Rolls seem problematic in this game

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Cherry picking nor not even doing a full analysis is how you show confirmation bias. Same with not telling people context of the action in question.

I'll do that at home.

 

[hariooo]

Cherry picking nor not even doing a full analysis is how you show confirmation bias. Same with not telling people context of the action in question.

I'll do that at home.

That wasn't cherry picking. That was the first 10-15 seconds of the first game of the set he referred to. It was easy to find. Why do I have to do a full analysis? I notice that you're not applying the same standards to anyone else in this thread.

Confirmation bias would be watching any part of that set and pretending like there weren't a lot of rolls. You're not calling that guy out for that though hm.

If you're trying to sound smart you might want to consider looking up how to properly use "nor".

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That wasn't cherry picking. That was the first 10-15 seconds of the first game of the set he referred to. It was easy to find. Why do I have to do a full analysis? I notice that you're not applying the same standards to anyone else in this thread.

Confirmation bias would be watching any part of that set and pretending like there weren't a lot of rolls. You're not calling that guy out for that though hm.

If you're trying to sound smart you might want to consider looking up how to properly use "nor".

This is why I hate the claim you are making.

Day 2 tournament for the WiiU so heck if we know what will develop at this point. Your making a claim on rolling people have shown is punishable and far more the actions I compared to in Melee.

Telling me they rolled a lot but not telling anyone context does not actually tell me if the action is OP is not. Did they roll behind each other? Did they roll forward and back? Did they roll back and bait a reaction? What happened? Your number a acting means nothing.

You used one game vs not comparing games or sets. So what I can take mango v armada in dreamland with a time out and tell people look how campy Melee is! You se not showing progression or if this is universal.

I didn't call him out because he did make a claim and then after the fact apply it to a game at large like you did.

 

[hariooo]

You're talking about context? I posted a link with a timestamp, dude, how much more context do you need? People can watch it and figure it out for themselves. Their conclusion may be reasonably different from mine but "I didn't see them roll a lot" by that guy just isn't true.

So rolling is completely fine based on the evidence that you said so and "get better"? Isn't confirmation bias defined by the way you're treating tournament results? If rolls were heavily punished at KTAR would you be saying "well let's wait and see it's only day 2" or "see guys, watch that tournament and learn how to punish rolls"?

Melee can be incredibly campy and I'm surprised that you didn't use Armada vs hungrybox as an example instead. That being said, at tournament level it's more of an exception than the rule. And the campiness of Fox vs Peach in Melee is faster than the most aggressive Brawl or Smash 4 games so this is all and all an awful example to have chosen.

 

[LancerStaff]

So rolling is completely fine based on the evidence that you said so and "get better"? Isn't confirmation bias defined by the way you're treating tournament results? If rolls were heavily punished at KTAR would you be saying "well let's wait and see it's only day 2" or "see guys, watch that tournament and learn how to punish rolls"?

The problem with that logic being that once people learn to punish rolls, they won't un-learn it.

 

[victra♥]

rolls are stronger than they've ever been

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You're talking about context? I posted a link with a timestamp, dude, how much more context do you need? People can watch it and figure it out for themselves. Their conclusion may be reasonably different from mine but "I didn't see them roll a lot" by that guy just isn't true.

So rolling is completely fine based on the evidence that you said so and "get better"? Isn't confirmation bias defined by the way you're treating tournament results? If rolls were heavily punished at KTAR would you be saying "well let's wait and see it's only day 2" or "see guys, watch that tournament and learn how to punish rolls"?

Melee can be incredibly campy and I'm surprised that you didn't use Armada vs hungrybox as an example instead. That being said, at tournament level it's more of an exception than the rule. And the campiness of Fox vs Peach in Melee is faster than the most aggressive Brawl or Smash 4 games so this is all and all an awful example to have chosen.

I can't view the videos at, on phone.

I'm asking in context what was going on and what we're both players doing. That matters a lot rather than just listing a number.

The get better actually matters since it's day 2 tourny people will get better at certain aspects. Can you say with absolute certainty this will be the case?

My point was you were picking 1 game as your evidence vs comparing all of the top games or even full grand final sets. That is both cherry picking, since you spoke of 15 seconds, and confirmation bias.

