Rolls seem problematic in this game

[MM720]

The perfect thing to do IMO would be to make it so that if you rolled more than 3 times in a row without jumping, grabbing or doing an attack (any kind) you should lose all invulnerability from any further rolling (kinda like the new edge mechanics). I don't see any reason why this wouldn't be a good idea (right now. Feel free to convince me otherwise though)

 

[Daybreak]

SH's seem to help, but can vary depending on the character. I played someone who rolled the entire game, SH and FF helped me out quite a bit. Sometimes predictions aren't enough, although I'm planning to look more into it. Maybe giving some time to figure out their style during the match isn't such a bad idea. That way you could predict them better; in a sense that is the game alone. Even with the speed of the rolls it will get easier, everyone needs to adapt.

 

[Tagxy]

Response

I just checked melee to see what angle mario's bair knocked his opponent at high percent (105%). Color me surprised when I saw them fly 45 degrees :|

PM does have bigger recovery issues. Pikachu probably has the best recovery in smash 4 but in PM it might not even break top 5 even though its better. Aside from other stuff I mentioned, most characters offstage tools for fighting and gimping in PM are extremely poor. In contrast almost everyone has great tools for fighting offstage in smash 4. On top of that, once opponents make it back to the ledge in PM its pretty much free to get back on stage, which isnt the case in smash 4.

Anyways, this went too far from the initial point. Being offstage and on the ledge in smash 4 is pretty bad, hammering down to what degree and the specifics isnt that important.

And Im not sure what you want me to say about watching tournament videos, all you said was videos disagree with me so I responded in kind. Ive played every smash game competitively and played melee/PM more in over the last year than anything else.

 

[Shaya]

Ummmm why does shield come out in 2 frames???? That seems slightly problematic, especially when there are frame 1 moves........... Blocking is always supposed to be your fastest option.................. this concerns me greatly.

Why? No idea. It concerns me a lot too.
Every character has a starting animation before they shield before shielding comes up.
This means that crouching into shield stands you up directly in line of fire before the shield comes up. I can still get power shields from this strategy, but yeah, I can get hit from it.

Landing from aerials usually keeps you low to the ground in the animation, even when the IASA comes up, shielding being 2 frames means my character stands up directly into "line of fire" before he can shield. Kinda sucks.

 

[Judo777]

Why? No idea. It concerns me a lot too.
Every character has a starting animation before they shield before shielding comes up.
This means that crouching into shield stands you up directly in line of fire before the shield comes up. I can still get power shields from this strategy, but yeah, I can get hit from it.

Landing from aerials usually keeps you low to the ground in the animation, even when the IASA comes up, shielding being 2 frames means my character stands up directly into "line of fire" before he can shield. Kinda sucks.

Yea that is really dumb. Blocking is always the fastest option in basically every fighting game. And its because of the premise that being passive should be the most expedient option, that way you can't have onslaughts of unstoppable offense put out over and over (kind of like Marvel verse Capcom except blocking IS frame 1 but so is grabbing so relentless offense is more possible in that game, also assists).

 

[otter]

I think marvel has a healthy balance of relentless offense and passiveness.

 

[chipndip]

I think marvel has a healthy balance of relentless offense and passiveness.

This is objectively false, ESPECIALLY for UMvC3

There is literally almost no time in the game where a defensive maneuver to save your skin can't be bypassed by multiple possible offensive choices the opponent can just randomly slap together, and getting hit by a single one leads to one-touch-deaths all over the place. UMvC3...just...god no. When it comes to good game design, that game series is just a big "what not to do" post.

 

[otter]

This is objectively false, ESPECIALLY for UMvC3

There is literally almost no time in the game where a defensive maneuver to save your skin can't be bypassed by multiple possible offensive choices the opponent can just randomly slap together, and getting hit by a single one leads to one-touch-deaths all over the place. UMvC3...just...god no. When it comes to good game design, that game series is just a big "what not to do" post.

Morrigan and Dormammu are just as good as Wolverine and Magneto. Ive won several tournaments with keep away teams.

MvC2 as well. Runaway storm vs rush down magneto is endlessly fun.

 

[chipndip]

Morrigan and Dormammu are just as good as Wolverine and Magneto. Ive won several tournaments with keep away teams.

MvC2 as well. Runaway storm vs rush down magneto is endlessly fun.

