Rolls seem problematic in this game

[JamietheAuraUser]

Rolls are pretty annoying, but far from OP, even online. Most rollers are inexperienced online warriors. I do not think you will find tourney level players spamming rolls. The online warriors rely on patterns and autopilot (dash attack > back roll > ...). This means all you have to do is learn their pattern, THEN punish. Also do not forget about short hops, they are a lot more mobile than ground attacks and can be mixed in with empty jumps so you can go for grabs instead.

Also guys, just block... If DHD is rolling around throwing discs, they cant hurt you if you block or just move out of the way. Eventually he will stop if the last 15 attempts failed. And I think a lot of people are respecting spammers way too much. A lot of moves like DHD can be out prioritized by aerials and dash attacks.

If you think rolls are OP, go into a match vs a lvl 9 cpu and attempt to roll all game and see if you still think rolls are OP lol.

The reason "online warriors" use patterns is because the quarter- to half-second input lag online makes reactive play nearly impossible. Everything requires a read. It's all strategy and mindgames and no reaction because you're rarely able to do anything to stop a move once it's started. I can barely stuff a charged Forward Smash with a jab even if I'm not having ridiculous frame drops because of input lag.

CPUs have frame-perfect reaction time and can see the exact frame data, so that's hardly a fair comparison. They can punish back rolls on reaction with a perfectly-timed Down Smash or Forward Smash. Plus, just try to stop a CPU from rolling around all game when they can roll to dodge many characters' jabs on reaction. Just how early is roll intangibility anyway? Like frame 2? Because as Pit I keep having my jab (the single fastest move in Pit's entire moveset) dodged via a forward roll right past me, and punished because Pit cannot jab cancel.

 

[Shack]

The reason "online warriors" use patterns is because the quarter- to half-second input lag online makes reactive play nearly impossible. Everything requires a read. It's all strategy and mindgames and no reaction because you're rarely able to do anything to stop a move once it's started. I can barely stuff a charged Forward Smash with a jab even if I'm not having ridiculous frame drops because of input lag.

CPUs have frame-perfect reaction time and can see the exact frame data, so that's hardly a fair comparison. They can punish back rolls on reaction with a perfectly-timed Down Smash or Forward Smash. Plus, just try to stop a CPU from rolling around all game when they can roll to dodge many characters' jabs on reaction. Just how early is roll intangibility anyway? Like frame 2? Because as Pit I keep having my jab (the single fastest move in Pit's entire moveset) dodged via a forward roll right past me, and punished because Pit cannot jab cancel.

I'm just offering advice for people that need help. What are you trying to say? Are you trying to prove to me that you cannot handle rolls online? lol

What you say is not true at all. Online warriors do not use their patterns because of lag, they use it because they get wins with it. The average player doesn't know how to stop it regardless of lag (Just like all the Kens in SF4 spamming jumping HK or Zangiefs spamming lariats). The lag just makes it harder to defend against. If the person is repeatedly using dash attacks and rolls, then block a head of time, dont try to perfect shield it. It's not very hard to do, you know they will run at you because it is the only way they know how to approach. So stand there blocking as soon as they twitch. Then after a few of those, they will either continue to do more or start grabbing. From there you mix in short hops to punish them some more.

When it comes to the rolls, you said it yourself that the CPU punishes rolls with well timed smash attacks. So this means you should probably work on your timing. If you know they will roll behind you, you can charge your smash before they even think to do it and they will roll into it just in time for you to release it. The alternative is use a character that has a move with long active hit boxes such as Sheik's charged needles or using the nair of most characters. Both of these moves have active hitboxes longer than the I frames on a roll. Short hops (like I said before) are very mobile and allow you to land behind them for free without taking any damage. If all of that is too hard, then just let them roll all they want. No one said you had to chase them in the first place. Let them come to you (which they can't do if they are rolling away all game).

 

[KageJuin]

I'm just offering advice for people that need help. What are you trying to say? Are you trying to prove to me that you cannot handle rolls online? lol

What you say is not true at all. Online warriors do not use their patterns because of lag, they use it because they get wins with it. The average player doesn't know how to stop it regardless of lag (Just like all the Kens in SF4 spamming jumping HK or Zangiefs spamming lariats). The lag just makes it harder to defend against. If the person is repeatedly using dash attacks and rolls, then block a head of time, dont try to perfect shield it. It's not very hard to do, you know they will run at you because it is the only way they know how to approach. So stand there blocking as soon as they twitch. Then after a few of those, they will either continue to do more or start grabbing. From there you mix in short hops to punish them some more.

When it comes to the rolls, you said it yourself that the CPU punishes rolls with well timed smash attacks. So this means you should probably work on your timing. If you know they will roll behind you, you can charge your smash before they even think to do it and they will roll into it just in time for you to release it. The alternative is use a character that has a move with long active hit boxes such as Sheik's charged needles or using the nair of most characters. Both of these moves have active hitboxes longer than the I frames on a roll. Short hops (like I said before) are very mobile and allow you to land behind them for free without taking any damage. If all of that is too hard, then just let them roll all they want. No one said you had to chase them in the first place. Let them come to you (which they can't do if they are rolling away all game).

I will give you the sane task I gave another person who was spreading lies: pick an opponent who is high lvl and can roll well. Pick ganondorf. Chase rolls and show me
How you do it. Latency online is an u deniable factor that makes reactions harder. This really makes me question why the hell these rolls got MORE invincibility rather than less.

 

[otter]

I don't think anyone here is losing to roll spammers. They might just winning by a smaller margin than in previous games and being forced to break even or get a small reward for getting correct reads.

 

[Roukiske]

While I don't think they are the most problematic, I do wish that the faster roll characters were toned down a bit. Its hard to catch some people with Ganon's obese-man run. Come to think of it... is rolling with Ganon faster than running? I have to test this...

Reminds me that Melee Falco's walk is faster than his run

 

[Thor]

Only counts for fastt characters. Please upload a replay of you vs this person and you pick ganondorf. I would like to see proof.

I will give you the sane task I gave another person who was spreading lies: pick an opponent who is high lvl and can roll well. Pick ganondorf. Chase rolls and show me
How you do it. Latency online is an u deniable factor that makes reactions harder. This really makes me question why the hell these rolls got MORE invincibility rather than less.

LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL @ DeLux I see why you stopped trying this is just dumb.

Just because you are not good at an aspect of the game doesn't mean someone has to prove that you're wrong. I knew people at school who would demand that I prove that Kirby (and Ike) in Brawl weren't broken - the only difference here and there is that recording equipment that I lack (or maybe have but don't realize it) wasn't necessary (I'm technologically incompetent - if you want to walk me through it I could try to find a reasonable example, but I don't make videos in general because of this [what I have are some Brawl Minus vids that others put up, but most of those are either very [relatively speaking] old, when I was just getting into it, or me screwing around with this one guy, so I don't know how much those really matter either).

