Rolls seem problematic in this game

[-LzR-]

Airdodge framedata is worse when landing but much better when used without landing. Frametrapping airdodges is pretty hard with slow and ****ty characters like Charizard.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

No the reason Luigi has struggled in smash is that he is not able to hold any of the ground he gains. His traction has ruined his approach game because he loses any ground he gains by blocking. If Luigi didn't slide in brawl he would have been a much better character.

If Diddy kong had enough space to double jump, side b with a banana in hand, then how on earth were you pressuring him to begin with? That situation didn't have diddy in a bad spot getting toa better one, it had him going from a good spot to an equally good spot at the cost of him spending 4 seconds to do it.

That command dash you mentioned exists. It's teleports specifically akumas. And Akumas teleport (which can be canceled into ultra, and is a faster mobility option than most characters are capable of) has never been an extremely problematic mechanic. As opposed to rolls which are not faster than almost any characters mobility options.

I also slightly disagree with neutral tools being more important than a lot other elements in this game. Little Mac has INSANELY good neutral tools. But I don't find him to be a very stellar character.

Lastly I find airspeed not to be nearly as important as a strong moveset. Brawl was littered with high mobility bad move characters in lower tiers (jiggs, yoshi, squrtile, falcon, sonic, lucas) while there were plenty of poor mobility good move characters in the higher tiers (IC's, Olimar, Snake, to a lesser extent D3)

The traction didn't help, but the fact that people have always been able to just dance around Luigi in every Smash game means a lot. Remember, he wasn't good in Smash 64, either, where the sliding would've actually been a boost due to the ease of shield pressure (I don't think he slides much in that one, though). High-level Melee players know that beating Luigi is mostly about knowing when to jump, because his high shorthop, floaty jumps, and poor horizontal aerial movement speed mean that he has to -really- commit when he jumps against characters with noticeably superior mobility. It's largely the same in Brawl (and probably Smash 4, but it's hard to say so early in the game); he has to catch you in order to do any real damage, so put yourself in a position where it's hardest for him to trick you or mix you up. I have a lot of experience against BigLou, have played Boss a couple times in Brawl and Smash 4, and MCPeePants is now our resident Luigi main in Smash 4. That approach to the matchup has always worked really well for me, and it seems to work on paper and in practice.

Akuma's teleport lasts for about a full second and just puts you very far from the opponent. The point of my Blanka-command-dash-but-invincible was largely the fact that it could very easily turn situations where you're being pressured into situations where Blanka could pressure you and have frame advantage just because the opponent picked a move that would be a premier spacing tool in any other matchup. Akuma teleport just puts you on the opposite side of the screen and resets you at full-screen neutral. The made-up command dash I'm talking about has better frame data than a great deal of moves, is hard to react to unless you're just waiting for it, and only loses on start-up to very fast tools, such as Jabs. All of that is on top of the fact that you still have to otherwise fight him like a normal character, with backdash and invincible special moves and such. You end up having to give an awful lot of respect to this command dash, making players naturally gravitate to the characters who don't get their main tools shafted and turned around on them by it.

Little Mac's actually really lacking in a lot of neutral stuff (though what he has is incredible, piece-by-piece). His grab is terrible even if you roll-cancel grab it because of its slow startup and abysmal grab-box, his aerials are tiny and don't threaten anyone (rendering his shorthop game in neutral pretty bad), and he has one of the worst initial dashes in the series, comparable to Brawl Falcon, meaning he can't use it to get around and is largely forced to merely walk in mid-range. He's forced to Jab or Up-B in most up-close situations he wants to go offensive in, and while D-Tilt and F-Tilt are often hard to get in on, they don't really do a lot of damage by themselves. His saving grace, IMO, is (surprise!) his incredible roll, which enhances his pokes a great deal because of the distance he covers and general speed of the option (and the speed of his poking options). The threat of those options deters people from trying to really go in or attempting to play footsies, allowing your options to work more often.

