Rolls seem problematic in this game

[RESET Vao]

A lot of players have more self respect in their abilities than to just roll around all the time, and I'll admit I've been lamed out by a rollscrub quite a few times due to lack of chances to adapt to it. Someone mentioned earlier that rolling away from someone is hard to punish but rolling through them is more than simple to punish. Adapt to the thought process that them rolling away from you is giving up space, then advance forward towards them (or if you're camping, allow it lol). I'd much rather my opponent rolled away from a steady approach, than did something to control space or zone me out.

 

[LightLV]

using this logic anything a good player ever does is OP because they do it smart and beat you with it, kdj could probably 4 stock me with pichu. Ban pichu?

This literally makes no sense.

If they are using rolls skillfully(anticipating your moves), then they are reading you and outplaying you. It is not that rolls are broken, it is that the person you are playing is better than you or you are telegraphic. And again, yes you can punish a roll, as long as the roll is not already being used to counter you. If you FSmash and I roll behind you, then I read and punished you. There is no reason why you should be able to whiff moves safely because you made a mistake in the first place. Just like if I hit you with an anti air in any SF game, I did it either on reaction or because I had a feeling that you would jump.

Also, I could be wrong, please correct me if I am, but all of you that are telling me I am wrong, seem to be 2014's that have only played Smash4 and maybe Brawl (according to your profiles). So what credibility do you have if you are new to the series? Because right now this is what I see. People who are new to the game are complaining about a mechanic that I am not having trouble with. I try to explain to them ways to get around it, and they tell me I am wrong, regardless of how much more experience I may have with the series than them.

The video posted early shows rolls being punished. Go to 4:40 and watch as the FSmash is timed for the roll and the announcers even mention that he rolled right into it.

I dont really wanna pick this apart anymore than I have to. Just know that this all started not because I wanted to argue, but because you likened rolls in Smash 4 to jumping in Street Fighter, which tells me one of two things:

a) you dont play street fighter, or
b) ....well, you don't play street fighter.

There are nowhere close to the same, the act of reaction/punish isnt the same, the mechanics arent the same, the situations arent the same, nothing about it is the same, and no matter how many times you allude to it, or suggest I don't have enough experience in smash 4, it's still going to be a terrible analogy. It only shows that we are arguing from two very different points, and when people do stuff like compare rolling (of all things in smash 4 ) to jumping (of all things in street fighter), i doubt we'll ever see eye to eye.


....But i'm just going to try one more time so you can MAYBE understand:

Rolls are good, really good. They can be read, they can be punished too, oh ****, wow, i didn't know that, thanks for telling me.

Now that that's established, we can also establish that, MECHANICALLY, they are far tougher to punish, psychic read or no, than they've ever been before. You can't compare them to anything in street fighter because nothing in street fighter is ANYWHERE close to as forgiving as Smash4's roll.

You don't have to be "having trouble" with it to make an observation....i dont get why this is such a hard concept to grasp. I'm not talking subjectively here. You can be the best player in the world, rolls are still going to be strong as **** in smash 4. Just like no matter what, a 1-frame jump cancellable move with set knockback is going to be a great move, even if it did 1 damage.

 

[Shack]

This literally makes no sense.



I dont really wanna pick this apart anymore than I have to. Just know that this all started not because I wanted to argue, but because you likened rolls in Smash 4 to jumping in Street Fighter, which tells me one of two things:

a) you dont play street fighter, or
b) ....well, you don't play street fighter.

There are nowhere close to the same, the act of reaction/punish isnt the same, the mechanics arent the same, the situations arent the same, nothing about it is the same, and no matter how many times you allude to it, or suggest I don't have enough experience in smash 4, it's still going to be a terrible analogy. It only shows that we are arguing from two very different points, and when people do stuff like compare rolling (of all things in smash 4 ) to jumping (of all things in street fighter), i doubt we'll ever see eye to eye.


....But i'm just going to try one more time so you can MAYBE understand:

Rolls are good, really good. They can be read, they can be punished too, oh ****, wow, i didn't know that, thanks for telling me.

Now that that's established, we can also establish that, MECHANICALLY, they are far tougher to punish, psychic read or no, than they've ever been before. You can't compare them to anything in street fighter because nothing in street fighter is ANYWHERE close to as forgiving as Smash4's roll.

You don't have to be "having trouble" with it to make an observation....i dont get why this is such a hard concept to grasp. I'm not talking subjectively here. You can be the best player in the world, rolls are still going to be strong as **** in smash 4. Just like no matter what, a 1-frame jump cancellable move with set knockback is going to be a great move, even if it did 1 damage.