Playing with lag is a terrible standard for determining how broken something is - that would make a nerf to Kirby's fsmash startup 100% justifiable in Brawl because that thing was MK dsmash speed when put in lag, and Kirby fsmash power [which is high]. But Kirby's Brawl fsmash is bad at high levels. Chudat, a mental master, can barely land ANY against top level players, because it's too slow. But we should nerf startup because OHMAHGAWDICAN'TPUNISHTHISINLAGMUSTNERF!!! ? That's just a bad idea on so many levels.

As for catching rolls as Ganondorf? I'm no Ganondorf main, but you have dashing right at them and potentially attacking (DA is plenty strong as Dorf) or not overcommitting and gaining more stage control (to continue to force the situation until they are at the ledge and have fewer options), flame choke, and Warlock Kick. You also have pivot fsmash and pivot ftilt if they roll behind you, or jump towards them and bair. Also if you trap them at the ledge, dsmash is great (in addition to pivot ftilt and pivot fsmash). If you're sure of yourself, fair and dair also work wonders (laggier though). Like I said, it's tedious, but it's not impossible. I also don't play Ganondorf very well [I can only play him at all because I used him to make things more fair when I played people at high school since they all disliked my Pikachu and Falco so much, so I asked them who to play and one googled the tier list (despite not believing it with respect to Ike and Kirby XD)], so I don't know how much this would actually prove anyway (that would be like demanding someone who has stated they hate projectiles play as Falco in Melee to show that Falco's laser is actually good - it's a silly demand because you don't have to be good at someone to know something is good).

I'm curious what other Ganondorfs (off the top of my head from briefly being in the Ganondorf social, and knowing a few prominent Brawl 'Dorfs from seeing videos) have to say - and if they fully disagree with me, well, as Jimmy Buffet says, it's my damn own fault:

@Vermanubis
@G~P
@Z1GMA
@DLA
[This list is off the top of my head, and based on some of the Brawl Ganondorf social activity that discussed Smash 4 when I briefly popped in there - if any of the above (or anyone really) has another Ganondorf to reference, by all means say so.]

If those people want to call me out as a liar, then I'll take it to the gut and admit I'm wrong. But coming from you, I can only laugh.

Wait, really? No wonder that move was so ridiculously abused by CPUs!. And no wonder my Smash Attacks (and jabs, and tilts...) seemed to so commonly whiff for absolutely no visible reason, only for me to eat a DSmash immediately afterwards.

XD XD XD XD XD NO NO NO NO NO

ROB had a spotdodge that had 19 invincibility frames, a hurtbox that wasn't fully sized until like frame 23 or 25 (due to how it was animated, similar to Dedede's), and his dsmash had 4 frames of startup. He's referencing spotdodge dsmash, a tactic that made many frustrated by ROB in the early days (and new players who face stronger ROBs who just do the easy thing to win).

 

[DeLux]

Yea. I've more or less decided that I gave up on this thread and I hope people continue to roll like it's their job so it makes winning easier

 

[KageJuin]

LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL @ DeLux I see why you stopped trying this is just dumb.

Just because you are not good at an aspect of the game doesn't mean someone has to prove that you're wrong. I knew people at school who would demand that I prove that Kirby (and Ike) in Brawl weren't broken - the only difference here and there is that recording equipment that I lack (or maybe have but don't realize it) wasn't necessary (I'm technologically incompetent - if you want to walk me through it I could try to find a reasonable example, but I don't make videos in general because of this [what I have are some Brawl Minus vids that others put up, but most of those are either very [relatively speaking] old, when I was just getting into it, or me screwing around with this one guy, so I don't know how much those really matter either).

Playing with lag is a terrible standard for determining how broken something is - that would make a nerf to Kirby's fsmash startup 100% justifiable in Brawl because that thing was MK dsmash speed when put in lag, and Kirby fsmash power [which is high]. But Kirby's Brawl fsmash is bad at high levels. Chudat, a mental master, can barely land ANY against top level players, because it's too slow. But we should nerf startup because OHMAHGAWDICAN'TPUNISHTHISINLAGMUSTNERF!!! ? That's just a bad idea on so many levels.

As for catching rolls as Ganondorf? I'm no Ganondorf main, but you have dashing right at them and potentially attacking (DA is plenty strong as Dorf) or not overcommitting and gaining more stage control (to continue to force the situation until they are at the ledge and have fewer options), flame choke, and Warlock Kick. You also have pivot fsmash and pivot ftilt if they roll behind you, or jump towards them and bair. Also if you trap them at the ledge, dsmash is great (in addition to pivot ftilt and pivot fsmash). If you're sure of yourself, fair and dair also work wonders (laggier though). Like I said, it's tedious, but it's not impossible. I also don't play Ganondorf very well [I can only play him at all because I used him to make things more fair when I played people at high school since they all disliked my Pikachu and Falco so much, so I asked them who to play and one googled the tier list (despite not believing it with respect to Ike and Kirby XD)], so I don't know how much this would actually prove anyway (that would be like demanding someone who has stated they hate projectiles play as Falco in Melee to show that Falco's laser is actually good - it's a silly demand because you don't have to be good at someone to know something is good).

I'm curious what other Ganondorfs (off the top of my head from briefly being in the Ganondorf social, and knowing a few prominent Brawl 'Dorfs from seeing videos) have to say - and if they fully disagree with me, well, as Jimmy Buffet says, it's my damn own fault:

@Vermanubis
@G~P
@Z1GMA
@DLA
[This list is off the top of my head, and based on some of the Brawl Ganondorf social activity that discussed Smash 4 when I briefly popped in there - if any of the above (or anyone really) has another Ganondorf to reference, by all means say so.]

If those people want to call me out as a liar, then I'll take it to the gut and admit I'm wrong. But coming from you, I can only laugh.



XD XD XD XD XD NO NO NO NO NO

ROB had a spotdodge that had 19 invincibility frames, a hurtbox that wasn't fully sized until like frame 23 or 25 (due to how it was animated, similar to Dedede's), and his dsmash had 4 frames of startup. He's referencing spotdodge dsmash, a tactic that made many frustrated by ROB in the early days (and new players who face stronger ROBs who just do the easy thing to win).

save the replay and record it with your phone camera. That's what I've been doing, asking people for pointers on here. Nobody seems to help so I took the opportunity to ask you to help me out.

It's simple: I can't punish on reaction and lag doesn't help.
dSmash is already overcomitting because it comes out so slowly, that the quick rolling characters ca roll through it like nothing happened, while me, as Ganondorf, am too slow to do the same back to them.

