Milos
Smash Lord
cape lol!!
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Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]
- Thread starter Scar
- Start date
no cuz shine can save you from a rest ko
can a rest save you from a shine?
rest is only useful offensively, while shines can be defensive and offensive.
rest cannot be a proactive move, it can only be used to punish or finish a combo. In general, I think proactive moves are more important than reactive moves, so I value shine higher than rest, but the truth is that they're completely different beasts.
DippnDots
Feral Youth
surprised no one has said zelda's down b yet, that cow will never run dry
zelda's down b?
last time i checked jiggs' down b ***** that move.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jCZZE7h70U
last time i checked jiggs' down b ***** that move.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jCZZE7h70U
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Magus has proved at least 4 times that Shining before you die does nothing to save you from a KO off the side/ceiling. So your first two points are null. Unless, of course, you're referring to the notion of Shining out of a Rest combo / tech chase (I don't think you are) in which case I'd say "react faster, hit them out of the tech animation / before stun wears off".
The third has merit. Shine is indisputably more versatile. However, I tend to value the sheer power that Rest gives to a punishment game more highly than the Shine's overall utility.
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
does rest mean more to puff
or does shine mean more to fox
or does shine mean more to fox
_marth1_
Smash Lord
cant we just agree they are both better than all of falcon's moves
Lovage
Smash Hero
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
If that's the case then any Jab or weak move you can do while airborne would suffice for a team save and there are plenty of those on almost every character.
I think Ice Climbers dthrow is truly one of the best moves in the game. Especially on IC's, but it would make Falcon, Fox, Falco, Jiggs, and just about everyone else in the whole game better if they had it. It causes fastfallers to tech, and you can follow it up with just about anything because it has the shortest time between release and the first actionable frame of any throw in the game. 6 frames faster than Falcon's dthrow and 8 faster than Sheiks.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I think there are far better throws than IC's d-throw.
Sheik's, namely.
Sheik's, namely.
I think sheik would be able to cg people just as well with ics dthrow mainly because she would be able to act 8 frames sooner (for a middle-weight character) than she can with her own.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
If you could wavedash/jump out of Rest, it would be the best
but seeing as how you can't, its actually a bad idea to use somtimes when you're behind
rest can be punished even when its hits
shine can never be punished ever.
shine >rest
but seeing as how you can't, its actually a bad idea to use somtimes when you're behind
rest can be punished even when its hits
shine can never be punished ever.
shine >rest
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
@ TML
Shine is extremely enhanced by Fox's' fall speed, extremely good jump heights, possession of the fastest jump speed available in the game, ability to store dash momentum when he goes airborne, extremely good dash speed to make up for his average wavedash length, and an extremely good grab game.
Jigglypuff has few of the tools you'd actually want for using Rest effectively. She doesn't have a throw that auto-combos to launchers or regrabs on the bulk of the cast regardless of DI like Doctor Mario or Sheik, she doesn't have a set of spammable launch moves with low startup like Fox or Sheik or Falco, and she doesn't have the speed to chase knockdowns effectively like Falcon or Marth or Sheik. In fact, the only tools she has that actually buff her Rest unfairly are her amazing duck, her B-throw game as a whole, and that's about it.
Comparing which character gets more mileage out of Shine versus Rest isn't a fair comparison, IMO, since Fox is almost tailored to spam Shine and do it every other move when he's close whereas Rest, by nature, isn't as spammable and Jigglypuff doesn't have enough of the abusive tools built into her design that enhance Rest. Most glaringly, she's not really a combo character despite having the best combo finish in the game.
Shine is extremely enhanced by Fox's' fall speed, extremely good jump heights, possession of the fastest jump speed available in the game, ability to store dash momentum when he goes airborne, extremely good dash speed to make up for his average wavedash length, and an extremely good grab game.
Jigglypuff has few of the tools you'd actually want for using Rest effectively. She doesn't have a throw that auto-combos to launchers or regrabs on the bulk of the cast regardless of DI like Doctor Mario or Sheik, she doesn't have a set of spammable launch moves with low startup like Fox or Sheik or Falco, and she doesn't have the speed to chase knockdowns effectively like Falcon or Marth or Sheik. In fact, the only tools she has that actually buff her Rest unfairly are her amazing duck, her B-throw game as a whole, and that's about it.