It's worth noting that your list of "slow-mobility-good-moves" excel at controlling others' movement. They are able to say, "No, this is my space, you can't do what you want to in my space," which is a big part of the success of Falco and Peach in Melee, despite them lacking in mobility in a game where mobility is king most of all. I would be a fool to deny that having good moves in general is a great advantage, but I don't think the distinction is as easy to say good moves and bad moves. Pokémon Trainer had some absolutely ridiculous moves but couldn't reliably get to opponents who wanted to abuse invincibility frames. Even if he could make himself pretty safe, he wasn't accomplishing anything but getting fatigued doing that.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well I guess the point I had with that is it isnt because disjointed range and projectiles were strong tools against spot dodge, its because they were strong tools against everything. Kind of an occam's razor sort of deal. Spot dodging is still a mix-up, but if I abuse it in neutral virtually every character has a tool for dealing with this that will win everytime (either these tools mentioned or more likely a long lasting or multi-hit move). But constant use of bananas, pikmin, and lazers were a big part of the metagame, and spacing out opponents with MK's and Marths fair or dtilt (ZSS dsmash/side-b) in neutral was as well. Even if we look at matchups where these tools didnt exist you wont see spot dodge used in the same way these tools were.

The game wasnt degenerative to timeouts so the good characters had tools around these with a good read, but it did slow down the pace (which was fine by me for what it was, I understand others wouldnt enjoy this) and invalidated several characters (definitely not cool).

I dont want you to think Im just spouting BS so I searched "tyrant larry" in youtube and picked the first video. Old one so feel free to take it with a grain of salt, but I think it illustrates swords/projectiles as the go to in neutral while spot dodge turned into the panic option (which was good but still punishable).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9LBpRcT1NY

I agree the reward you could receive from a spot dodge vs what you got from punishing it definitely wasnt fair which I feel is the biggest issue with it. Spot dodge was a key part of my gameplay in Brawl so I've spent a long time taking apart its strengths and weaknesses.

Jigglypuff does seem to have it hard thanks to her poor ground game, I cant even think of anyone with worse tools on the ground besides maybe zelda. I would think her best option is to corner the opponent, but then again she should be better at this then most thanks to her strong air game/wall. If Im wrong and shes not strong in the air then I dont know what to say about that character.

Regarding melee it depends on what character youre talking about. Fox, Falco, and Peach have true shield pressure so you dont even have to wait for a mistake, or rather even dumb things like shielding or jumping are considered "mistakes" for one character (see: smash 64 when its like that for both) which is what provides them more opportunities. It's quick but it makes approaching with them shallow compared to other characters in the game (except against marth who has his own powerful mechanic). If you removed these characters youd see a very familiar neutral game.

Tangential but approaching fox and falco is a nightmare, every other high/top tier has to generally play on defense and hope the opponent approaches but they dont even need to especially fox.

I only watched the first two minutes 3 minutes of the match so tell me if Im missing something. Clearly diddy has some strong tools to fight rolling and jtails chose not to use them, instead choosing an option that roll is supposed to beat (side-b). Dash attack, peanut pop gun, and banana are 3 simple things I can think of off the top of my head that wouldve been superior options (projectiles and dash attack as I mentioned previously). Watching him lose 3 exchanges picking the same side-b option 3 times in a row was tragic.

The thing about "abusing" spotdodges in neutral is that some of the good characters' other tools were so dangerous/covered so many options that you were forced to respect them instead of actively trying to punish spotdodges, which allows you to get away with a lot more spotdodges. Many of the bad Brawl characters have adequate tools to at least compete with the good characters but cannot do so without leaving themselves open to "random" spotdodges. Smart players know that they can throw in spotdodge into their close-range game after things pokes that slightly stagger the opponent, since many offensive tools whiff and give the spotdodge user massive frame advantage in that case. This is way more effective against "bad" characters because their spacing tools generally aren't nearly so fast/safe. It's basically a traditional Counter with almost no cooldown (Invincible frames 2-20/22 in a world where Falco's F-Tilt animation is 28 frames? Are you kidding me?), the inability to grab the user, and the payoff of having someone attempt to hit you being whatever you want. The desire to do most moves becomes significantly smaller as a result, even in matchups where you don't get punished hard for whiffing. I think it's a real problem and the main reason there is the significant gap between good and bad characters.