 

[hariooo]

Look. That guy said he watched the entire set and didn't see much rolling. I didn't troll through 8 hours of twitch footage looking for the perfect moment to prove him wrong. I looked at the first 15 seconds of the first game of the set that he specifically mentioned and saw 7 rolls in 5 seconds. It's the equivalent of opening a book to its first page and saying "see, you didn't read the book" when someone is clearly talking BS.

Spend all your time attacking my "evidence" without a single shred of your own though.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Look. That guy said he watched the entire set and didn't see much rolling. I didn't troll through 8 hours of twitch footage looking for the perfect moment to prove him wrong. I looked at the first 15 seconds of the first game of the set that he specifically mentioned and saw 7 rolls in 5 seconds. It's the equivalent of opening a book to its first page and saying "see, you didn't read the book" when someone is clearly talking BS.

Spend all your time attacking my "evidence" without a single shred of your own though.

My point is that you are not even trying to look at the game or actually attempt good analysis. Your looking and focusing on one fact and nothijg wise. I asked questions above, you should answer them about the tournament, not that one set.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/591724938

8:37:30

Game 1 of GF's.

7 rolls in 5 seconds from both players on their first stock (obviously they rolled even more after those 5 seconds).

This took me 30 seconds to find. And no I'm not going to record every single roll from top 8 sets if you guys aren't even going to talk about this honestly.

I really didn't think you guys would actually just lie about what happened at KTAR to prove a point.

I sat down and watched the one game you referenced. There wasn't really that much rolling outside out the first part and a little bit later when for for reason they kept trying to roll behind each other?

I'll look into the rest some other time but I gotta sleep.

 

[Tagxy]

Look. That guy said he watched the entire set and didn't see much rolling. I didn't troll through 8 hours of twitch footage looking for the perfect moment to prove him wrong. I looked at the first 15 seconds of the first game of the set that he specifically mentioned and saw 7 rolls in 5 seconds. It's the equivalent of opening a book to its first page and saying "see, you didn't read the book" when someone is clearly talking BS.

Spend all your time attacking my "evidence" without a single shred of your own though.

You're using a 10 second clip to extraplote a statement he made on an entire set. This is your mistaken judgement, not his. I'm not sure what your point is though, obviously rolling is better than previous games which is the point since they had limited use in the first place at high/top level play.

Melee can be incredibly campy and I'm surprised that you didn't use Armada vs hungrybox as an example instead. That being said, at tournament level it's more of an exception than the rule. And the campiness of Fox vs Peach in Melee is faster than the most aggressive Brawl or Smash 4 games so this is all and all an awful example to have chosen.

Few legitimate top level player will tell you melee isnt defensive at top level play. Mango vs Armada is certainly a good demonstration of this and is a good example because it represents the games peak performance. In any case you dont seem to know much of what youre talking about in this case, likely since you seemed more interested in taking a jabs then presenting a legitimate point.

 

[hariooo]

You don't seem to know what extrapolate means.

How is that my "mistaken judgment"? There was a lot of rolling. I provided an example. He was wrong but no one is holding him to nearly the same standards. I haven't attacked anyone else personally in this thread but you seem to have no problem doing it with me so far.

Once again, I posted the clip in response to one specific person saying "nah there wasn't any rolling what are you talking about". That's all. That doesn't obligate me to have to present a thesis statement about the whole thing. No one else is providing analysis of anything in this thread.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I honestly think all rolls need to have the same start up and recovery frames. After the first few rolls you should lose your invincibility for a second. It would be the opposite of the grab rule. honestly I see the roll but like when I fight samus I have to use peach, Mario, or luigi just for thei down smash's to get passed the rolls.

 

[LightLV]

Instead of serious discussion, you ignore or mock points you dislike in addition to heavily relying on popular misconceptions instead of real analysis to support your own. Your tone only indicates your bias and that your posts will soon not be worth responding to.

If you want to make an argument make an argument. To use your opinion as an argument you should have some credibility, if we had a first time player come in here and say c-sticks are cheap we'd ignore this unless they presented strong reasoning. Same applies to virtually anyone else, in a C&D forum your opinion doesnt hold any weight without significant backing.

Look, reply to whatever you want, call me biased if you feel like it. The topic in which we're posting pretty much throws the whole premise of your argument out the window anyway, the whole internet is having the discussion. Whether or not it's an inherently bad thing or not depends on how YOU view it, but you're trying way too hard to silver line this discussion.

