Sakurai does not want Smash to be a competitive franchise

[BudaBoy]

I don't see the anti-competitive intent of Sak in Brawl. There's all this crap about random factor's that make the game luck. That's like tripping and what else? A trip probably changes the outcome of 1 in every 200 games. It's dumb but it's not that big of a deal. Yes, it's harder to be consistent in Brawl but not because of uncontrollable factors. It's a matter of focus, and I think that's a good thing. I feel like every little choice you make, like a spot dodge or a centimeter of spacing, is so much more important in competitive brawl. Melee required good decision making but some of the AT's allowed you to ignore basic principles of the physics at times. I miss wave dashing as much as the next guy, but I'm very happy where brawl ended up. I don't think Sak is trying to kill competitive smash.

 

[metaXzero]

Tripping, AT removal, simplified gameplay, HIM STATING HE DISLIKES COMPETITION!

What do you want...

 

[cjrocker]

I still don't get what this topic is trying to prove. I mean, back when Gimpy first made it there was more point to it but now it's just a melee/brawl thread in disguise.

 

[LOL_Master]

it should cover everything

 

[MarKO X]

I still don't get what this topic is trying to prove. I mean, back when Gimpy first made it there was more point to it but now it's just a melee/brawl thread in disguise.

Spoiler

shhhhhhHH! don't tell the mods!

interesting... did u know that advanced posting has a spell checker?

 

[Fenrir]

 

[GofG]

People post for hundreds of tournaments on this site. Please don't doubt my skills I'm good and I don't have to prove it to you. If you don't care about my experiences then why should I care about yours? The reason I said I met alot of people is because you used the word community. I live on a college campus and slowly me and my friends are forming a smash bros community. I never said Brawl was perfect but as for Melee just look at this

I'm sorry, I know this post is a bit old but I figured I had to say it.

There are very few good players at unc greensboro (assuming I don't have my colleges mixed up; Malk goes to UNCG, right?). While the NC Smash Scene IS big enough for you to possibly have enough experience to talk about what you are talking about, I don't THINK I saw anyone at Jubilee or Pembrooke that I didn't recognize (i.e. you). Or Chris Mullin's house, but that was different.

Also don't speak like you are part of the community that is making the NC Smash Scene happen.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Ok, RDK, I have to respond to you. Why exactly does that 1/10 make Brawl a terrible competitive game again? That's a matter of standards, not facts.

If Brawl had a 50% chance for the better person to win, but the player base was willing to tolerate a 40% chance, then everything would still be squared away. Obviously (if Brawl attendance rates are to be believed, and well, who believes numbers?), a LOT of people are perfectly willing and content to tolerate a 1/10 chance for the better player to lose (which is still probably an inflated ratio). No harm, no foul; if the community wants to make it into some big problem, then they should get better standards and play games that reflect those better standards.

Not to mention, who gives a rat's a** that Brawl doesn't share mechanics (whatever they may be) with any other fighting game? It's not like Smash in general is very generic a fighter. In fact, I'd almost say that if Brawl shared any of those mechincs, it would only share to make it more generic. After all, in all of my years of playing Melee, I can easily say that the people who liked it best (that I talked to, let me qualify) were the people who saw the most parallels between Melee and, say, GG. The more they found Melee to be like every other fighter out there, the more they loved it.

So, IMO, to belittle all the people who like Brawl for being different by saying that those very differences make it automatically inferior (as opposed to just 'different') is wrong, as far as I'm concerned. I may not agree with ALL the changes made, but I'm not going to go out of my way to make it seem like Brawl is teh wurst g@me EVAR!!1!1 just because it's not like everything else out on the market.

 

[LOL_Master]

you have a point to an extent jack

 

[Mardyke]

Clearly, your friends are scrubs and you are not. You can either play easy against them and be bored, or thrash them and drive them away.

That defeats the purpose of having friends, though. You play with them to have fun. If you want to have fun with them, then there shouldn't be a problem if you make it easy for them so they have a chance to learn how to play.

Tripping, AT removal, simplified gameplay, HIM STATING HE DISLIKES COMPETITION!

What do you want...

It still feels pretty competitive to me. I can say that not by playing the actual game (which I do, don't question that please) but by just seeing the amount of effort and analysis put into the game for a competitive atmosphere thus far. From the people who go as far to check if Mario can cape Pikachu's thunder, from the people who test out where each character would belong in a tier, from the constant stream of youtube videos of people brawling with a competitive spirit, win or lose, etc. If it's the community that made Melee competitive, then they're doing one heck of a job with Brawl.

