Rolls seem problematic in this game

[Shataraterevar]

He standardized air dodge landing lag on all chars to 22 frames, he can standardize the dodge roll the same way in next patch

Which can fix some of the problems with rolls...

 

[Tagxy]

oh Sakurai balanced it all right.
he balanced with FFAin mind. hence why you get inconsistencies.

Besides do you really trust Sakurai to balance the roster?

Its honestly very bothersome seeing posts like this and a few others in the last page. Thoughts stated as fact without any backing or research, essentially expecting others to do all your homework for you. This forum is meant to facilitate high level discussion. While there are plenty of posters speaking from deep experience, discussion with highly experienced players, and lots of personal research; threads like this attract posters that give legit posts crap while taking hardline stances, tossing all useful information out as it acts as a quick outlet when theyve lost a set on wifi to determine rolls/little mac/some random problem are dumb. Im glad to hear anyone's thoughts or legit complaints so long as theyre well reasoned and supported in explaining their personal understanding. In this case however a simple 5 second google search could bring your knowledge up to speed:
https://www.google.com/#q=sakurai balance

Sakurai: So in regards to overall game balance, what we do is we use sort of this monitor playtest where we set up players of a certain level to play highly-skilled players in an arena. For example, an arena just with maybe a single platform and we watch them fight over a certain amount of time and view video from that and decide at a high level how to make adjustments to that for the base.

Smash Bros. is all about position—where you're at and what kind of power the player has based on where their position is at. So it's something that players have to take advantage of. But if suddenly you create sort of a testing scenario where the position balance is removed from the equation, and you sort of start to see where, when you remove that one factor from the game, you're basically testing two players in the same circumstances, that's when you can really start to see the differences and balance between characters.

As far as the overall balance, if you were to take that and then put it in a flat playing field and have characters fight, you get a situation where suddenly, it's no different than any other fighting game. We realized that having different positioning, there's a lot of factors that occur in vertical elements of the stages. Once you get the core balance, then you can stretch out from there and realize, well, players don't want to play a normal flat fighting game: they want the special peculiarities of Smash Bros., where there's a lot of verticality, where the collision detection is a little broader. And the overall balancing goes factoring in those vertical elements as well.

Long post

I would say theres two things that arent considered in this perception. The first is the subject at hand for the last page, that shielding and options out of shield are not inherently defensive. The second is that rolls are still not as good as other options that exist from shield, some of which you missed (i.e. jumping out of shield and all the options it provides I would say wins the award for best in each smash game).

 

[Nobie]

The whole thing about whether rolling is more or less of a commitment or whatever has to do with how many options you ahve available.

Imagine that rolling is like a full-body armor you can activate at any moment, only it leaves a part of your midsection exposed every time. It's mostly impervious and it's not like the person has to use it, but that weakness (traveling a set distance, some vulnerability frames) will always be there.

Now imagine that walking is like going around with a small shield. It doesn't cover as much of your body as the armor at once, but the shield can cover any part of your body in a given moment, including the part that the armor can't cover. This is the versatility of moving by walking rather than rolling, as it gives you access to more of your moves that you can choose at any given time to match the situation you're in.

Essentially, even though rolls are really good, the idea is that once you see a roll start, you know where it'll end up even if you're unable to punish it every time. It's predictable in that respect. Something like walking or even shielding means you don't have all that crazy invincibility to work with, but you're also not committing to anything and so you remain something of a mystery, which gives power in a game of reads.

This is partly why wavedashing is so powerful. It gives the moment power of a roll (especially for some characters) without the commitment of a roll.

 

[MuraRengan]

I would say theres two things that arent considered in this perception. The first is the subject at hand for the last page, that shielding and options out of shield are not inherently defensive. The second is that rolls are still not as good as other options that exist from shield, some of which you missed (i.e. jumping out of shield and all the options it provides I would say wins the award for best in each smash game).

I'm aware that Sakurai doesn't consider those kind of things. I never expected the devs to intentionally make the game with deep focus on the competitive aspects. I was just talking about the game as it is, not blaming Sakurai for making it that way.

Also I intentionally omitted jumping out of shield because I felt it would unnecessarily make the post longer (since jump OoS options in this game are only really good for defense.) What OoS options did I miss that you think are better than rolling?