Moving on:

Once again commitment was used as a comparison to Dash Dancing and Wave Dashing, which actually do have less commitment. Whether rolling has too much benefit for its risk remains to be proven (only frequenly repeated).

A big problem with the perception presented here is that instead of analysing tools for their offensive and defensive capability, it relies on popular misconceptions without proof and hopes that others will just accept this. However if you cannot support your position then entering discussion is pointless.

"I just watched you support your position with bullet points, just like i'm about to do, but you cannot support your position, so your argument is pointless"

Oh, okay.

-Wave dash has offensive uses, but approach > wave dash back constitutes the large portion of wave dash's use, followed by fake out movements in neutral which is also defensive.
-Dash dancing allows people to pressure without approaching, for this reason if you want to look at something that has massive defensive benefits with no risk look no further. Has offensive uses as well but they generally require risky commitments.
-Dash attacks arent nearly as useful or versatile in melee, even with its top tiers.
-Agreed on super armor being offensive but I meant smash 4 had more and better use of it
-Ledge stallings abilities in both smash games (and carry over invincibility in melee) override any perceived or misconceived additions to defensive gains
-Rolls, spot dodges, and other options oos/shielding are not inherently defensive. For a cursory examination look to Smash 64 and Brawl, when these options are non-existant or not viable a dominating mechanic leads to campier gameplay. By contrast spot dodges, rolls, and shielding were all essential approach options in Brawl and could see it having similar issues as 64 were they nerfed or removed in similar ways. Much more could be said on this but it gets the point across.

Im not really interested in an extended back and forth on these points, only to demonstrate that options must be looked at fully and unbiasly, with more plenty of reason to believe the offense/defense ratio of smash 4 has added considerably to the offensive side of the scale (though I personally enjoy meaningful defense).

Pro-tip : When you're doing something with the intention of opening someone up so you can attack them, you are being offensive. Fakeouts, mixups, ect. Wavedash is a movement technique, it's equally defensive as it is offensive. Dash Dancing would be the same way, except it's far less useful to someone on the defense than someone on offense. You aren't going to wakeup to a dash dance, you aren't helping yourself.

Pro-tip : When you are doing something with the intention of avoiding damage, I.E BLOCKING OR EVADING, you are making a defensive action. In a fighting game, when someone is good at blocking and then punishing, they are known as having good DEFENSE. When someone is good at applying pressure until that defense fails them, they are described as having good offense.

Yes, spot DODGES and DODGE rolling and SHIELDING are DEFENSIVE options, i do not even understand how you're trying to make this argument. It's like you're deliberately trying to make them magically offensive abilities so that people can't call Smash 4 defensive. Cut it out. This here is a textbook example of what you call bias.

 

[Tagxy]

You don't seem to know what extrapolate means.

How is that my "mistaken judgment"? There was a lot of rolling. I provided an example. He was wrong but no one is holding him to nearly the same standards. I haven't attacked anyone else personally in this thread but you seem to have no problem doing it with me so far.

Once again, I posted the clip in response to one specific person saying "nah there wasn't any rolling what are you talking about". That's all. That doesn't obligate me to have to present a thesis statement about the whole thing. No one else is providing analysis of anything in this thread.

He made a statement about an entire set, you made a statement about a 10 second clip. If someone suggests that a book has a deep and interesting storyline, you dont read the first few sentences to determine he was wrong.

Look, reply to whatever you want, call me biased if you feel like it. The topic in which we're posting pretty much throws the whole premise of your argument out the window anyway, the whole internet is having the discussion. Whether or not it's an inherently bad thing or not depends on how YOU view it, but you're trying way too hard to silver line this discussion.

The topic has nothing to do with that statement, only your overt attempts at mocking people.

"I just watched you support your position with bullet points, just like i'm about to do, but you cannot support your position, so your argument is pointless"

Oh, okay.

Making a list of what you percieve to be offensive and defensive techniques without explanations is very different from taking each tool and analyzing its properties. In any case you seem determined that a technique have the properties you've prescribed it, I believe my last post does an adequate job addressing this.