I do play the Street Fighter series and have since SF2. I have gone to tournaments and play with people in the competitive scene.

I will say this one more time. I never said that Rolls share the same mechanics as Jumps, that would be idiotic of me to try and claim. I am saying that Rolls, like Jumps in SF, are n00b traps. When SF4 first came out, there was nothing but Ken's and Giefs online abusing cross ups. I used to hate it and think it was over powered, then I learned how to press one button to stop them(Vega's Far S.HK). People still have trouble with them to this very day because they don't practice their anti airs. Is this technique broken? No, can it be devastating in the right hands? Yes (Akuma/Ibuki Vortex in SF4).

So back to my very first comment, learn to deal with rolls. The video "evidence" that someone posted earlier (and that I reposted) was to show how strong rolls are, yet one of the matches ends in a roll that was baited and punished with a FSmash during a tournament.

In the end, I don't care what you do and I don't need to convince you. The only people here arguing and supporting you are people who recently joined the community this year. If you have trouble with Rolls, then great for you, have fun blaming your losses on Rolls. If you think Rolls are broken, then great! Spam them and see how far you get in a tournament against a veteran who has some Anti Roll Tech.

 

[LightLV]

I do play the Street Fighter series and have since SF2. I have gone to tournaments and play with people in the competitive scene.

I will say this one more time. I never said that Rolls share the same mechanics as Jumps, that would be idiotic of me to try and claim. I am saying that Rolls, like Jumps in SF, are n00b traps. When SF4 first came out, there was nothing but Ken's and Giefs online abusing cross ups. I used to hate it and think it was over powered, then I learned how to press one button to stop them(Vega's Far S.HK). People still have trouble with them to this very day because they don't practice their anti airs. Is this technique broken? No, can it be devastating in the right hands? Yes (Akuma/Ibuki Vortex in SF4).

So back to my very first comment, learn to deal with rolls. The video "evidence" that someone posted earlier (and that I reposted) was to show how strong rolls are, yet one of the matches ends in a roll that was baited and punished with a FSmash during a tournament.

In the end, I don't care what you do and I don't need to convince you. The only people here arguing and supporting you are people who recently joined the community this year. If you have trouble with Rolls, then great for you, have fun blaming your losses on Rolls. If you think Rolls are broken, then great! Spam them and see how far you get in a tournament against a veteran who has some Anti Roll Tech.

None of this, none of this changes anything about the last 2 paragraphs in my post. Nothing.

You keep falsely thinking im complaining about rolls, i thought the last paragraph addressed that. Guess not, oh well. You're preaching to a wall. I already said, i'm not speaking subjectively.

it's like we're talking about fireballs and dragon punches, people are saying "man those are pretty strong abilities", and you jump up and scream "NO NOT REALLY, THEY'RE NOOB TRAPS MAN, THEY ARENT EVEN THAT GOOD, COUNTER X WITH Y, PUNISH BECAUSE THIS DOES -", and then the other guy is just like, "woah bro, hold up, i was just sayi-" and you keep telling him how much of a noob he is using a chess analogy. (??)

Thats what this discussion is. I don't even think anyone is disagreeing with anyone.

 

[Shack]

None of this, none of this changes anything about the last 2 paragraphs in my post. Nothing.

You keep falsely thinking im complaining about rolls, i thought the last paragraph addressed that. Guess not, oh well. You're preaching to a wall. I already said, i'm not speaking subjectively.

it's like we're talking about fireballs and dragon punches, people are saying "man those are pretty strong abilities", and you jump up and scream "NO NOT REALLY, THEY'RE NOOB TRAPS MAN, THEY ARENT EVEN THAT GOOD, COUNTER X WITH Y, PUNISH BECAUSE THIS DOES -", and then the other guy is just like, "woah bro, hold up, i was just sayi-" and you keep telling him how much of a noob he is using a chess analogy. (??)

Thats what this discussion is. I don't even think anyone is disagreeing with anyone.

Lol man, I don't even get what you are looking for. No one is disagreeing, yet you say I am wrong? You claim that I am having a panic attack and create fictional quotes to prove this belief? This really is going no where. If you have no problem with rolls, then why are you still talking to me if we agree? Shut your mouth and move a long. My whole reason for posting was in response to all of the pages and posts in this thread of people claiming that rolls are problematic. So don't try and say that no one is complaining about rolls, because I can quote at least one person on nearly every page of this thread that is doing so.

 

[RESET Vao]

I am pretty good at SF4, to refer to anologies I make comparing the games.

 

[-LzR-]

I'm not liking the way this is going. We are discussing rolls in Smash 4, how does it get so personal?