It's the "invalidated several characters" part that I have a problem with. Again, there are many characters who would have been perfectly usable if not for the great ease of spotdodges turning otherwise-good spacing tools into unreliable pokes that the potential use of put you in extremely common 50/50 scenarios where really bad things happen if the opponent decided he wanted to spotdodge at the same time (or, worse still, immediately beforehand). Sure, it's just how the game played out and there's nobody to blame for that, but it is extremely disappointing for those who saw great potential and depth elsewhere.

It's the risk/reward skew that defines the good characters, though, I think. They're either really good at forcing low-risk-moderate-reward scenarios or have moderate-risk-obscene-reward that makes those risks pay off well enough to justify using them. As such, they're able to roll the dice when they need to, whereas bad characters don't have that luxury, so a piece of the close-range RPS-ish element often doesn't exist for them.

Smash 4 Jigglypuff has a great aerial game once you get someone staggered but otherwise isn't all that great. Fast characters can shield her aerials and punish in many cases, and she doesn't have much disjoint, so you trade in air-to-air situations often, which is generally a bad thing for her. She has an incredible edgeguarding game and she can juggle reasonably well, but her lacking ability to get something started is a huuuuuge weakness for her. Her lacking mobility overall and having few ways to pressure characters to do much but shield, OoS option, or roll back to true neutral prevents her from being a viable character in the long run, IMO.

In Melee, while you're right that those characters can safely pressure people's defenses and don't have to wait for people to mess up, I'm still pretty confident that waiting for people to mess up is still the best strategy, and often the purpose of the former. Either way, it's still largely "Dashdancing: The Game" in most cases, especially for good characters against bad characters (of which there are many in Melee!).

It's worth noting that the Popgun doesn't really accomplish much of anything against most characters, and that Dash Attack has many of the pitfalls that Forward-B has (while having its own strengths, too). They do change it up later in the set, but the rolling is still just as obnoxious throughout. Would you just say that they need to experiment with their close-range and mid-range tools more in order to stop them from rolling with no repercussion? I feel like the mere threat is often as dangerous as the option itself, which is why it gets so much respect. It -is- pretty variable, with invincibility in forward movement, backward movement, and "just hanging out," on top of the regular spacing tools you have to respect.

 

[TTTTTsd]

*gigantic snip*

I'm no Jiggs main so this suggestion might seem heavy handed but it's out of friendliness. I understand your thoughts about Jiggs struggling and I agree with them, so the best I can suggest is just scaring people into making mistakes via bluffing. I feel like that might be one of the better options for a character like Jigglypuff, might not be viable at all levels of play but I could see it working if you work that psychology really well. For a character like Jigglypuff I think it's especially important and since I play Ganon whose only real roll punishes are Choke, Wiz kick and Dash attack, I sort of understand the feeling of having not a lot or so little. I do think most of the characters I play do have reliable options to cover rolls (mainly dash attacks, Doc and Ganon both, I sub Luigi and he has a fireball and his dash attack is way more reliable)

But I totally understand your point and it's all valid, but I am a fan of the idea that if you break your opponent's mind it could totally be feasible.

 

[Judo777]

The traction didn't help, but the fact that people have always been able to just dance around Luigi in every Smash game means a lot. Remember, he wasn't good in Smash 64, either, where the sliding would've actually been a boost due to the ease of shield pressure (I don't think he slides much in that one, though). High-level Melee players know that beating Luigi is mostly about knowing when to jump, because his high shorthop, floaty jumps, and poor horizontal aerial movement speed mean that he has to -really- commit when he jumps against characters with noticeably superior mobility. It's largely the same in Brawl (and probably Smash 4, but it's hard to say so early in the game); he has to catch you in order to do any real damage, so put yourself in a position where it's hardest for him to trick you or mix you up. I have a lot of experience against BigLou, have played Boss a couple times in Brawl and Smash 4, and MCPeePants is now our resident Luigi main in Smash 4. That approach to the matchup has always worked really well for me, and it seems to work on paper and in practice.