Oh wait, all that anyone's going to say in response to that is "But Mardyke, Brawl can't have a competitive and FUN spirit! It's got tripping and they left out the wavedashing!".

I still don't get what this topic is trying to prove. I mean, back when Gimpy first made it there was more point to it but now it's just a melee/brawl thread in disguise.

I think it's still on the question of whether or not Sakurai was right to make Brawl a brawl and not the pro-exclusive Super Smash Bros. Melee 2 that had been desired. I'm personally happy that Brawl is more like its own game in the Super Smash Bros. series; there is no denying the massive amount of work that went into the game, be it the design, balance, soundtrack, single player (though Melee had a better Classic mode to be honest ) and more. It'll never replace Melee's own style, and it was never meant to. In that sense, Brawl is a true and proper sequel.

Personally I think Jack put it best when he said it this way:

people blow how 'anti-competitive' Brawl is WAY out of proportion. Tripping does NOT make every game a coin-toss. DDD's chain-grab does not annihilate tournaments. IDJR does not break every aspect of the game. The best player 9/10 times will win. As far as most people are concerned, that's not even a requirment for competition (as far as most people are concerned, the only requirement is that two people want to compete), so anything past that is just speculation.

 

[RDK]

Ok, RDK, I have to respond to you. Why exactly does that 1/10 make Brawl a terrible competitive game again? That's a matter of standards, not facts.

If Brawl had a 50% chance for the better person to win, but the player base was willing to tolerate a 40% chance, then everything would still be squared away. Obviously (if Brawl attendance rates are to be believed, and well, who believes numbers?), a LOT of people are perfectly willing and content to tolerate a 1/10 chance for the better player to lose (which is still probably an inflated ratio). No harm, no foul; if the community wants to make it into some big problem, then they should get better standards and play games that reflect those better standards.

Not to mention, who gives a rat's a** that Brawl doesn't share mechanics (whatever they may be) with any other fighting game? It's not like Smash in general is very generic a fighter. In fact, I'd almost say that if Brawl shared any of those mechincs, it would only share to make it more generic. After all, in all of my years of playing Melee, I can easily say that the people who liked it best (that I talked to, let me qualify) were the people who saw the most parallels between Melee and, say, GG. The more they found Melee to be like every other fighter out there, the more they loved it.

So, IMO, to belittle all the people who like Brawl for being different by saying that those very differences make it automatically inferior (as opposed to just 'different') is wrong, as far as I'm concerned. I may not agree with ALL the changes made, but I'm not going to go out of my way to make it seem like Brawl is teh wurst g@me EVAR!!1!1 just because it's not like everything else out on the market.

It's really not a matter of whether or not it's like every other fighting game out there; that's more about aesthetics and not about the core gameplay mechanics. Brawl could have been just as different as Melee (and maybe even wilder when compared to generic fighters) and still retained the basic standards for a truly competitive game. The thing is, it didn't.

And using tournament attendance to say that the community doesn't have the slightest problem with the deficiencies in Brawl is an enormous fallacy. DUH, people are going to go out and at least try the game in a competitive setting for a while before dismissing it. It just so happens that some people are slower in realizing it's not as good for competition as Melee. Most are just nubs that jumped on the Brawl bandwagon. A lot are people that entered the Melee scene too late and never bothered to discover what made Melee so good. Some tolerate Brawl's shortcomings because, for all intents and purposes, the community at large moved to Brawl, and they stay because of the community.

And your point about tripping accounting for only about 1/100 inconsistencies in whether or not the better player is wins is moot. The fact is there's still a discrepancy; that the chance is even there should be enough to turn off most competitive players. But at the core of it, it's a matter of opinion.

 

[Neon304]

It's really not a matter of whether or not it's like every other fighting game out there; that's more about aesthetics and not about the core gameplay mechanics. Brawl could have been just as different as Melee (and maybe even wilder when compared to generic fighters) and still retained the basic standards for a truly competitive game. The thing is, it didn't.

And using tournament attendance to say that the community doesn't have the slightest problem with the deficiencies in Brawl is an enormous fallacy. DUH, people are going to go out and at least try the game in a competitive setting for a while before dismissing it. It just so happens that some people are slower in realizing it's not as good for competition as Melee. Most are just nubs that jumped on the Brawl bandwagon. A lot are people that entered the Melee scene too late and never bothered to discover what made Melee so good. Some tolerate Brawl's shortcomings because, for all intents and purposes, the community at large moved to Brawl, and they stay because of the community.