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm not liking the way this is going. We are discussing rolls in Smash 4, how does it get so personal?

That's easy. Once one side runs out of facts or is proven wrong yet in denial, personal attacks start coming out.

I'm not going to read fifteen pages of posts, but I'll put my two cents in. Rolls are manageable to deal with, but are a pain in the ass to counter online due to input lag. What I think is part of the issue is that people want to be aggressive while playing, but it's not always the best thing to do. I was playing with @Dr.Faust the other day, and he made the remark that since I had the life/stock lead, there is no reason for me to make the approach when at neutral. This makes a lot of sense as you're winning, why risk the momentum so badly when the opponent can come to you?

If the opponent is rolling to get away from you and you're at the life lead, make them come on over. If that's not the case, try to limit the space they can move in, especially if you're in the middle of the stage. A lot of roll scrubs like to roll all the way to the edge to get away. By that alone, you're at the advantage.

 

[Quillion]

That's easy. Once one side runs out of facts or is proven wrong yet in denial, personal attacks start coming out.

I'm not going to read fifteen pages of posts, but I'll put my two cents in. Rolls are manageable to deal with, but are a pain in the *** to counter online due to input lag. What I think is part of the issue is that people want to be aggressive while playing, but it's not always the best thing to do. I was playing with @Dr.Faust the other day, and he made the remark that since I had the life/stock lead, there is no reason for me to make the approach when at neutral. This makes a lot of sense as you're winning, why risk the momentum so badly when the opponent can come to you?

If the opponent is rolling to get away from you and you're at the life lead, make them come on over. If that's not the case, try to limit the space they can move in, especially if you're in the middle of the stage. A lot of roll scrubs like to roll all the way to the edge to get away. By that alone, you're at the advantage.

I just love how I am the only one to ever argued using video proof.

Everyone else one both sides here is just going "you hate it cause you suck".

 

[Nobie]

I just love how I am the only one to ever argued using video proof.

Everyone else one both sides here is just going "you hate it cause you suck".

The issue with your video evidence is you say, "Look at these matches! There's too much rolling!" But how much rolling is too much? They're certainly not doing it constantly as if that's their primary action, and as someone mentioned above, a match even ended with a roll being punished.

I don't want to bring up game comparison, but it was mentioned that "there was 5 times the amount of rolling compared to Melee," but that's also assuming that Melee's balance of offense and defense is closer to ideal, rather than merely being different. After all, fireballs are strong in SF2 because you can't air block, which dictated a lot of that offense, but in SF3 the parry mechanic means that they're not so reliable. Obviously people have one preference over the other (a lot of old school SF2 players hated SF3 mechanics), but that doesn't necessarily make for a bad game, and as Smash 4 has shown, it's still quite a dynamic competitive experience for player and viewer.

 

[TTTTTsd]

The issue with your video evidence is you say, "Look at these matches! There's too much rolling!" But how much rolling is too much? They're certainly not doing it constantly as if that's their primary action, and as someone mentioned above, a match even ended with a roll being punished.

I don't want to bring up game comparison, but it was mentioned that "there was 5 times the amount of rolling compared to Melee," but that's also assuming that Melee's balance of offense and defense is closer to ideal, rather than merely being different. After all, fireballs are strong in SF2 because you can't air block, which dictated a lot of that offense, but in SF3 the parry mechanic means that they're not so reliable. Obviously people have one preference over the other (a lot of old school SF2 players hated SF3 mechanics), but that doesn't necessarily make for a bad game, and as Smash 4 has shown, it's still quite a dynamic competitive experience for player and viewer.

I think this post best sums it up, using SF wisely as an actual comparison. I'd just like to add that fireballs are also strong in SF2 due to how fast they are and how little the recovery is, combined with how the jumping is in SF2 along with how reversals from a knocked down state are one frame in ST and SF2 in general meaning getting out of fireball traps is WAYYYY harder than in future games.

As an old school SF2 player I dislike a lot of the fundamentals being discarded away in SF3 and beyond, but the games themselves are very good. Just not for my personal tastes.

 

[RESET Vao]

There is a "correct" mindset and thought process/problem solving when it comes to competitive gaming that is developed by just playing them. I definitely think more about how to deal with things after a stint as a SF4 player, but I digress.

Rolling isn't a big deal.

 

[LancerStaff]

I just love how I am the only one to ever argued using video proof.

Everyone else one both sides here is just going "you hate it cause you suck".

MKDH. Ringin' any bells? Afraid we mighta met before.

Regardless, that isn't proof, that's videos of a few dudes rolling. Everybody would be using it if it was OP, but it isn't so it isn't. You have done nothing in that sense.