Akuma's teleport lasts for about a full second and just puts you very far from the opponent. The point of my Blanka-command-dash-but-invincible was largely the fact that it could very easily turn situations where you're being pressured into situations where Blanka could pressure you and have frame advantage just because the opponent picked a move that would be a premier spacing tool in any other matchup. Akuma teleport just puts you on the opposite side of the screen and resets you at full-screen neutral. The made-up command dash I'm talking about has better frame data than a great deal of moves, is hard to react to unless you're just waiting for it, and only loses on start-up to very fast tools, such as Jabs. All of that is on top of the fact that you still have to otherwise fight him like a normal character, with backdash and invincible special moves and such. You end up having to give an awful lot of respect to this command dash, making players naturally gravitate to the characters who don't get their main tools shafted and turned around on them by it.

Little Mac's actually really lacking in a lot of neutral stuff (though what he has is incredible, piece-by-piece). His grab is terrible even if you roll-cancel grab it because of its slow startup and abysmal grab-box, his aerials are tiny and don't threaten anyone (rendering his shorthop game in neutral pretty bad), and he has one of the worst initial dashes in the series, comparable to Brawl Falcon, meaning he can't use it to get around and is largely forced to merely walk in mid-range. He's forced to Jab or Up-B in most up-close situations he wants to go offensive in, and while D-Tilt and F-Tilt are often hard to get in on, they don't really do a lot of damage by themselves. His saving grace, IMO, is (surprise!) his incredible roll, which enhances his pokes a great deal because of the distance he covers and general speed of the option (and the speed of his poking options). The threat of those options deters people from trying to really go in or attempting to play footsies, allowing your options to work more often.

It's worth noting that your list of "slow-mobility-good-moves" excel at controlling others' movement. They are able to say, "No, this is my space, you can't do what you want to in my space," which is a big part of the success of Falco and Peach in Melee, despite them lacking in mobility in a game where mobility is king most of all. I would be a fool to deny that having good moves in general is a great advantage, but I don't think the distinction is as easy to say good moves and bad moves. Pokémon Trainer had some absolutely ridiculous moves but couldn't reliably get to opponents who wanted to abuse invincibility frames. Even if he could make himself pretty safe, he wasn't accomplishing anything but getting fatigued doing that.

No i agree that Luigi is bad mostly because of his mobility, but also due to his lack of disjoints. Luigi has pretty good moves, but no THAT good because they don't control space.

I don't believe roll is faster than most any characters basic pressure options, its not faster than almost anyones tilts to my knowledge or jabs. It only allows you to turn the tables on poorly timed smashes and like tether grabs. It also not faster than most aerials.

Little macs dash is a good point. However his walk is not that bad. His grab is perfectly fine IMO. The real problem with his grab is that he can't get anything off his grab due to his poor airgame. That's my main argument for mac not being that good. He is GREAT at the neutral game. Problem is winning the neutral game isn't very rewarding for him. Every hit does damage then resets. So he has to win the neutral game about 10 more times than you do to take a stock. Little mac gets a hit in, then you reset and he gets to try again. It reminds me a little bit of grounded fox lasers. It is impossible to not get hit by grounded fox lasers getting spammed across FD. But who cares, Ill take a few lasers and get a big hit (this comparison is only for grounded fox lasers and sh ones were actually really good in brawl), little mac probably will hit me more than I hit him, but my hits are worth more. Everyone of my hits can lead to taking a stock, none of his do until you are above like 80.

At the last point I would argue that "good moves" ARE the ones that control space. Unless there is just something that hits like a truck and is ridiculously fast (or an easy way to be landed) I can think of few moves that are considered good that don't control space well. And even then you can make an argument for that move controlling space through fear (I'm not gonna stand next to Mac with a KO punch so its controlling space very well). Because IMO the three important qualities a move has is how well it controls space, how much damage it does (knockback included), and how easy it is to land.

 

[Jtails]

Well I guess the point I had with that is it isnt because disjointed range and projectiles were strong tools against spot dodge, its because they were strong tools against everything. Kind of an occam's razor sort of deal. Spot dodging is still a mix-up, but if I abuse it in neutral virtually every character has a tool for dealing with this that will win everytime (either these tools mentioned or more likely a long lasting or multi-hit move). But constant use of bananas, pikmin, and lazers were a big part of the metagame, and spacing out opponents with MK's and Marths fair or dtilt (ZSS dsmash/side-b) in neutral was as well. Even if we look at matchups where these tools didnt exist you wont see spot dodge used in the same way these tools were.

