h!tboxexplo!ter
Smash Ace
what are good bans and counterpicks against cf?
i figure ban dreamland and counter fd/yoshis?
i figure ban dreamland and counter fd/yoshis?
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Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA
- Thread starter KirbyKaze
- Start date
Dorsey
Banned via Warnings
I'll take a stab at this... Dream land would probably be my ban, possibly poke. Before the map list change, I would say CF would be probable to ban MC, being that if a sheik gets to know that map they can really abuse the lack of ledge on CF(but it's not legal anymore). Additionally, banning FoD is about as logical if not better for falcon being that FoD is his worst map, and it's particularly bad in the match-up as well. If they don't ban FoD I would definitely CP that. If not, I would CP yoshis... and my next choice would be FD.
Lawrencelot
Smash Lord
Falcons always ban BF against me, or sometimes FoD. Just counterpick either of those two. I counterpicked yoshi's once but that didn't turn out well for me, the close borders of the stage make killing with knees easy which can backfire for you. I like dreamland so I never ban it against falcon, but most falcons can indeed abuse the large amount of ground space there. I usually ban PS against Falcon, and if they are good on FD I ban that stage.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Yes.
No. On FD, he has an easy time grabbing you and getting around your needles and bairs. On Yoshi's, his knee kills you mad early. He can walljump, and Randall will save him once probably.
Depending on what he bans, CP Battlefield / FoD.
h!tboxexplo!ter
Smash Ace
ah i figured fd was good for techchasing plus i love fd for some reason
SFAT
Smash Ace
Campy Foxes are impossible to beat. Do you not all agree?
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
h!tboxexplo!ter
Smash Ace
all foxes are hard to beat.... at least we run fast tho they could screw up if theyre not careful
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I think it's winnable but you're right that campy Fox is a gigantic ***** with a *****.
h!tboxexplo!ter
Smash Ace
so i played a link... i was so utterly dumbfounded that i lost... lol wtf do u do against link?
i know theres a solid chaingrab to be had but all the projectiles make that hard to get. in addition i was having trouble once above him, and i couldnt really figure how to edgeguard
i know theres a solid chaingrab to be had but all the projectiles make that hard to get. in addition i was having trouble once above him, and i couldnt really figure how to edgeguard
Lordydennek
Smash Ace
I would never CP yoshis against a cf. wall jump knee will mess with your mind... FoD is usually my main pick. Battlfield isnt bad
Its quite difficult
Only Ness vs Marth is impossible imo.
Maybe Bowser vs sheik. Pichu is too good so nothing is impossible for pichu.
Lordydennek
Smash Ace
This is a lot harderhan the guide makes it sound. Yes the chain grab is solid. Link has a lot of lag time after his uair and dair even when shffled. you can dd around and avoid his aerials then punish with grab and stuff. you can jump and needle him if he throws the boomerang it will cancel it sometimes. i find that pressing link works well. stay close to him and dont let him space you. watch for his dsmash. he'll do that to get you in the air and combo. its basically a waiting game. punish his slow moves. grabs are your best bet tho.your edgegaurd is gonna be needles and bairs. bait his aerials with needle cancelling and double jumping. being above link is the worst place to be. your dsmash can work here too if you need space. it will beat most of his stuff. fair is excellent.
You're Sheik.
He's Link.
Make that low tier cry for the decisions he's made in life.
That's how you win that match up.
Or be a huge ******, which is the exact same thing.
Lordydennek
Smash Ace
Spife, you main Link. Has someone made you cry?
Lordydennek
Smash Ace
oh yes good point. I forget about old brinstar
nicaboy
Smash Champion
Lol link vs sheik has gotta be so bad for link. His projectiles all get beaten by a single needle . And you can cg and tilt combo and gimp him so easy. Who ever is link has got to have some big balls. Link stands no chance what so ever vs sheik.
Tell that to Skler and have him stop beating me
And I disagree with not CPing CF with YS.
Every falcon I fight bans FoD so I end up CPing YS practically all the time
and have him stop beating me And I disagree with not CPing CF with YS.
Every falcon I fight bans FoD so I end up CPing YS practically all the time
I main sheik actually >_>
but i'll show you on the stage list where the high tier cg'd me.
