Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

you know how youtube is i was gonna say cj but that **** is mislabeled all the time
the reason i posted it was how many different ways cj used to get back on, i think thats all still aplicable

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

oops double post

 

[unknown522]

true, but Armada is much better than in those vids now.

 

[Nihonjin]

If you see them clearly trying to space on you or decide not to attack, then you can get on the stage to at least regain position. If they're commited to an attack, then you can go through them and shield / attack them with d-smash. You can even try to do a DJ from the ledge and land near the corner without an attack, if they're out of your range. You'll be out of their range as well since you're sheik (unless they're marth). Simple get up for the ledge when you're below 100% is effective (not spammable). You can try rolling when they are attacking (not recommended at all). Shortened WD? There has to be an opening at some point.

The thing is, you're acting from the assumption that I haven't tried all this already..

If I saw a vid, I could easily tell you what you could do in what situation.

I know my options.

It's not easy, but it's possible and there are a lot of options. Do different things based on where your opponent is positioned. Everything they do takes time as well. I would say as far as taking a hit may help you regain position, depending on what move it is. I'm sure you will find a way onto the stage.

Really? :embarrass

Edit: all these things I suggested are without getting into platform stages (I was thinking about FD only}. Anyways, if peach is holding the ledge, have you tried doing up-b onto a platform? Peach's jump is pretty slow. Maybe you could take a hit going the other way, DI it and possibly be close enough to recover again without doing up-b. Or when you get the ledge, simply DJing from the ledge onto a platform?

Tried that too, ended in disaster..

Can your opponent react to each one of those options without fail while not sacrificing ability to react to the others?

Sadly, yes.

Many things in smash require an amount of guessing

This is not one of those things.

if you're telling me that peach/marth/armada players has the ability to react to split second decisions accurately 100% of the time then I don't know what hope the rest of us who lack super human reaction speed have.

I have bad news for you..

I'm sorry if you've run through all these options and have come to the same conclusion

You think I'd come in here and say it's impossible to beat Peach just because I lost..? :embarrass

Not only did I try everything you said, I've thought about a billion different variations to come back on stage (actually, I can't think of anything new that's humanly possible) and I know exactly what Peach can/should (and what Armada will) do to punish them in a way that will make your eyes bleed.

but while I believe that yes getting back onto the stage is a chore, it's not impossible, and shouldn't be as easy to punish as I've understood you are trying to make it seem.

I never said it was easy. As a matter of fact, I don't think anyone except Armada can pull it off at the moment so you should be safe unless you play him. But that doesn't change the fact that I think Peach horribly counters Sheik (at high level play if you will).

Ideally, Armada (assuming it's his peach you're talking about) should be ready to punish all those options. But in reality, like knihT said, there is almost nobody who has the reaction time to punish each and every one of those options 100% of the time when they come up.

Bad news for you too. It's not purely reaction, it's knowing how to follow up if he misses (before Sheik can even move yet).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMj5dCTbQ9o
watch the end of the match, armada edgeguarded that sheik relentlessly but he was able to get back (even as zelda) and even beat armada

And half a year before that I beat Armada with Sheik and Marth.

Old video is old.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Peach is ******** when your offsteage.

 

[SPAWN]

I watched the most recent Amsah vs Armada vids (8months old at Epita). It didn't seem like he covered all options lol. Sometimes Amsah would get onto the stage just fine, but then Armada would just kinda float and wait there/just wait there and react.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkKK-Rn-XfU

2:09 was fine then Armada randomly sidedodges and Amsah reacts to it by jumping but reacted slow
3:12 roll on while Armada is spaced perfectly for a ton of options roll being an easy one to react to it seems
3:19 again just kinda floats around expecting you to wanna get out of there quick
3:39 jumping is so easy to react to lol

The end: dtilt to uair combos til like 130 I think Cort told me lol. It's so dumb.

Amsah: No disrespect but I think you can get back to the stage. You just have to not get ***** by waiting, which in smash, is probably the hardest thing in the world to do considering how panicky you get. All us American Sheiks will have to see how bad it is when we fight Armada at Pound lol.

Edit: Just read the new post from Amsah, ughz if you have that much trouble I can't even imagine how bad it is. I am really excited to play Armada at Pound now. I want to see him make me not able to get back onto the stage.

 

[Nihonjin]

I watched the most recent Amsah vs Armada vids (8months old at Epita). It didn't seem like he covered all options lol. Sometimes Amsah would get onto the stage just fine, but then Armada would just kinda float and wait there/just wait there and react.

Again, old vid is old. If you put me against Armada from 8 months ago, it wouldn't end well for him.

I'm talking about the Armada that I played today ago.

 

[SPAWN]

Ah, fair enough. I'll just have to wait and see then since there's no vids out now.

 

[unknown522]

The thing is, you're acting from the assumption that I haven't tried all this already..



I know my options.



Really? :embarrass



Tried that too, ended in disaster..



Sadly, yes.