I actually got my ass handed to me by a Kirby who I could predict, but simply couldn't punish, partially due to the ridiculous roll invincibility, but also due to lag.

I will be honest and tell you that I really don't understand the logical step to making rolls even more invincible than they already were. They did their job just fine, which is escape someone who is needlessly spamming powerful moves.
It somehow got upgraded to the point where reaction rolling is now a standard thing as they can roll back and forth without you having much of an option other than rolling away and making the game neutral again.

Spot dodges aren't as bad, because people stay in the same spot. As most characters can just spam jab in case of spot dodges it's not much of an issue. Even Ganon can against certain opponents.


I am, like most others, complaining not about my inability. Heck. I love fighting games, even though I am not the best, but I don't complain about things being broken in Tekken or Street Fighter. I am complaining about the fact that after a read. Where I KNOW that the opponent is going to do, I get punished, time and time again. Either that or the game becomes ultra campy, since I can't punish and we poke and poke and simply don't kill each other.


I had a match time out last time because I decided not to commit to reads due to roll shenanigans. Died in sudden death anyway.



I just think this game is defensive enough WITHOUT the ridiculous rolls. I've had a DDD literally dodge to the end of the stage and spam gordos. whenever I get close he would dtilt or roll away or any combiniation of those. rinse and repeat. There wasnt much I could do actually. I blocked all the attacks. The only moment I ever get hit is when I try to punish but the roll instead.


Does this make me bad for attempting to punish someone throwing out moves at random? or does it make me bad for not taking into account they can always roll? does this mean I need to pick characters with fast, but powerful dash attacks which have few end frames so I can also dodge immediately after? I understand all the namecalling and hate when someone brings up fun.

But understand it in the correct context. It is only because a game is enjoyable that people want to become more competitive. If the game ceases to be enjoyable, then why continue? I am not someone who refuses to use a technique because it is seen as cheap or whatever. cheap kills and gimps are the most fun. This rolling just slows the game down and it degenerates to a ton of poking and jumping and rolling around, simply poking and not doing much untill the first person gets fed up and tries something new and dies.

 

[otter]

Some examples would be nice, even if it has to be in addition to insults. You can even fill in the lack of footage with "LOLs" if it makes you feel cool but at least try.

 

[Leebee]

LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL @ DeLux I see why you stopped trying this is just dumb.

LOLOLOL XD XD XD

U 2 SHOWD US LELULOL XD XD

 

[MarkT]

There it is. Played a guy from Japan who was using Link to my Pacman. Because of the lag, it was literally impossible to stop him. He just shot arrows and rolled and when i tried to be aggressive he'd throw out a downsmash after rolling 7 times in a row. Lag + rolls + projectile = no solution. I find it surprising that people have fun zoning like that... but to each his own I suppose.

 

[Jaur]

There it is. Played a guy from Japan who was using Link to my Pacman. Because of the lag, it was literally impossible to stop him. He just shot arrows and rolled and when i tried to be aggressive he'd throw out a downsmash after rolling 7 times in a row. Lag + rolls + projectile = no solution. I find it surprising that people have fun zoning like that... but to each his own I suppose.

Chasing people around the map that are trying to roll and projectile spam (and killing them) is my modus operandi in every online match at this point. It's very dull. It's a shame, because besides a few general mechanic choices, the game is really fun and well designed (especially the new characters).

 

[Thor]

Some examples would be nice, even if it has to be in addition to insults. You can even fill in the lack of footage with "LOLs" if it makes you feel cool but at least try.

I gave multiple examples [Ganondorf was the requested character]. If you'd like I can give more for other characters, based on who I've played against and what I've seen.

Since I doubt you'll go back and read my post, I'll copy the part where I gave suggestions for punishing rolls and methods of getting the opportunity for a punish. Here's what I already said:

As for catching rolls as Ganondorf? I'm no Ganondorf main, but you have dashing right at them and potentially attacking (DA is plenty strong as Dorf) or not overcommitting and gaining more stage control (to continue to force the situation until they are at the ledge and have fewer options), flame choke, and Warlock Kick. You also have pivot fsmash and pivot ftilt if they roll behind you, or jump towards them and bair. Also if you trap them at the ledge, dsmash is great (in addition to pivot ftilt and pivot fsmash). If you're sure of yourself, fair and dair also work wonders (laggier though).

So to make it a short list:
A) Run at them and get more stage control - eventually they run out of stage (quickly), and that's your chance. This option doesn't feel rewarding, but it can lead you directly to E, or else make them try to jump over you and airdodge, which is fine if you don't overcommit to aerials.
B) Dash attack them if you are close enough - strong, puts them above you, good chance to tack on more damage. Quick punish options.
C) Flame Choke them - this one is not very easy, but if you can space it you get a lot of percent (since flame choke doesn't seem to be teachable). This might not work on some rollers (Lucario, Little Mac this is not very likely, it's easier to do if you do good ol' tourism, aka run through their shield and Flame Choke, though you have to be close enough for that).
D) Warlock Kick them - this usually reaches and does reasonable damage, and also puts them airborne. Timing is often before they roll, but considering lag apparently makes other punishes so hard, they will likely roll and not see the startup until it's too late - a read, but an effective option.
E) If they are rolling around you, pivot ftilt, pivot fsmash, bair, or even dair can do a lot of damage, and again they put the opponent above you, which Ganondorf wants.

LOLOLOL XD XD XD

U 2 SHOWD US LELULOL XD XD

Laugh out loud out loud out loud? Hm...

At this point I'm in agreement with DeLux - it's easier to just let people believe something is OP (Ike fsmash, Kirby's rock, Smash 4 rolling) and just win more for it, than actually explain why it's not an issue. For Glory may be a roll trap, but rolling isn't good if you move beyond that to tournaments and the like (watching Jtails vs Nairo from KTAR X, rolls look questionable at best...).

There it is. Played a guy from Japan who was using Link to my Pacman. Because of the lag, it was literally impossible to stop him. He just shot arrows and rolled and when i tried to be aggressive he'd throw out a downsmash after rolling 7 times in a row. Lag + rolls + projectile = no solution. I find it surprising that people have fun zoning like that... but to each his own I suppose.

7 times in a row? If you mean he did that 7 times in a row, jeez... adapt. If he rolls -> dsmash, jump it and use an aerial, or shield it and grab or do a smash of your own [dsmash has even more lag than a roll]. If by that you mean he rolled seven times, then dsmashed, either he's rolling through you (pivot ftilt him) or he's on the ledge, so just jump over him and kick him offstage - then you have the advantageous position, and even if he gets onstage, you can repeat the pivots and/or SH aerials, depending on what they do. Plus if you can hydrant and force him high, the water may be enough to gimp him (which is very satisfying for PacMan, I can say that much).

