Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[KirbyKaze]

mostly yes, but don't quote me

i'm not sure how hitboxes and crap work in that one because technically you tie

and while it's true that grab > attack in this game's priority system

falco's leg is bigger than your hand and aims at your face

his red bubbles are also bigger

so i'm not sure

but tbh if you time perfectly (which you can learn) it probably won't matter because perfect bair oos will ALMOST NEVER come up

so yeah vs falco it's pretty good

 

[soap]

the last hit of the utilt actually ends slightly behind sheik....so being behind their shield backwards and inside them creates a smaller window between the last hit and your next action

i've run past shields wavedashed back into it and utilted then grabbed. I don't know about the frames but that whole operation I listed is certainly not safe haha

I want to know the frames of sh autocancel fair on shield into grab . I do it to people all the time, in particular slow grab characters or people with no grab range.

 

[Rubyiris]

As Sheik vs Falco, under the GSG2 ruleset (No Brinstar, no RC) what stages are Sheik's generally going to try to strike to G1, and which stage(s) are they going to try to counterpick, and why?

 

[KirbyKaze]

They'll ban PS or FD

You'll probably get struck to a small stage because lasers are Falco's best strat vs Sheik

They'll probably CP Battlefield or FoD

 

[Ministry]

if you nair OOS at falco and the front part of your leg hits falcos sheild, is that enough of your body for his Shine OOS to hit you?

i always have problems spacing the nair on falco/falcos sheild how much of a gap is there from what he can shine OOS and what he cant?

Against a laser heavy falco how do i get in on flat stages?

I got pressured pretty hard by zeus's/kels falco in MI.
I Don't want to shield, because im just stuck in sheild and its just hitstun.
I also dont want to not sheild and take the hits. But do i go into the air? i have no way down on falco, and if its low percent forget about using any move anyway.

i need some advice in the falco matchup, more spacing advice then move options.
im completly lost in this matchup in terms of getting hits and building damage. IM fine off of grabs, but thats about it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Its helpful to think about moves as just hitboxes and lag (and commitment). A lot of brilliant ideas i've had has come from that mindset, but I can't think purely in that form without being really stoned XD

ministry, I was doing pretty good against zeus and kels the night before using sheik. On non-fd, I like to go to the middle platform to force them to stop lasering and approach for more hitbox based spacing. Your main threat is the fastfalled fair or bair off the platform. Mixups are endless. If they don't want to come at you, they will eventually have to laser higher, and you use their jump to get on the ground and run under them.

 

[soap]

u can always safely space fair and bair on falco at any percent. just recognize the crouch cancel and jump again or dash away

But ya I lost to Kels and zeus in bracket sooooo..lol

fun dittos Ministry

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

soap, why didnt we play? I saw you there, but i didn't know if you recognized me or even remembered me.

 

[soap]

I both recognized and remembered you.

I did not even say hello how rude of me

I was very sleep deprived and not thinking straight haha

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

same here. me kels and dart stayed up all night smashing lmao

 

[Kira-]

You know how you can do a move almost immediately after getting hit by a Falco laser? Is there a way to always do this? I was messing around with it yesterday and sometimes a move comes out right away and sometimes I can't move for awhile... anyone have frame data on this?

 

[Ministry]

u can always safely space fair and bair on falco at any percent. just recognize the crouch cancel and jump again or dash away

But ya I lost to Kels and zeus in bracket sooooo..lol

fun dittos Ministry

You can hit her sheild and jump out/dash away before he can CC?

 

[KirbyKaze]

if she's blocking how is she also ccing

and yeah you can before shield grabs and stuff if you're quick and do the aerial relatively low (or high enough that it autocancels)

spacing it makes the window bigger so do that too

 

[soap]

if she's blocking how is she also ccing

and yeah you can before shield grabs and stuff if you're quick and do the aerial relatively low (or high enough that it autocancels)

spacing it makes the window bigger so do that too

basically what he said. space it low and far away as you can. short hop again. Its pretty good against every character, but comes in real handy against crouching jiggs

 

[ChivalRuse]

You know how you can do a move almost immediately after getting hit by a Falco laser? Is there a way to always do this? I was messing around with it yesterday and sometimes a move comes out right away and sometimes I can't move for awhile... anyone have frame data on this?

