Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]

[JPOBS]

sheiks out of sheild game would be outstanding is she could actually follow up the nair with something but her bad aerial mobility and naturally high jump heights make it almost impossible to chase after a nair. its only serves to clear falco off the sheild.

Its still good/better than most tho, probably one of the best anti-falco oos options

 

[Nocturnalist]

is it really a problem that i dont have a secondary? ive been playing falcon for so long and i dont feel like playing anyone else..

 

[Roneblaster]

define problem.

Is it gonna make it harder to win? Yes.

Does it make you awesome? Yes.

 

[BigD!!!]

i was playing bigr with sheik last friday and i kept nairing out of shield, but when he's at low % he can just get hit by it and then catch up to me before i land because sheiks short hop is so high, it was nuts

bigr absolutely ***** my falcon, my falcon days are dwindling unless i have some epiphany that revolutionizes my falcon and makes him way better

 

[Roneblaster]

we miss you already Big D

 

[DtJ Jungle]

It's 6.

The 4 frame jump means airborne on frame 4. You can do actions on that frame.

So it winds up being 6. Which is faster than grab, for what that's worth.

By virtue of having that crazy good jump startup she also has a stupid fast WD OoS, which is very useful.

Unless you're talking a whole bunch of multishines and shine-grabs, Sheik has some good ways out of her shield.

ah i see

i always forget that you can do actions on that 4th frame. I always just add it. thanks brah

 

[Scar]

all i know is S2j said to jsut bait an approach up air if they try to aerial and shield grab there dash. actually helped alottttt. Good thing to do i found, if your semi close to sheik not close enough to grab there kinda spamming ftilit roll backwards to create more space and some noob sheiks will try and dash almost all the time. shield grab that ish

i think i said that too

shiek sucks if she's aggressive, wtf can she do, dash attack rofl grab to ****, approach in the air rofl uair to ****

ya i did! except i think s2j's might be easier to understand

 

[KirbyKaze]

i was playing bigr with sheik last friday and i kept nairing out of shield, but when he's at low % he can just get hit by it and then catch up to me before i land because sheiks short hop is so high, it was nuts

It's only good when it knocks Falco over.

edit: But that's at like 35 or 40 or something so it's not a big deal at all

 

[Animal]

...i just got butt ***** lol, my bad scar i do remember reading that. Either or it definitely helps, but like i said i main fox so i dont give a ****kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

 

[Niko45]

Sheik's also got a b1tchin roll if all else is really failing.

I can't see any argument for shine > rest. Imagine if every time you got shined you died instead. Ow.

 

[Roneblaster]

how many shines in a match vs how many rests in a match.

i cant possibly see an argument for rest > shine, alllllllllll things considered. In terms of pure killing, sure rest is probably > Shine. But too bad theres too much more than kill moves in this game.

 

[Niko45]

how many shines in a match vs how many rests in a match.

i cant possibly see an argument for rest > shine, alllllllllll things considered. In terms of pure killing, sure rest is probably > Shine. But too bad theres too much more than kill moves in this game.

No there isn't. Killing moves are everything when they start killing immediately and no comboing moves are necessary for damage building (only to combo into the kill move in rest's case).

Shine is extremely dependent on the character and its moveset for effectiveness. Like if Yoshi or Peach had falco's shine that would be worthless. Every character some way or another could apply rest tho.

 

[Roneblaster]

again, you're only talking about killing moves. if you were constantly running around looking for rests, youd be that much easier to kill.

and lol rest on yoshi, because he has soooooooooooo many easy set-ups for a rest.

 

[PEEF!]

and lol rest on yoshi, because he has soooooooooooo many easy set-ups for a rest.

He does really. You wouldn't know because you don't play yoshi and havent played any good ones (Rob Gambino doesnt count), but think about it for a second. utilt, uair, usmash, uthrow, fair>techchase, and dair all would be reliable rest setups. Even dumb stuff like turn them into an egg>rest could work.

 

[KirbyKaze]

You don't really need a direct setup for it, though. You can hit them offstage with any decent knockback move and then just Rest them out of their recovery lag if they're one of like 18 characters. And conveniently 2 of the characters the strat doesn't work on are also the characters most susceptible to launch move --> Rest and big juggles.

And Yoshi's got at least like 7 launchers so I'm sure people would find a way. I mean, he can combo Dair --> D-smash at some point FFS and Fair --> Down+B at some percent.

 

[Roneblaster]

im sick of personal preference discussions. thats all ive been doing the past week.

shine is better i dont really care what anyone else has to say on the matter, including people who agree with me.