 

[Shirma Akayaku]

I usually don't see high-level tournament players roll too often lately (since that was mainly a staple in previous games), but I think it'll only get you so far in tournaments depending on your playstyle. If you play an extremely commanding neutral game like Dabuz with Rosalina & Luma, you are bound to go really high up. The same could apply to a defensive and offensive player, but maybe to slightly lesser extent. Since you don't over-commit in a neutral playstyle, I think you're less likely to be punished compared to an offensive or defensive playstyle (I could be wrong as time passes). However, I've see many players make it up to a winners bracket and they tend to roll a lot (it gets tiring to watch actually), but high level players try to punish on that some of the time. Only some (which is very few in my eyes).

I think rolls could be standardized like air dodges, but I'd prefer more ending lag on individual characters rather than making it feel stale on everyone. If it were standardized, it would be like a fighting game (Blazblue, MvC, etc) where everyone can block (roll) within the same frame speed, but characters who are generally faster might get to punish sooner. I wouldn't want the game to generally favor faster characters.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

oh Sakurai balanced it all right.
he balanced with FFAin mind. hence why you get inconsistencies.

Besides do you really trust Sakurai to balance the roster?

The game is made for both kinds of play. Given the balance we know they changed in 1.0.4 they care more about comp players than before.

I honestly trust Sakurai and his team than the PM team on the regard.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

Its honestly very bothersome seeing posts like this and a few others in the last page. Thoughts stated as fact without any backing or research, essentially expecting others to do all your homework for you. This forum is meant to facilitate high level discussion. While there are plenty of posters speaking from deep experience, discussion with highly experienced players, and lots of personal research; threads like this attract posters that give legit posts crap while taking hardline stances, tossing all useful information out as it acts as a quick outlet when theyve lost a set on wifi to determine rolls/little mac/some random problem are dumb. Im glad to hear anyone's thoughts or legit complaints so long as theyre well reasoned and supported in explaining their personal understanding. In this case however a simple 5 second google search could bring your knowledge up to speed:
https://www.google.com/#q=sakurai balance



I would say theres two things that arent considered in this perception. The first is the subject at hand for the last page, that shielding and options out of shield are not inherently defensive. The second is that rolls are still not as good as other options that exist from shield, some of which you missed (i.e. jumping out of shield and all the options it provides I would say wins the award for best in each smash game).

Except that personal experience is also valuable information...
And shielding is defensive like 80 % of the time.

EDIT: Explain to me why you think what you believe about shields.

 

[Madlollipop]

The biggest problem I personally have with shields is how hard it is to punish some of the cast with other parts of the cast.
I enjoy playing with ganon and thought of maining him after reading that the cast would be a lot more balanced now.
Then I got really discouraged when I played against a rolling littlemac who basicly rolled forth and back on FD using dash attacks and counters. Due to gow fast his rolls were he could react to my attacks, but I have to predict his rolls, that being said, even if I did a hard read I still did not get a punish, lets say he rolled back and I followed with a dash attack, where he rolled behind me and dash attacked me in my back as a mixup.
his rolls were faster than me running, which means while Im running, not being anle to do any defensive actions he is faster, have invisiblillity frames, more options both offesive options and defensive options.
sure you could say that ganon is simply horrible and its a bad example, but having a character which cant touch another one isnt good for the game really. Regardless of how bad a character is. My two cents.

 

[Nobie]

The biggest problem I personally have with shields is how hard it is to punish some of the cast with other parts of the cast.
I enjoy playing with ganon and thought of maining him after reading that the cast would be a lot more balanced now.
Then I got really discouraged when I played against a rolling littlemac who basicly rolled forth and back on FD using dash attacks and counters. Due to gow fast his rolls were he could react to my attacks, but I have to predict his rolls, that being said, even if I did a hard read I still did not get a punish, lets say he rolled back and I followed with a dash attack, where he rolled behind me and dash attacked me in my back as a mixup.
his rolls were faster than me running, which means while Im running, not being anle to do any defensive actions he is faster, have invisiblillity frames, more options both offesive options and defensive options.
sure you could say that ganon is simply horrible and its a bad example, but having a character which cant touch another one isnt good for the game really. Regardless of how bad a character is. My two cents.