Aggression doesn't mean "I'm going to use this powerful smash attack", it means "I'm going to take offensive options" - if you had attacked with, I dunno, a low lag aerial (or even just run him down and then shielded mid-run), you'd get a lot farther than... well whatever you did.

Empty jumps and empty runs are beautiful things against heavy rollers - they commit and then you can punish without yourself committing.

I don't know how bad the lag was, but if it was just arrows you could running shield, or even roll past them yourself, to close the gap. Double jumping over them is not a terrible idea (bait the arrow release), and you can gain height with the hydrant (and use it as a single-use shield against arrows). You also have your own fruit to throw at him (and can kick the hydrant his way if he just waits for you to come from behind it). These ideas are all just off the top of my head though.

EDIT: At this point I'd also love the people I tagged above to come in just for general advice, since they played a very slow character in Brawl that lived off of punishes and hard reads (more or less), so seeing what they think about For Glory (or roll punishes in general) would be very nice.

 

[WabbitSeason]

Rolls are ridiculous at this point. Punishing them is almost impossible considering how slow the game is and in many cases trying to d-smash puts you in the bad position. Little Mac is just plain absurd. GL if you're using anyone who isn't top tier speed.

I hope Wii U version has faster gameplay than this one.

 

[theunabletable]

Yea. I've more or less decided that I gave up on this thread and I hope people continue to roll like it's their job so it makes winning easier

This is like... pretty arrogant, actually. I've done everything I can to abide by your requests and facilitate conversation. I've made several responses to the key points you've made, even going so far as to discover the exact frame data you were looking for, and perform my own analysis on it, inviting you to do the same. As well as responding to the philosophical aspects of your posts. All of which has been ignored.

And you (and everyone else) have given up? I don't get the impression you've given it a serious try at all, nothing to give up; it's kind of uncool to say something so dismissive in light of that.

"I don't have a problem punishing rolling."

yeah well you've probably only played against bad rolling, like randoms on for glory. It seems to be faster than reaction for most moves, and in many situations.

"We can't really know that without the frame data"

Well here's the frame data showing that it's kind of questionable, and completely comparable to MK's, who no one was ever able to punish without a read (but with twice the invincibility.)

"Well what you're saying is that it's basically degenerate, and by definition something is degenerate if and only if the entire metagame revolves around it, and this clearly won't go that way."

I mean I'm not really talking about that sort of thing. Not really saying it's broken or overcentralizing, since it's not unbeatable or anything, just trying to make a serious case for rolls being actually difficult to deal with.

"I give up on this thread. Silly thread."



Like, idk, what am I supposed to do? Everything I say is taken out of context, or distracted with side-tangents that are unrelated, all the while every single response drips with an enthymeme of disrespect.

I've given several very relevant responses, and you can back out if you want, but you don't get to call it "giving up".


Roughly aimed at everyone, but more explicitly in response to lux

 

[DeLux]

This is like... pretty arrogant, actually. I've done everything I can to abide by your requests and facilitate conversation. I've made several responses to the key points you've made, even going so far as to discover the exact frame data you were looking for, and perform my own analysis on it, inviting you to do the same. As well as responding to the philosophical aspects of your posts. All of which has been ignored.

And you (and everyone else) have given up? I don't get the impression you've given it a serious try at all, nothing to give up; it's kind of uncool to say something so dismissive in light of that.

"I don't have a problem punishing rolling."

yeah well you've probably only played against bad rolling, like randoms on for glory. It seems to be faster than reaction for most moves, and in many situations.

"We can't really know that without the frame data"

Well here's the frame data showing that it's kind of questionable, and completely comparable to MK's, who no one was ever able to punish without a read (but with twice the invincibility.)

"Well what you're saying is that it's basically degenerate, and by definition something is degenerate if and only if the entire metagame revolves around it, and this clearly won't go that way."

I mean I'm not really talking about that sort of thing. Not really saying it's broken or overcentralizing, since it's not unbeatable or anything, just trying to make a serious case for rolls being actually difficult to deal with.

"I give up on this thread. Silly thread."



Like, idk, what am I supposed to do? Everything I say is taken out of context, or distracted with side-tangents that are unrelated, all the while every single response drips with an enthymeme of disrespect.

I've given several very relevant responses, and you can back out if you want, but you don't get to call it "giving up".


Roughly aimed at everyone, but more explicitly in response to lux

Table, I respect your opinion immensely. I think last I mentioned when we spoke in person, I mentioned exactly how highly I think of your perception, interpretation, and portrayal of what the game is/should be. And as I mentioned in one of my previous posts, my posts for the latter portion of the thread have not been directed at you. I haven't directly responded to you because I haven't seen you pressing forward with some sort of categorical need to fix the game, more you're critiquing the game which is fair. If we agree that it isn't going to necessarily be degenerate to the point of banning, that's all that really matters to me, which I'll get more into a bit later.

But to be honest, and as you have mentioned and agree to as well, this is all a subjective matter. How good rolls should be is going to be a subjective matter of opinion. I think there's immense beauty in rolls being an extremely viable option. I speculate that once they become the norm, we'll start seeing more critical/climatic points where people will sequence to set up the one hard read that puts it away. I suspect this is also the design that the makers had in mind when they put together the engine, especially with the changes to edgeguarding, airdodges (both in the air and landing), and OOS options taken into consideration. I look at it in this matter because due to my character choices in Brawl (ZSS/ICs), my patterns of approaching the game are geared towards playing the poke and trade to sequence for heavy punish, so I usually see people rolling as a good thing rather than a bad. I think a majority of my Smash 3Ds play has come against Fragger, Dakpo and Shaky, all of which are capable of beating me and or beat me every time, but it sure as hell wasnt' because of rolling lol. But all that's besides the point, because our speculation on where the metagame shifts won't matter since the invisible hand of playing to win is going to shape it into whatever it may be on its own natural accord.

Most of the giving up on the thread is watching people act as if there's some sort of imperative that this "needs" to be changed. This is prior to any preliminary research being done, as well as an extremely low amount of empirical evidence in the live tournament setting.

Do I think it will have tremendous ramifications on the metagame? Of course I do. It'll develop into something terrible or beautiful or horrible or great. But it will develop into something.

Do I think it matters what we critique of the game? I don't. I think Nintendo is going to do whatever they are going to do. So rather than worry about whether it's problematic for the metagame if X tactic develops, I am just going to focus on playing the game and playing the winning tactics. I have a feeling it won't be copious amounts of rolling, but if that's what it takes to win, that's what I'm going to do to win. Thus why I asked if it's problematic to the point of degenerating to a strictly dominant strategy. If it gets there, and since we can't ban it, obviously our only choice is to not play the game. And at this point I like playing the game so I'm just going to operate under the paradigm assuming it isn't a problem.