That's sort of my point, though. Forcing defense through more offense isn't the definition of well defined defensive mechanics in a game because it's character exclusive. Actual defensive mechanics in that game are dwarfed by offensive ones.

 

[Doval]

Why? No idea. It concerns me a lot too.
Every character has a starting animation before they shield before shielding comes up.
This means that crouching into shield stands you up directly in line of fire before the shield comes up. I can still get power shields from this strategy, but yeah, I can get hit from it.

Landing from aerials usually keeps you low to the ground in the animation, even when the IASA comes up, shielding being 2 frames means my character stands up directly into "line of fire" before he can shield. Kinda sucks.

I've yet to get hit from this. I've tried Kirby, Jigglypuff and Game & Watch ducking under CPU Mega Man's buster shots and Crash Bombers, which fly fairly low. It's also not a projectile thing because I can crouch under Little Mac's punches and shield them as they pass overhead.

I've been recording videos so I've seen that the shield appears on frame 2, but are you absolutely certain that you're vulnerable on frame 1? If so, how did you test it? I can't find anything that would show vulnerability. I can't tell if I'm blocking on frame 1 or if I'm intangible and blocking on frame 2 but I'm definitely not getting hit.

 

[Shaya]

I'll double check later, but you can make sure by going into training mode, 1/4, waited/baited a CPU in attack to throw out something, then attempted to shield just before an attack hits, and skip into getting hit still. I'll do that myself sometime soon to make sure, but anyone else could do the same.

 

[otter]

Thanks a lot.

 

[Shaya]