 

[Quillion]

Just sayin' guys; if you really want to settle this argument, use actual video proof, not snipe at each other back and forth.

 

[LancerStaff]

Just sayin' guys; if you really want to settle this argument, use actual video proof, not snipe at each other back and forth.

You call what you brought "proof?" The one guy lost because he rolled into a Fsmash. Besides, showing you would never convince you. You'll either have to learn, or quit playing. Win-win for me, heh.

 

[G-Sword]

at first after playing the game but only for glory i said that rolls are way too good. but now after playing numerous of matches offline im gonna have to say rolls are not that bad. definetly not as bad online. they can be punished offline pretty well

 

[GeZ]

I dont really wanna pick this apart anymore than I have to. Just know that this all started not because I wanted to argue, but because you likened rolls in Smash 4 to jumping in Street Fighter, which tells me one of two things:

a) you dont play street fighter, or
b) ....well, you don't play street fighter.

Dunno why you're still humoring this guy after this. He's using a poor comparison to make a bad point.

I do play the Street Fighter series and have since SF2. I have gone to tournaments and play with people in the competitive scene.

there was nothing but Ken's and Giefs online abusing cross ups. I used to hate it and think it was over powered,

If you played Street Fighter competitively ever that wouldn't have happened. It's an obvious lie anyway, since the way you talk about street fighter shows a really fundamental misunderstanding of its basic interactions, and the weight of interaction.

I don't want to bring up game comparison, but it was mentioned that "there was 5 times the amount of rolling compared to Melee," but that's also assuming that Melee's balance of offense and defense is closer to ideal, rather than merely being different.

I agree and disagree a lot with this post. Mixed feelings. I don't think the value system in Melee is the only one that could ever work ever for Smash, but on the flip side of that, Melee has remained the Smash game with the most competitive depth, and until it's one upped, which Smash 4 objectively isn't doing, its value system will probably be a good basis with which to judge the value and emphasis placed on mechanics.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Dunno why you're still humoring this guy after this. He's using a poor comparison to make a bad point.

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. I don't think rolling can be likened to jumping at all, in both the traditional and comparative sense. Rolling is a lot less of a commitment than jumping is, while both can be punished, jumping does NOT have invincibility frames and is primarily, from my experience, an educated offense tool and occasionally when you need to jump away, a defensive tool.

Its window of punishment is much higher to start with....

 

[Nobie]

I agree and disagree a lot with this post. Mixed feelings. I don't think the value system in Melee is the only one that could ever work ever for Smash, but on the flip side of that, Melee has remained the Smash game with the most competitive depth, and until it's one upped, which Smash 4 objectively isn't doing, its value system will probably be a good basis with which to judge the value and emphasis placed on mechanics.

I think that one of the issues when talking about Melee is that its mechanics and type of gameplay usually come together as a whole package. So, when people talk about how they want a game more like Melee, it's rarely dissected apart from maybe, "Well, we'd like more characters to be usable." Hence, we get something like Project M.

However, what if its component parts were broken down? What if, for instance, there was a Smash that had a neutral game with the movement options and strong shield pressure of Melee, but had a followup closer to Smash 4 where follow-up combos aren't as punishing and overwhelming? Would that be a better competitive game or a worse one?

 

[RESET Vao]

There is somewhat of a crossup game with Zangief splash and knee, it's pretty annoying. As for Ken he has the very ambiguous but hard to space j.hp crossups and of course the Tatsus that every scrub Ken does.

 

[Shack]

I know this will get lost in a sea of responses, but to everyone commenting on the whole jump thing, I am not saying rolls = jumps. I am saying rolls in Smash and jumps in SF are N00b Traps. N00b Traps are moves that appeal and work against beginner/less experienced/n00b players because they seem very powerful at first, but there are better/safer options. In this case it would be rolling or using a lot of dash attacks vs SHFF, Perfect Pivots, Dash Dance, Reverse Pivots, turn around jabs/tilts, etc.

If you played Street Fighter competitively ever that wouldn't have happened. It's an obvious lie anyway, since the way you talk about street fighter shows a really fundamental misunderstanding of its basic interactions, and the weight of interaction.

For real? You are going to chop up and then quote half a sentence to try and prove your point, very well knowing what the next few words were? lol
"then I learned how to press one button to stop them(Vega's Far S.HK)."

That was a far stretch man, nice try though

Just sayin' guys; if you really want to settle this argument, use actual video proof, not snipe at each other back and forth.