And your point about tripping accounting for only about 1/100 inconsistencies in whether or not the better player is wins is moot. The fact is there's still a discrepancy; that the chance is even there should be enough to turn off most competitive players. But at the core of it, it's a matter of opinion.

Wow, you take every thing in an absolute or not at all way. Its either all or none for you isn't it? Either your with me or against me is how you seem to think. You might want to reread and rethink Jack Kieser's arguement.

Only the sith deal in absolute

 

[SmashBrother2008]

It's really not a matter of whether or not it's like every other fighting game out there; that's more about aesthetics and not about the core gameplay mechanics. Brawl could have been just as different as Melee (and maybe even wilder when compared to generic fighters) and still retained the basic standards for a truly competitive game. The thing is, it didn't.

And using tournament attendance to say that the community doesn't have the slightest problem with the deficiencies in Brawl is an enormous fallacy. DUH, people are going to go out and at least try the game in a competitive setting for a while before dismissing it. It just so happens that some people are slower in realizing it's not as good for competition as Melee. Most are just nubs that jumped on the Brawl bandwagon. A lot are people that entered the Melee scene too late and never bothered to discover what made Melee so good. Some tolerate Brawl's shortcomings because, for all intents and purposes, the community at large moved to Brawl, and they stay because of the community.

And your point about tripping accounting for only about 1/100 inconsistencies in whether or not the better player is wins is moot. The fact is there's still a discrepancy; that the chance is even there should be enough to turn off most competitive players. But at the core of it, it's a matter of opinion.

You're going to let a little tripping decide for you that the game is entirely crap? Wow. People like Jack are clearly having more fun than you...

Go play star craft if you want skill to shine. Brawl is practically a kids game.

 

[RDK]

Wow, you take every thing in an absolute or not at all way. Its either all or none for you isn't it? Either your with me or against me is how you seem to think. You might want to reread and rethink Jack Kieser's arguement.

Did I not just say at the end of my post that's it ultimately a matter of opinion? And that is based off of whether or not you're geared towards playing competitively or not. From a competitive standpoint, Brawl is inferior.

Only the sith deal in absolute

Sith > Jedi

You're going to let a little tripping decide for you that the game is entirely crap? Wow. People like Jack are clearly having more fun than you...

No, I never said tripping was the end-all be-all for me. Try to develop some critical reading skills.

And whether or not Kieser is "having more fun than me" is 100% subjective, and to think that I'm not having fun because I play competitively is just simply indicator of how ignorant you are.

Go play star craft if you want skill to shine. Brawl is practically a kids game.

Uh, I do play Starcraft. And Brawl being practically a kids' game is pretty much why it sucks for competition.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

RDK is right.

 

[LOL_Master]

i didn't know melee existed until 2006, i used to love 64smash, once i tried melee, i thought it sucked, and never played it cause i kept suiciding with falcon (too fast for me to even control at the time) and because he was the char i used in 64, although i was blind at the time, early 2007, slikvik came along (to rowan university) and joined my fraternity, of course we played but i was not very interested, until him and several others revealed to me how deep they know this game was, i was hooked more so because i realized what a big mistake i had made

it wasn't until after i played m2k for a few hours that i realized this game is the freakin best thing ever conceived, and i opened up my mind even as he was ****** me and did not john, but instead took it for what it was, witnessing a extremely skilled game in technical play/reaction time/strategy.

so now to my point, brawl

it isn't good. period. you think im stupid? of course i tried this shirty game, it does not come close to that of melee, i made the mistake of misjudging a game like melee, so i tried hard to not do the same with brawl...and you know what, it does blow, it isn't a good competitive game, it's a game i'd play while taking a crap

melee, hands down the only game that matters for gamecube/wii (loool)

 

[OmegaXXII]

^^if an elitist thinks RDK is right, the he's right! some people such as Kieser are so ignorant. *puts up flame shield*

 

[FalconPunch]

RDK is right.

OMG it's Buzz!!!! Where have you been dude?

 

[IWontGetOverTheDam]

HIM STATING HE DISLIKES COMPETITION!

Sakurai never said that. His statement was taken out of context. :D


What he actually said was that he doesn't like playing competitively, and that he is casual, but everyone should play how they feel most comfortably.