 

[Dexident]

Very casual observation here:

I found that in for-glory scrubs who do nothing but roll were significantly harder to punish than in brawl. For some reason I found myself having to really time my punishes rather precisely in order to combat the rolling phenomena.

It's still not a safe thing to spam repeatedly (of course), but man it seems a lot stronger than in the previous games!

 

[MuraRengan]

From my experience online I'd say that rolls are a lot safer than they used to be, and at the beginnign people who spammed rolls were incredibly frustrating to deal with. But after awhile I began to notice that I've never encountered a roll spammer who didn't fall into a consistent pattern. I could call rolls out, but the frustration occurred in trying to punish them. The old methods in Melee and Brawl didn't seem to work. I would want to try to catch someone rolling with a tilt or a smash, but some characters' rolls are so fast that they can roll out of a punish before it lands and then punish you for it. This pissed me off for awhile, but eventually I settled for more modest punishes. I find that simply turning around and grabbing gets me pretty consistent punishes on rolls, or with characters with quick smashes like Marth or Palutena I can actually punish rolls with a strong attack.

So yeah rolls are strong, but I have yet to see a player use them in a way that is unpredictable while still being overwhelming.

 

[LightLV]

H
Making a list of what you percieve to be offensive and defensive techniques without explanations is very different from taking each tool and analyzing its properties. In any case you seem determined that a technique have the properties you've prescribed it, I believe my last post does an adequate job addressing this.

You can analyze things all you want, as deep (?) as you want. But you aren't going to convince anyone that dodge rolls, spot dodges or air dodges are offensive mechanics.

This went from us talking about rolls to you trying to convince people that this game is "possibly the most offensive"...look whatever i can't even finish typing this.

 

[Shaya]

You can definitely use rolls, spot dodges and air dodges aggressively. At least in my mind, if you're using one of those options on read or reaction so you can punish someone's attack is vastly different as some sort of poor habit/panic response or using them so you can then regain space/position.

I honestly think a lot of blame comes in with the buffering system. In a game with only single action buffers, the best single actions are going to dominate in laggy conditions. In the early meta before people are comfortable with controls/movement/buffering correctly those single actions are going to be relied on heavily too.

Next thing you're going to tell me that shields aren't offensive mechanics either.

 

[LightLV]

Next thing you're going to tell me that shields aren't offensive mechanics either.

Pro-tip : When you're doing something with the intention of opening someone up so you can attack them, you are being offensive. Fakeouts, mixups, ect. Wavedash is a movement technique, it's equally defensive as it is offensive. Dash Dancing would be the same way, except it's far less useful to someone on the defense than someone on offense. You aren't going to wakeup to a dash dance, you aren't helping yourself.

Pro-tip : When you are doing something with the intention of avoiding damage, I.E BLOCKING OR EVADING, you are making a defensive action. In a fighting game, when someone is good at blocking and then punishing, they are known as having good DEFENSE. When someone is good at applying pressure until that defense fails them, they are described as having good offense.

Well, they aren't. I'm sorry. When shields can deal damage and push people off the stage on activation, maybe then they'll be offensive.

I have never heard anyone argue a core defense mechanic as being offensive. You know what? The fact some of you believe shields in this game are indeed offensive just goes to show how ridiculous the defensive mechanics in this game are.

 

[RODO]

You can definitely use rolls, spot dodges and air dodges aggressively. At least in my mind, if you're using one of those options on read or reaction so you can punish someone's attack is vastly different as some sort of poor habit/panic response or using them so you can then regain space/position.

I honestly think a lot of blame comes in with the buffering system. In a game with only single action buffers, the best single actions are going to dominate in laggy conditions. In the early meta before people are comfortable with controls/movement/buffering correctly those single actions are going to be relied on heavily too.

Next thing you're going to tell me that shields aren't offensive mechanics either.

Why and how are shields offfensive?

 

[Shaya]

Power shielding.

 

[DavemanCozy]

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/591724938

8:37:30

Game 1 of GF's.

7 rolls in 5 seconds from both players on their first stock (obviously they rolled even more after those 5 seconds).

This took me 30 seconds to find. And no I'm not going to record every single roll from top 8 sets if you guys aren't even going to talk about this honestly.

I really didn't think you guys would actually just lie about what happened at KTAR to prove a point.

