Sakurai does not want Smash to be a competitive franchise

[LOL_Master]

It's smooth criminal. Muffsaid.

 

[Black Mantis]

Please somebody close this thread so we can end the whole stupid Melee vs. Brawl debate.

 

[MarKO X]

the only reason why I think Brawl is less technical (i say technical because any game can be competitive, it's whether the players choose to take it to that level) is because of Online. In 64 and melee where there was no online, so I think that Sakurai intended to put in the Z/L - cancel (for example of AT's) as a little "secret" for players who WANT to go deeper into the game, which they can find and use among FRIENDS, not random people online. You see if L-cancel, wavedashing, ect. were in brawl imagine online, casuals would play SSE love the game, play the extras love the game more, play with some friends from time to time, and appreciate the game even more then go online to test their skills only to lose 95% of the rounds because of some (insert broken melee character here). This in turn I think would put off a lot of the casuals, thus leading to a loss of sales. Nintendo does not rely apon the hardcore anymore, and is more into pleasing the casual gammer, because let's face it, there are a hell of a lot more casuals than harcore.

Nintendo cares about sales, they'll make a couple hardcore games just to keep us happy but are more focused toward the casual scene

When did Nintendo care about the Hardcore gamer? In what era was this? Nintendo never had hardcore games!

 

[LOL_Master]

people make it like that, it's the people yo

 

[Black Mantis]

Nintendo does care about the hardcore its just that at the end of the day their a business. Casuals are making more money for Nintendo than the hardcores now. I will always be hardcore and this casual crap is just temporary hopefully.

 

[.Marik]

When did Nintendo care about the Hardcore gamer? In what era was this? Nintendo never had hardcore games!

They have hardcore games that they made. For starters, LoZ and the Metroid series were considered to be hardcore. But yeah, they don't make games that appeal to the hardcore gamer anymore. But they still had games that were hardcore, so you can't really.... say that they NEVER had any hardcore games. XP

 

[LOL_Master]

i think you all would do the same...to an extent because making great sales is most likely your number 1 priority as a business

 

[thumbswayup]

OK, let me say, I can't really find anything I disagree with you about specifically. But I feel the need to keep discussing this.

The defensive issue really doesn't have any argument in it. It will always boil down to a simple difference of opinion. I'm of the opinion that it just puts a lot of emphasis on recognizing and capitalizing on opportunities.

What I think I'm still either not understanding, or just looking at differently than you are, is what exactly you mean when you say it takes more skill. I certainly agree that brawl takes far fewer skills, but I don't see how that really equates to less skill. The way I look at it, reading your opponent is paramount, which I don't think is something that can be practiced, and relies entirely on skill. There's no doubt that this is a very simple game, with not many built-in variables. Well I'm not sure how exactly to phrase the question I want to ask you, but I would love it if you would elaborate a bit on what you think make melee so much more skill intensive.

The skill gap between the best players and the players like me is far smaller in Brawl than in Melee. For instance, I have beaten Azen's Lucario in a friendly before. I also almost always get him down to one every match I play him that I lose (which is all but one haha). Anyways, M2k doesn't play Melee much anymore and he STILL three and four stocks me like it's nothing. And I play Melee every week! I'm not bad either, I get better everytime I play.

It takes much less time to get good at Brawl than Melee and that's where I think the level of skill is divided. In Melee, the button combinations and tech skill we all practiced to death was a prerequisite to be good. You had to learn your tech skill first and THEN utilize it in battle. I thought Melee was great fun back when I started finally getting the hang of wavedashing and L-canceling, but more recently my eyes have been opened to how deep this game is. Mastering those techniques is only the beginning. Once you do, a whole new level of this game is opened to you and that's comboing, which is something you can never really perfect. There's always a new variety on which moves you can use at which percents with different knockback to continue your combo. Zero to deaths are also crazy fun when you pull them. It is extremely difficult to combo in Melee. It's more than memorizing what percents to do certain moves, you have to perfectly read your opponents DI and know where they are going. That's something that Brawl can never offer, since you can just air dodge at anytime and that you'll always make it back to the stage if the knockback of the attack your hit with doesn't kill you.