 

[Milos]

lol shine is like so much better haha

**** moveswapping

fox and falco have a shine jiggs has a rest

shine allows fox and falco to pressure an opponent, whether they're in their shield or not, and then if any move hits at all, it'll either be a shine or it'll link into a shine which starts a combo that any competent spacey main can turn into at least 30%

this can happen reliably a couple of times per stock and ultimately leads to more percent gain and kills then rest does at all

shine has much better utility with these characters hands down. rest is great and probably the second best move in the game hands down, but seriously, the properties of the character it's attached to dont favor it as much as fox and falco's aerials and falling speed assist the shine.

shine is better

rest is good

shine is WAY better.

 

[BigD!!!]

shine allows for all that stuff, but so do a bunch of other moves the spacies have

they can jab to grab, nair to grab, drill to grab/utilt, probably bair to both up smash and grab, uair to more uairs, utilt to grab/upsmash/uair/nair/anything, etc.

realistically, i dont know if fox would actually suffer that much without shine. i know iori has won a tournament using fox to beat xif in the grand finals and didnt shine once, the videos exist too but they might be hard to find

falco's combos seem to rely on shine a lot more than fox really does, but he also could probably do a lot of dair utilts as well to continue stuff

space animals would just have to think and mix up their shield pressure a little more, alternating between spot dodges, aerials to up tilts or jabs, spaced aerials, empty jump grabs, etc.

fox might have trouble edgeguarding other space animals though, he wouldnt really have an answer to them coming from below the stage except dsmash which gets teched too often

 

[Milos]

that's just because spacies are ridiculously built characters in general, and doesnt take away from the utility of the shine.

im definitely not saying spacies without shine < jiggs without rest im saying spacies > jiggs and shine is one of the reasons

it allows them to get all up in your grill without fear, not to mention it strengthens their approach greatly in a game where it often comes down to whoever approaches first usually gets ***** and nullifies that allowing them to choose when they want to camp and when they want to be aggressive.

i dont agree that people play in fear of rest, I think people play in fear of getting knocked off the ledge, or grabbed, basically being put into situations that could lead into a rest. however, none of these situations guarantee a rest at all

against fox and falco though, every time they land an aerial on your shield they're forced to stay in shield cause they'll get shined if they dont, and when they do spacies can just grab. this is 100% guaranteed if the spacie is good.

shine is ****ing ******** honestly, broke *** fricken move for rulls

 

[BEES]

fox could do the dair cpu edgeguard

 

[KirbyKaze]

lol shine is like so much better haha

**** moveswapping

fox and falco have a shine jiggs has a rest

Oh good I can ignore you because I already know that, given we evaluate the moves based on how well the characters they are attached to can use them, the Shine is minimally three times better than Rest.

 

[Milos]

word ok i was just making sure because i came into this thread and i saw people saying

"what if yoshi had rest"

ok rest is a better move maybe like overall but in this game, you know the game we play shine is absolutely way better

 

[Scar]

ok rest is a better move maybe like overall but in this game, you know the game we play shine is absolutely way better

sup milos

also i love wehn people make posts like this where they say that x is better overall but y is definitely better

like chibo sayin that melee was better competitive but brawl is more competitive

rest is busted, shine and rest are both OP so idk if it matters which is "better"

when rest is used properly (know when it works and only commit to it when it's 90-100%, or use it at low % 50/50 mixups) it basically breaks the game

 

[KirbyKaze]

@ Milos - I'm saying Rest is better in a vacuum.

I already said a long while ago that Shine's power in this game is inflated because it's on space animals, who have the best tools for linking one-frame moves because of their Dairs and other crap, whereas Puff's only really stupid tools with Rest are her B-throw and her duck, but her combo game is trash despite having the best combo finisher in the game. Her jump is also slow, despite having arguably the best move out of shield.

 

[BEES]

Reminder: almost every character in the game would be better off with the rest than the shine, if they could have either, and that includes the spacies and jiggs. Falcon and Ganondorf are the only examples I can think of that could potentially benefit more from the shine, because their approaches are so lacking, and their finishers are nearly as good. This could be why it appears at the moment only Falcon players think the shine is better.

Overall, rest is a superior move. Most characters could use OHKO move more than they could use an approach/pressure/reflector move, and only in the particular case where a character has absolutely nothing going for their approach and relatively early finishers that they can combo into (Falcon and Ganon) would a shine suit them better.

 

[Divinokage]

Hypothetical talk ftl, it just never ends.. and you can keep talking about it endlessly. I don't understand the point of talking about something that will never happen or has nothing to do with growth of a character or growth as a person.

 

[KirbyKaze]

We're bored.

 

[BEES]

Never is a long time. Melee discs don't last forever you know. Eventually someone has to burn new copies.

And that someone... just might replace the shine with a rest.