The game wasnt degenerative to timeouts so the good characters had tools around these with a good read, but it did slow down the pace (which was fine by me for what it was, I understand others wouldnt enjoy this) and invalidated several characters (definitely not cool).

I dont want you to think Im just spouting BS so I searched "tyrant larry" in youtube and picked the first video. Old one so feel free to take it with a grain of salt, but I think it illustrates swords/projectiles as the go to in neutral while spot dodge turned into the panic option (which was good but still punishable).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9LBpRcT1NY

I agree the reward you could receive from a spot dodge vs what you got from punishing it definitely wasnt fair which I feel is the biggest issue with it. Spot dodge was a key part of my gameplay in Brawl so I've spent a long time taking apart its strengths and weaknesses.

Jigglypuff does seem to have it hard thanks to her poor ground game, I cant even think of anyone with worse tools on the ground besides maybe zelda. I would think her best option is to corner the opponent, but then again she should be better at this then most thanks to her strong air game/wall. If Im wrong and shes not strong in the air then I dont know what to say about that character.

Regarding melee it depends on what character youre talking about. Fox, Falco, and Peach have true shield pressure so you dont even have to wait for a mistake, or rather even dumb things like shielding or jumping are considered "mistakes" for one character (see: smash 64 when its like that for both) which is what provides them more opportunities. It's quick but it makes approaching with them shallow compared to other characters in the game (except against marth who has his own powerful mechanic). If you removed these characters youd see a very familiar neutral game.

Tangential but approaching fox and falco is a nightmare, every other high/top tier has to generally play on defense and hope the opponent approaches but they dont even need to especially fox.

I only watched the first two minutes 3 minutes of the match so tell me if Im missing something. Clearly diddy has some strong tools to fight rolling and jtails chose not to use them, instead choosing an option that roll is supposed to beat (side-b). Dash attack, peanut pop gun, and banana are 3 simple things I can think of off the top of my head that wouldve been superior options (projectiles and dash attack as I mentioned previously). Watching him lose 3 exchanges picking the same side-b option 3 times in a row was tragic.

I agree 100% While I was playing, I went a bit into auto-pilot.. and re-watching the sets was also tragic to me, I was shouting at myself like "come on.. you know better than that"

There was a large crowd behind me shouting and hyping up the matches, which might have had to do with my poor play. I agree that I played that set poorly. and I will do way better next time that's a promise! I revise my play and improve my faults, so please expect better from me in the future.

 

[Tagxy]

@ Jtails Sorry I didnt expect you to be here reading this I worded that a bit harshly. I have a lot of respect for the way you play and dont doubt youll make improvements as needed

@ TheReflexWonder I can see other overwhelming mechanics making spot dodge harder to deal with. I think at this point we disagree on how much each attribute played a roll in character dominance. I believe if spot dodges were toned down or removed youd still have the same dominant top tiers with their existing tools, whereas a game that tones down overpowering qualities (projectiles, long swords, etc.) and levels the rewards between succeeding and failing in a spot dodge exchange is sufficient and allows for spot dodge use in creative ways without abuse. [FTR while I understand the reward is part of what separates good from bad characters, I feel it still mitigates the issue without detriment to aim for equal rewards particularly for such a common mechanic]. Im assuming you feel spot dodges were the primary issue with balance, and that without them (or if they were severely toned down) most of the cast would be capable of navigating around the powerful tools the better characters had. I think the latter part of that point is what I disagree with most since most of those tools seemed rather ridiculous (bananas, pikmin, and MK in particular, how does anyone deal with that even without spot dodge?), but theres no real way to test these theories.

Popgun doesnt have the greatest reward but on top of the free and safe damage it forces the opponent to lose the space they gave up, and dash attack I feel is less of a commitment then monkey flip on start-up, once the move is out its obviously quite a commitment. It covers the ground better but perhaps thats what you meant by having its own strengths, I feel this quality is why something like falcon side b beats rolls comparatively better then monkey flip.