With Brawl, all you have to do is learn the timing of the broken spot dodge and you're pretty much good. There are less options at any given second, so there's less to think about, therefore there is less skill involved. You really can only shield, roll, dodge, or jump. That's pretty sad.

 

[MarKO X]

They have hardcore games that they made. For starters, LoZ and the Metroid series were considered to be hardcore. But yeah, they don't make games that appeal to the hardcore gamer anymore. But they still had games that were hardcore, so you can't really.... say that they NEVER had any hardcore games. XP

I can't really say anything about Zelda games from my own experience, but from what I've heard, the only "hardcore" Zelda games are 1, 2, and OoT. Everything was easy... at least, that's what I've been told.

As far as Metroid, the only reason why it seemed hardcore is because in a [Nintendo] world of fireballs, mushrooms, and magic, Metroid used missiles and bombs. Metroid was never really a difficult game to play (save maybe Metroid 2 on GB, I never played it, so I don't know). Metroid and Super Metroid were long and had plenty of adventure in it, but there was hardly anything "hardcore" about it. I'm telling you, for that era, Nintendo had some of the easiest games in the bunch.

 

[Marios My Bro]

The mods should just past a thread rule saying dont compare brawl to melee in there coresponding home threads due to everybody knowing the outcome

 

[thumbswayup]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=184822

Just read the posts in this thread and you Brawl supporters might empathize with us more.

 

[Black Mantis]

i think you all would do the same...to an extent because making great sales is most likely your number 1 priority as a business

That's the purpose of a business. Make money by any means necessary and become a brand. I hate to sound materialistic but money talks more than being a hardcore gamer.

 

[CR4SH]

Fair enough.

I still like brawl better.

 

[LOL_Master]

exactly, so arguing about it is pointless, perhaps we smashboards should start our own business....

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

EDIT: Never mind, invalid point...lol

 

[LOL_Master]

loool, no seriously what did you type? i wanna see it haha

 

[Marios My Bro]

I dont get why he wouldnt want to this to be a competitive franchise due to this game many people liking and how many people play online

 

[thumbswayup]

I dont get why he wouldnt want to this to be a competitive franchise due to this game many people liking and how many people play online

Because he's a crazy tyrant who made Brawl to fit his own beliefs on competition (which is non-existant in his world) rather than the beliefs of the hardcore fans who took the smash series this far.

 

[Neon304]

I don't get the point in this topic. I like being a competitive player, but not at the price of losing my friends, and Sakurai is right about what he said. I play Brawl, because I enjoy playing it, not because I want to be the best, I mean, its just a game. Sure, I love the heat of battle, and playing a high level, very skilled player, and the thrill of beating one every now and then is great, but if you have a problem with Sakurai's quote, then play a different game, one that in fact was made to be competitive.

(on a side note, why the f*** did a mod make such a flame topic?)

 

[JackieRabbit5]

i still don't get how ppl can hate Sakurai...makes no sense to me

how can u hate someone for making a game? just don't play it if thats how u feel

 

[Black Mantis]

i still don't get how ppl can hate Sakurai...makes no sense to me

how can u hate someone for making a game? just don't play it if thats how u feel

Its easier to hate and nobody can accept things for their differences.

 

[OrlanduEX]

I don't get the point in this topic. I like being a competitive player, but not at the price of losing my friends, and Sakurai is right about what he said. I play Brawl, because I enjoy playing it, not because I want to be the best, I mean, its just a game. Sure, I love the heat of battle, and playing a high level, very skilled player, and the thrill of beating one every now and then is great, but if you have a problem with Sakurai's quote, then play a different game, one that in fact was made to be competitive.

(on a side note, why the f*** did a mod make such a flame topic?)