 

[Black Mantis]

I'm sorry, I know this post is a bit old but I figured I had to say it.

There are very few good players at unc greensboro (assuming I don't have my colleges mixed up; Malk goes to UNCG, right?). While the NC Smash Scene IS big enough for you to possibly have enough experience to talk about what you are talking about, I don't THINK I saw anyone at Jubilee or Pembrooke that I didn't recognize (i.e. you). Or Chris Mullin's house, but that was different.

Also don't speak like you are part of the community that is making the NC Smash Scene happen.

Ever heard of biweeklies by NC echo? Also, I don't go to UNCG. The only reason I said something about IGN is because they are hardcore. Unlike this site they don't discriminate against a video game unless it really sucks (bad games Superman 64 or ET). The discrimination for Brawl on this site is ********. At IGN they don't give a **** they play for fun and competitively. They even have their own Smash World where people can come together and share alot of stuff via wifi and even tournaments.

 

[MarKO X]

Ever heard of biweeklies by NC echo? Also, I don't go to UNCG. The only reason I said something about IGN is because they are hardcore. Unlike this site they don't discriminate against a video game unless it really sucks (bad games Superman 64 or ET). The discrimination for Brawl on this site is ********. At IGN they don't give a **** they play for fun and competitively. They even have their own Smash World where people can come together and share alot of stuff via wifi and even tournaments.

Uh oh... I'm getting a vision.... i see.... flames in ur future...

wanna know where the vision materalized? At IGN's Smash World... I just have this... you know... feeling... maybe I jynxed it.

But yeah, the difference between IGN and SWF is that IGN is for the world of games, while SWF is concentrated on Smash. One could argue that there'd be no competitive Smash without SWF (good or bad thing? you decide...), so SWF would be more likely to interpret Brawl for what it's worth on a competitive standpoint. I do think that the some of the people here take it to the extreme, but at the same time, dedication to something will do that to you.

 

[Black Mantis]

Uh oh... I'm getting a vision.... i see.... flames in ur future...

wanna know where the vision materalized? At IGN's Smash World... I just have this... you know... feeling... maybe I jynxed it.

But yeah, the difference between IGN and SWF is that IGN is for the world of games, while SWF is concentrated on Smash. One could argue that there'd be no competitive Smash without SWF (good or bad thing? you decide...), so SWF would be more likely to interpret Brawl for what it's worth on a competitive standpoint. I do think that the some of the people here take it to the extreme, but at the same time, dedication to something will do that to you.

The Smash World at IGN is dedicated to Smash and nothing else. They even have a GTA hood were its basically gta 4 all day!

 

[metaXzero]

Competitive Smash sir?

 

[MarKO X]

I just checked it out, and it's quite competitive. They got this Stage builder contest, with the current theme being the Legend of Zelda. lol

Actually, I just grazed the site outta curiousity. Nothing that looks remotely competitive though, so I don't know...

 

[Black Mantis]

I just checked it out, and it's quite competitive. They got this Stage builder contest, with the current theme being the Legend of Zelda. lol

Actually, I just grazed the site outta curiousity. Nothing that looks remotely competitive though, so I don't know...

Why would I lie to you about a site being competitive?

 

[MarKO X]

I didn't say you would. I actually went a little deeper, and it's not like there's a bunch of noobs on there (or so it seems, but who knows). They have a basic sense of what's what.

 

[LOL_Master]

There are at least one hundred thousands noobs on smashboards.

 

[Black Mantis]

I didn't say you would. I actually went a little deeper, and it's not like there's a bunch of noobs on there (or so it seems, but who knows). They have a basic sense of what's what.

Lol everybody is a noob online because of lag in terms of playing online. You don't know everything and neither do I but I guarantee that most of those people (maybe a select few) are above average players.

 

[Jack Kieser]

^^if an elitist thinks RDK is right, the he's right! some people such as Kieser are so ignorant. *puts up flame shield*

Woahwoahwoah... when did I become ignorant?! It's hard to be ignorant when you take up a stance of 'to each his own'. I've weighed all of the pros and cons of both games and concluded that Melee has more facets of what people define as 'competitive play', but that in no way means that Brawl:

A ) it is a worse game in every aspect.
B ) it is a less enjoyable game.
C ) it shouldn't be played competitively (at all).

