Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[Luma]

amsah have you tried (from the edge) needleturnaround spaced bair? maybe that could surprise him, otherwise he will mostly trade with a fair (-> you are ****ed)
or
jump from the egde towards the stage then do a wd back, depending on his reaction

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

God! sheiks ftilt is the greatest move ever. IIRC it can even cancels out one of samus' fully charged blasts.
lordydennek once you get the downthrow if the peach has poor DI you should get a free upsmash at lower %'s. at higher percents or with good DI look for nairs or slaps. antipeach 101 ^.^

 

[DtJ Jungle]

peach is impossible

just conceed.

 

[GOD!]

all sheik mains drop her and pick up peach. Peach is unbeatable.

 

[Lordydennek]

Lies Lies!! She can be beat.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

no thats just an illusion.

 

[Nihonjin]

amsah have you tried (from the edge) needleturnaround spaced bair? maybe that could surprise him, otherwise he will mostly trade with a fair (-> you are ****ed)

No matter how much Peach looks like she's open, you'll miss. Bair, Fair, Nair, Uair, Dair, waveland ftilt, etc. Doesn't matter, you'll miss and get hit.

jump from the egde towards the stage then do a wd back, depending on his reaction

Won't I be stuck in the same situation then?

 

[-Jumpman-]

Won't I be stuck in the same situation then?

Invincibility frames + his action to react to.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

no seriously just concede the matchup

its ********.

 

[Teczer0]

I'm extremely interested in how Armada plays the match up in order for you to think its so bad Amash.

Guess I gotta play someone else in a lot of friendlies

 

[DtJ Jungle]

I wonder if it has more to do with it being Armada than Peach the character.

 

[Nihonjin]

Invincibility frames + his action to react to.

He's too far for you to abuse invincibility frames and his "action" has no lag, so not really sure how I'm supposed to punish it..

I wonder if it has more to do with it being Armada than Peach the character.

It's the character.

Yes, Armada's crazy good, and the only Peach in the world that does this stuff, but Peach allows him to do this ****.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

the funny thing is, in NTSC fox falco and marth can do the exact same thing.

 

[Teczer0]

Amash can you link me to your post on why you think the peach match up is the way you think it is?

Or just list it if you didn't already. I was away for a while so I'm way behind whats been going on.

 

[-Jumpman-]

He's too far for you to abuse invincibility frames and his "action" has no lag, so not really sure how I'm supposed to punish it..

I wouldn't even attempt punishing it, getting back on the stage should be your goal. Run past him after his fair or w/e? I dunno. As long as you're back on stage.

 

[Luma]

Won't I be stuck in the same situation then?

if he didnt do anything, rejump to anything, if he tried anything he should have missed which should you give you a better position overall (like: *** you i just played around with you bla bla bla mind****)

 

[Nihonjin]

the funny thing is, in NTSC fox falco and marth can do the exact same thing.

No, they can't. :embarrass

I wouldn't even attempt punishing it, getting back on the stage should be your goal. Run past him after his fair or w/e? I dunno. As long as you're back on stage.

Running past him after his lagless fair? FC nair to the face.

if he didnt do anything, rejump to anything, if he tried anything he should have missed which should you give you a better position overall (like: *** you i just played around with you bla bla bla mind****)

If it was that easy, I wouldn't be switching to Fox..

 

[CaptainEvilStomper9]

No matter what anyone says Amsah is not going to change his opinion, its going to take a sheik that beats Armada to change his mind. Until then (if it ever happens) hes just going to keep saying things like "If it was that easy I wouldn't be saying it was impossible" when you offer advice.

 

[Nihonjin]

Hes just going to keep saying things like "If it was that easy I wouldn't be saying it was impossible" when you offer advice.

I say that because all the advice I've gotten so far I already tried or thought about and it doesn't or won't work.

 

[-Jumpman-]

No, they can't. :embarrass



Running past him after his lagless fair? FC nair to the face.



If it was that easy, I wouldn't be switching to Fox..

Maybe I overestimated the amount of invincibility frames then.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

No matter what anyone says Amsah is not going to change his opinion, its going to take a sheik that beats Armada to change his mind. Until then (if it ever happens) hes just going to keep saying things like "If it was that easy I wouldn't be saying it was impossible" when you offer advice.

lol. He doesn't just say it is impossible. He refutes people's statements with what happens and how it won't work. No one has really responded to his statements with valid answers. It isn't exactly easy to punish a lagless peach that covers so many options

If sheik vs peach is unwinnable at high levels, then that is sad. Makes sheik even less viable in tourney play, which is the last thing all us sheik mains need.