Not to make this a matchup advice thread or anything but I think your problem wasn't necessarily that rolls are too good (though they're really good), but that you unconsciously ended up playing into Little Mac's hands.

Little Mac probably has the best rolls in the game, combined with an overall extremely powerful ground game. Ganondorf has one of the most terrible running speeds in the game. By trying to chase after Little Mac, you're playing his game and denying yours. Against even a decent Little Mac, Ganondorf will never ever win that scenario.

Instead, what you should be doing as he's running and rolling away is what someone else said above: walk. Ganondorf also walks slowly, but you're still technically approaching and closing the gap on Little Mac, and you have your full arsenal of moves at your disposal, which is a huge asset in the Little Mac matchup. If the Little Mac knows anything at all, it's that he has just as much reason to fear you as you do him, because while he has that superior speed on attack and on defense compared to slow, plodding Ganondorf, so many of Ganondorf's attacks are super gross against Litlte Mac because of how high his knockback is in general. Not only that, but it's not like Little Mac has projectiles. He has to close that gap eventually, and when he does he has to be wary that a boot to the face at 70% somewhat close to the ledge is an unpleasant experience that can very well lead to him being unable to recover. For Ganondorf, all it takes is one or two good reads to put yourself in that situation.

 

[Quillion]

Roll punishing really isn't a skill at all. It's luck. It's all about making a lucky guess because rolling is so safe; if you guess right, you get a combo in. If you guess wrong they get a combo in on you.

 

[Angry Guy of DE]

Roll punishing isn't luck based, its more about making reads on the opponent's habits or using a move that covers multiple scenarios.

A good down-smash when they are near the edge can cover a roll to the edge and towards the center of the stage.

Basic scrubs on for Glory can be read like a book easily when they rely on rolls for movement so dash attacks can catch them as they roll away from you.

 

[Nobie]

I think I finally understand why rolls are as good as they are in Smash 4, and it has to do with Sakurai's desire to level the playing field while in this case well aware that there is this competitive side to the game.

When you're new to Smash Bros. and you know enough about the game to understand the controls, what do most people do? They find out that rolls are mostly invincible, and so they roll like crazy. it becomes a "strategy" in the sense that players decide it's the best course of action 99% of the time. No matter how good a roll is, however, a sufficiently skilled player will know how far you roll, will know what attacks will best punish it, and will be able to read the opponent better. What makes things different, though, is the fact that because the rolls are better it takes more skill to punish them, which ends up narrowing the gap between a beginner and an intermediate player substantially. The intermediate player understands that rolls are strong but might not have the game sense and mastery of their own character to punish rolls, which boosts the beginner's chances of winning. The intermediate player can do the same and go on a roll fest too, but then they begin to play the beginner's game and diminish their own skill rather than trying to learn more. Most players are beginners to intermediates, it's fairly safe to say, so for most people a game of Smash Bros. becomes fairly even no matter who they face. At the same time, it leaves room for advanced and expert players to exert their superiority by being able to deal with rolls fairly handily.

 

[Quillion]

Roll punishing isn't luck based, its more about making reads on the opponent's habits or using a move that covers multiple scenarios.

A good down-smash when they are near the edge can cover a roll to the edge and towards the center of the stage.

Basic scrubs on for Glory can be read like a book easily when they rely on rolls for movement so dash attacks can catch them as they roll away from you.

And even doing a read is lucky. If you read the opponent wrong, you get punished.

Everyone who's been punishing rolls all day are just insanely lucky. There's no 100% punish for them.

 

[Prawn]

Except that personal experience is also valuable information...
And shielding is defensive like 80 % of the time.

EDIT: Explain to me why you think what you believe about shields.

Uh you technically shouldn't use personal experience in an argument like this. Especially if you're not a top level player

Roll punishing really isn't a skill at all. It's luck. It's all about making a lucky guess because rolling is so safe; if you guess right, you get a combo in. If you guess wrong they get a combo in on you.

Lol this is not true. I can't believe there are still people coming in this thread saying such stupid ****

 

[TTTTTsd]

And even doing a read is lucky. If you read the opponent wrong, you get punished.