Do I think people have put their best effort into figuring out how to beat this problematic rolling before giving up? No I don't. The game hasn't been out long enough for someone to give an earnest best effort. I takes usually a year and a half of competitive play to really get into the threshold of optimizing play. It probably takes another year after that to really get into the specialization needed for fully optimized play.

There are people out there that are already blaming the game for their losses, in a stage where they should be taking it upon themselves to improve. This is the shifting of the paradigm. This is the chance for a new player to rise up and overthrow the elite that have really plagued Smash. But I remember how hard it was for me to get to an even high level of play in Brawl, and how much effort it took. And I give up because if the people that are posting here are already giving up a month in and blaming the game, I don't have high hopes that they will be able to ride out that 1.5 year grind of unrewarded effort before the magic of the metagame puts them in a position where they can win and matter. And it's tragic, because the new game presents such a tremendous opportunity for them. Rolling is going to be one of many "problematic" aspects of the metagame that awaits them. And if I can help them overcome just one of those obstacles with simply nudging them to not accept it as a problem and utilize it towards winning, that's something I'm much more interested in than being the academic I used to be.

Spoiler

"It takes both passion and perspective. Certainly all historical experience confirms the truth - that man would not have attained the possible unless time and again he had reached out for the impossible. But to do that a man must be a leader, and not only a leader but a hero as well, in a very sober sense of the word. And even those who are neither leaders nor heroes must arm themselves with that steadfastness of heart which can brave even the crumbling of all hopes. This is necessary right now, or else men will not be able to attain even that which is possible today.” - Max Weber

 

[otter]

There are people out there that are already blaming the game for their losses,

why is it so impossible for people to comprehend that this has nothing to do with it. Quit projecting.

 

[DeLux]

why is it so impossible for people to comprehend that this has nothing to do with it. Quit projecting.

You're feeling pretty sensitive for something not explicitly directed at them, but what the hell, I'll bite.

I don't think I'm projecting, as I'm the first person to note when I'm bad.

There are things that are happening/being said in the community outside of the context of this thread. This thread is but one of many instances where the game is being scapegoated as faulty as an explanation for "good" players not winning, "correct decisions" being punished, etc. It's just unfortunate that a reasonable academic critique is being morphed in some minds to vindicate the idea the game is faulty, rather than the playstyle/decision is faulty in the new paradigm. Or if we don't want to be quite as harshly judgmental, attribute it to a misunderstanding of how the real game works.

The metagame is undeveloped. The playstyles are undeveloped. The players are undeveloped. Either rolls will be a problem or they won't be a problem. That won't matter until things develop either way, so it's best not to think of them as a problem and focus on how to use them being better for winning purposes. Heck, I'd go as far as saying that labeling them as a "problem" will trend towards people using them more, assuming they are enterprising and want to win.

 

[Shaya]

Early interpretations of rolls is okay, explicitly saying they're OP and undeniably such is ridiculous. Absurdly ridiculous.
Same reason we don't run tier lists early is because anyone's opinion on them is asinine.

Using anecdotal evidence for anything, without even live competitive tournament experience is questionable.
Using anecdotal evidence from WIFI? That's insulting to what competitive play means.
Are you watching tournament matches or good players at every opportunity to base your opinions off of either? If you are, is rolling seemingly dominating or centralising in tactics and play? Would you like to provide evidence to the contrary or otherwise? If not, you may as well not post.

This may seem alienating to new players who just want to talk about the game, but you could do so with at least the perspective that your experiences aren't conclusive nor infallible (neither are ours). As I've said in another thread, we're a section to discuss how to improve, not to complain. If this thread persists with well experienced and verbose players being shut out and down by the noise of an unbending rhetoric then this shouldn't be here.

I definitely agree that the gameplay we see on For Glory is toxic and often boring, and it scales horrendously with latency to become unbearably infuriating. Not being able to consistently stop or punish a player rolling in a single direction X times is an extremely silly oversight by Sakurai; to many of us who've been around a while, that is to be expected.
But that is why two games in a row, offline play will be most preferred, and otherwise, people will always steer towards the friends system to play matches with their own rules rather than relying on a system that guarantees frustration.

Offline this is an entirely different ball game. Precision on inputs, such as turning around out of shield properly (or out of any other action: YOU CAN BUFFER THIS) will allow me not get trapped so easily. Dashing in a single direction on reaction to rolling nullifies any positional advantage rolls give an opponent usually and you have pivot tilts/grabs with easy execution offline to accentuate that "roll counter" without committing so hard.
Being able to time shields to people's out of roll actions while dashing means a hell of a lot too.

From what I've seen rolls in this game are in the 20-30 frame reach. They tend to have very little invincibility on start up but otherwise are almost completely safe cool downs. Double rolling should not be a thing if you're following rolls with dashes appropriately because of this.

 

[otter]

I agree. I've been unable to roll out of multi-hit moves at least so I think the startup is vulnerable. It might just be the first frame.

 

[Shack]

I will give you the sane task I gave another person who was spreading lies: pick an opponent who is high lvl and can roll well. Pick ganondorf. Chase rolls and show me
How you do it. Latency online is an u deniable factor that makes reactions harder. This really makes me question why the hell these rolls got MORE invincibility rather than less.

What is the purpose of this task? I do not play Gannondorf and he is also considered a weaker character. All this "task" would prove is what we already know (that he is weaker than others in the cast).

Regardless, no one is forcing you to try and attack an invincible move. If you are losing to rolls it means that the other person is actually reading you and anticipating your movements. That means the real problem is that your patterns are obvious/telegraphic. If they are roll spamming, let them, rolls don't do damage...

 

[MarkT]

Thanks for the tips but I'm really kind of just ******** here.

This game was a special case. It was laggy enough that you would never be able to do any of your suggestions because what you see on screen happened 200ms ago. You see an arrow, you run forward, he releases the arrow, you block, the arrow hits you regardless cause your shield never actually happened. You predict a roll, so you pivot attack in the other direction, but your timing is delayed by the lag and his roll finishes and a new roll starts before your middle lands.

All that said, I think most people here are just frustrated because running and hiding and camping just stalls the game so much. Whether we win or lose, these games are just not fun. When players actually want to outplay me, games end in 2 minutes, they are exciting and fun and you learn tactics and develop a meta game. When you play a roller, the game goes to 4+ minutes, you get frustrated, and you learn nothing. You've already learned the players entire game in 10 seconds and the rest is you just quietly making them pay for what feels like forever. And if there's lag, it becomes way harder to punish and so you feel like an idiot, whiffing attacks you always land and potentially losing games you know you should win.

We can make rollers pay. It's just tedious.