Your video was a good attempt, but didn't actually prove either side because the rolls got punished pretty easily causing the roller to lose the match. The only way to actually prove rolls are too strong is if all the top players abused them in tournaments, which currently is not happening. Online doesn't matter, and the random nobodies on this thread don't matter. We're all just a bunch of "Critics with no credentials". I do find it interesting though, that the people who feel rolls are manageable have been on the forums for multiple years while the 2014ers are the ones causing the biggest fuss, coincidence?

 

[GeZ]

For real? You are going to chop up and then quote half a sentence to try and prove your point, very well knowing what the next few words were? lol
"then I learned how to press one button to stop them(Vega's Far S.HK)."

That was a far stretch man, nice try though

I saw the last part. Doesn't matter. If you played Street Fighter competitively at any point, you'd know how to deal with Jump ins and cross ups. That's been basic **** since SF2.

 

[Aguki90]

I Can agree with all this.

Rolling is way too good, especially Little Mac Roll. Is less risky and sometime you can do tricks like Roll and quick turn grab!?
That really unfair.

"Insert Riding Dirty Song here"

But there a punishable in the last second of the roll. In that last second. You can grab them very easily and the most effective way. Or just Shot a large projectile, they don,t gonna see them coming.

 

[RESET Vao]

Are you implying Vega's S.hk is as good as his cr.mp?

 

[-LzR-]

With Little Mac having a ******** roll is understandable. Being such a bad character who also dies to any move with decent knockback because he doesn't have a recovery.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Do we have frame data on rolls yet? Knowing the invincibility windows would be really helpful.

 

[LancerStaff]

Do we have frame data on rolls yet? Knowing the invincibility windows would be really helpful.

A mod, not sure who, posted a topic about it in the competitive forum awhile back I believe.

 

[Shack]

I saw the last part. Doesn't matter. If you played Street Fighter competitively at any point, you'd know how to deal with Jump ins and cross ups. That's been basic **** since SF2.

Lol, I'm glad you did. And I'm glad you realized that SF4 came out in 2008 (about 6 years ago), so regardless of my skill on release, I have had 6 years to improve on that one thing that took 5 minutes to realize... It was also the first to have online capabilities which meant it was more accessible to casual players who would spam cross ups which is something I never had to go against playing competent players (please find it in your heart to forgive me). Being that it was the first to have online gameplay, it also mean it was the first time ever trying to block and react to cross ups with input lag.

Regardless, what was your point again? Oh yeah, you had none, just enjoy arguing for some reason. In case you forgot what this was about, it was about rolls and me calling them n00b traps. So please feel free to continue your attempts at insulting my knowledge or skill of SF4 on these Smash forums in order to further prove the point you don't have.

By the way, not one person has provided any evidence or information to deny my statement of rolls and dash attacks being n00b traps in this game. You're strongest arguments seem to be that I don't know what I'm talking about, yet you offer no alternative or reason as to why.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If anything, a lot of trends seem to suggest that the metagame revolves around the threat/existence of these rolls. Let's take the most recent Japanese tier list, for example--

The thing about the highest characters is that they don't mind the rolls nearly as much as other characters. They do not have to change their gameplan significantly as a result of them. Whether or not that is a problem is certainly subjective, but it's hard to argue that a character like Ike or Ganondorf can read and punish rolls anywhere near as reliably as the current top tiers. When someone rolls away from my Jigglypuff, my character is simply not fast enough to do anything but take the slight stage control. Going back to neutral when you feel uncomfortable against slow characters is always a winning move; this has always been the case for Smash.

This is a similar situation to the spotdodge/airdodge mechanics in Brawl; in top level play, spotdodges would be seamlessly used in close range because the frame data made it so that it was faster than almost any attack and provided the user with massive frame advantage. It was fast enough that you couldn't punish it on reaction while covering the premier spacing tools as well, so the game revolved around moves that could reliably space and stay safe from the spotdodges. Meta Knight had a ton of pokes that allowed him to both abuse his own invincibility and outspeed the spotdodges; Snake had huge damage output and an F-Tilt hit-confirm that outright crushed spotdodges; Olimar's Smashes, Forward-B, and silly grab meant that he didn't care; Ice Climbers' desyncs were a great defense that combined with the fact that one read meant you took a stock. Other characters were primarily bad because they had few (or no) options that could reliably deal with the top tier spacing tools on top of the spotdodge safeguard.

Diddy Kong has a banana that he can make disappear after he throws it, is completely safe to use in almost all situations, and gets him nice hit-confirm combos. He has a fast mid-range command grab to beat shields and is largely able to laugh at the standard defensive and offensive options of most opponents.

Sheik has Needles for completely safe damage and offstage harassment, a bunch of pokes with frame data that outright beat the invincibility options (F-Tilt, U-Tilt, F-Air landing lag), and is one of the best characters for trapping people with low pop-ups and such.