This is not one of those things.



I have bad news for you..



You think I'd come in here and say it's impossible to beat Peach just because I lost..? :embarrass

Not only did I try everything you said, I've thought about a billion different variations to come back on stage (actually, I can't think of anything new that's humanly possible) and I know exactly what Peach can/should (and what Armada will) do to punish them in a way that will make your eyes bleed.



I never said it was easy. As a matter of fact, I don't think anyone except Armada can pull it off at the moment so you should be safe unless you play him. But that doesn't change the fact that I think Peach horribly counters Sheik (at high level play if you will).



Bad news for you too. It's not purely reaction, it's knowing how to follow up if he misses (before Sheik can even move yet).



And half a year before that I beat Armada with Sheik and Marth.

Old video is old.

trying to help again, and give you confidence. There's definitely ways onto the stage. He can't be everywhere at once.

 

[Nihonjin]

trying to help again, and give you confidence.

Oh I'm confident I can beat him, don't worry about that. But after housing him for 6 days, I'm 99.9% sure it won't be with Sheik.

There's definitely ways onto the stage. He can't be everywhere at once.

That's the problem, he can..


[edit]

Then again, in a couple of weeks from now I'll probably have forgotten how good he is, and end up playing Sheik anyway because of my (horrible) sense of pride..:embarrass

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

new topic anyone?
So is there any point to spamming fair etc. while flying off? does it having any momentum cancelling effects

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Wait, Nihonjin, who would you go to beat Armada?

*whips out notepad*

 

[DJMirror]

I never saw Nihonjin's Marth! i want to see it!

 

[Pi]

I'm scared now.
Armada sounds like the end game boss.
Even mango seems rather vincible compared to The Beast.



Side note. Have you tried beating him with Master Hand?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vvFD_UZ7Fc
Seems viable

Unless he pulls a stitch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIvypxdZuLE&feature=related

 

[Lordydennek]

Hello Sheik Boards.
I return to you now after at two day smashfest held in Southeast Missouri in my very own house.
We had a tourny, about 20 ppl entered, and your advice payed off!!! I took third! I got beat, however, by a very very very good peach.
During our first set(we played each other twice, once in the winners bracket and then again for the losers final) I beasted him in the first match. Then he figured out my needle/sheild pressure/dtilt into fair game. and then he ended up three stocking my bcuz i cant space my bairs against his CC dsmash...

well, we played lots of friendlies and I improved my spacing a bit, but he still wins pretty consistantly.
Basically i need lots of peach advice. I have the most trouble getting around the dsmash to grab or something. what do i do?

 

[soap]

Wait, Nihonjin, who would you go to beat Armada?

*whips out notepad*

im guessing fox

ive only ever seen his marth as an alternate back in the day

fox is kinda the obvious peach counter though. he was like built to hunt this woman

 

[Nihonjin]

I never saw Nihonjin's Marth! i want to see it!

I have matches against Armada with Marth, but I get *****..

Wait, Nihonjin, who would you go to beat Armada?

*whips out notepad*

im guessing fox

 

[KirbyKaze]

new topic anyone?
So is there any point to spamming fair etc. while flying off? does it having any momentum cancelling effects

No.

It just looks cool.

 

[Devil Ray]

I have matches against Armada with Marth, but I get *****..:laugh

well, how does armada do against marths? if you think marth gets ***** by peach too, then we'll never agree on anything

 

[Nihonjin]

well, how does armada do against marths? if you think marth gets ***** by peach too, then we'll never agree on anything

No, Marth doesn't get ***** by Peach. But basic Marth tactics don't work against him and I'm not good enough with him to get creative, so I lose.

 

[ETWIST51294]

I think Amsah can beat Armada in the America version.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Awww, Soap. Your avatar is soooo cute.

 

[Pi]

No, Marth doesn't get ***** by Peach. But basic Marth tactics don't work against him and I'm not good enough with him to get creative, so I lose.

This reminds me
Armada did beat M2K's marth
Nobody's got a marth even close to him in the states, that I've seen.
God I am so hyped for pound 4.

 

[KirbyKaze]

This reminds me
Armada did beat M2K's marth
Nobody's got a marth even close to him in the states, that I've seen.
God I am so hyped for pound 4.

I'm so hyped for your mom.

 

[Pi]

I'm so hyped for your mom.

*never comes back to sheik boards*

 

[KirbyKaze]

<3

I didn't mean it

 

[Lordydennek]

need peach help. standard tactics have lost thier sting. Peach has figured me out. need new ideas. help. there are drums in the deep. we cannot get out...we cannot get out...she is coming...

 

[KirbyKaze]

need peach help. standard tactics have lost thier sting. Peach has figured me out. need new ideas. help. there are drums in the deep. we cannot get out...we cannot get out...she is coming...

Amsah will say go anyone but Sheik.

It would, either way, be nice to know what she's doing; she's coming isn't really descriptive.