My overall view on rolls is similar to spot dodges, I think its cool when they can be used in smart fun ways (though I dont think they will be as prolific as people seem to think). It was awesome to see MK's use their forward rolls intelligently in Brawl (though quite unfair since only MK could do it). However Im guessing this isnt your issue correct? Youre more worried about the balance implications, and that while its a common tool not every character will be capable of handling them when abused I assume. To early to really say how things will play out so Im not going to say I got the answer, however when I look at it in theory:

- compared to spot dodges rolls dont flow as smoothly with spacing tools and the rest of a players kit the way spot dodges do making it easier to deal with both at the same time for many reasons (i.e. set distance makes its spacing obvious, and less then ideal for the roller when trying to follow up from a roll) and makes them less threatening.
-They also dont provide huge rewards consistently, while a punished roll usually provides a decent reward.
- With massive increases in burst movement for smash 4 the latter part is particularly true. On a general level dash attacks were massively buffed in smash 4 along with ground speed, even big characters like bowser have them now and many of them will even kill.
-Many characters also have specific punishes (its not just a few). Most of the obvious ones involve other forms of burst movement (falcon and the pits side-b frequently use rolls to land kills, charizards flare blitz, etc.). Projectiles while nerfed are pretty good at controlling the space for rolls as well. These along with other character specific tools that have unique uses, watching will destroy rolls and shields with ground pound was hilarious at 'The Come Up', which indicates reason to believe theres others we have yet to find.

Smart rolling is still a great mix-up and its still probably the go to panic option to escape pressure, but its risky.

 

[Machii]

Also, punish rolls with tilts not smashs. They leave you less vulnerable and have a better chance of connecting. Honestly I feel rolls are not overrated as much as smash attacks are. Unless you land a smash you are open to punishment almost always.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Just gonna tag @ TheReflexWonder since he sparked my interest in the actual alteration of rolls with ACTUAL PRODUCTIVE discussion, and I'm gonna say while I'm fine with rolls as is, I wouldn't mind a soft nerf, maybe make em vulnerable for an extra 5-7 frames. Seems small on paper but I think it would be a vast enough change but not completely invalidating.

I think they deserve to be an actual burst defensive mechanic that can serve their purpose properly as opposed to being punish fodder, so time will tell.

 

[DarkDream]

Well by "non-invul airdash" I mean the equivalent of a Melee air dodge.

Dodges in this game, at least in the air, are fundamentally more balanced because you get 22 frames of landing lag, you can cancel it if you do it right but that means you have to do it at the beginning of a shorthop meaning it's kind of linear. Really it's just that you have to actually gamble when dodging into the ground and I think that's perfectly okay. It also lets characters with virtually no recovery mixups add one if they're smart, and it's not incredibly abusable in that regard (all opinion but yeah).

My problem with air-dodging in Melee isn't what it leads to, it's that I find it's very rarely used for its purpose and that it doesn't really...well, help that much. Sure you get invul but you're made immediately helpless in a game like Melee where aerials are really really good. But again, unintended meta etc.

I don't disagree about DD and/or WDing but, I'd rather the latter be implemented more...smoothly.

But hey, so far I'm enjoying the game!

Why not a hybrid air dodge? Neutral dodge in air gives you regular smash4 air dodge while holding a direction gives you a melee-esque air dodge that doesn't put you in helpless but has very little invincibility frames?

Maybe even make it so that you get 1 air dodge per jump so you can't get spazzy with it. Gives us back wave dashing while keeping what we already got.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

One airdodge per jump would be a great addition to commitment that I would wholeheartedly condone.

 

[Spak]

Why not a hybrid air dodge? Neutral dodge in air gives you regular smash4 air dodge while holding a direction gives you a melee-esque air dodge that doesn't put you in helpless but has very little invincibility frames?

Maybe even make it so that you get 1 air dodge per jump so you can't get spazzy with it. Gives us back wave dashing while keeping what we already got.

If they were given more than one airdodge per jump and the Melee airdodge, they could airdodge their way back on the stage, so that would be a necessary addition.

 

[TTTTTsd]

One airdodge per jump would be a great addition to commitment that I would wholeheartedly condone.

I would be perfectly fine with this too TBH. You don't have to go helpless but one airdodge in a jump + landing lag if you do it too low would make it a lot better. It would still functionally aid a lot of characters but make the trap game even more real.