Yoshi has the highest horizontal aerial speed to attack and move away seamlessly, generally fast and powerful moves that have good risk/reward, and an Up-B projectile that makes him really, really difficult to approach (that can also be thrown at someone moving away).

Zero Suit Samus has a ton of mid-range tools that allow her to attack safely and set up approaches if they hit, good horizontal aerial speed and low-lag aerials, and very strong moves all around.

Lucario has unparalleled rolls, a projectile charge that can be canceled into anything he wants, a command grab that shoots a huge attack if it misses, and obscene KO power combined with the fact that he's relatively difficult to land a KO move on.

Basically, these characters don't have to adjust much to rolls; they can keep doing what they want to do. It can completely defang a lot of characters who have trouble in neutral but are really good at dealing damage when they're in an advantageous position.

 

[LancerStaff]

If anything, a lot of trends seem to suggest that the metagame revolves around the threat/existence of these rolls. Let's take the most recent Japanese tier list, for example--

The thing about the highest characters is that they don't mind the rolls nearly as much as other characters. They do not have to change their gameplan significantly as a result of them. Whether or not that is a problem is certainly subjective, but it's hard to argue that a character like Ike or Ganondorf can read and punish rolls anywhere near as reliably as the current top tiers. When someone rolls away from my Jigglypuff, my character is simply not fast enough to do anything but take the slight stage control. Going back to neutral when you feel uncomfortable against slow characters is always a winning move; this has always been the case for Smash.

This is a similar situation to the spotdodge/airdodge mechanics in Brawl; in top level play, spotdodges would be seamlessly used in close range because the frame data made it so that it was faster than almost any attack and provided the user with massive frame advantage. It was fast enough that you couldn't punish it on reaction while covering the premier spacing tools as well, so the game revolved around moves that could reliably space and stay safe from the spotdodges. Meta Knight had a ton of pokes that allowed him to both abuse his own invincibility and outspeed the spotdodges; Snake had huge damage output and an F-Tilt hit-confirm that outright crushed spotdodges; Olimar's Smashes, Forward-B, and silly grab meant that he didn't care; Ice Climbers' desyncs were a great defense that combined with the fact that one read meant you took a stock. Other characters were primarily bad because they had few (or no) options that could reliably deal with the top tier spacing tools on top of the spotdodge safeguard.

Diddy Kong has a banana that he can make disappear after he throws it, is completely safe to use in almost all situations, and gets him nice hit-confirm combos. He has a fast mid-range command grab to beat shields and is largely able to laugh at the standard defensive and offensive options of most opponents.

Sheik has Needles for completely safe damage and offstage harassment, a bunch of pokes with frame data that outright beat the invincibility options (F-Tilt, U-Tilt, F-Air landing lag), and is one of the best characters for trapping people with low pop-ups and such.

Yoshi has the highest horizontal aerial speed to attack and move away seamlessly, generally fast and powerful moves that have good risk/reward, and an Up-B projectile that makes him really, really difficult to approach (that can also be thrown at someone moving away).

Zero Suit Samus has a ton of mid-range tools that allow her to attack safely and set up approaches if they hit, good horizontal aerial speed and low-lag aerials, and very strong moves all around.

Lucario has unparalleled rolls, a projectile charge that can be canceled into anything he wants, a command grab that shoots a huge attack if it misses, and obscene KO power combined with the fact that he's relatively difficult to land a KO move on.

Basically, these characters don't have to adjust much to rolls; they can keep doing what they want to do. It can completely defang a lot of characters who have trouble in neutral but are really good at dealing damage when they're in an advantageous position.

I wouldn't say that's entirely true. Mii Brawler and Villager are, to my understanding, average when it comes to punishing rolls, and yet rank highly for no apparent reason. Wario and Ness also seem to be average at dealing with rolls, but rank about where you'd expect them to otherwise. You see Pit high, and he can definitely deal with rolls. But Dark Pit can just as well, if not better because of the faster arrows, and yet he ranks significantly lower.

Yes, how well a character can deal with rolls is taken into account, but it's far from the sole deciding factor with this tier list. Every aspect of a match is measured for this list.

And of course, the list itself is fairly dubious. It was made only a month after the patch but the night before SSBU's release. We don't even know how much Japan even uses rolls to begin with.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I wouldn't say that's entirely true. Mii Brawler and Villager are, to my understanding, average when it comes to punishing rolls, and yet rank highly for no apparent reason. Wario and Ness also seem to be average at dealing with rolls, but rank about where you'd expect them to otherwise. You see Pit high, and he can definitely deal with rolls. But Dark Pit can just as well, if not better because of the faster arrows, and yet he ranks significantly lower.