 

[Lordydennek]

lol sorry had to go with a LOTR quote there. Basically i was approaching her with either SH or FH needles into a dtilt and then ftilt to fair or whatever. but she figured out the CC and that her dtilt can combo into her dsmash. I can ALWAYS beat her in the air but i have trouble getting her there. she stopped using float so much and hugs the ground. how do i get her in the air. should i just spam more needles? her dash attack has more priority than God I believe.

 

[Pi]

<3

I didn't mean it

 

[KirbyKaze]

lol sorry had to go with a LOTR quote there. Basically i was approaching her with either SH or FH needles into a dtilt and then ftilt to fair or whatever. but she figured out the CC and that her dtilt can combo into her dsmash. I can ALWAYS beat her in the air but i have trouble getting her there. she stopped using float so much and hugs the ground. how do i get her in the air. should i just spam more needles? her dash attack has more priority than God I believe.

This is a band-aid, because it sounds like your ground game overall is underdeveloped, but my immediate solution would be: Why are you needling into tilts?

If they're giving you needle opportunities like that, I'd think that grab would be better anyway. Immune to CC, and if you know you're off you can just DD and wait for them to sidestep, D-smash, or shield because 70%+ of Peaches are idiots.

I would also say that you're correct that you should probably camp platforms and try to make her go airborne if you're consistently beating her there. Figuring out how to make them go into your strong zone is a part of this game, after all. Sheik also conveniently has a camp game comparable (better, in fact) to Peach.

For D-tilt and stuff if they're zoning with it, learn how to dash dance and space with your movement effectively.

I'm guessing Armada covers "everything" with his tech skill, movement, spacing, and float-cancel, which is why Amsah says Sheik is completely useless against a Peach that can do all that. However, I'm going to make a wild guess that your opponent can't do all that. So I think dash dance and learning how to space via movement will be a useful thing to work on.

 

[Lordydennek]

I see so needle then DD close and bait her dsmash and then go in with a grab. that works. I guess i need to be more careful and wait it out. He does play aggressive tho when i get campy. what do i do if he starts to corner me in close to an edge?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Needle --> grab can combo if you're close enough and hit the needle low enough. The idea is that when you mess up, you notice and then shield or run away.

If he starts being aggressive, when he reaches about halfway across the stage to you or so, either jump on the platform and get ready to throw needles when he comes after you, or run up to him and try to freak him out. Ideally you scare her into doing something and punish it.

 

[GOD!]

her dash attack has more priority than God I believe.

If I was fighting peach I'd just take out a gun and shoot her. Bullet would probably out-prioritize her hand.

Question: I read somewhere that sheiks ftilt can hit through falcons sh nair approach, is this correct?
I've also read that if falcon nairs you you should cc into a grab, but wouldn't the falcon just land on the other side of you and dash away, then grab you?

 

[Teczer0]

Question: I read somewhere that sheiks ftilt can hit through falcons sh nair approach, is this correct?
I've also read that if falcon nairs you you should cc into a grab, but wouldn't the falcon just land on the other side of you and dash away, then grab you?

Yes, sheik's ftilt does beat falcon's nair.

And if you CC the nair you can react to where he lands so it doesn't matter whether he chooses to land in front of you or behind you. You should probably be able to start your grab moments before falcon touches the ground.

I do it a ton of times against my matches against Scar and I'm sure Plank and Tope do it too. You should check it out.

 

[KirbyKaze]

He very well could. If you note he's done a cross-up, it's probably not a good idea to grab.

Mercifully, short hop cross-ups are hard to do effectively against Sheik as Falcon. She has so much priority in front of her. Trying to get behind her by going directly through her is often a rather brave ambition...

 

[elvenarrow3000]

lol sorry had to go with a LOTR quote there. Basically i was approaching her with either SH or FH needles into a dtilt and then ftilt to fair or whatever. but she figured out the CC and that her dtilt can combo into her dsmash. I can ALWAYS beat her in the air but i have trouble getting her there. she stopped using float so much and hugs the ground. how do i get her in the air. should i just spam more needles? her dash attack has more priority than God I believe.

So then... needle into grab. Can't crouch cancel that. From there, dthrow and let the rapeage begin!

Peach doesn't run very fast, so you should have time to prepare for the dash attack. And no, it really isn't that high priority.

It would, either way, be nice to know what she's doing; she's coming isn't really descriptive.

Aha, maybe you should start... CLEANING UP! Get it? Get it? It's in-nu-en-do. Very subtle.

Also, Nihonjin, you know what happened to Findor!

 

[Nihonjin]

Amsah will say go anyone but Sheik.

It would, either way, be nice to know what she's doing; she's coming isn't really descriptive.

Nah, I plan to use Sheik against Peaches in NTSC. Armada's not your average Peach.

 

[Lordydennek]

Aight thanks. Grabs it is. BTW Melee is the best game ever invented.

 

[soap]

Awww, Soap. Your avatar is soooo cute.

i know

blood pichu ftw