Actually I did play drephen and every time he grabbed it was a futile attempt to stay alive longer
Dorsey
Banned via Warnings
Yeah--platforms are nice, I can move really fast on yoshis and falcon's super easy to gimp. FoD then YS for me too. Where else would you CP teczero?
Every falcon I fight bans FoD so I end up CPing YS practically all the time
Thats kinda a toss up.
I guess if I can't CP YS or FoD I'd go to Battlefield because its just such a good sheik stage.
I don't mind FD too much either so maybe FD.
Though IMO YS and FoD are the 2 best CP stages against falcon *shrugs*
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
When I played Skler I just ran directly at him with Nair, Fair, Bair and boost grabbed him into **** non-CG combos. I also matrixed through projectiles with awesome waveland action and did needles because sewing equipment makes you hardcore.
In tournament do the CG.
Also don't do anything I do. None of it works.
In tournament do the CG.
Also don't do anything I do. None of it works.
SonuvaBeach
Smash Lord
What possibly makes you prefer YS over BF? Just no room for them to DD --> ****?
The ledges on YS make edgeguarding a bit gayer and I am not sure I like dying from upthrow-->knee at earlier percents.
The ledges on YS make edgeguarding a bit gayer and I am not sure I like dying from upthrow-->knee at earlier percents.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
It's small and you're Sheik. And they rely on space.
The edges don't matter, you're going to gay them offstage or on the edge with Bair or Fair or whatever anyway, nobody edgeguards onstage with Sheik anymore but Drephen.
Dying from U-throw Knee 15% earlier is acceptable when you figure he has literally nowhere to go when you tech chase him or hit him or when he's doing anything.
The edges don't matter, you're going to gay them offstage or on the edge with Bair or Fair or whatever anyway, nobody edgeguards onstage with Sheik anymore but Drephen.
Dying from U-throw Knee 15% earlier is acceptable when you figure he has literally nowhere to go when you tech chase him or hit him or when he's doing anything.
SonuvaBeach
Smash Lord
Thanks KK, **** your quick.
I'll keep that in mind when training for pound! The hardest thing for me to get is those sexy needle cancel turnaround bairs that everyone does off stage to gay falcon and ganon when they go high. I lose all my momentum moving away when I do the turnaround.
So I stick to that drephen dsmash and m2k dj fair for dodges.
Do you often use the ncturnaround bairs besides off the edge? I have been reluctant to learn because I often don't see the situations where I should be using it. and since i registered for pound...I gotta learn.
I'll keep that in mind when training for pound! The hardest thing for me to get is those sexy needle cancel turnaround bairs that everyone does off stage to gay falcon and ganon when they go high. I lose all my momentum moving away when I do the turnaround.
So I stick to that drephen dsmash and m2k dj fair for dodges.
Do you often use the ncturnaround bairs besides off the edge? I have been reluctant to learn because I often don't see the situations where I should be using it. and since i registered for pound...I gotta learn.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Offstage Bair is my favourite.
It's really good too so I get to use it a lot.
Fair is also acceptable.
It's really good too so I get to use it a lot.
Fair is also acceptable.
Dorsey
Banned via Warnings
Imo, sheik dying from a knee or anything that YS, a small stage, facilitates is countered by sheik's similar abilities against CF on the map. I just really try to put the pressure on so he gets as little openings as possible and with some effort(switching up techs, spacing, luck, DI, etc...) he won't capitalize on them too often when he gets the chance. Mainly I just like yoshis because I feel most comfortable there as sheik. I'm fastest there, abuse the match-up better, it's easier to waveland there, and I have a higher consistency in being in a better position to gimp. It's also more fun me so it suits perfectly
BF is an awesome sheik map, but I don't like the ledges much... same with poke. I spend a lot of time off-stage and when I go off-stage on those maps it feels like more of a risk, including against falcon. Just my preference...I would prob. go FD after YS.
KK, tec0, etc.: I DI away from from every initial hit from falcon that may lead to a possible combo as a rule(then of course possibly switching up DI with following hits)... is this right for all scenarios?
BF is an awesome sheik map, but I don't like the ledges much... same with poke. I spend a lot of time off-stage and when I go off-stage on those maps it feels like more of a risk, including against falcon. Just my preference...I would prob. go FD after YS.
KK, tec0, etc.: I DI away from from every initial hit from falcon that may lead to a possible combo as a rule(then of course possibly switching up DI with following hits)... is this right for all scenarios?