There's not a lot of mechanical tweaks I'd make to this game, it's SOOOO close to being perfect, but this would be one of them.

 

[DarkDream]

Rolls just need more commitment behind them. Most fighting games make rolls vulnerable to grabs, but doing that would screw things up worse for those who can barely move around as is.

I kind of wish that in place of rolls dashing was a cancel-able burst movement option that you couldn't cancel into shield but didn't have invincibility. It could basically be the applications of a wavedash without the complication of activation, enabling newbie friendliness, while not allowing it to be abused into itself.

 

[otter]

Rolls just need more commitment behind them. Most fighting games make rolls vulnerable to grabs, but doing that would screw things up worse for those who can barely move around as is.

I kind of wish that in place of rolls dashing was a cancel-able burst movement option that you couldn't cancel into shield but didn't have invincibility. It could basically be the applications of a wavedash without the complication of activation, enabling newbie friendliness, while not allowing it to be abused into itself.

I think that's called a dash.

 

[makemesmellbad]

The problem a lot of people have with rolling isn't the roll itself, actually. I speak for a large majority of people (myself included) when I say that Smash players can be extremely impatient when fighting "campers" or "turtles".
Though annoying, it's essentially a character utilizing their tools in order to zone out the other player and play at a safe range away. Nobody likes a camper in Call of Duty, but it's a different story in Smash. In Smash, you have so many more options than you do looking down a corridor hoping your AK is aiming at the right corner when you walk in. Instead of checking your corners, Smash makes you require the tools and fundamentals to throw yourself in that corner and beat the wall with all of your might, hoping that the opponent is there. It's called "reading".
No, it's not easy, and no, it doesn't work all of the time. That's why when you play against someone who plays campy, you have to play patiently. Wait until it's safe for you to get at them, and if they escape, don't chase them too much, because they will try to punish you. Instead, take note of what they do. Do they sit in shield for a second or two then start rolling while you stare blankly at them? Do they immediately short hop away, throw a projectile, and attempt to make a dash for the other side of the stage? Whatever they do, pick up on their options--especially their go-to options.
Once you have a general idea of their retreats, now comes the reading. Frame data aside, almost every character has a dash attack, d-smash, tilt, or aerial that can cover a roll. If you miss the timing, then you need to figure out how the hitbox for that attack works. Keep in mind you can QDA by tapping the control stick to dash and inputting down on the C-stick for an instantaneous zone breaker or roll catch. If your character doesn't have a good dash attack for reading rolls, try an aerial, then your tilts, and only as a last resort, use a d-smash. You don't want to be punished too hard for missing your own punish, so only use d-smash to catch rolls once you're totally comfy and cozy knowing roll timings.
As long as you focus on getting to know your opponent's habits, punishing then only becomes knowing not how to punish, but when. You may want to watch MySmashCorner's Roll Tiers video on YouTube for a visual idea of what rolls require the most precise punishment timings if you don't wanna take it too deeply into Training Mode. Just let me know if you want me to link it in this thread.

 

[etecoon]

The rolls can definitely be a problem. I fought a few characters vs Marth who were able to roll through my preemptive reverse forward smash. They started from in front of me, I started charging a forward smash in the opposite direction, I saw his roll animation, I let go of the forward smash and he still rolled away from it.

As Gannon one of his only redeeming qualities in brawl was his ability to choke loop people who continuously roll after the choke. Not only does this straight not work on some characters, he can't even get the choke on reaction to standard rolls. People have just straight rolled again out of the range of his choke.

The only characters I was able to punish roll with was mega man, and even then that's only sometimes.

The roll needs a cool down time just like grabs have for another roll or shield, or make the shield weaker with each roll or something. I'm down with acting out of rolls quickly but not into more defensive movements like rolling and dodging. It makes some matches just painful.

I've done no frame data research to back this up but the other side of that in my observation is that charge smashes seem to release slower on average than they did in Brawl, so charging a smash in anticipation of one action like a cross roll often winds up requiring a read on the timing where before it was reactionary

The startup time for Ganon's choke, wizfoot, and poor mobility are a lot of why I've spent less and less time playing him. I'm not sold on him being a solid "read based character" when you try to cover options that haven't even been executed yet and your opponent still easily winds up with frame advantages.