Hmm, well short of having a second person to test with Mac's jab, I'm not certain anymore. Going by how animations look when you power shield something (in a situation where im trying to shield something the frame it should hit me), it looks like the "maximum shield reach" particle appears immediately, while the "shielding coming up" part (which we see from animations taking more than 1 frame) comes up slower/separately.

~~~

I thought of another way to test things while typing that out, that gave me the result I was indicating before.
Crouching into shield should be instant still (the stand up animation i see before shield comes up is consistent from a crouch or from standing).
So with a level 9 Lucina set to attack, I sat there crouching waiting for a fair to come up just above my head (they're really quite bad at aiming surprisingly), I timed it so I held shield, then frame skipped, and I got hit by the forward air. I've also done this with forward smash and have had it hit me too while standing up.

But even then, this is really hard to time/inconsistent.

I'm 95% certain shielding isn't a 1 frame action anymore. But some degree of paranoia is making me thinking it's possible it comes up BETWEEN 1 and 2 frames.

Either way, would like 1 other person to perhaps confirm my observations doing something similar (training mode, cpu set to attack, situations where you'll be hit 1 frame later and shielding doesn't save you), and then I'll be happy to state it as super-fact, rather than regular fact like I have been for 2 weeks already

 

[otter]

What has science done?

 

[popsofctown]

What has science done?

Created Shaya

 

[Jackson]

I agree with the OP. Rolls are a pain to deal with. They feel really difficult to punish.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

This is objectively false, ESPECIALLY for UMvC3

There is literally almost no time in the game where a defensive maneuver to save your skin can't be bypassed by multiple possible offensive choices the opponent can just randomly slap together, and getting hit by a single one leads to one-touch-deaths all over the place. UMvC3...just...god no. When it comes to good game design, that game series is just a big "what not to do" post.

Use advancing gaurd.

 

[otter]

or alpha counter

 

[Doval]

@ Shaya :

G&W crouch: http://i.minus.com/iEHgTqKELHecr.jpg
G&W shield frame 1: http://i.minus.com/ibm1WD10nlxJId.jpg
G&W shield frame 2: http://i.minus.com/iba8zWkqsu0oBV.jpg

As you can see, he goes from crouching to standing immediately. If he were vulnerable frame 1, it stands to reason that attacks that miss while crouching but hit while standing will hit him on frame 1 of shielding if he tried to shield as an attack passes overhead.

Frame 1 non-perfect shielding (hits on the right edge, can't release shield immediately):
Before hit: http://i.minus.com/iXoOQQmGEFBeC.jpg
After hit: http://i.minus.com/icH4IEHiUFCu2.jpg

Frame 1 perfect shielding (hits on the center, G&W dropped shield immediately):
Before hit: http://i.minus.com/iIGJ2TZ8V9TIq.jpg
After hit: http://i.minus.com/isiqF4IR6BARq.jpg

I crouch-shielded that punch over 20 times and never got hit. I'm not sure why you're getting hit but I'd suspect it's something screwy in the way the "Press L to frame skip" is implemented in training mode.

 

[Shaya]

Hmm, it could be possible that the length of time you can frame skip is shorter than 1 frame, hence there isn't a full frame available to get shield up in time... or they could be... *vomit* different shield animations for characters.

Also looks like you have an outline for your shield already up in this picture (or is it the affect of the punch?): http://i.minus.com/iIGJ2TZ8V9TIq.jpg

 

[Doval]

Hmm, it could be possible that the length of time you can frame skip is shorter than 1 frame, hence there isn't a full frame available to get shield up in time... or they could be... *vomit* different shield animations for characters.

Also looks like you have an outline for your shield already up in this picture (or is it the affect of the punch?): http://i.minus.com/iIGJ2TZ8V9TIq.jpg

I'm using a camera to record the movies, I don't have a capture card (and probably wouldn't mod my 3DS that way even if I was willing to spend the money.) I record at 60 FPS so I'm sure there's no missing frames, but I obviously can't synchronize the camera to the 3DS screen. Sometimes they're out of sync and you get some ghosting when it records a transition between frames. My camera's high speed recording mode imposes a limit on video length so I had to record two consecutive videos which is why there's ghosting on the last set of images but not the first two.

I used to think the faint shield outline on frame 1 was ghosting from frame 2, but seeing it on the last frame of crouching can only mean that it really is visible on frame 1.

I don't think different characters have different shield startups, or at least I haven't seen one yet. Like I said earlier, I can also crouch shield Little Mac's Straight Lunge with Kirby and Jigglipuff (Lv3 CPU seems to like that attack when you put it in Attack mode in Training). I've also been recording videos of Mega Man for frame data and he also follows the pattern of going into a standing pose with a faint shield on frame 1 followed by a solid shield on frame 2.

So I really don't know what to tell you other than it works in real time, at least with the characters I've tried.

 

[Shaya]

We need the Mac jab test

Someone out there must have access to a second person/3DS to dispel all fears. But otherwise, I would concede on the G&W/etc crouching into shield for Mac's punch being indicative.

 

[Doval]

We need the Mac jab test

Someone out there must have access to a second person/3DS to dispel all fears. But otherwise, I would concede on the G&W/etc crouching into shield for Mac's punch being indicative.