All I'm saying is that RDK's '1 or 0' binary approach is not the best way to think about this. It's not either good or bad competitively. Melee may be better (which is still debatable because last time I checked, the community didn't even agree on what 'competition' entails), but that doesn't mean that people can't/won't like Brawl for what it is and can't/shouldn't play it competitively.

 

[Black Mantis]

At the end of the day I can kick *** in both games. However the beatdowns in Brawl are much more savage because of ROB!

 

[LOL_Master]

at the end of the day, i can always look at brawl and laugh because i can name Rob "WallE"

 

[Black Mantis]

at the end of the day, i can always look at brawl and laugh because i can name Rob "WallE"

You could have called him J5 a much cooler robot.

 

[Tujex]

I don't see why...if Brawl is so bad....why people are still playing it and complaining. No one's forcing them to play, so just put the Wiimotes down and play Melee to your hearts content and quit complaining.

The most annoying thing is when people complain about things like this. They have the choice to play it or not, yet they continue to play despite everything they say if wrong with the game. Smash isn't meant to be competitive. The creators have said over and over that its for the casual player, which means the competitive crybabies or out of luck with their soundless cries for a more complex game.

Either make the transition or backtrack to Melee...that's how I feel.

 

[Fletch]

I don't see why...if Brawl is so bad....why people are still playing it and complaining. No one's forcing them to play, so just put the Wiimotes down and play Melee to your hearts content and quit complaining.

The most annoying thing is when people complain about things like this. They have the choice to play it or not, yet they continue to play despite everything they say if wrong with the game. Smash isn't meant to be competitive. The creators have said over and over that its for the casual player, which means the competitive crybabies or out of luck with their soundless cries for a more complex game.

Either make the transition or backtrack to Melee...that's how I feel.

People are playing it begrudgingly because that's what everyone else is doing at the moment. Most of the best Brawl players really don't like the game at all (see M2K), but play it because that's what all the tournaments are hosting and that's where they are going to make money.

It's easy to say "just play Melee", but there just isn't the same amount of access to playing it as there are a lot of Brawl newbies that are flooding the boards and basically giving away their money at tournaments. People just complain about Brawl because while most competitive players do realize it's an inferior game, they haven't gone back to Melee really, and we just don't want the Melee community to die.

As far as for what Smash was meant to be, that is irrelevant; the game is what we make of it, and unfortunately, Brawl hasn't been made into much.

 

[Black Mantis]

People are playing it begrudgingly because that's what everyone else is doing at the moment. Most of the best Brawl players really don't like the game at all (see M2K), but play it because that's what all the tournaments are hosting and that's where they are going to make money.

It's easy to say "just play Melee", but there just isn't the same amount of access to playing it as there are a lot of Brawl newbies that are flooding the boards and basically giving away their money at tournaments. People just complain about Brawl because while most competitive players do realize it's an inferior game, they haven't gone back to Melee really, and we just don't want the Melee community to die.

As far as for what Smash was meant to be, that is irrelevant; the game is what we make of it, and unfortunately, Brawl hasn't been made into much.

Lol what you make of it? At the end of the day Nintendo has the ultimate say on what they put on their games and I don't think anybody on this site has that much power.

 

[Jack Kieser]

You could have called him J5 a much cooler robot.

Hahaha... I have a friend who is so into munching on Walt Disney's junk that if I even mention Johnny 5 around him, he gets all defensive about how WallE is so much better and how he is TOTALLY NOT a Johnny 5 rip-off.

I wish I were kidding.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Lol what you make of it? At the end of the day Nintendo has the ultimate say on what they put on their games and I don't think anybody on this site has that much power.

Nooo, that's definitely not what he was talking about.

 

[Black Mantis]

Nooo, that's definitely not what he was talking about.

I can't believe he said the Melee community would die. That deserves a massive lol. Like I said I don't think anyone on this site works for Nintendo so you can't complain about what they put in their games. Their primary concern is making money so lets do some math people.

Lets says Brawl makes 45 million in sales for one week. Casual gamers make up about 70% of the market while we hardcore gamers are like 30%. Where do you think most of the revenue came from? Like I said money talks more than being a hardcore gamer.

 

[thumbswayup]

lol Jack Kieser is anything but ignorant.

 

[metaXzero]

No1 said Nintendo has to target hardcore gamers specifically. It's that they TRIED TO ALIENATE HARDCORE GAMERS FOR NO REASON!

Most casuals don't know about tournaments, let alone deep game mechanics. Nintendo and Sakurai could've left those alone AND gotten the same range of revenue from Brawl.