Everyone who's been punishing rolls all day are just insanely lucky. There's no 100% punish for them.

What? If you read the opponent wrong then you ****ed up. That's not a matter of luck at all. What the hell? I need a drink. Jesus christ my ****ing head today...

 

[Prawn]

Also are people so dense to really think everytime they "read" a roll they are deserving of a hard punish?

It's called execution. You need to practice how to punish anything so many times it's second nature which none of you have done(clearly).

And even then, guess what, sometimes you make the best play and still lose. It's called variance. Go talk to a poker player about variance. Professionals only win heads up matches against "scrubby" players 55-60 percent of the time. It's about maximizing your chances to win.

Y'all are seriously the dullest people I've ever met on the internet. And that's saying a lot

Edit: also there's a difference between reading a roll and being a perfect position to punish it and just knowing that they are about to roll.

Not to mention most of these spammy players i see being complained about aren't even about "reading", it's just about manipulating them and making them roll. Lrn2smash

 

[TTTTTsd]

Did I mention it's ****ty design for any mechanic, offensive or defensive, to have something that is an 100% answer NO QUESTION 100%. As in, it can't fail, at all. At least in a game like Smash Bros. If every character had an 100% solution to rolls why the **** would that even be a mechanic? I just...oh my god.

 

[Prawn]

People crying for a rolling nerf is a testament to how soft some of the players of this game are. You all run to smashboards and ask for a patch instead of investing any reasonable amount of time improving your game.

I'd roll all over someone who was crying about it too. Seems legit.

 

[Quillion]

Did I mention it's ****ty design for any mechanic, offensive or defensive, to have something that is an 100% answer NO QUESTION 100%. As in, it can't fail, at all. At least in a game like Smash Bros. If every character had an 100% solution to rolls why the **** would that even be a mechanic? I just...oh my god.

Because defensive options need to be limited in order for it to not control the pace of the match. I'll post this video of Egoraptor describing how this is terrible design, AGAIN (the video is linked to the correct time):

Offense shouldn't be there to punish defense; defense should be there to punish offense. Melee got the balance right since the air dodge, even without wavedashing, and rolling were STILL USEFUL, just more situational. You had to use it at the right times in order to turn the game around, not constantly do it to draw out the match and wait for a mistake to punish.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Egoraptor, the king of impatient who compares 2D design philosophies to 3D games, who doesn't stop yelling and articulates mostly stupid points that come down less to bad game design and more to preference? That is not even remotely relevant to Smash or Fighting Games at all. If you wait for someone to stop rolling they're not gonna stop, just throw out a lingering hitbox or dash attack, or PREDICT IT (this one's not hard if they're just doing it over and over again).

Egoraptor talks a big talk, I'll give him that, but in the grand scheme of things he talks about that which he has no knowledge of. If you applied his "great ideas of game design" to fighting games, we would have no footsies or any semblance of patient play.

I mean you could always learn to deal with rolls but what's effort? Plenty of players already have done it, it's not a matter of luck. But you know what? I probably shouldn't even bother responding after that. Someone mercy kill me.

 

[Prawn]

Egoraptor, the king of impatient who compares 2D design philosophies to 3D games, who doesn't stop yelling and articulates mostly stupid points that come down less to bad game design and more to preference? That is not even remotely relevant to Smash or Fighting Games at all. If you wait for someone to stop rolling they're not gonna stop, just throw out a lingering hitbox or dash attack, or PREDICT IT (this one's not hard if they're just doing it over and over again).

Egoraptor talks a big talk, I'll give him that, but in the grand scheme of things he talks about that which he has no knowledge of. If you applied his "great ideas of game design" to fighting games, we would have no footsies or any semblance of patient play.

I mean you could always learn to deal with rolls but what's effort? Plenty of players already have done it, it's not a matter of luck. But you know what? I probably shouldn't even bother responding after that. Someone mercy kill me.