I do have access to a second 3DS, that's how I got that footage (waiting for the CPU to Straight Lunge is super annoying.) It'd have to wait until at least tonight but what exactly do you want me to test?

 

[Shaya]

Mac's jab is 1 frame start up. If you're able to ensure your pressing jab and shield at the same time, you'll know if shield is 1 frame or not.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Mac's jab is 1 frame start up. If you're able to ensure your pressing jab and shield at the same time, you'll know if shield is 1 frame or not.

Gotta wait for the Wii U GameCube version.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

I just checked melee to see what angle mario's bair knocked his opponent at high percent (105%). Color me surprised when I saw them fly 45 degrees :|

PM does have bigger recovery issues. Pikachu probably has the best recovery in smash 4 but in PM it might not even break top 5 even though its better. Aside from other stuff I mentioned, most characters offstage tools for fighting and gimping in PM are extremely poor. In contrast almost everyone has great tools for fighting offstage in smash 4. On top of that, once opponents make it back to the ledge in PM its pretty much free to get back on stage, which isnt the case in smash 4.

Anyways, this went too far from the initial point. Being offstage and on the ledge in smash 4 is pretty bad, hammering down to what degree and the specifics isnt that important.

And Im not sure what you want me to say about watching tournament videos, all you said was videos disagree with me so I responded in kind. Ive played every smash game competitively and played melee/PM more in over the last year than anything else.

Why are you colored surprised? Didn't you read my post?
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Spoiler

From earlier post...

Before I continue, it's important to discuss how we define hit angle. In Melee, technically, Mario's B-air launches foes at a near 45 degree angle. But by the time the foe can act, he is actually lower than the 45, so it's like he was actually hit lower. So when I say Mario's B-air doesn't hit at a 45-degree angle, what I mean is by the time the person can act they are actually lower than that. Compared to in Smash 4 ( and probably Brawl ) where if you get hit by Mario's B-air, by the time you can act you've been lauched at 45-degree angle ( or higher ) compared to your stating position.

I think hammering down on the specifics is super important because right now we are on completely opposite sides. How else am I supposed to believe your opinion if not through details and specifics? Especially when you keep on saying general statements that I think are false.

For example, you say the gimping tools in PM are poor. How? For who?
And you say everyone has good off-stage tools in Smash 4. Why? Like what?

I understand that meteors have been improved basically across the board. But then I look at Smash 4 Mario ( who has a much better F-air ) and look at the fact that his neutral-air and back-air's gimping utility has been greatly reduced. And it's as if he took one step forward and two steps back.

The reason I talked about hit angles is because it's not even that I believe everyone technically has super amazing recoveries. It's more along the lines that the game mechanics itself makes it so that it requires a lot less work to recover. People recover too high ( due to hit angles ) and hits are muted. So once again Imma use Mario as an example. Mario's PM recovery is technically better, he has Down-B and a better Cape. But in PM if you catch him during his recovery with say a Back-Air, then he's more or less dead. Now catch a Smash 4 Mario during his recovery and he has a much better chance of making it back to the stage regardless.

I honestly feel like this game might have the least amount of off-stage play yet because the reward isn't as high as in other games. Seems like a lot of the times someone is off-stage the opponent just sits at the ledge and waits for them to come back. Of course, I could have confirmation bias so I wish some 3rd party would look at this too.

 

[Doval]

@ Shaya



Incidentally I confirmed that the perfect shield window is still 4 frames.

 

[Tagxy]

Response.

Youd said the sakurai angle was more prevalent, I was correcting you. Personally I feel youre not presenting enough evidence or using it based on a misunderstanding, which makes me less invested in the discussion. Also the offstage game for smash 4 is clearly more significant than melee or PM, if you watch or play either of these games competitively you see that most edgeguard gameplay in these games occurs at or very near the ledge (though in PM this doesnt matter much).

I have melee right in front of me, the angles are virtually exactly the same and hitstun makes little difference. Your video is an example of bad DI (or rather combo DI, if I were him Id want to hold left two to escape getting hit too). And at higher percents particularly hitstun doesnt matter theyre going to fly at the larger angle. On top of that PM has similar hitstun to melee and recovering in PM is way more ridiculous so thats clearly not an issue. Edge gimps occur more often in melee for other reasons.

Also as a sidenote gimping mario in PM is much harder than smash 4. In PM if he saves his jump and DI's the right way hes going to survive, hitting him offstage in the first place is ridiculously hard except for perhaps a few broken characters which means he'll almost always make it to the ledge. In any case, this anecdotal evidence isnt helpful on either side.

 

[SuaveChaser]

rolls are silly man.

 

[Judo777]

Morrigan and Dormammu are just as good as Wolverine and Magneto. Ive won several tournaments with keep away teams.

MvC2 as well. Runaway storm vs rush down magneto is endlessly fun.

Idk if I would call Morrigan a defensive character, absurd pressure from full screen doesn't come off as very defensive lol