7 times in a row? If you mean he did that 7 times in a row, jeez... adapt. If he rolls -> dsmash, jump it and use an aerial, or shield it and grab or do a smash of your own [dsmash has even more lag than a roll]. If by that you mean he rolled seven times, then dsmashed, either he's rolling through you (pivot ftilt him) or he's on the ledge, so just jump over him and kick him offstage - then you have the advantageous position, and even if he gets onstage, you can repeat the pivots and/or SH aerials, depending on what they do. Plus if you can hydrant and force him high, the water may be enough to gimp him (which is very satisfying for PacMan, I can say that much).

Aggression doesn't mean "I'm going to use this powerful smash attack", it means "I'm going to take offensive options" - if you had attacked with, I dunno, a low lag aerial (or even just run him down and then shielded mid-run), you'd get a lot farther than... well whatever you did.

Empty jumps and empty runs are beautiful things against heavy rollers - they commit and then you can punish without yourself committing.

I don't know how bad the lag was, but if it was just arrows you could running shield, or even roll past them yourself, to close the gap. Double jumping over them is not a terrible idea (bait the arrow release), and you can gain height with the hydrant (and use it as a single-use shield against arrows). You also have your own fruit to throw at him (and can kick the hydrant his way if he just waits for you to come from behind it). These ideas are all just off the top of my head though.

 

[KageJuin]

Thanks for the tips but I'm really kind of just *****ing here.

This game was a special case. It was laggy enough that you would never be able to do any of your suggestions because what you see on screen happened 200ms ago. You see an arrow, you run forward, he releases the arrow, you block, the arrow hits you regardless cause your shield never actually happened. You predict a roll, so you pivot attack in the other direction, but your timing is delayed by the lag and his roll finishes and a new roll starts before your middle lands.

All that said, I think most people here are just frustrated because running and hiding and camping just stalls the game so much. Whether we win or lose, these games are just not fun. When players actually want to outplay me, games end in 2 minutes, they are exciting and fun and you learn tactics and develop a meta game. When you play a roller, the game goes to 4+ minutes, you get frustrated, and you learn nothing. You've already learned the players entire game in 10 seconds and the rest is you just quietly making them pay for what feels like forever. And if there's lag, it becomes way harder to punish and so you feel like an idiot, whiffing attacks you always land and potentially losing games you know you should win.

We can make rollers pay. It's just tedious.

glad someone understands.

To the last guy who quoted me: just no.

I am not being rolled for telegraphing anything, they just roll to the other side of the field as soon as I get there, with me having no option to punish, mainly because lag means nothing is on reaction, plus invincible, fast rolls?

I have been destroying as little mac because guess what? It's safe to spam attacks and roll for safety. It works 90% of the time. Imagine someone competent (ahem: moi) being a the helm?

2 stock all da err day!!

I just think it's cheap, so I switch to Ganon or Robin since I prefer their playstyles, but get rolled more often as them

 

[Prawn]

Dude rolls are so good omg

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

People clearly aren't reading what I'm saying. So I'll restate it.

I'm saying "Even if you make a correct hard read, if you mistime (or misaim" the punish for making the right read, you don't deserve landing the hit." Hungrybox missing that Rest is an example of it - so is every time you charge dsmash and release it too early or late - you didn't execute the punish, so you don't deserve the KB and percent. I said it before, I'll say it again: "
Rolls are not fully invincible in this game, so if you are missing punishes, you are doing it wrong. And if you don't punish properly, you don't deserve to be rewarded, you deserve the lag of a missed punish, and punishment if your opponent can capitalize. That's the nature of Smash." What part about this is unclear?

Punishes weren't terribly easy to begin with - Fox had only 6 frames of vulnerability (I believe) from a standard getup in Melee because of shine, and that 6 frames is still more than enough for consistent jab reset -> rest.

The rolling away is annoying [I believe this is the Shulk/Mario thing], but that's why you can dash and have options (ex: dash through the roller, pivot fsmash) or just force them offstage - dash attacks in this game (for many characters) will kill eventually, and the sting of 50 Marth fairs still kills even Captain Falcon in Melee (as uninteresting as you may find using fair 50 times, it will kill pretty much anyone). Or you can just keep forcing them toward the edge - don't punish with an attack, just reposition, or punish but don't always follow-up - and if they roll to the edge, you have them with their back to the wall - if they roll, fsmash will do quite a bit, and if they jump over you, that's why you have aerials (or landing trap with usmash, etc.). You also can just punish them and edgeguard - no you can't just flow-chart people but that doesn't mean characters aren't capable of gimping others. If they can get on the ledge and back onstage, you overextended.

I never said punishable = fair - I said that I think rolls are sufficiently punishable to where they are not some massive problem that people are making them out to be. Even Falco's spotdodge was punishable with practice - I think people practicing will make this less of an issue as people adapt to the new timing for punishing rolls.

I have fought some heavy rollers (and someone who actually rolled so incredibly intelligently I forgot about punishing them with actual moves and only read them for positional advantage - that matchup was difficult and we played multiple times, though I pulled it out most of the time, if only by simply taking full advantage of better positions) - it's not fun [at first] because you aren't hitting them as much, and it can be tedious adjusting to new roll habits (the "Always behind" vs "always away" vs "Always center stage" vs "rolls to edge and spotdodges and tries to bthrow", etc.) but against heavy rollers they pretty much always have habits, and for those that ever roll toward center stage, I can only say that pivot fsmash is a new and beautiful thing in Smash 4.

Ok - I finally got time to respond to this. What you're saying isn't unclear - I just disagree.

We aren't talking about get-ups first of all; that has nothing to do with anything. Punishing a jab-reset is easy because you always know that the timing is going to be exactly the same...everytime. The jab also works as a hit-confirm, so you know 100% that a get-up is going to happen. And you are already in place. This is a lot different from a roll, where you don't even know if they are going to roll in the first place ( let alone left, right, or spot dodge or hold the roll for a split second).

I simply think rolls need a few more frames of vulnerability so that a larger percentage of the cast can actually punish someone rolling away from you (with a read). You keep refering back to Jigglypuff's Rest in Melee. Why, it doesn't help your point. First off, Rest comes out on the very first frame. Secondly, since it's a B-move it can be executed instantly from a running animation ( or in the air ). Keep in mind that Rest, like a F-Smash, is supposedly built around a high risk/high reward concept. Now you see my problem when you say " Oh - just pivot F-Smash" and compare it to a Rest. It's so much harder to get a pivot F-Smash when you have about 1000% more startup (literally Mario's F-Smash starts on frame 12 in Melee ) and less time to actually punish the roll.

EDIT: So if you think Rest in Melee is a fair move ( which I believe it is ), then you have to see that even hard punish options need to have good enough qualities to be used in a real match.