No dude totally luck based, just roll against m2k and you have a chance to win cause it's just luck

 

[Quillion]

Egoraptor, the king of impatient who compares 2D design philosophies to 3D games, who doesn't stop yelling and articulates mostly stupid points that come down less to bad game design and more to preference? That is not even remotely relevant to Smash or Fighting Games at all. If you wait for someone to stop rolling they're not gonna stop, just throw out a lingering hitbox or dash attack, or PREDICT IT (this one's not hard if they're just doing it over and over again).

Egoraptor talks a big talk, I'll give him that, but in the grand scheme of things he talks about that which he has no knowledge of. If you applied his "great ideas of game design" to fighting games, we would have no footsies or any semblance of patient play.

I mean you could always learn to deal with rolls but what's effort? Plenty of players already have done it, it's not a matter of luck. But you know what? I probably shouldn't even bother responding after that. Someone mercy kill me.

But you're still waiting for the miniscule bit of lag, as well as waiting for the opponent to be in range to punish rolls before you attack.

 

[TTTTTsd]

If you have something against waiting then you're just incredibly impatient and imposing that as some sort of rule.

Since when the **** was being IMPATIENT in any sort of fighting game a good thing? When has "waiting and making a calculated decision" been a bad thing? Sounds to me like someone spammed and you got frustrated, then came here and now, you're talking about this and quoting Egoraptor (who is really really stupid IMO). Like, I'm not seeing the validity. At all.

 

[Quillion]

If you have something against waiting then you're just incredibly impatient and imposing that as some sort of rule.

Since when the **** was being IMPATIENT in any sort of fighting game a good thing? When has "waiting and making a calculated decision" been a bad thing? Sounds to me like someone spammed and you got frustrated, then came here and now, you're talking about this and quoting Egoraptor (who is really really stupid IMO). Like, I'm not seeing the validity. At all.

Okay, first you were saying that the game isn't about waiting, now you're defending waiting?

 

[TTTTTsd]

"Waiting" and "being patient" are not the same thing, nor is "waiting and then making a calculated decision." You can either offensively punish or wait, excuse me for not bulletpointing all of the options. I mean, feel free to say waiting is bad or something in a game like OoT which is definitely just like Super Smash Bros in every way shape or form. There's a large difference between waiting and waiting for a punish, in that one is arbitrary and holds you back, and the other is engaging. I'd easily defend the latter and the former boils down to preference and not strictly good game design which Egoraptor never seems to understand as he runs a gaming channel where he's too impatient to read in-game text so he gets lost in his quest to "not wait" and arbitrarily wastes more time, convenient.

This is stupid. This is incredibly ****ing stupid.

The only thing I'm defending is common sense.

 

[PCHU]

The problem is that not everyone has great punishes to rolls; Dedede's dsmash has a bit of startup so I pretty much have to spend a match watching for them to roll, or moving/attacking in such a way that I can start it up and release it when they do roll.
Even then, I sometimes miss just because some characters have really good rolls.
It's kinda like PM's new 2-frame DACUS -- yes, it's always available and if you've got the hands for it, you can do it, but because of how tight the window is you're bound to mess it up.

I do know that Sakurai wants us all to be even and he wants everyone to have a chance to win, but I think that Brawl did just fine with that; I'm not really seeing why it was necessary to make rolling better on top of altering the ledge mechanics.
Actually, I was really excited when I first heard about the invincibility shift on the ledge -- until I found out that anyone can grab the ledge from you during your invincibility just by being there, and not every dsmash (or Dedede's fsmash, which is him slamming the hammer onto the ground) can hit opponents who are totally vulnerable on the ledge.
The game feels homogenized, but the areas in which it isn't are arbitrarily glazed over, and it's a little irritating.

 

[TTTTTsd]

D3 snip

Well, I can suggest if you're Dsmashing rolls they're rolling inward, ever try running into Pivot Ftilt? Ftilt has lingering hitboxes so it's probably actually good for this. It probably takes more commitment but I'd argue it's the easiest punish for a roll he has and the timing is likely simpler.

 

[Quillion]

"Waiting" and "being patient" are not the same thing, nor is "waiting and then making a calculated decision." You can either offensively punish or wait, excuse me for not bulletpointing all of the options. I mean, feel free to say waiting is bad or something in a game like OoT which is definitely just like Super Smash Bros in every way shape or form. There's a large difference between waiting and waiting for a punish, in that one is arbitrary and holds you back, and the other is engaging. I'd easily defend the latter and the former boils down to preference and not strictly good game design which Egoraptor never seems to understand as he runs a gaming channel where he's too impatient to read in-game text so he gets lost in his quest to "not wait" and arbitrarily wastes more time, convenient.