Yes, how well a character can deal with rolls is taken into account, but it's far from the sole deciding factor with this tier list. Every aspect of a match is measured for this list.

And of course, the list itself is fairly dubious. It was made only a month after the patch but the night before SSBU's release. We don't even know how much Japan even uses rolls to begin with.

I know nothing about Mii Brawler, but I never said it was about punishing rolls hard--It's about not caring about rolls, about being able to continue your normal gameplan regardless of them. If you roll against a lot of Ganon's attacks, he is left quite vulnerable, but Villager's gameplan generally succeeds more when the opponent moves away from him. His N-Air is a wonderful stop to spotdodges and rolls toward him, getting them away so he can continue his barrage of long-range stuff.

Wario's Neutral-B has significantly less endlag than in Brawl, and his gameplan largely revolves around tiny pokes that open up more, which is a common occurrence after chasing and pressuring. Rolls are a little annoying, but they don't put him at any real risk because he can always steer his aerial away. There's also the ability to use and jump off the bike for a moving projectile, which is alright in a small handful of situations.

Ness is just a giant wall of long-lasting, safe hitboxes, much like he was in Brawl. As a result, it's very difficult to get around him with a roll, and he doesn't care if you move away from him. His incredibly fast N-Air also helps with people getting into your space.

 

[Prawn]

I know nothing about Mii Brawler, but I never said it was about punishing rolls hard--It's about not caring about rolls, about being able to continue your normal gameplan regardless of them. If you roll against a lot of Ganon's attacks, he is left quite vulnerable, but Villager's gameplan generally succeeds more when the opponent moves away from him. His N-Air is a wonderful stop to spotdodges and rolls toward him, getting them away so he can continue his barrage of long-range stuff.

Wario's Neutral-B has significantly less endlag than in Brawl, and his gameplan largely revolves around tiny pokes that open up more, which is a common occurrence after chasing and pressuring. Rolls are a little annoying, but they don't put him at any real risk because he can always steer his aerial away. There's also the ability to use and jump off the bike for a moving projectile, which is alright in a small handful of situations.

Ness is just a giant wall of long-lasting, safe hitboxes, much like he was in Brawl. As a result, it's very difficult to get around him with a roll, and he doesn't care if you move away from him. His incredibly fast N-Air also helps with people getting into your space.

But are you drawing some of the conclusions to fit the argument that "characters who are better at dealing with rolls are better", couldn't it be "chataracters who are better overall are generally more capable of dealing with options like rolling"

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I suppose so, but seeing Brawl play out as it is, I find it highly suspect; there were a good number of characters that could've been real contenders if not for people peppering approaches with spotdodges to invalidate the reliable use of their otherwise-nice tools.

I know that if someone rolls away from my Jigglypuff, it is suddenly "IT SEEMS WE ARE AT AN IMPASSE," because she has no options that move quickly enough to catch average-or-better rolls, and that doesn't seem healthy for the scene, at least on a spectator's level. While I don't think that it is especially crippling to her, it certainly does take away a sense of pressure in a lot of situations, and there are many characters that have it a -lot- worse.

I think that as people get better, we'll see a lot more "dash forward -> roll backward," because people have to fear actual attacks as well as an immediate shield that could come instead of a roll backward. The rolls are probably the single biggest factor in what appears to be a defensive skew in the game as a whole (at least, to me).

 

[Prawn]

I suppose so, but seeing Brawl play out as it is, I find it highly suspect; there were a good number of characters that could've been real contenders if not for people peppering approaches with spotdodges to invalidate the reliable use of their otherwise-nice tools.

I know that if someone rolls away from my Jigglypuff, it is suddenly "IT SEEMS WE ARE AT AN IMPASSE," because she has no options that move quickly enough to catch average-or-better rolls, and that doesn't seem healthy for the scene, at least on a spectator's level. While I don't think that it is especially crippling to her, it certainly does take away a sense of pressure in a lot of situations, and there are many characters that have it a -lot- worse.

I guess only time will tell if it becomes a staple of the meta to be able to deal with rolls or anything else. I for sure find myself in situations where I know if I had a little more ground speed or a better projectile I could punish a particular roll(using d3 who is much too low on that list), so I see a little what you're saying, but like you said it's tough to tell if it will become something centralizing.