And dormammu requires alot of specific assists to allow his defensive play to not get exploded by most offense.

 

[popsofctown]

@ Shaya

View attachment 29291 View attachment 29292 View attachment 29293

Incidentally I confirmed that the perfect shield window is still 4 frames.

I wonder if it's longer for defense shulk, since the tips claim the defense stat affects PS windows.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

Youd said the sakurai angle was more prevalent, I was correcting you.

You didn't really correct me though - cuz I acknowledged that before you posted. And the way I defined launch-angle functionally makes more sense - considering it doesn't matter as much if you get hit at a 45-degree, but can only act when you are around 30 degrees from the original starting point ( at least for our disscussion ).

EDIT: And I think I said something about other moves too ( Fox Shine and Shiek Fair ).

Personally I feel youre not presenting enough evidence or using it based on a misunderstanding, which makes me less invested in the discussion.

How much evidence do you want? I'm only one dude with no video-recording equipment. Do you want 50 PM/Melee Bairs and 50 Smash 4 Bairs. And I gave you some evidence ( videos and deduction ) but you said "Your video is an example of bad DI (or rather combo DI, if I were him Id want to hold left two to escape getting hit too), " so I don't know if getting more examples is worth.

Edit: Cuz anything I show could be "rebuttaled" with this.

Also the offstage game for smash 4 is clearly more significant than melee or PM, if you watch or play either of these games competitively you see that most edgeguard gameplay in these games occurs at or very near the ledge (though in PM this doesnt matter much).

Clear to whom? Not me. Why is it more significant? Show me a video or a set or give me something more than this ( even could be deductions for yo' evidence).

I have melee right in front of me, the angles are virtually exactly the same and hitstun makes little difference. Your video is an example of bad DI (or rather combo DI, if I were him Id want to hold left two to escape getting hit too). And at higher percents particularly hitstun doesnt matter theyre going to fly at the larger angle.

I realize hitstun doesn't make them fly at a higher angles, I'm not that dumb. It's simple projectile motion brah. Consider two similar balls, launched at the same angle, and fly the exact same path. But Ball 1 ( aka Smash 4 ) is able to "act" at the apex of the trajectory rather than the other ball which is able to "act" somewhere below the apex, then it's easier for Ball 1 to recover. This example is a kinda bad simplification - but the point stands.

I'm actually glad you called me out on this though - because it might be with similar hit-stun instead, but different/heavier gravity that would also give the same effects as my ball example.

On top of that PM has similar hitstun to melee and recovering in PM is way more ridiculous so thats clearly not an issue. Edge gimps occur more often in melee for other reasons.

I think my brain farted so I might not respond properly. Could you rephrase or something. I agree that PM recoveries are too strong but I think they aren't as bad as Smash 4. I think you're just looking solely at the actual characters recoveries ( which is certainly important as seen in Melee vs. PM ) but I'm considering other factors that also determine how easy/hard it is to recover ( such as hit-stun, gravity, hit-angle, ledge-snapping, ledge mechanics, air-dodges, hit strength, etc ).

Also as a sidenote gimping mario in PM is much harder than smash 4. In PM if he saves his jump and DI's the right way hes going to survive, hitting him offstage in the first place is ridiculously hard except for perhaps a few broken characters which means he'll almost always make it to the ledge. In any case, this anecdotal evidence isnt helpful on either side.

Disagree - don't know how many times a Mario can simply just save his jump considering both cape and Mario Tornado leaves him quite vulnerable.

*If I missed a piece of your quote, my bad. Seriously tell though if I did...

Edit: Forgot to say that I find ledge, or near ledge, play more interesting than the alternative that Smash 4 provides. Which was supposed to be far, off-stage play I assume. But it wasn't done correctly.

 

[Tagxy]

Sorry this is nothing personal, if I had time to continue each discussion like this I would. But my point has been there's no significant certainty in your position and I think we're well beyond that.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

Sorry this is nothing personal, if I had time to continue each discussion like this I would. But my point has been there's no significant certainty in your position and I think we're well beyond that.

We might be.

 

[chipndip]

Regardless, at this point, if rolls are your problem, then your real problem isn't rolls: it's probably you.

The game's pacing is WAY faster than Brawl, and sometimes that awkward "dance" fighters get into with the shields and the rolls is how we interact while trying to 1-up each other. It's not like we're straight up spamming rolls all day, and if we are, the opponent should be able to do something about it if they aren't scrubs.

I say "we" since it's a community playing the game, so of course everyone's rollin' and fightin' n' junk.

 

[Phyr]

Just came to say. I laughed at people saying that rolls were problematic. I thought there were enough options to force the opponent out to do a bad roll and then punis, or just onslaught them with aerials with low ending lag. And actually i did so against a lot of people.

I was very wrong.