This is stupid. This is incredibly ****ing stupid.

The only thing I'm defending is common sense.

You're taking Egoraptor's reasoning to an extreme. Hey says that a defending enemy creates a more interesting relationship with the player and isn't inherently bad. But when it's the entire focus of the game, like in Brawl and Smash 4, then it's just bad design.

 

[TTTTTsd]

OoT and Smash are not similar at all, nor is that video even close to applicable to this "problem." I never thought I'd have to say this not twice, but THREE ****ing times. You're applying 3D game design concepts to Smash 4 when they're not there at all, but I digress. You don't have to wait very much in this game if you play smart, but I'm done attempting to explain this. I've wasted far too much time on this and I'm already sick of it.

Also that's not "bad game design" by any stretch of objective quantity. Brawl's other horrible mechanics (ledges, chaingrabs, hitstun cancels) are bad game design in that they are not rewarding or too rewarding in the case of chaingrabs.

 

[Angry Guy of DE]

Here's the thing with rolls; little commitment, little reward.

The move by itself doesn't actually help the person beat you, but lets look at what a person might attempt...

Doing a smash attack in anticipation of a roll; High commitment, high reward.

If you can hit them then yeah its great, but whiffing it is very risky.


Doing a tilt to catch them rolling; little commitment, moderate reward.

Depending on the tilt it might be risky but overall a whiffed tilt doesn't have as much recovery as most smashes are on whiff.


Of course there's also risk/reward for grabs, jump attacks, projectiles, and other things but you should get the general idea.

 

[PCHU]

Well, I can suggest if you're Dsmashing rolls they're rolling inward, ever try running into Pivot Ftilt? Ftilt has lingering hitboxes so it's probably actually good for this. It probably takes more commitment but I'd argue it's the easiest punish for a roll he has and the timing is likely simpler.

Yeah, I've tried, and it works sometimes, but the more you do it, you start to realize that rolls are a lot more forgiving than you'd think -- they roll into it, powershield one of the hits, and get a free punish, all for doing what they were gonna do anyway.
It's frustrating to deal with considering ftilt's one of my fastest moves and I don't have much else I can reliably punish with since I usually run into a powershield or invincibility.
One could argue that I haven't learned the timing, but honestly, I don't see a reason a basic move should be so tough to punish; at least wavedashing leaves you completely vulnerable.
I can CG as ICs, SWD, SHDL, SHFFL uairs into shine repeatedly, all that crap, but that's not necessary -- it IS necessary to punish rolls and punish them consistently, which, input-wise, are leagues easier to pull off than any of the flashy junk I mentioned.

If we can't get more reasonable rolls, I'd really rather have faster attack speed in general (as in, for everyone); losing Dedede's bair hurt him pretty bad since he no longer has something solid to space with.
Fair and bair have startup and can be pretty specific hitbox-wise, and nair hardly has any priority.
His new dair has a buttload of startup, and, well, uair is a fantastic move, but I can't wall with it, and I have to bait an airdodge just to land it most of the time (if I'm not comboing into it out of a throw).

 

[Prawn]

Yeah, I've tried, and it works sometimes, but the more you do it, you start to realize that rolls are a lot more forgiving than you'd think -- they roll into it, powershield one of the hits, and get a free punish, all for doing what they were gonna do anyway.
It's frustrating to deal with considering ftilt's one of my fastest moves and I don't have much else I can reliably punish with since I usually run into a powershield or invincibility.
One could argue that I haven't learned the timing, but honestly, I don't see a reason a basic move should be so tough to punish; at least wavedashing leaves you completely vulnerable.
I can CG as ICs, SWD, SHDL, SHFFL uairs into shine repeatedly, all that crap, but that's not necessary -- it IS necessary to punish rolls and punish them consistently, which, input-wise, are leagues easier to pull off than any of the flashy junk I mentioned.