I can't tell if your avatar is a head without a face or a signature. xP

Sorry if this post isn't relevant. I just had to ask, and I hate the PM system.

 

[Kira-]

I can't tell if your avatar is a head without a face or a signature. xP

Sorry if this post isn't relevant. I just had to ask, and I hate the PM system.

It's actually Ramona Flowers =P

So a head without a face lol

 

[CanISmash]

what does everybody use to shino stall

also tips on ledge waveland onto stage with invincibility. tryna get these two tactics down but I feel my wd is either too short or not invincible and with the shino i do a lot of accidental jumping from the ledge and or turning into zelda. =/

 

[soap]

what does everybody use to shino stall

also tips on ledge waveland onto stage with invincibility. tryna get these two tactics down but I feel my wd is either too short or not invincible and with the shino i do a lot of accidental jumping from the ledge and or turning into zelda. =/

ledge stall - down, upb, down, release. get the rhythym down. there is a split second u have to wait to repeat once u regrab.

for ledgedash, i tap down gently as if dtlilting on a platform, then jump and angle forward and down slightly higher than 45 degrees up, airdodge. important to release asap from ledge to retain invincibility

 

[ChivalRuse]

Shino stall takes like no skill but I randomly mess it up sometimes for no reason whatsoever.

 

[Twin_A]

I'll sometimes accidentaly change into Zelda or start charging needles. Very rarely but when it happens it sucks haha.

 

[KirbyKaze]

in terms of duration, all you need to be able to do with poofstall is do it through a brinstar cycle

if you can do that, you're golden

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

when did brinstar come in this?

 

[ZoSo]

You know how you can do a move almost immediately after getting hit by a Falco laser? Is there a way to always do this? I was messing around with it yesterday and sometimes a move comes out right away and sometimes I can't move for awhile... anyone have frame data on this?

This reminds me, I found something weird recently and I'm not sure if it's been documented.

You can CC lasers to reduce the hitstun, but... it's weird. It's not like "normal" CC'ing. "Normal" CC'ing can be done during animations (grabs, tilts, et cetera) or even while airborne because it's just a matter of SDI'ing or ASDI'ing down. You can't do this with lasers though. It has something to do with the actual crouching animation itself.

I'm not sure if the numbers are different for Sheik, but Marth incurs 12 frames of hitstun if he gets hit by a laser and 6 if he gets hit while crouching. You don't even have to be fully crouched; if you're just standing there and you press down on the frame you get hit by a laser, you'll still incur 6 frames of hitstun.

I hope this helps?

Also, I'm in love with your avatar!

if she's blocking how is she also ccing

You never hold down while shielding?

in terms of duration, all you need to be able to do with poofstall is do it through a brinstar cycle

if you can do that, you're golden

I've been meaning to practice this.

 

[Winston]

ZoSo I don't think there's anything weird about that.

True CCing (actually being in the crouch animation) halves the hitstun of every move, not just Falco's lasers. ASDI down (holding down while in another animation) just prevents you from being knocked over sometimes; it doesn't reduce the hitstun.

True CC also prevents you from being knocked over until way higher percents than the ASDI down. They behave fairly differently vs. all moves, not just lasers.

 

[ZoSo]

True CCing (actually being in the crouch animation) halves the hitstun of every move, not just Falco's lasers.

EVERY move? You're sure about that?

 

[KirbyKaze]

You never hold down while shielding?

You can hit her sheild and jump out/dash away before he can CC?

Holding down while shielding is fine but that's not what I was addressing.