This is why I used that overexagerated 1-frame example. I hope we can both agree that 1-frame would be way too little vulnerability, yet technically speaking you could punish even this with a "hard" enough read. The "You're doing it wrong" logic could also be applied to ridiculous examples such this. So that's why I remain unconvinced, because that logic doesn't really weigh practicality versus theory.

I understand this is a fighting game. So obviously you shouldn't throw timing out the window. But punishing a roll shouldn't be about super accurate timing. The beauty of it before was the prediction game it created. Rolls in other games felt fairer because it required both players to participate in a mental battle. The rolling player had make sure they choose the option that they thought thier opponent wasn't expecting. And the opposite person had to choose the option they thought thier opponent was going to do. That makes sense to me.

But then you make rolling a lot harder to punish even on an accurate read ( which can cause you to get hurt even on soft punishes too) and that interesting guessing game is destroyed. Now the rolling player doesn't need to think nearly as much. Sure - they might choose the wrong option, but half of the time it won't matter and they'll be rewarded for it too. I'm sorry but if someone rolls into a charged F-Smash, I don't think the timing should be as strict as it is now. They clearly made the wrong decision - the timing of the punish at this point should be trivial. Especially, if that timing makes rolling away from someone uber effective.

Can you explain to me why you think it was a good design choice to make rolls less punishable. Like I've explained why I think it isn't a good idea and you just retort with "You're doing it wrong."

Honestly, what I'm probably going to do is try to ruin For Glory by being that guy who sees how much he can abuse rolls. I'm sorry if you see a Wario-colored Mario dodging like it's nobody business - it's for science.

 

[meowth_]

Yeah one of the first things taht I noticed about htis game in comparison to brawl is just the frames on the back roll. It's basically confirmed to always be a part of the meta. It's really fast, way way faster than it was in Brawl. If you look at it closely you can see it.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

@ Shaya @ Thor @ DeLux

I'll admit the game is still early and that Wifi isn't the best place to test our statements. Of course you can always believe that offline, on the Wii U, it won't be as bad ( which may or may not be true ). I think it was @ T theunabletable who gave a lag indepenedent argument ( aka this aspect of rolls was "annoying" in Brawl, this same aspect was made stronger in Smash 4, therefore the problem is probably going to get worse ). So we'll see what happens.

But I don't have a problem with people formulating opinions based on theory-craft (even calling certain aspects OP) as long as the arguement itself is solid and reasonable. I think the wait-and-see strategy is admirable, but at the same time there isn't much conversation that can be created with that. I do think that people who think "Rolls are fine, and people need to punish them better" are valuable. Because they have a good mindset to vigourously test to see if rolls are in fact overpowered.

But if it ultimately comes down to "We'll see," well - I guesse there isn't much more to say and we'll see...

 

[ellord]

I noticed this roll buff, this is a problem in online with lag on some character but still punishable for most character in offline. Greninja and rosalina is still a problem, because with their rolling speed, they become invisible and if you dash A or dash tilt to the wrong side, they can punish you.

 

[meleebrawler]

Here I was thinking Sakurai could take yet another page from Uprising and include
a stamina mechanic to punish excessive dodging...

 

[響「Hibiki」]

The reason "online warriors" use patterns is because the quarter- to half-second input lag online makes reactive play nearly impossible.

I think this whole thread is extremely silly, but this just struck me as odd. I don't know what kind of trash connection you are playing with, or if every single one of your opponents is from the other side of the globe, but my input lag is generally at about 60-100ms, bar very few exceptions (usually players from Japan, I'm in Europe - those give me up to 500-600ms input lag). This is after 700+ online matches.
That's far from quarter- to half-second input lag.
If you try to support your argument with the good old "it's lagging, that's why!", at least provide realistic input lag numbers.

 

[KageJuin]

Ok - I finally got time to respond to this. What you're saying isn't unclear - I just disagree.

We aren't talking about get-ups first of all; that has nothing to do with anything. Punishing a jab-reset is easy because you always know that the timing is going to be exactly the same...everytime. The jab also works as a hit-confirm, so you know 100% that a get-up is going to happen. And you are already in place. This is a lot different from a roll, where you don't even know if they are going to roll in the first place ( let alone left, right, or spot dodge or hold the roll for a split second).

I simply think rolls need a few more frames of vulnerability so that a larger percentage of the cast can actually punish someone rolling away from you (with a read). You keep refering back to Jigglypuff's Rest in Melee. Why, it doesn't help your point. First off, Rest comes out on the very first frame. Secondly, since it's a B-move it can be executed instantly from a running animation ( or in the air ). Keep in mind that Rest, like a F-Smash, is supposedly built around a high risk/high reward concept. Now you see my problem when you say " Oh - just pivot F-Smash" and compare it to a Rest. It's so much harder to get a pivot F-Smash when you have about 1000% more startup (literally Mario's F-Smash starts on frame 12 in Melee ) and less time to actually punish the roll.

EDIT: So if you think Rest in Melee is a fair move ( which I believe it is ), then you have to see that even hard punish options need to have good enough qualities to be used in a real match.

This is why I used that overexagerated 1-frame example. I hope we can both agree that 1-frame would be way too little vulnerability, yet technically speaking you could punish even this with a "hard" enough read. The "You're doing it wrong" logic could also be applied to ridiculous examples such this. So that's why I remain unconvinced, because that logic doesn't really weigh practicality versus theory.

I understand this is a fighting game. So obviously you shouldn't throw timing out the window. But punishing a roll shouldn't be about super accurate timing. The beauty of it before was the prediction game it created. Rolls in other games felt fairer because it required both players to participate in a mental battle. The rolling player had make sure they choose the option that they thought thier opponent wasn't expecting. And the opposite person had to choose the option they thought thier opponent was going to do. That makes sense to me.

But then you make rolling a lot harder to punish even on an accurate read ( which can cause you to get hurt even on soft punishes too) and that interesting guessing game is destroyed. Now the rolling player doesn't need to think nearly as much. Sure - they might choose the wrong option, but half of the time it won't matter and they'll be rewarded for it too. I'm sorry but if someone rolls into a charged F-Smash, I don't think the timing should be as strict as it is now. They clearly made the wrong decision - the timing of the punish at this point should be trivial. Especially, if that timing makes rolling away from someone uber effective.

Can you explain to me why you think it was a good design choice to make rolls less punishable. Like I've explained why I think it isn't a good idea and you just retort with "You're doing it wrong."

Honestly, what I'm probably going to do is try to ruin For Glory by being that guy who sees how much he can abuse rolls. I'm sorry if you see a Wario-colored Mario dodging like it's nobody business - it's for science.