Actually i think yoshi has no way, at all, to combat rollers. His only coverage options against rollers are grabs (and they are risky), dash attack, jab and nair. None of them can kill even in 200+ (nair sweetpotted maybe, but it ends stalled because is the best coverage move against rollers). I have had 2 stock matches go to a loss becuase of opponents going into desperate mode and start rolling after every attempt of attack or worse, just waiting for me to attack and rolling, then punish; and being totally unable to deal the finish blow on them (or have my usmash perfect shielded/missed by some random gimmic of the character (greninja's crouch after hitting the ground after upb)) or stuff like that... while i keep getting damage with more percentage and moreeee percentage.

I'm sure most characters wont suffer from this, because they either have strong rolls, grabs, or some coverage moves who can kill, (or good proyectiles who can kill or keep away with) but at least yoshi doesn't seem to have any way, at all, to deal with them. The only way is hard reading them the moment they start waiting for your actions to roll, and it comes down to 1/3 of guessing right, and sometimes even less considering missinputs (because of the little time window to hit in some characters). Also, yoshi's slow roll doesn't let him do the hit and run tactic most rollers do and after a miss he WILL get punished HARD, while most people can just dance his way.

Really depressing situation. I have had matches went into a hellish uphill simply because the opponent started rolling every attempt of agression i had. And if you don't remember, yoshi's baaaaad standing grab doesn't let him play the defensive game: the only aerial it can use OOS is nair and it only hits in reaaaaaallllyyyyy close opponents.

Against the rest of fighting styles, yoshi is very good, and posibly S tier or higher. Yoshi's moveset let him be able to deal with many situations and counter a lot of aproachs while maintain pressure. Is somewhat weak to people shielding or playing defensive but his B let him have some options to punish passive people. But oh man, the rolls. The ****ing rolls. -.-

You can try. Do any attack as yoshi, roll with greninja behind him, and try as yoshi to get something before greninja grabs/jabs/fsmashes/usmashes you. You can't or at the very least greninja can go away and reset neutral veeeery easily...

At least and not last, the standing recovery from the edge seems broken with some characters. The invencibility frames last until the character can act again (and for some characters even a little more, being able to act with invencibility frames on them). Some long lasting moves can counter this but not always. And, wonder, Yoshi doesn't have any way to punish a guy who gets up normally because the only thing he has to do is: wait for yoshi trying to hit you below the edge (with dsmash/dtilt/fair in the edge)... you then get up normally and roll, or get with R rolling into the stage; or wait for yoshi to be in front of you and try something to get you, in which case the "best" move is posibly dash grab; the rest of moves are easily dodgable on offensive or "useless" in defensive (except nair).

If someone has something i have oversight, please, tell. But right now i don't see any way to deal with them.

For the rest of characters i don't see at the time anyone who has these 4 factors: bad/slow rolls, slow grabs, coverage attacks who can kill, or spamable proyectiles (mind you, yoshi's up b is a great proyectile but easily punishable in certain distances, and i mean, really, easy. As easy as running below the egg and usmashing).

I look forward for your insight on this topic. Thanks

 

[chipndip]

Just came to say. I laughed at people saying that rolls were problematic. I thought there were enough options to force the opponent out to do a bad roll and then punis, or just onslaught them with aerials with low ending lag. And actually i did so against a lot of people.

I was very wrong.

Actually i think yoshi has no way, at all, to combat rollers. His only coverage options against rollers are grabs (and they are risky), dash attack, jab and nair.

1) Yoshi can combat rollers.

2) All you need are those moves to fight rollers.

3) Use dash attack or throw to pop them in the air and THEN finish them somehow. Either meteor f-air them or u-air pressure them proper.

side note) N-air can ko before 200, but it depends on who's hit and where.

4) Using Greninja as a test subject for overall roll effectiveness is one-sided. Greninja has one of the best rolls in the game, period. You can still land a dash attack with a good read, and that leads to pressure or free u-air strings.

5) Standing out-right is probably the safest option getting up from the ledge without quick-falling and coming up with (hopefully) a high-priority attack, and even that can be hit. You don't want to make it too easy for someone like Shiek to punish nearly any and every defensive option in the game. This isn't Marvel. Just d-air the spot they come up at and if they roll or jump, they cant come back around and hit you anyway.

 

[otter]

for glory amplifies the problem since you have to chase people even if youre winning to avoid sudden death.

 

[Phyr]

3) Use dash attack or throw to pop them in the air and THEN finish them somehow. Either meteor f-air them or u-air pressure them proper.

That has been my strategy but it becomes faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar too predictable and it's easy to roll behind or just spotdodge.

I have had combats go to time out in tournament matches in my zone too. Think of it as a "magnified for glory mode". It's terrible lol.

 

[otter]

I don't mind timeouts if the better player wins, but sudden death just turns it into a coin flip.

It makes minor roll punishes even less worth it because the damage is meaningless unless you get those 5 consecutive reads afterwords.

In other fighting games, people run away while losing, and I can just stand there and take the win. In for glory you have to play along or have a 50% chance of losing.