If we can't get more reasonable rolls, I'd really rather have faster attack speed in general (as in, for everyone); losing Dedede's bair hurt him pretty bad since he no longer has something solid to space with.
Fair and bair have startup and can be pretty specific hitbox-wise, and nair hardly has any priority.
His new dair has a buttload of startup, and, well, uair is a fantastic move, but I can't wall with it, and I have to bait an airdodge just to land it most of the time (if I'm not comboing into it out of a throw).

Lol at nair not having priority, nair is godlike. If you don't think so you're not using it correctly. Not only are you talking about a specific character(which doesn't speak to rolling as a whole) you're talking about a character who can deal with it pretty easily.

If anything his ground speed holds him from punishing back rolls away. Everything you're saying sounds like you need to play a lot more and work on your punishes. It has nothing to do with any of the techs you listed, if you can't "punish reliably" on true good reads then you simply need to work on it. Others are managing just fine.

Edit: so if you short hop nair and the hitbox is out before the roll ends he can powershield?

There's a difference between reading and reaction.

 

[TTTTTsd]

*snip*

I struggled a bit with my character too but I found some moves that were really good for it. I feel like if you don't fastfall the Nair and time it right you can probably hit them.

Doc's Dair is actually really funny in that the landing has a hitbox so sometimes I use that to hit rollers. It's a matter of adjusting and it might take some people longer than others but if you keep at it you should be good. Think of it this way, if you can consistently punish rolls in this game it'll probably improve your overall punish game series-wide.

 

[Prawn]

I "main" d3, try nairing where they are(facing the direction they are going to roll) and then buffer a dtilt when you land so when they roll out of the nair you hit them with the dtilt

ALAKAZAM you can punish rolls

Edit: this is the easiest/most applicable method that I find myself using. If they start power shielding the dtilt then do it quicker or follow up the nair with a dash grab

 

[PCHU]

I "main" d3, try nairing where they are(facing the direction they are going to roll) and then buffer a dtilt when you land so when they roll out of the nair you hit them with the dtilt

ALAKAZAM you can punish rolls

I don't know who you're fighting that doesn't punish your nair with a shieldgrab.
Nair doesn't exactly have the best range, not to mention if anyone even touches you, they knock you out of it.
I used to think D3 was a great character until I found out that everyone and their mother has decent options vs him; he does great with controlling space provided your opponent is cornered, but his options for general stage control are bad and landing is a pain due to the fact that he needs to either be in prime position for an autocancel bair, preparing to bait a usmash/utilt, or just not be anywhere near his opponent.

As far as punishing rolls, like I said, it's not like I'm not ever getting the punishes, I just feel it's more tedious than it needs to be; it's a lot less "Wow, it sure is easy to punish this option" and more of "I knew you were going to use this thing, so I've got a punish prepared".
I'd appreciate it if you'd actually explain why what you say works and give multiple options rather than giving me a perceived solution to one scenario and saying it's done; as an actual D3 main, I know that dtilt has ridiculous priority and can clash or overpower quite a few things, but if you hit shield (which you most likely will), it's a braindead punish because of how much endlag it has, so it's generally safe to not use it unless you're guaranteed a punish -- if you're fighting a player that's scared of you, then yes, they will roll back, but most of the time, people are confident enough in shield that they'll just grab you or jab "lock" you in the case of Fox.

Long story short, it's nowhere near impossible to deal with rolls because I've managed to do it thus far, even against ROBs and Rosalinas, but it's a lot more annoying than past iterations and no amount of "gitting gud" is gonna change that.
It's actually more boring than fun/"rewarding" to play a flowchart match; if I already know almost everything the person is gonna do but all I have to do is time my stuff right, it just gets pointless.
Even otherwise solid players tend to fall into the same freaking habits because the game is becoming more barebones paper-rock-scissors like traditional fighters.
It might feel good for you to stomp people over and over again in similar ways, but for me, it lacks intricacy and general enticement, and I'll be happy when we find something cool and new in the game.

 

[Prawn]

stuff.

The only way to know what options work and to employ them is to play more. In the scenario I outlined the nair is more to bait the roll and isn't intended to hit on shield. Even if it did you can just cross them up with it to make the punish harder. Or if you know they shield grab your aerials empty hop and land with a grab.