Comparing which character gets more mileage out of Shine versus Rest isn't a fair comparison, IMO, since Fox is almost tailored to spam Shine and do it every other move when he's close whereas Rest, by nature, isn't as spammable and Jigglypuff doesn't have enough of the abusive tools built into her design that enhance Rest. Most glaringly, she's not really a combo character despite having the best combo finish in the game.
Tomacawk
Smash Master
huh? this is very very wrong...
cocaine cowboys use rest proactively
but yeah actual jiggs-playing *****es dont
rest is really ****in good though, unlike shine the mere threat of it actually takes away like 5 would-be options in most matchups, tall characters' grabs being the most notable i would say
but yeah actual jiggs-playing *****es dont
rest is really ****in good though, unlike shine the mere threat of it actually takes away like 5 would-be options in most matchups, tall characters' grabs being the most notable i would say
JPOBS
Smash Hero
meh, i stand by my statement
if shine hits, you can never punish. if it misses, you might by some miracle punish it but its heavily character/situation/read dependant
if rest hits, you can DI it off the side, coem back and punish, and depending on character she might die or just take som percent
if rest misses, vs most of the cast puff dies lol.
if shine hits, you can never punish. if it misses, you might by some miracle punish it but its heavily character/situation/read dependant
if rest hits, you can DI it off the side, coem back and punish, and depending on character she might die or just take som percent
if rest misses, vs most of the cast puff dies lol.
Tomacawk
Smash Master
Here are situations where the shine hits and the space animal can be punished.
-shield grab
-clank
-ledge/wall tech
-the fox player messes up or is too slow
-fox shines peach [any character that doesn't fall from shine] in the air barely above the ground and eats a dsmash because landing cancels peach's hitstun
Are you serious that you think a whiffed shine is never punished?? Last time I played JBM's marth I was grabbed EVERY time I missed a shine. Same with Mew2King.
Now let's look at what you can do after fox shines you to avoid any further damage.
-tech the shine
-sdi and make him wavedash past you or sdi out of punish range and the fox messes up
-if you're luigi or ice climbers, nearly anything. the only two shine combos on luigi are side b and dash attack.
-crouch cancel to make it harder and the fox screws up
-grab the ledge
Compare this to your options when a jigglypuff hits a rest:
-die off the side blast zone and get a one-three hit punish, possibly resulting in trading stocks
-survive
Although shines hit more often than rests do, a rest leaves you nearly helpless where a shine leads you to many possible outcomes. When you consider that [about] <3% of fox mains in the U.S. make <2 technical errors a set off a shine, I find it very difficult to make an argument for shine being unpunishable, and I also find it hard to believe that shine is better than rest.
I agree with basically everything KirbyKaze has said.
tl;dr-
_marth1_ said:
ETWIST51294
Smash Hero
Hey guys, I heard Falcon's a pretty cool character.
screw falcon
lets put it this way, shine can be canceled by a jump, and that jump can be canceled by a grab.
if you miss a shine youre usually safe because you can just wd out of it. you can kill people at 0 with a shine.
or you can kill people off the top of smaller stages with a shine.
rest, if your trying to hit someone and you miss, your screwed. especially if its ganon/doc/mario/fox/marth/roy/ and every other character depending on the percent.
you need to work to hit a rest. because if you miss, your screwed.
fox/falco would be nothing without shine.
jiggs does fine without rest.
shine is better, rest is cool but not better then shine.
/askfalconquestionsthreadwithshine>rest
lets put it this way, shine can be canceled by a jump, and that jump can be canceled by a grab.
if you miss a shine youre usually safe because you can just wd out of it. you can kill people at 0 with a shine.
or you can kill people off the top of smaller stages with a shine.
rest, if your trying to hit someone and you miss, your screwed. especially if its ganon/doc/mario/fox/marth/roy/ and every other character depending on the percent.
you need to work to hit a rest. because if you miss, your screwed.
fox/falco would be nothing without shine.
jiggs does fine without rest.
shine is better, rest is cool but not better then shine.
/askfalconquestionsthreadwithshine>rest
Roneblaster
Smash Hero
falcon sux
ETWIST51294
Smash Hero
Yes he does.
Roneblaster
Smash Hero
ETWIST51294
Smash Hero
Reneblade is so much better than everyone, it makes Isai shed a tear.
You just combined the properties of two different shines and slyly placed them right next to eachother to make it seem like the most amazing move in the world, when it is actually two different moves possessed by 2 different characters.