DJRome
Smash Hero
i think di is time based so the proportion of di'ed trajectory on weaker hits such as sheik's fair and nair in comparison to cf's knee. that's why attacks with higher knockback don't really help you survive as well even with great di. but ys is so good for sheik v falcon. i had been avoiding it and even banning it before vs cf, but the space cf's get on other stages i've found far outweights any deaths you might get from the knee.
i gotta think cruise is pretty good cause of the weirdness that sheik thrives on.
@dorsey, i like di'ing the nair's first hit up. that's pretty good for getting out. and otherwise, i di down and away.
i gotta think cruise is pretty good cause of the weirdness that sheik thrives on.
@dorsey, i like di'ing the nair's first hit up. that's pretty good for getting out. and otherwise, i di down and away.
pockyD
Smash Legend
i'm not sure what you mean by DI is time-based
and i think learning to DI vs falcon is one of the hardest things
and i think learning to DI vs falcon is one of the hardest things
DJRome
Smash Hero
sorry, to specify, my concept of di is that it primarily relies on smash di and asdi to help you survive because regular di is not very effective. thus, it only comes during hitlag. and thus the frames you have to di as a proportion of the total stunned trajectory are less for stronger hits. and the longer the hitstun, the farther you travel before you can reverse your momentum, which is really important on smaller stages such as ys. or that's my view of it
pockyD
Smash Legend
SDI has a minimal effect on overall launch/trajectory
you use SDI to get out of things like falcon's nair (i've been trying to do this consistently, but it's really hard and when you mess up you get punished HARD) and of course fox's uair... basically, to escape combos, most often from multihit moves but you can use it to attempt to escape juggles too if you're good enough (i'm certainly not)
if you're trying to survive a single hit without trying to tech it or anything, trying to maximize your SDI isn't really worth it since you're very likely to mess up your trajectory DI in doing so
you use SDI to get out of things like falcon's nair (i've been trying to do this consistently, but it's really hard and when you mess up you get punished HARD) and of course fox's uair... basically, to escape combos, most often from multihit moves but you can use it to attempt to escape juggles too if you're good enough (i'm certainly not)
if you're trying to survive a single hit without trying to tech it or anything, trying to maximize your SDI isn't really worth it since you're very likely to mess up your trajectory DI in doing so
DJRome
Smash Hero
? i just use cstick to sdi and control stick for regular di. you're in hitstun so it won't input an aerial
pockyD
Smash Legend
then you only get ASDI (which has a near minimal effect, even when compared just to SDI) and no SDI
DJRome
Smash Hero
uh, no. it reads inputs from the cstick as sdi. i just move it around a little
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
DJ- The first hit of falcon's nair has no knockback growth,(meaning it will do the same thing at both 0% and 999% / it doesn't make you go very far at all, just setting you up for the 2nd hit). DIing the first hit up will rarely be the reason you got out of a combo. Depending on how I'm hit and my %, I could DI away, up and away, or away then down from the 2nd hit of falcon's nair. Lower %'s it would be away/down in order to tech and avoid the knee.
And man, you can't SDI with the cstick. That's only ASDI.
Whoops, wrong account.
-Dorsey
And man, you can't SDI with the cstick. That's only ASDI.
Whoops, wrong account.
-Dorsey
DJRome
Smash Hero
well, then, i must have been wasting my time. fvck
edit:i thought the first hit just kept you there for the second hit. so if they try to set you up, if you can di away, the second one won't juggle you? idk, that was my idea of it
edit:i thought the first hit just kept you there for the second hit. so if they try to set you up, if you can di away, the second one won't juggle you? idk, that was my idea of it
pockyD
Smash Legend
if you DI the first hit such that the second hit doesn't hit you at all, that will often get you out of the combo since i think you'll be at frame advantage
Dorsey
Banned via Warnings
Well yeah if you avoid the second hit of it you will avoid the upcoming combo. Less than proper spacing on CF's part is the only way it would happen 'often' though, let alone happen at all. I was just saying that DIing the first hit usually holds less significance than the 2nd hit, by far.
DJRome
Smash Hero
do you think diing the second hit would help? i always assumed that once the second hit connected correctly, your di would be irrelevant. that's why i prioritized diing the first hit so much. i will test this vs mike come duke