...er..it's a bit complicated. I played PP at a recent tournament and he THRASHED me with Marth. He mixed up he approaches fairly well..but since I didn't know how to deal with then, i was pretty much a sitting duck for the whole match. His spacing was pretty **** too. I got punished so hard. Occasionally I was able to get in and do some damage, but it was not comparable to the damage he would rack up on one punish.


I know this is very situational, but I know Sheik should be ****** on her grabs. I would barely get a grab, f-tilt. At 0% , how should I react after a grab?


Also, when it comes to edge guarding and cornering, what's the best approach to keeping Marth in a bad position?

 

[-Vocal-]

How do you backwards Fair? Does it involved turning around with a needle, or just aiming precisely so that the back of the hitbox connects as opposed to the front?

 

[KirbyKaze]

GaGa, I made a thread just for you and every other person that's ever asked me that question (a lot). http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13464848#post13464848

Backwards fair just hit with the backside of the hitbox. RNS = reverse needle store and I'm tired of writing "reverse needle store" out fully every time so I'm abbreviating it henceforth. I think soap abbreviated it like that a while ago anyway but it didn't stick. Whatever. RNS fair is slow which is why I prefer just hitting my fairs backwards properly. Or, if that's too difficult, it's probably because they're low to the ground in which case I can grab or dair for a comparable (and often better) punish anyway.

 

[Teczer0]

RNS is a pretty neat acronym. Also I should practice hitting reverse fair more.

They're still pretty hard for me =[

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Just wanna say m2k's sheik at G2 was the best sheik play ive ever seen in my life.

 

[soap]

^ character dependent.

Peach - backwards fair or nair
Marth - ledgehop dair because of the combo, or backwards nair
Sheik - ledgehop dair because of the combo, or backwards nair
Fox/Falco - dair if you can and do a gigantic death combo or hit them backwards (probably with bair)
Falcon - I like dair and bair but it doesn't matter too much tbh

Don't stick to such a formulaic way of doing it though. Ledgehop uair has served me very well (you're PAL so it probably doesn't work because PAL Sheik is low tier but w/e) by giving me some sick combos and setups at low percents when I've not been confident in gimping 'cuz the opponent was a floaty or something. In general, bair is a fairly all-purpose edgeguard as long as you sweetspot it and it goes really high with a ton of range so it often works easier and about the same as the other stuff I've got up there.

Ledgehop RNS fair is slow and gives them a lot of time to prepare the tech (if you're doing it as a landing lag punish), or simply change strategies and go for the edge or whatever. That's probably why I don't do it. It's not too difficult to hit the fair backwards anyway, or hit something else that's substantial. Consistency is important.

Bair is the easiest thing to do imo. Prolly like 90% of my edgeguards.

But all those options have their time and place.

Don't limit yourself to aerials either. If they are clearly overshooting you can waveland back up into utilt or whatever as well.

 

[garrR]

Bair is the easiest thing to do imo. Prolly like 90% of my edgeguards.

But all those options have their time and place.

Don't limit yourself to aerials either. If they are clearly overshooting you can waveland back up into utilt or whatever as well.

do you just hit with a weak bair then? i've tried bair a few times and it doesn't really seem to knock them off far enough.

 

[KirbyKaze]

weak hit bair > another bair or fair is pretty good lol

simply strong hitting it is better though

nair is like a bair you don't have to space for it to be strong hit but it's also a bit laggier idk use at your own list

 

[Kaffei]

can marth do a fthrow chaingrab to sheik at 0%
my friend keeps doing this to me and idk what to do LOL

 

[Teczer0]

I *think* you can escape it by DIing away and buffering a roll/sidestep.

I know fox/falco can I believe the timing should be similar.

Also, its nice to see this place active. Well more active than it was before. Good stuff KK for being so helpful.

If I could give you positive points I would.

But I guess we'll just have to wait till RoM to chill and hug and stuff.

Also, we should like talk Sheik theories again like we used to way back when.

 

[omgwtfToph]

sheik is so sick

 

[Jolteon]

Agreed.

What a boss.

 

[gm jack]

She slaps stuff and ain't afraid of nothing.

 

[Kaffei]

What % can Jiggs crouch cancel to rest up to?
Also is dair bad vs jiggs

and can marth do a fthrow chaingrab to sheik at 0%
my friend keeps doing this to me and idk what to do !!