See this is all theorycrafting now which is why my stance has always been that if you're getting frustrated by rolls you need to play more and figure it out. I can't believe I'm posting in a 20 page thread about this.

 

[PCHU]

The only way to know what options work and to employ them is to play more. In the scenario I outlined the nair is more to bait the roll and isn't intended to hit on shield. Even if it did you can just cross them up with it to make the punish harder. Or if you know they shield grab your aerials empty hop and land with a grab.

See this is all theorycrafting now which is why my stance has always been that if you're getting frustrated by rolls you need to play more and figure it out. I can't believe I'm posting in a 20 page thread about this.

All the theorycrafting in the world isn't gonna change the fact that I'm bored with the game.
You play differently than I do, and it's actually nice to see a valid response to proposed problems, so I'll definitely give you credit for that.
The thing that actually frustrates me is fighting people who rely on rolls, not the occasional roll in and of itself, because everyone does it (even in Melee).

Basically, I say a lot of junk to elaborate on what I mean by "I can play the game just fine, but I don't find it fun".
I don't know why I'm posting here, either, because I'm just as tired of this as you are, and no amount of talk is going to change anything besides maybe an opinion or two.

 

[wmo_]

All the theorycrafting in the world isn't gonna change the fact that I'm bored with the game.
You play differently than I do, and it's actually nice to see a valid response to proposed problems, so I'll definitely give you credit for that.
The thing that actually frustrates me is fighting people who rely on rolls, not the occasional roll in and of itself, because everyone does it (even in Melee).

Basically, I say a lot of junk to elaborate on what I mean by "I can play the game just fine, but I don't find it fun".
I don't know why I'm posting here, either, because I'm just as tired of this as you are, and no amount of talk is going to change anything besides maybe an opinion or two.

there has to be options though. I'm coming here because I just had a horrible FG run, it was filled with the highest amount of cheese possible. The rolling one was someone who played Samus, they rolled a lot. It just felt there was little I can do, but at the same time I don't fully understand what gameplay mechanics are going on when someone rolls. Can they be grabbed? If so, when? It felt like there were very few frames where they could be hit, and he would either roll again or shield making my attacks miss. I would even try to down tilt if they were rolling to me, but nothing. Is there some video fully explaining rolls in Smash 4?

 

[PCHU]

there has to be options though. I'm coming here because I just had a horrible FG run, it was filled with the highest amount of cheese possible. The rolling one was someone who played Samus, they rolled a lot. It just felt there was little I can do, but at the same time I don't fully understand what gameplay mechanics are going on when someone rolls. Can they be grabbed? If so, when? It felt like there were very few frames where they could be hit, and he would either roll again or shield making my attacks miss. I would even try to down tilt if they were rolling to me, but nothing. Is there some video fully explaining rolls in Smash 4?

There are very few frames of vulnerability in rolls in Smash 4, and Samus's roll animation drastically shrinks her hitbox, so some of the things you're trying to hit her with won't work.
On top of THAT, it's wifi, so pretty much, try to bait the roll or don't play wifi.
I hate being like that because I don't like sounding rude, but honestly, when people try to play that way, I leave.
If I'm not learning anything and I'm not having fun, there's no point in playing the game.

 

[chipz]

Also are people so dense to really think everytime they "read" a roll they are deserving of a hard punish?

It's called execution. You need to practice how to punish anything so many times it's second nature which none of you have done(clearly).

And even then, guess what, sometimes you make the best play and still lose. It's called variance. Go talk to a poker player about variance. Professionals only win heads up matches against "scrubby" players 55-60 percent of the time. It's about maximizing your chances to win.

Y'all are seriously the dullest people I've ever met on the internet. And that's saying a lot

Edit: also there's a difference between reading a roll and being a perfect position to punish it and just knowing that they are about to roll.

Not to mention most of these spammy players i see being complained about aren't even about "reading", it's just about manipulating them and making them roll. Lrn2smash

so basically your post boils down to "get good"?
winning matches against scrubby players only half the time is not indicative of a competitive game (at all)
its that 'everyone can win' mentality that Sakurai was going for

comparing smash to poker....seriously?