A bleeding heart, everyone wins philosophy like Sakurai's is not suitable for any fighting game. Smash Bros is a fighting game, however uncanny. There can only be one winner. If you lose, you lose. Period. The only game where you can feel good whether you win or lose is a totally random game like Mario Party or Rock Paper Scissors. So to design the game in such a way that the loser doesn't feel like he lost is counter-productive. And he failed at it anyway.

And If you would lose your friends because you played to win and beat them in a game, then your friends aren't very good friends.

And this was a meaningful topic. Gimpyfish was just exploring Sakurai's mentality about game design based on his own statements as well as the game itself.

 

[Puddin]

"There is a mechanism of accidents occurring, balanced so that the
game's progress and results falter easily"

Which means tripping is there to make us feel better about losing? I understand this article was from 2003 but I just thought that was funny.

 

[.Marik]

Okay, the simple truth is this...

Brawl and Melee are BOTH awesome. That's the simple truth of it.

Why he wouldn't make it competitive, is beyond me. But who cares about him. Brawl is still an amazing game. End of.

 

[Puddin]

Okay, the simple truth is this...

Brawl and Melee are BOTH awesome. That's the simple truth of it.

Why he wouldn't make it competitive, is beyond me. But who cares about him. Brawl is still an amazing game. End of.

And so begins the Brawl vs. Melee debate.

 

[LOL_Master]

perhaps he wanted to tbag

 

[MarKO X]

how to tell he didn't want Smash to be a competitve franchise...

There was once a -99 point bonus called "Cheap Shot." Such a scrubby bonus.

 

[RDK]

God Sakurai is a f@g.

 

[Jack Kieser]

A bleeding heart, everyone wins philosophy like Sakurai's is not suitable for any fighting game. Smash Bros is a fighting game, however uncanny. There can only be one winner. If you lose, you lose. Period. The only game where you can feel good whether you win or lose is a totally random game like Mario Party or Rock Paper Scissors. So to design the game in such a way that the loser doesn't feel like he lost is counter-productive. And he failed at it anyway.

And If you would lose your friends because you played to win and beat them in a game, then your friends aren't very good friends.

And this was a meaningful topic. Gimpyfish was just exploring Sakurai's mentality about game design based on his own statements as well as the game itself.

Sometimes it's not about losing friends, sometimes its about losing playing partners. I'll say this: I'm only decent at Smash. I didn't really excel at any of the three Smash games (mainly because I lack precision dexterity) in a sense of 'I do well at tournaments', but I do play the game well all considering. Apparently, I play the game well enough to drive people away from it.

My roomate refuses to play most times, with me or at all (unless I can get him drunk; I'm working on getting him plastered enough to MM me ). Most of my other friends who used to play don't play any more because they think it's 'futile' to do so, which is (again) my fault. I don't know how to pull punches, so even people who are just trying the game out never give it a chance because I'm the only other one playing (because everyone else won't), and I always beat them.

I'm sure that I am not unique in this aspect. From a player base standpoint, making the game feel as though it isn't futile to play is VERY important, and it's part of the reason why Smash is so successful. Most other fighters are so 'pure' that many gamers who aren't the most hardcore of the hardcore don't play them for fear that they're wasting their time in an endevor in which they aren't capable of having fun. The only reason Melee was that way as well was because we stripped everything 'unpure' out of it. So, what do you think the logical thing for Sak to do, considering a massive player base was, is, and always will be his top priority?

There's a reason you need Ocarina to turn off tripping, and guess what? We're that reason. So, no, I don't blame Sak for making the choices he did. A ) They weren't gamebreaking. Brawl is still an amazing game. B ) As important as we make ourselves out to be, we are nowhere near the majority here. Something had to give, and as far as priorities go, we were not at the top of the list. After all, this wasn't supposed to be a game for SWF, this was supposed to be a game for Nintendo/MGS/Sonic fans. C ) Even with all the supposed 'anti-competitive' stuff in Brawl, the best still win. I beat all of my friends consistantly in Melee, and I'm doing it in Brawl, just like I lost consisantly in high-level Melee play and I'm losing now in Brawl.