Its like I'm talking about how good marth's fsmash is and I say, "fsmash can kill falco at 0 tippered. and it's a great edgeguard because the electricity hitlag makes it really hard to tech."
JPOBS
Smash Hero
tomacawk i'll answer tomorrrw when im sober lol
until then gg andgoodnighte everyon e <3 falcon
*lol jk he sucks*
until then gg andgoodnighte everyon e <3 falcon
*lol jk he sucks*
ETWIST51294
Smash Hero
Your mom sucks.
yea i know but shine is still called shine no matter what
i said you can kill people with it at 0
OR (notice the capitals on OR because its supposed to be emphasized)
you can kill someone off the top with it
whether its falco's or foxes the move is the best in the game
you can do so much with the move regardless of which character you use
imo its not even close what move is better between rest or either shine
rest can only do 1 thing and you get ***** if you dont do it right, im not impressed.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
No she doesn't. All the high level Puffs need Rest at some point. And I do mean need Rest. It's an incredibly game-breaking move.
jetfour
Smash Journeyman
SuperMatt
Smash Champion
if i am falcon on the stage edge guarding another falcon and he tries to sweetspot up B to the edge...if i try to strong hit knee him from on the stage does knee hit low enough to always hit the other one even if he sweet spots? i think the answer is no but i want to ask still b/c its a pretty good option regardless
Magus420
Smash Master
Low enough? Easily. I know falcon punch and dash attack hit low enough to hit CF/Ganon, and even grab would probably reach too, lol. Their legs go way above the edge for a moment right before they grab on. You can up-b too low to even get the edge and still be hit by stuff above floor height. I don't know if it'd reach far enough horizontally if they space it or do it backwards though, and if it can reach you'd need to be right at the tip of the stage when they do.
by all the high level puffs
you mean mango and hbox
mango in the last few videos from like genesis barely rested
she does fine with just being able to gimp and hitting you over and over.
hbox is different tho all he does is rest but w/e he always wins by like 5 stocks so he really doesnt need it.
i really think she doesnt need rest. its really just intimidating, its like having samus with a fully charge shot but all the time lol.
the only time a jiggs might actually need it, like be totally necessary would be for a come back. but jiggs shouldnt loose cuz shes #1
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
If the two best Puffs in the whole wide world and the only Puffs with the potential to win a tournament at this point in time frequently use or even depend on the move to win sets and take home thousands of dollars consequently, I think Jigglypuff just might need the move to compete. In the same manner that Sheik needs to hit tech chases, throw combos, and gimps, in the same way that Fox needs to hit Shine combos and grab combos, just like how Marth needs to do stupid Marth chain grabs, Puff needs Rest.
Mango won the whole tournament because he hit a Rest on Armada's roll (which, to his credit, he read very clearly). Out of his last 5 games with Armada in Genesis, he hit a Rest in 4 of them. The almost comeback that Armada did in game 2.5 would also have been completely avoided if Mango didn't screw up his Rest when he called another Roll (he would have 3-stocked him). Hungrybox got 3rd at that tournament because he hit 3 Rests on Zhu in less than a minute.
To the idea that she does fine with hitting you over and over and not-Resting -- not really. She's still probably top tier without Rest but she's certainly not the best character if you remove it and I'd even argue that without it Marth and Sheik are certainly better.
Comparing Samus's fully charged beam to Rest is a terrible comparison.
falcon, with sweet but quite doable DI, can live from samus' fully charged charge shot at obscenely high %'s if hes on the ground on fd
i wanna say i've seen/done 250, but that seems so ridiculous that i'm gonna say maybe i was wrong and it was 150%, which is still ridiculously high for samus' fully charged beam to be not killing
i wanna say i've seen/done 250, but that seems so ridiculous that i'm gonna say maybe i was wrong and it was 150%, which is still ridiculously high for samus' fully charged beam to be not killing
Roneblaster
Smash Hero
KK you just made jona's point by saying that puff is still top-tier without rest.
homie
i bet if you ask them both if they need rest they would say probably not. she doesnt always need it. like i said it would only be completely necessary for a comeback. but jiggs' air mobility and ability to gimp, edgegaurd, and crouch grabs, and her smashes which are pretty freakin good just make her good. rest is just like a trump card just in case she really needs it.
and i said that jiggs' ability to rest is like samus having a fully charged charge shot. its intimidating. you never know when theyre gonna use it. thats not a terrible comparison at all. you probably just misread it.