I will say I think brawls top tiers were more based of chain grabs and who could deal with them the best, moreso then spot dodges or air dodges. But that's just my knee jerk response without really thinking about it. As a brawl ICs main I can say that CGs were a bigger example of something "problematic", but of course rolls ~could~ be problematic to a lesser extent

Edit: I think this games top tier is gonna be determined by ability to get reliable kill setups and ability to gimp/not be gimped. Lots of characters rack damage like it's their job but landing kills on competent players requires sure fire kill setups and options that are somewhat easy to get off, which some characters have but most dont

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The reason the chaingrabs were a major driving factor is because the risk/reward ratio was greatly skewed in their favor. If you're an Ice Climbers player, with a dumb Nana to babysit and the worst (or close) grab range in the game, it wasn't easy to land a grab, but with most characters' spotdodge-beating tools being love taps like Meta Knight's tilts, Falco Jab/N-Air, and the like, you could afford to land 1 out of 6 grabs because while they're getting ~10% out of your misses (if that; people are often tripping over themselves [literally!] to get away from you), that one grab nets you a stock, and the desyncs made their punishes that much less likely. In Falco's case, he had a much superior close-range game and could get himself a guaranteed 60% with pressure afterward, so the trade also seems super-worth it.

Dedede wasn't a big deal as the metagame progressed because he didn't have much to land his grab with (despite his obnoxious spotdodge and grab range) on the best characters. Characters like Snake and Olimar don't really have chaingrabs to work with. Watching many high-level Brawl matches seems to make the (ab)use of spotdodges verrrry widespread. It was rolling the dice, and it often paid off, so people were stuck using the reliable stuff, and I think that's likely what's going to happen here (though I really hope it gets better, whether through greater game knowledge or a future patch).

We'll see if APEX has the neutral game often default to a boring rollfest.

 

[Prawn]

The reason the chaingrabs were a major driving factor is because the risk/reward ratio was greatly skewed in their favor. If you're an Ice Climbers player, with a dumb Nana to babysit and the worst (or close) grab range in the game, it wasn't easy to land a grab, but with most characters' spotdodge-beating tools being love taps like Meta Knight's tilts, Falco Jab/N-Air, and the like, you could afford to land 1 out of 6 grabs because while they're getting ~10% out of your misses (if that; people are often tripping over themselves [literally!] to get away from you), that one grab nets you a stock, and the desyncs made their punishes that much less likely. In Falco's case, he had a much superior close-range game and could get himself a guaranteed 60% with pressure afterward, so the trade also seems super-worth it.

Dedede wasn't a big deal as the metagame progressed because he didn't have much to land his grab with (despite his obnoxious spotdodge and grab range) on the best characters. Characters like Snake and Olimar don't really have chaingrabs to work with. Watching many high-level Brawl matches seems to make the (ab)use of spotdodges verrrry widespread. It was rolling the dice, and it often paid off, so people were stuck using the reliable stuff, and I think that's likely what's going to happen here.

Snakes nades and weight gave him a huge advantage against any and all chain grabs, Olimar camped everyone to hell and had a pivot grab range to help him play keep away(while racking up stupid amounts of damage), so even if a top tier didn't have a chaingrab I felt like the ability to counter them was just as important. I forgot about warios and falcos spot dodging. God that was awful haha

Edit: also Olimar popped out of falcos and whoever else's grabs pretty early compared to the rest of the cast

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Nah, Olimar got it as bad as most characters. He was also among the easiest to chaingrab for Ice Climbers, I believe.

That's just my theory on why the Brawl metagame went the way it did and why I suspect that these great rolls will become the new Brawl spotdodge in terms of influencing the neutral game/tier list a massive amount. I don't think there's much else I can say to convince you, but that's okay!

 

[-LzR-]

There really aren't easier or harder characters to CG. It's 90% preference. Snake and Lucas are the exception, they are hard.
For example most people find heavies to be hard to CG while I find them to be the easiest.
This didn't bring anything to the topic, but I just wanted to say it because people often say things like easy characters to CG for ICs.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The space between inputs is smaller for lighter characters in most cases, so people generally find it easier to get a rhythm going. I know I did (or you could call it placebo, I guess, but I know it felt more natural to me, as someone who didn't practice it much).

 

[Prawn]

Nah, Olimar got it as bad as most characters. He was also among the easiest to chaingrab for Ice Climbers, I believe.

That's just my theory on why the Brawl metagame went the way it did and why I suspect that these great rolls will become the new Brawl spotdodge in terms of influencing the neutral game/tier list a massive amount. I don't think there's much else I can say to convince you, but that's okay!

Ah yes and you actually have credibility which is more then I can say for the rest of the thread.

I see them patching rolls and giving everyone the same boring invincibility frames, they clearly pay attention to community feedback and there's enough people out there who struggle with rolls

Either way well all deal