Seriously, we need to stop being so a$$hurt about this, because we have some self-important complext that is 'convincing' us that Sak had to absolutely HATE us or something stupid like that. Just go back to your Ocarina code hunt and stop b*tching about something you can't change. (That last part is directed to all the people b*tching; if you aren't b*tching, then it isn't aimed at you.)

 

[Lord Viper]

God Sakurai is a f@g.

If that's the case, why are you playing Kirby? -_-;

And further more, why is the thread keep being bumped up to the page. DX

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Single-button mode is Sakurai's favorite way to play. Nintendo shareholders were the ones who forced him to add other functions.

 

[RDK]

Sometimes it's not about losing friends, sometimes its about losing playing partners. I'll say this: I'm only decent at Smash. I didn't really excel at any of the three Smash games (mainly because I lack precision dexterity) in a sense of 'I do well at tournaments', but I do play the game well all considering. Apparently, I play the game well enough to drive people away from it.

My roomate refuses to play most times, with me or at all (unless I can get him drunk; I'm working on getting him plastered enough to MM me ). Most of my other friends who used to play don't play any more because they think it's 'futile' to do so, which is (again) my fault. I don't know how to pull punches, so even people who are just trying the game out never give it a chance because I'm the only other one playing (because everyone else won't), and I always beat them.

I'm sure that I am not unique in this aspect. From a player base standpoint, making the game feel as though it isn't futile to play is VERY important, and it's part of the reason why Smash is so successful. Most other fighters are so 'pure' that many gamers who aren't the most hardcore of the hardcore don't play them for fear that they're wasting their time in an endevor in which they aren't capable of having fun. The only reason Melee was that way as well was because we stripped everything 'unpure' out of it. So, what do you think the logical thing for Sak to do, considering a massive player base was, is, and always will be his top priority?

You're making a case that could be solved with simple common sense. The whole point of going to tournaments is to interact with other players who don't have that "futile to play" mentality. Of course your casual friends don't want to MM you--you're a competitive community player, for all intents and purposes. You don't play to screw around and have fun. You play to win.

If that's the case, why are you playing Kirby? -_-;

And further more, why is the thread keep being bumped up to the page. DX

Because Kirby's playing style suits me. I'm not going to stop playing Kirby just to spite Sakurai or something. What's the point of that?

If I was really that mad at him, I wouldn't play Brawl at all.

Single-button mode is Sakurai's favorite way to play. Nintendo shareholders were the ones who forced him to add other functions.

^ Don't forget Coin Mode. IMO, that was his idea of a "compromise" lol.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

^ Don't forget Coin Mode. IMO, that was his idea of a "compromise" lol.

ROFLCOPTER. If I were Sakurai, I would've made it so anytime you were not moving, your shield automatically went up. Scrubs FTW.

 

[Black Mantis]

Even though Sakurai did put in tripping which is very annonying I appreciate Brawl for what it is. This issue just goes back to Nintendo's new direction towards marketing the Wii towards everyone. This whole casual gamer crap is stupid to me but everyone on this site can admit that Nintendo is making a killing in sales.

At the end of the day if you were in business what would you rather have? A hardcore game that appeals only to a certain audience (Melee), or a game that still maintains the hardcore essence and can appeal to everyone because of the different styles of control (Brawl) (lest face it those **** casual gamers could never use a Gamecube controller if their life depended on it) ?

 

[Iron Thorn]

Even though Sakurai did put in tripping which is very annonying I appreciate Brawl for what it is. This issue just goes back to Nintendo's new direction towards marketing the Wii towards everyone. This whole casual gamer crap is stupid to me but everyone on this site can admit that Nintendo is making a killing in sales.