 

[Nihonjin]

lol. He doesn't just say it is impossible. He refutes people's statements with what happens and how it won't work. No one has really responded to his statements with valid answers. It isn't exactly easy to punish a lagless peach that covers so many options

If sheik vs peach is unwinnable at high levels, then that is sad. Makes sheik even less viable in tourney play, which is the last thing all us sheik mains need.

Well, to be fair, Peach's at Armada's level aren't exactly common..

And I wouldn't say it makes Sheik less viable in tournaments, she just has a disgusting counter character, like pretty much every good character in the game does..

 

[Luma]

maybe i can find something at SVAR10 that might work if you actually have some skill (not an option for me since i suck xD)

 

[Nihonjin]

Amash can you link me to your post on why you think the peach match up is the way you think it is?

Or just list it if you didn't already. I was away for a while so I'm way behind whats been going on.

Defense:
- You can't shield her attacks / Turnip, FC fair to dsmash = ***** shield & sometimes shield stabs
- You can't spotdodge her attacks / Turnip, FC fair to something >> spotdodge
- You can't really roll either / Roll away Turnip hits you (sometimes a stitch face), roll towards her and she can grab, dsmash or dash attack you
- You can't crouch cancel / lol
- You can't out-prioritize her attacks / If you tilt too early, you get hit. If you tilt too late, you get hit. If you time it perfectly, you clash. (but usually you just get hit)
- You can't camp because she'll just corner you / Unless it's Dreamland, but then she's even harder to kill, so bad idea
- You can't recover

Offense:
- You can barely combo her
- You can't gimp her
- You can't Tech-chase her (because she doesn't tech 99.9% of the time)
- You can barely kill her
- You can't pressure her at low % / Because you'll either end up trading hits and she'll wind up on top (When she's floating it's even worse)

Counter:
- You can't dash dance (or shield) grab her 99.9% of the time / Her Aerials have no lag so can't be punished, her Dash attack stays out too long to dash dance grab and if it's spaced properly, you can't shield grab it because you'll get downtilted (waiting for the dtilt doesn't really work either)
- You can try a Nair out of shield after Aerials, but you'll get jabbed or dsmashed or whatever before you leave the ground, if by a miracle you do hit, she can CC and combo you before you land

Too lazy to think of anything else..but yeah, Peach is the Devil.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

It's still fairly important to note your talking about Armada, who is easily the best Peach there is. As you said, players, Peach and in general, are not normally of his caliber, and when you give someone of Armada's caliber a character that has aerials with almost zero lag and can cover so many options, it makes it almost impossible for sheik to do anything when Sheik's off the edge.

 

[Lordydennek]

Why then is sheik slated to win this matchup??? I definitely understand what he's saying about the turnips. It seems like after one is thrown and your left only with options of shield or roll its over, your going to take damage. If you just shield, a fair and a grab await you, if you roll you get the turnip and you cant go towards her. I hate that position.

 

[Nihonjin]

It's still fairly important to note your talking about Armada, who is easily the best Peach there is. As you said, players, Peach and in general, are not normally of his caliber, and when you give someone of Armada's caliber a character that has aerials with almost zero lag and can cover so many options, it makes it almost impossible for sheik to do anything when Sheik's off the edge.

I know. I never said it was easy.

Just saying that when if meet a Peach that can control her as well as Armada, she counters Sheik in every way imaginable.

Why then is sheik slated to win this matchup??

Because Armada's the first of his kind.

 

[Lordydennek]

Lets just pray that Armada is the first and last of his kind

 

[SonuvaBeach]

Well, to be fair, Peach's at Armada's level aren't exactly common..

And I wouldn't say it makes Sheik less viable in tournaments, she just has a disgusting counter character, like pretty much every good character in the game does..

Peach ... counters Sheik in every way imaginable.

M2k recently posted a list similar to yours on the sheik vs jiggs matchup and it was just as legit if not moreso. By legit - I mean that m2k and yourself are beyond the level where you haven't though through your options and you know how each and every option can and will be punished by mango/hbox/armada.

His post and yours are so similar, except replace d-smash with rest. Based off his list, jiggs is an even worse counter to sheik than peach at high levels. Which gives sheiks two counters at high levels of play. Less and less viable/rational.

Spacies still don't have a counter. Except really good players that don't main spacies.

 

[Lordydennek]

Well then its time that we take Sheik to the next level. I guess we can stop holding back like we've been doing. Super Sheik level 2.

 

[KirbyKaze]

To hell with you all and your sinking ship.

I'm going Jigglypuff.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Spacies still don't have a counter. Except really good players that don't main spacies.

Falco gets countered by Jiggs.