In hindsight I should have worded it as, "If you hit her shield and therefore she blocks the move then how can she also attempt a crouch cancel punish?"

 

[Winston]

EVERY move? You're sure about that?

Okay, well excluding moves that send you downwards (falco/falcon/fox's dair and the like) ...

Pretty much everything in my personal experience supports that claim.

Plus, this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=60218

 

[ChivalRuse]

I think Dogysamich told me that CCing pills doesn't reduce their hitstun.

 

[Kira-]

Falco and Falcon dairs are definitely CC-able. MacD used to CC bad Falco dairs at 0% and dsmash them out of it. It was infuriating.

This reminds me, I found something weird recently and I'm not sure if it's been documented.

You can CC lasers to reduce the hitstun, but... it's weird. It's not like "normal" CC'ing. "Normal" CC'ing can be done during animations (grabs, tilts, et cetera) or even while airborne because it's just a matter of SDI'ing or ASDI'ing down. You can't do this with lasers though. It has something to do with the actual crouching animation itself.

I'm not sure if the numbers are different for Sheik, but Marth incurs 12 frames of hitstun if he gets hit by a laser and 6 if he gets hit while crouching. You don't even have to be fully crouched; if you're just standing there and you press down on the frame you get hit by a laser, you'll still incur 6 frames of hitstun.

I hope this helps?

Also, I'm in love with your avatar!

That's interesting. Maybe I'm seeing it wrong but I thought there was basically like 3 situations. Either you move almost instantly after getting hit by a laser (and iirc I've seen this done while airborne), or you do a slightly slower but still quick move after being hit. Or you just don't move right and get stalled for awhile. I tried to find a video where I've seen this happen but I couldn't find a good example, just the "fast but not lightning fast" kind of response.

And Scott Pilgrim is awesome.

Magus420

 

[nicaboy]

So im trying to go to a tournament this weekend.......

needs ride

 

[KirbyKaze]

You got this

 

[nicaboy]

Hell ya i do now!

enter doubles with seibrik double sheik/sheik puff.

feeling good about singles too. Im off to steal good sheiks players tricks

Did someone say upsmash ftw?

 

[KirbyKaze]

U-smash is alright

 

[ZodiakLucien]

if you nair OOS at falco and the front part of your leg hits falcos sheild, is that enough of your body for his Shine OOS to hit you?
i always have problems spacing the nair on falco/falcos sheild how much of a gap is there from what he can shine OOS and what he cant?

Against a laser heavy falco how do i get in on flat stages?
I got pressured pretty hard by zeus's/kels falco in MI.
I Don't want to shield, because im just stuck in sheild and its just hitstun.
I also dont want to not sheild and take the hits. But do i go into the air? i have no way down on falco, and if its low percent forget about using any move anyway.

i need some advice in the falco matchup, more spacing advice then move options.
im completly lost in this matchup in terms of getting hits and building damage. IM fine off of grabs, but thats about it.

Bored at work might as well answer some of this.
Nair OOS:
If you space it right and drift back they cant shine oos. You have to worry about doing it at low percents because they can take the nair and just dair/nair/dash attack/whateverthe****theywant afterwards. Against fastfallers you unlock moves as their percents increase. Wavedashing out of shield is the best option till you can raise percents. For shines out of shield just do your aerials deeper and further away.

Approach spacing:
Learn to powershield. Run up and shield the laser and buffer a wavedash. If you hit the powershield you will wavedash out of it and you can go for a boost grab/dash attack/tilt. If you mess up the timing the shield stun from the laser will prevent the wavedash coming out if you do it fast enough.
Short hop aerials and falling back bairs are other alternatives. Just make sure to space it to either the tip of your moves hit something or you are out of range for their short hop dair to miss. Play the bait and hit game. For example space an aerial that looks punishable by dair/dash attack, and then pivot grab them.
Quick tips:
-Dont get directly above falco stay on ground level or around 45 degrees above him.
-dont challenge dairs, make them miss
-Nair at the right spots will at least trade with everything. Do not miss however.
-The only moves you should use at the start of the match are grab, bair, fair, and needles for the first 30ish percent. Everything else isnt worth the risk.
-You unlock moves as you build up percent.
-Stay in the middle of the stage, keep moving, dont stay in your shield.