 

[KirbyKaze]

As soon as someone cracks moveswap more deeply someone's going to try cracked Melee with stupid ****.

This is still largely generated by boredom for me.

 

[Divinokage]

We're bored.

well if you joined smashboards a year later than me and have 3k more posts than me, then you must be bored the majority of your days, everyday. lol.

 

[BEES]

I think it's close to done at this point though. Evaluating the moves in a vacuum: rest is better. Evaluating them in the context of their character: 'How much worse would the character be without this move?' Rest is better.

Fox and Falco without their shines would still be better characters than Jiggs without her rest. In fact, if we took away the best move of every character in the game, and burned a Melee disc:

Fox and Falco: shine
Shiek/Marth/Falcon: fair
Jiggs: rest
ICs: grab
Doc/Mario/Luigi: wavedash :D

and on down the list, everyone loses their best move, I think you'd find that the tier list would look much the same as it does now.

The discussion won't take forever. It's not done, but one side is a lot stronger at this point.

 

[KirbyKaze]

@ Kage - this seems to surprise you.

 

[Milos]

hey scar

what im saying is

if you're speaking hypothetically then rest is a better move, if you gave a rest to most characters they'd become a lot better than if you gave them a shine

but in the game that is played at tournaments, hypothetical bull**** aside, shine is a much better move

im just agreeing with kk i guess

it was just strange to come in here and see people talking theory smash about pretty much every character except for falcon

in melee, shine is better

without a character to attach these moves to, if you examine the moves themselves, rest is absolutely better, as it has the same startup time as the shine and pays off way more

 

[Divinokage]

@ Kage - this seems to surprise you.

I don't know what is your heart telling you right now?

My friend told me mostly everyone are disconnected from their hearts. To me, everyone already knows what they need to do in this life but they don't listen and do the complete opposite. For example, if I want to become the warrior of my dreams (That is my heart) then I should train everyday and become physically strong at the very least. That would be the 1st step, but instead I play video games or do other stuff.. lol. How about you?

 

[BigD!!!]

Falcon and Ganondorf are the only examples I can think of that could potentially benefit more from the shine

i disagree with this, ganon generally wants to be too far away for a shine to hit anyway and his jab is pretty similar anyway

and falcon with rest, my god would that be broken. forward b rest, stomp rest, dthrow tech chase rest, probably even nair/uair rest

the space animals dont have a reason not to use shine, but i really think they could get by without it reasonably well

 

[BigD!!!]

I don't know what is your heart telling you right now?

My friend told me mostly everyone are disconnected from their hearts. To me, everyone already knows what they need to do in this life but they don't listen and do the complete opposite. For example, if I want to become the warrior of my dreams (That is my heart) then I should train everyday and become physically strong at the very least. That would be the 1st step, but instead I play video games or do other stuff.. lol. How about you?

double posting to emphasize that this post amused the hell out of me

 

[Divinokage]

double posting to emphasize that this post amused the hell out of me

lol why's that?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't know what is your heart telling you right now?

My friend told me mostly everyone are disconnected from their hearts. To me, everyone already knows what they need to do in this life but they don't listen and do the complete opposite. For example, if I want to become the warrior of my dreams (That is my heart) then I should train everyday and become physically strong at the very least. That would be the 1st step, but instead I play video games or do other stuff.. lol. How about you?

I don't listen to my heart nowadays except when I'm around boys. But that gets confusing really quickly a lot so even then I often ignore it.

My ambition is to be the best Sheik in NTSC. I dunno how realistic that is, or reasonable, or if it's a "heart goal" or whatever, but it's something to do and I'm working on it. This is impeded somewhat by not really knowing how to go about doing it except for thinking about the game and playing a lot. The former is easy. The latter was supposed to be dealt with 2 hours ago, but people are late. As usual. Meh.

 

[Divinokage]

I don't listen to my heart nowadays except when I'm around boys. But that gets confusing really quickly a lot so even then I often ignore it.

My ambition is to be the best Sheik in NTSC. I dunno how realistic that is, or reasonable, or if it's a "heart goal" or whatever, but it's something to do and I'm working on it. This is impeded somewhat by not really knowing how to go about doing it except for thinking about the game and playing a lot. The former is easy. The latter was supposed to be dealt with 2 hours ago, but people are late. As usual. Meh.

Of course it's a reasonable goal.. whatever you set yourself to then do it with everything you've got. To become the best you have to surpass the best! It's like if someone wants to copy every move of what the current best is then he'll never be able to beat him because the current best knows everything about what his weaknesses are and the strength of every move. So.. you have to come with truths that will enable you to become untouchable. It's one thing to be an expert and a complete other level to become a master. The master practices everything... and I mean that. lol.

 

[Mogwai]

new thread title is ****