You're being ridiculous, it's exaggerating to say that M2K's loss was due to rolls being OP.

I watched that set too, M2K lost because he got outplayed. Rolls were being punished and likewise used by both players, but they never got spammed and the set didn't just degenerate to rolling around around the stage. Rolling is a much more viable tool now, and they probably might be a bit too good, but it's available to both players. No johns. I saw more shields and spot dodges being used (which are arguably much stronger options than rolls), and no one complains about those.

I agree rolls are really good this time around, but it's ludicrous to say that rolling was the only reason X player won instead of Y player won in the GF of an Apex qualifier when the set is right there.

 

[MuraRengan]

You're being ridiculous, it's exaggerating to say that M2K's loss was due to rolls being OP.

I watched that set too, M2K lost because he got outplayed. Rolls were being punished and likewise used by both players, but they never got spammed and the set didn't just degenerate to rolling around around the stage. Rolling is a much more viable tool now, and they probably might be a bit too good, but it's available to both players. No johns. I saw more shields and spot dodges being used (which are arguably much stronger options than rolls), and no one complains about those.

I agree rolls are really good this time around, but it's ludicrous to say that rolling was the only reason X player won instead of Y player won in the GF of an Apex qualifier when the set is right there.

I think you're overlooking a bigger conceptual problem with that set. With rolls being a lot stronger, there's now even an inherent danger in even trying to punish them. One of the commentators says it himself in one of the matches, "It funny how M2K tried to read that roll and got punished for it." People still have this conception that every time a player anticipates an option it's a "read" as if the player knew what his opponent was gonna do. In actuality, there are only really reads when the player can pick up on particular habits, and habits are formed when players become accustomed to a set of safe options. But like you said, shielding and spot dodging are at least just as good as rolling, and I think both players are aware of that. When this becomes the scenario, there is no longer a preferable option, and trying to anticipate one is literally a guessing game, and commiting to any of those guesses puts you at risk of being punished.

The particular problem with rolling is about positioning. From a neutral perspective, no player is ever disadvantaged by a roll, unless they have already commited to an option. But mounting an offense requires exactly that. If there was no rolling and only shield and spot dodge, commiting to an option wouldn't be as dangerous because the player on offense has the security of knowing that the opponent cannot change his position on the stage. He could pressure the shield with something as simple as charging a spaced forward smash. Indeed, this would make shielding a terrible option all around. That's why rolls exist in the first place. But, the rolls in this game are so fast and have few vulnerable frames that any option that requires the use of a move that has more frames than the roll (of which there are a lot) is punishable, which makes the theory of even trying to have an offense based on whether or not X character can throw out a move fast enough that a rolling char can't get a guaranteed punish. It's no surprise that Diddy became popular because he's got grab, fsmash, and dsmash which all have good enough frames to reliably punish a roll, but those options aren't available to a lot of other characters.

Of course, a player could always position himself in such a way that he is not close enough t she shield opponent to get grabbed, but still close enough to punish any roll, but this does not give the opponent any incentive to take any action at all. If this were a scenario where the shielding opponent had the percent advantage the smartest thing to do would be to do nothing, because the person at the disadvantage eventually has to make a move. And making a move in this game tends to make you more vulnerable because of how fast rolls are. Indeed, the only way to really change the tides of a battle is to make a hard read or a good guess, but the former requires actually knowing what the opponent will do, which is rare. The latter is more likely the cause of any shifts in momentum.

As it stands, getting "outplayed" either means that you had a definitive grasp of the opponent's strategy (which I would not say is evident in the GF video that was linked), making better guesses about what a player will do in shield, or simply being patient enough to commit to less options thus being punished less by a roll.

tl:dr
Shield, spot dodge, and roll are all incredibly safe options, but roll can most reliably punish a player for trying to have an offense.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If a roll caused you to be punished then it's your at fault on that front. You either whiffed blindly, something that was punishable or you got read and they rolled accordingly.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I think you're overlooking a bigger conceptual problem with that set. With rolls being a lot stronger, there's now even an inherent danger in even trying to punish them. One of the commentators says it himself in one of the matches, "It funny how M2K tried to read that roll and got punished for it." People still have this conception that every time a player anticipates an option it's a "read" as if the player knew what his opponent was gonna do. In actuality, there are only really reads when the player can pick up on particular habits, and habits are formed when players become accustomed to a set of safe options. But like you said, shielding and spot dodging are at least just as good as rolling, and I think both players are aware of that. When this becomes the scenario, there is no longer a preferable option, and trying to anticipate one is literally a guessing game, and commiting to any of those guesses puts you at risk of being punished.