Thank you.
At least you have some common sense and actually play the game.
I wish more people actually played the game before telling everyone to simply get better at it. It's not exactl constructive criticism, especially not when they strawman and simply ignore the points that are brought up as a counter argument.

On a different note:

I decided to play online today as Mac and DDD. Duck Hunt was also picked.

Best back rolls ever. all I did was throw out smashes with mac and dodge roll. I won 6 matches and lost 1.
I played as DDD spamming gordos and back rolling. I made multiple opponents SD after losing one life, not having touched me.

Duck Hunt requires more skill so that wasn't the case, though I did escape a ton of punishes and managed to beat a very good Toon Link Player by basically dodge rolling and spamming projectiles.

welcome to smash 4

Pick a good roller and quick smasher/ projectile spammer and you will have good matchups against most of the cast.

 

[Conda]

I think the main point is this:

Rolling is more powerful this time around, due to speed. This doesn't make them a problem, though, it just makes them a more characteristic aspect to some characters. Some characters have purposefully 'very good' rolls as part of their moveset-balancing properties. Little Mac and Rosalina rolling is very characteristic and affects fights moreso than how some other characters just generically roll.

DK rolling is just a normal old roll, but a Greninja/LittleMac/etc (whoever may have a very good roll) can utilize multiple rolls in more effective ways. Not in BROKEN ways, just more effective ways than normal.

Rolls are not universally unpunishable, though. And they are generally not a problem. However, they can very likely provide strong defensive options in some matchups. In THIS way, rolling can be a very defining aspect to a matchup being disadvantageous. This was never the case in the past, but some rolls are good enough this time around that it can actually potentially be a reason for a matchup being in a characters' favour.

Other than that, though, rolls are just 'annoying' online due to lag and because it's the easier thing to do for new players. Dashing and walking aren't as easy to perfect compared to roll-spam, and roll-spam is pretty effective. But once you get better, roll-spam will most likely not be a big problem anymore (annoying yes, but not a big problem).

 

[Doval]

Back rolls may cover a lot of ground but they're not going to help you kill someone. It doesn't matter if you can't catch a back roll because your character is slow - they'll have to approach you at some point, and if the game had slow rolls they'd find another way to play keep away. Meanwhile they're giving up ground that you now control. Forward rolling behind people is risky and punishable, so there's no problem.

 

[Zork]

Yeah I used to watch streams and go "if that were me this player would get bodied for all these rolls". Then I started to notice they were a lot better than I realized when I saw more and more good players falling for them and failing to punish them consistently.

In fact, today I saw Zero on stream playing against a Rosalina as Bowser. I kid you not all this player did was roll, dash attack, Smash and occasionally do an aerial (but mostly the first 3). Zero almost lost to this player. He got a meteor off iirc but probably would have lost otherwise going off how the match was going.

Now Zero is no doubt one of the best Smashers in the entire WORLD. And he almost lost to day 1 scrub tactics. Think about that for a second.

I mean forget Zero, if MYSELF were playing that player in Brawl I am certain I would be 2-3 stocking this player every match. But in Smash 4? Easy mode options like these somehow become a bit too viable and it's really unfortunate.

Edit:

Yes forward rolls are punishable but not really on reaction anymore it seems. It seems one must hard read a roll to effectively punish it. Doing it on reaction doesn't seem that viable like it was in previous Smash titles.

 

[Shaya]

Well, that could be a match up thing.
What does Bowser have that reaches towards Rosalina in a way that applies pressure that she cannot just backroll away from?
Rosalina's range with dash attack, and Bowser's big heavy size makes him unable to avoid the second hit of dash attack with Smash DI. Rosalina can likely dash attack on reaction Bowser's attacks on Luma as well.

And it's still a wifi situation, no? Was he playing another competitive player or just for glory?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

For the wifi situation, it's more often going to be worse on a handheld than on a console.

Handhelds can get a decent or goid connection but not as stable or fast as a console.

 

[otter]

some people are saying "If you don't have frame perfect inputs, you shouldn't get damage on your correct read. In fact you should be punished for trying, even though you knew what your opponent was about to do and they had no idea what you were about to do". I simply think that's wrong. Especially when you often have to attack preemptively to punish rolls with many characters.

It creates a situation where two players of vastly different skill levels can have a close match. Unless you give up and just concede back to neutral game, which seems to be the answer for most situations in this game.

so before another person replies that I should be conceding nuetral so I don't lose anymore. I AM NOT LOSING, it's just not fun.

 

[Tagxy]

Roughly aimed at everyone, but more explicitly in response to lux

I'm guessing this was at least partially aimed at me. Between the ghetto frame test you and I did, Im inclined to believe rolling is not a problem, so I didnt respond.

• Little Mac appears to have the best roll in the game, which is about the same as Brawl MKs forward roll in length while better on invincibility. Little Mac is also advertised as an outstanding ground based character and horrid while in the air. I find this to be more or less fair.
• Sheiks roll, claimed to be a good roll, seems in line with melee and brawls rolls.
• People have mistakenly felt rolls to be better than they were in the past.
• People are drastically underestimating the affects that minor latency issues have. Theres a reason frollcario was a thing on Brawl wifi and not offline.
• As far as Ive seen, rolling doesnt seem overused in the upper portions of bracket at significant tournaments.

I feel rolls will be within the range of what existed in Melee and Brawl. And while not directed at you, like Lux I didnt bother responding to those that had a scrubby (by definition, not insult) attitude on their potential improvement so I just stopped posting in this thread.

 

[Doval]

Edit:

Yes forward rolls are punishable but not really on reaction anymore it seems. It seems one must hard read a roll to effectively punish it. Doing it on reaction doesn't seem that viable like it was in previous Smash titles.

Except for maybe Little Mac, for someone to forward roll behind you he has to get into your attack range first. That means you have *two* opportunities to hit them. If you both unexpectedly end up within rolling distance because of something like a clanked attack then anything that happens at that point will require prediction, roll or not.

And again, it doesn't matter whether you can punish any roll, forward or back. What matters is that you can punish actions that hurt you. Even if you can't punish a forward roll, if you can escape unscathed with a roll of your own or if you can act even a moment sooner than them, there is absolutely no problem. Complaining that the opponent can dodge your attacks is like complaining that they can keep their distance from you.

Good rolls don't lead to a campy meta; lack of viable attack/approach options lead to a campy meta.

 

[otter]

Good rolls don't lead to a campy meta; lack of viable attack/approach options lead to a campy meta.

I agree, but there's also an issue many character's few worthwhile moves not being able to kill. If I react to a roll with an f tilt, that's going to be pretty useless until 150%+, and there is a reasonable chance that ill get hit by a random smash attack and die at 60% before I can read 10 rolls. I'm not the best player in the world, you shouldn't have to be to get into the meat of the game.