Shield pressure answers:
-If they cross up your shield without a fast fall: wavedash other direction (if they go from right to left, wavedash right) and if there is room for a grab/dashattack/ftilt do it.
-Deep aerial shine to instant pull back: Immediately wavedash forward and grab/tilt them
-Standard perfect split pillar: Nair out of shield after the shine, you can do it after the aerial if they are doing the aerials high and your shield is fresh enough
-Aerials hitting the top of a fresh shield are always nair out of shieldable if in range
-Lasers/Bairs positioned just outside grab range/at rolling range: Wavedash back and SDI the laser back, If a platform is above you, waveland on it.
-Rapid waveshines: nair out of shield.
-If you are getting tagged by double shines wait for the second shine then nair

 

[soap]

Bored at work might as well answer some of this.
Nair OOS:
If you space it right and drift back they cant shine oos. You have to worry about doing it at low percents because they can take the nair and just dair/nair/dash attack/whateverthe****theywant afterwards. Against fastfallers you unlock moves as their percents increase. Wavedashing out of shield is the best option till you can raise percents. For shines out of shield just do your aerials deeper and further away.

Approach spacing:
Learn to powershield. Run up and shield the laser and buffer a wavedash. If you hit the powershield you will wavedash out of it and you can go for a boost grab/dash attack/tilt. If you mess up the timing the shield stun from the laser will prevent the wavedash coming out if you do it fast enough.
Short hop aerials and falling back bairs are other alternatives. Just make sure to space it to either the tip of your moves hit something or you are out of range for their short hop dair to miss. Play the bait and hit game. For example space an aerial that looks punishable by dair/dash attack, and then pivot grab them.
Quick tips:
-Dont get directly above falco stay on ground level or around 45 degrees above him.
-dont challenge dairs, make them miss
-Nair at the right spots will at least trade with everything. Do not miss however.
-The only moves you should use at the start of the match are grab, bair, fair, and needles for the first 30ish percent. Everything else isnt worth the risk.
-You unlock moves as you build up percent.
-Stay in the middle of the stage, keep moving, dont stay in your shield.

Shield pressure answers:
-If they cross up your shield without a fast fall: wavedash other direction (if they go from right to left, wavedash right) and if there is room for a grab/dashattack/ftilt do it.
-Deep aerial shine to instant pull back: Immediately wavedash forward and grab/tilt them
-Standard perfect split pillar: Nair out of shield after the shine, you can do it after the aerial if they are doing the aerials high and your shield is fresh enough
-Aerials hitting the top of a fresh shield are always nair out of shieldable if in range
-Lasers/Bairs positioned just outside grab range/at rolling range: Wavedash back and SDI the laser back, If a platform is above you, waveland on it.
-Rapid waveshines: nair out of shield.
-If you are getting tagged by double shines wait for the second shine then nair

I knew most of this but I don't actually follow it that well. thanks for typing this out.

 

[Tope]

darkrain is definitely better vs sheik than hax is...

at least he used to be when he actually played

 

[Witchblade]

Good post, Lucien. I like your anti-shield pressure tactics.

 

[KirbyKaze]

darkrain's sheik game

when he played

was like

the stuff that legends are made of

 

[CanISmash]

how do joo cc tech when you up b onto the stage. I remember amsah did it like every time so I wanna practice that....
?

 

[Teczer0]

I know theres a thread somewhere in MD when I'm not lazy I can go it.

But to put it simply you "suicide" DI the next hit.

So for instance say you're about to be fsmashed off to the right.

Well in order to double stick tech it you hit down and to the right and you hit L/R momentarily after the DI inputs.