The particular problem with rolling is about positioning. From a neutral perspective, no player is ever disadvantaged by a roll, unless they have already commited to an option. But mounting an offense requires exactly that. If there was no rolling and only shield and spot dodge, commiting to an option wouldn't be as dangerous because the player on offense has the security of knowing that the opponent cannot change his position on the stage. He could pressure the shield with something as simple as charging a spaced forward smash. Indeed, this would make shielding a terrible option all around. That's why rolls exist in the first place. But, the rolls in this game are so fast and have few vulnerable frames that any option that requires the use of a move that has more frames than the roll (of which there are a lot) is punishable, which makes the theory of even trying to have an offense based on whether or not X character can throw out a move fast enough that a rolling char can't get a guaranteed punish. It's no surprise that Diddy became popular because he's got grab, fsmash, and dsmash which all have good enough frames to reliably punish a roll, but those options aren't available to a lot of other characters.

Of course, a player could always position himself in such a way that he is not close enough t she shield opponent to get grabbed, but still close enough to punish any roll, but this does not give the opponent any incentive to take any action at all. If this were a scenario where the shielding opponent had the percent advantage the smartest thing to do would be to do nothing, because the person at the disadvantage eventually has to make a move. And making a move in this game tends to make you more vulnerable because of how fast rolls are. Indeed, the only way to really change the tides of a battle is to make a hard read or a good guess, but the former requires actually knowing what the opponent will do, which is rare. The latter is more likely the cause of any shifts in momentum.

As it stands, getting "outplayed" either means that you had a definitive grasp of the opponent's strategy (which I would not say is evident in the GF video that was linked), making better guesses about what a player will do in shield, or simply being patient enough to commit to less options thus being punished less by a roll.

tl:dr
Shield, spot dodge, and roll are all incredibly safe options, but roll can most reliably punish a player for trying to have an offense.

See, that was much more better explained and constructed than

the only reason M2K lost 1K was because he couldn't read rolls.

And you have a good point too. Specially this part:

The rolls in this game are so fast and have few vulnerable frames that any option that requires the use of a move that has more frames than the roll (of which there are a lot) is punishable, which makes the theory of even trying to have an offense based on whether or not X character can throw out a move fast enough that a rolling char can't get a guaranteed punish. It's no surprise that Diddy became popular because he's got grab, fsmash, and dsmash which all have good enough frames to reliably punish a roll, but those options aren't available to a lot of other characters.

I can't claim to know the entire roster well enough for this to be true, but when I see characters like Ike, D3, etc. who have very few fast moves, I see what you mean. Which I think leads to:
- Giving these characters (more) options to use attacks that are safe if the opponent rolls behind them, or
- Make certain rolls slower (30 frame rolls are ok, definitely not a fan of Sonic's or Little Mac's rolls though)

Anyways, my post was mainly to point out shields and spot-dodges being used aside from just rolling. Rolling was being attacked quite unfairly based on 5 seconds of a match.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

I like to point out that it wasn't just the first five seconds of the set that turned into a "Roll-Fest" as one of the commentators called it.

 

[LightLV]

Power shielding.

*facepalm*

I don't think this discussion is capable of going anywhere meaningful. We're trying to discuss the game from a mechanical point of view, but people don't even know the difference between offense and defense. Balance discussions in Smash are on a completely different planet, i'm amazed lol

 

[MuraRengan]

Power shielding is a lot like having a counter. Countering isn't really offense as it is counter attack. That said, we saw in brawl how power shielding was essentially one of the best ways to launch an attack, and the same is true in this game. I'm not really sold on the whole idea that shields can be used offensively in the most literal sense, but shields in this game can play a part in an offensive approach. For example, when I notice an enemy has a tendency to dash attack, I would run up and shield to anticipate it and go for the shield grab. What makes this an offensive move is the fact that I run at the opponent, and the shield is merely a tool to ensure that I get the grab. It's not the shield itself that is offence, but the implementation of it in the overall strategy.