At the end of the day if you were in business what would you rather have? A hardcore game that appeals only to a certain audience (Melee), or a game that still maintains the hardcore essence and can appeal to everyone because of the different styles of control (Brawl) (lest face it those **** casual gamers could never use a Gamecube controller if their life depended on it) ?

Lies. I can use a wavebird with great proficiency, thank you very much.

Spoiler

And a WiiMote + Nunchuck, but that's just how I learned the game.

And someone is gonna fight you to the death on that "hardcore essence", I warn you.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Even though Sakurai did put in tripping which is very annonying I appreciate Brawl for what it is. This issue just goes back to Nintendo's new direction towards marketing the Wii towards everyone. This whole casual gamer crap is stupid to me but everyone on this site can admit that Nintendo is making a killing in sales.

At the end of the day if you were in business what would you rather have? A hardcore game that appeals only to a certain audience (Melee), or a game that still maintains the hardcore essence and can appeal to everyone because of the different styles of control (Brawl) (lest face it those **** casual gamers could never use a Gamecube controller if their life depended on it) ?

The problem is that he could've done a much better job of it. A game can be very silly/fun and still be extremely competitive in nature. If worst comes to worst, just make a "casual mode" and a "tournament mode" where the gravity is different, casual mode auto-cancels stuff, etc. lol

 

[SmashBrother2008]

I'm sure that Sakurai never hated any of you guys. He may even love you all, I mean YOU ARE PART OF HIS PAYCHECK, RIGHT? Unfortunately, if he ever saw these boards he would begin to hate us and intentionally make smash games that will piss competative players off.

*****ing is, by all means, no way of getting a game fixed.

 

[Black Mantis]

Lies. I can use a wavebird with great proficiency, thank you very much.

Spoiler

And a WiiMote + Nunchuck, but that's just how I learned the game.

And someone is gonna fight you to the death on that "hardcore essence", I warn you.

Trust me I've seen too many people using the wiimote and nunchuck combination.

 

[Jack Kieser]

You're making a case that could be solved with simple common sense. The whole point of going to tournaments is to interact with other players who don't have that "futile to play" mentality. Of course your casual friends don't want to MM you--you're a competitive community player, for all intents and purposes. You don't play to screw around and have fun. You play to win.

The problem with that statement is that we're all playing the same game, regardless of venue. (Minus items and certain stages, naturally) It's a design decision. It's not as easy as making a 'competitive mode'. I saw a photoshop one time of Smash Brawl: Competitive Edition; granted, it was a joke with only Fox, FD, and Landmasters on the cover, but the point I'm making is that people really do think that, in game design, it's as easy as just making it 'another mode'. Just make there a 'Melee mode', or a 'competitive mode'. It's not.

There is a LOT that goes into the design of a game, and Smash, as a game, is defined by the very details that so many of us are complaining about. Hit stun. Gravity. Speed. Each Smash game feels different and plays different because of these choices, and each game made Sak sit down and make individual decisions on each of these factors. That's what makes each game different from the others, regardless of whether or not they are in a series.

So, if we wanted a game with low hitstun, high gravity, and fast speed, we'd want a game different than what Sak wanted to make, and more importantly, a game that would make a lot of people feel like it was futile to play. Remember, I'm sure that my situation has happened to many more people than we think (especially with the explosion of gamer population lately), and Sak needed (and wanted) as few instances of this happening as possible. So, he designed a game that mitigated this risk as much as he could. To be honest, we're quite d*mn lucky that Brawl isn't Mario Party.

At least the best still win in Brawl.

 

[Black Mantis]

I'm sure that Sakurai never hated any of you guys. He may even love you all, I mean YOU ARE PART OF HIS PAYCHECK, RIGHT? Unfortunately, if he ever saw these boards he would begin to hate us and intentionally make smash games that will piss competative players off.

*****ing is, by all means, no way of getting a game fixed.

There is too much *****ing about Brawl vs. Melee on this site. If Sakurai did see this he would really be ashamed of American gamers. I don't think people in Japan made a big fuss about it (then again I could be wrong).