 

[Nedved]

Against the fthrow chain grab, you can escape it (at least the second throw)

The third throw will put you on the floor (well, my english is not that good and i can't remember how to say it, but the third throw is techable).
If you DI away and buffered a spotdodge/roll you might avoid it.

dair against puff... if puff crouch it, you're dead, if she doesn't/can't, she gets a slap.

 

[Kaffei]

i mean like if she was approaching from the air and then u jumped over her and came down with a dair when puff is mid % or something

idk fml LOL

 

[KirbyKaze]

What % can Jiggs crouch cancel to rest up to?
Also is dair bad vs jiggs

and can marth do a fthrow chaingrab to sheik at 0%
my friend keeps doing this to me and idk what to do !!

Answers ordered for your questions respectively:

Depends on the move and whether it's fake cc or not. In general I find down smash becomes good against crouching Puff around 30. Fair, bair, nair are fine as long as they're spaced. In general you shouldn't be attacking Puff's duck except with air needles, fair, and down smash though TBQH.

Everything is bad vs Puff because it's a losing MU.
More serious reply is: yes and no. If you can hit dair, it's awesome because it leads to sensual nonsense (I like up air!). Its lower range and higher startup than your typical aerial (nair, fair, bair) makes it harder to hit, however. So it can be unwieldy. That said, it's not bad to experiment with it. Jumping over a reckless Puff f-smash, dash attack, nair, etc. and punishing with dair can be a good way to start a decent combo at low-medium percents. Remember that it hangs out for a while and you can drift with it to position yourself out of rest oos range (which is important because, well, duh).

No. DI down and away to escape that and then either dash (requires skill), buffer something (requires no skill), or mash out an attack like down smash (requires no skill). It is understandable to be hit by it once at the start of a throw combo because of Marth's fast throw but it's not a legitimate CG so you should take appropriate measures after the first throw (at the very least).

 

[Kaffei]

Much, much, much appreciated, KK. I'm so glad that it's not a chain grab xD
Always made me lose stage control

 

[joejoe22802]

Anyone have links to some Captain Falcon Match Up stuff? The links on the first page seem to be broken.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If he approaches with a SHFFL or SH aerial, I like f-tilt, fair, and d-tilt for defense. Especially d-tilt. If he approaches from higher, I like bair, up tilt, and f-tilt as a defense. But fair also works.

I really like crouching in this matchup because it's difficult for Falcon to do tight movements efficiently because of how much ground he covers with everything he does. So by compacting your body when you're not moving, it makes you that much better defended from his typical "spacing aerials" like nair and whatever. He has to aim lower or predict you moving out of crouch, which makes his air vs your ground game a lot more simplified, which Sheik likes.

If Falcon doesn't DI away from your throw, you can combo most of your relevant ground moveset on him (basically any tilt, jab, and down smash). Knowing this can make for some good combos. Also, Falcon can ASDI out of your jab resets at 32% so don't do those after 32%. He can SDI out of them below that and it's not too difficult, but if you hit one you can fairly easily hit him with the double up smash hit, which leads to massive damage and often good combos (to perform, dash inside his body as he's standing and JC up smash; both hits connect; it's easiest when he DIs away but you should be up tilting on non-DI away most of the time anyway).

I'd talk about ranges but my opinion of significant ranges for Sheik is sort of under construction for this MU at this point so I'm not really sure what to say about it. So maybe Teczero or someone can field that one for me.

 

[gm jack]

I find it easy (on a basic, learning the match up level) to think about falcon having very limited effective ranges.

His SH has either tiny or huge range, depending on if he is dashing or not. This leaves a huge dead zone in the middle where he can't do any shffls either spaced or so that they hit. Crouching makes this even better, as some stuff will go over your head and a lot will be cced, but KK already covered that.

Once you are in this zone, which is surprisingly close to him, he has really few good options. What with you being able to shut down every approach he has (see KK's post), you really get to reign in his mobility, and either get huge stage control, or force him to do something.

Now, obviously, platforms mess with this a huge amount, as he suddenly get a lot more options. However, so long as you stay below him, your move set will beat his, and if you can bait a double jump, you should either get a nice combo started or force him off stage.

 

[Van.]

kk why did you call me a biter in the samus thread

what does a biter mean

 

[Kaffei]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=biter