Fox has no counter but goes extremely even with Marth and Falco.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Even my ***.

Falco is good against Fox.

 

[DJRome]

dr. peepee! lol

jiggs is the only counterless. . . and thus top tier with fox. . .

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

i think ur mostly right but i think the following are a bit biased
Defense:
- You can't shield her attacks-true but your shield can take 1 dsmash if its close to full strength
- You can't really roll either / Roll away Turnip hits you (sometimes a stitch face) - only if she has a turnip at hand
- You can't out-prioritize her attacks / If you tilt too early, you get hit. If you tilt too late, you get hit. If you time it perfectly, you clash. thats theorycraft. Marth should beat sheik under those exact same principles, and we all know that sheik counters marth
- You can't recover - maybe only for armada but i still find this hard to believe, besides how many characters truly expect to live after being hit off the stage like 2?
Offense:
- You can barely combo her - no biggie we cant combo weegee and we still **** him, just take it in small bursts
- You can barely kill her - we have a lethal uair here too, i think killing peach is very possible

pal changes
* Down throw has a more horizontal send, making it impossible to chain grab or directly follow up if the opponent DIs away from Sheik.
* Uair is weakened significantly to 10% damage from 12%. This makes it a powerful juggling tool at even high percents (especially against fast fallers), but makes it a terrible KO move.
* The damage and knockback of the Up Smash tipper hit is slightly weaker, doing 16% damage instead of 17%.
- all of those nerfs blow against peaches, i think its a much different matchup in ntsc

however above all else tiers, matchups, etc. are still not as important as individual skill. I really do think the peach sheik matchup is 50-50. In that scenario the better player wins.

 

[Teczer0]

Defense:
- You can't shield her attacks / Turnip, FC fair to dsmash = ***** shield & sometimes shield stabs
- You can't spotdodge her attacks / Turnip, FC fair to something >> spotdodge
- You can't really roll either / Roll away Turnip hits you (sometimes a stitch face), roll towards her and she can grab, dsmash or dash attack you
- You can't crouch cancel / lol
- You can't out-prioritize her attacks / If you tilt too early, you get hit. If you tilt too late, you get hit. If you time it perfectly, you clash. (but usually you just get hit)
- You can't camp because she'll just corner you / Unless it's Dreamland, but then she's even harder to kill, so bad idea
- You can't recover

Offense:
- You can barely combo her
- You can't gimp her
- You can't Tech-chase her (because she doesn't tech 99.9% of the time)
- You can barely kill her
- You can't pressure her at low % / Because you'll either end up trading hits and she'll wind up on top (When she's floating it's even worse)

Counter:
- You can't dash dance (or shield) grab her 99.9% of the time / Her Aerials have no lag so can't be punished, her Dash attack stays out too long to dash dance grab and if it's spaced properly, you can't shield grab it because you'll get downtilted (waiting for the dtilt doesn't really work either)
- You can try a Nair out of shield after Aerials, but you'll get jabbed or dsmashed or whatever before you leave the ground, if by a miracle you do hit, she can CC and combo you before you land

Too lazy to think of anything else..but yeah, Peach is the Devil.

Hmm interesting.

I have a question though, why do you say you aren't able to CC peach?

Save for dsmash and fair I feel like you can CC anything into grab. In particular I CC dash attack and bair fairly often.

I feel like you can camp her though in theory I understand why you're saying its difficult to camp her. Though atm I haven't put a ton of thought into it .

And I feel like sheik's recovery is terrible so that last thing on the list is in every con list I make anyway .

Your offense list is pretty legit unfortunately. Sometimes it feels like playing a heavier jigglypuff >_>.

I also wanna say that this is the match up I love using d-tilt. Though its never a combo starter I often use it as a poke when peaches try to land while running away. I was wondering your thoughts on it since I've had a ton of success using it in this fashion against god knows how many characters.

EDIT: .. and I'm obviously speaking from the NTSC view point since I have 0 experience in PAL

 

[Mind Trick]

Amsah, practise your powershield to nair/grab and you got this in the bag xD
(... or pick yoshi and outspace with fsmash/upsmash ...)

 

[Luma]

since armada is doing **** nobody has seen before we just need to do the same with sheik (haha sounds so easy...)

 

[Spife]

psh
everyone should drop sheik for link
he can spam projectiles and doesn't afraid of everything.
Link's answer to armada's edge options: ledge hop spair (that's z-air, kids) and then EDGE CANCEL THAT ****! Let's see him have an answer for THAT!


in all seriousness though, can sheik swat turnups?

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Picking Yoshi is clearly the best option. Sheik sucks.