MK's rolls from Brawl are actually a good model, make rolling in a high risk high reward thing that is more reading than pure reaction, make rolling away punishable on reaction if you weren't already committed. Double rolling shouldn't be as good an option as it sometimes is in this game

 

[Judo777]

I've done no frame data research to back this up but the other side of that in my observation is that charge smashes seem to release slower on average than they did in Brawl, so charging a smash in anticipation of one action like a cross roll often winds up requiring a read on the timing where before it was reactionary

The startup time for Ganon's choke, wizfoot, and poor mobility are a lot of why I've spent less and less time playing him. I'm not sold on him being a solid "read based character" when you try to cover options that haven't even been executed yet and your opponent still easily winds up with frame advantages.

MK's rolls from Brawl are actually a good model, make rolling in a high risk high reward thing that is more reading than pure reaction, make rolling away punishable on reaction if you weren't already committed. Double rolling shouldn't be as good an option as it sometimes is in this game

I could be wrong, but I believe that every roll in this game, is the same as Brawl MK's I think that was stated early into the games life when the idea was first brought up. Every character has MK rolls.

 

[FooltheFlames]

Unless you're a character with a sex kick, a grounded sex kick like move, or a good spammable projectile-
dont even react to a roll up close. let them stall, and then react to what you believe they'll do after rolling

 

[Xquirtle]

As an inexperienced player, ive had a game at 1 stock a piece where I was way ahead in percent and my opponent successfully forced sudden death by roll spamming and kiting. I wouldn't go as far as calling it OP or anything, but i've certainly had situations where i cannot find a way around rolls when my opponent is refusing to commit to anything other than a roll. I'm probably just bad, but it felt like my opponent always had a low risk safe option when he isn't taking risks in an attempt to win.

 

[Gawain]

Really as time as gone by, I've found that the rolling stuff is really only an issue with some characters. In particular Mario. Mario is seriously one of the least fun matches to play in because his spots and rolls are so good combined with his aerial mobility. It's not as bad on stages with lots of platforms though.

 

[Carrill]

I found this thread on the second page and wanted to share a point. Hope this doesn't count as a necro.

So I came up with an idea. I think that the end lag of rolls should gradually increase in succession... similar to move staling. Even with rolls like Little Mac's or Rosalina's, I don't think that the start up or end lag of the initial roll is bad. For just one roll, the startup and end lag is actually pretty fair... so a system like this would reward players for using rolls sparingly.

I really hope they include a feature like that in the next Smash.

 

[Spak]

I found this thread on the second page and wanted to share a point. Hope this doesn't count as a necro.

So I came up with an idea. I think that the end lag of rolls should gradually increase in succession... similar to move staling. Even with rolls like Little Mac's or Rosalina's, I don't think that the start up or end lag of the initial roll is bad. For just one roll, the startup and end lag is actually pretty fair... so a system like this would reward players for using rolls sparingly.

I really hope they include a feature like that in the next Smash.

The main problem with this mechanic would be that it would throw off the timing of the roller quite significantly on their next move that they tried to use. I'm partial to just decreasing the amount of invincibility frames or distance the roll covers, but keep in mind that this is the opinion of a Melee player. I'd like for a lot of things to change that make the game more fluent-feeling to me.

 

[MOI-ARI]

I found this thread on the second page and wanted to share a point. Hope this doesn't count as a necro.

So I came up with an idea. I think that the end lag of rolls should gradually increase in succession... similar to move staling. Even with rolls like Little Mac's or Rosalina's, I don't think that the start up or end lag of the initial roll is bad. For just one roll, the startup and end lag is actually pretty fair... so a system like this would reward players for using rolls sparingly.

I really hope they include a feature like that in the next Smash.

lol i just read that post too! i thought it was a rather swell idea as well.

I believe i read there was a mechanic in the game where using the same move too much will decrease its power, like why not apply this to rolling or general defense aspects as well?
I honestly think it would help tremendously with the way people choose to use their repetitive rolls. And even a portion of the game's meta.

 

[MrGuy]

I was just about to post a thread like this. I know you can punish dodge spammers, but there are some who actually use it and get good at it. **** pisses me off.