There was a similar use in Melee with lightshield edgehogs and shield tilting to throw off l-cancels. Offensive shielding isn't as crazy as it sounds. It all has to do with how the shield can help you in an offensive strategy.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

@ MuraRengan

Well, my problem with the idea of "offensive shielding" is that at the end of the day it still makes it so the advantage still goes towards the person who decides to attack second. Of course this within itself isn't bad - and is even desirable sometimes in a well made fighting game.

However, when people say too strong shields won't make this game campy and say you can use "offensive shielding" they forget that no matter if you are staying still and shielding and approaching then shield it still rewards the person who attacks second.

 

[MuraRengan]

I agree completely. I'm not really happy with the shields in this game either. But I do think shields would be less powerful if rolls had more vulnerability and/or lag. In past games, well spaced aerials could apply pressure to shields and force players to either roll, jump out, or drop them, and each of these options was punishable, but with rolls being so quick now, the roll option out of the shield makes shielding even safer for both offense and defense.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

Yeah - shielding plus rolling is a terrible combination honestly... 'Specially for a game that decides to nerf offensive measures.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I don't really see an issue with Shield.
If rolls were weaker, grabs would be *even* more practical, which weakens shield and puts more emphasis on spot dodge. As well it be harder to wait out shield damage.

 

[Tagxy]

I've had to stop responding to lightllv while he's abandoned logic and reason for preconceived ideas and common reiterated opinion.

Anyways, of couse the other misconception is that attacking = offense. If I'm being walled by marth fair am I to consider his attacks offensive? If I dash in and shield + punish his fair wall is he promoting offense and I defense because he attacked first? Rhetorical questions, the answer to all of them are no.

 

[Shaya]

Much like in Brawl, I assume as the meta advances people will learn to use their characters safely in such a way that regular shielding is generally not reliable means of punishing something.

The only way to get through these things is with power shielding, chances are the reason it's safe is because of the distance they cover with the move (and/or how they travel after hitting your shield with it).

If Falco is short hop double lasering at me (in Brawl), I have to power shield to reliably get through it. If I don't power shield, you can barely even more towards him without taking damage or just getting side-b'd during your shield drop frames.
Who's being defensive and who's being aggressive here? The falco that's lasering/attacking 'first' is being offensive while me power shielding some 4-8 lasers before I get in range in which he has to choose a reset or attack is defensive?
Falco's reset is side b or roll away, or using jab or tilts to be safe on shield, I kinda need to power shield both of those as well.

Hell you have to power shield Falco's lasers in Melee too.
How naive are you at smash to think the one who's approaching is being defensive, lol.

But seriously, have a look at what power shielding is.
It's something only active for 3 frames and the only benefit one has over regular shielding is:
- shield damage and pushback reduced
- you can instantly act out of a shield drop.

If your plan is to roll backwards on someone hitting your shield, you gained nothing. if your idea was to grab, you likely had a 7 frame move or better that would've done more. Jump? still nothing different.
What do you gain the ability to do? Dash (dash jump!), maybe some specials, maybe just shielding again; the possibilities are endless.

If an enemy is playing defensively and you get your poke power shielded and punished, I would say that's being baited. As pokes are faster than reaction speed (usually) and hence there was likely intentional decision making to capitalise via read or habit.

 

[Telmarine]

As said, rolls have too much invincibility and distance. Also as mentioned previously, some rolls go through down smashes or are far enough that the down smash misses (add in online lag and the problem is exacerbated). At least from my own experience, you can't really poke with normals since they can use a roll or double roll to go right through your attack, recover and punish before your move has finished (for example, samus's down tilt). The ending part of the roll seems to have lots more invincibility then you'd think because if you time your attack just a tad too early as the roll is finishing (the character is standing up again from the roll), your attack will miss due to the invincibility and then they recover right after and get you. Extremely maddening since you predicted and still got burned. The window seems pretty tight and unforgiving. Not to mention on another note that some characters (like Dr. Mario) have a hard time catching people who roll away.

It seems more and more that these buffs to rolls, dodging (seems like it, is that concrete?), and shields that they were designed/balanced with the 8 player matches in mind, where'd you have lots of people simultaneously attacking you.

 

[Tagxy]

Pokes are intended to ellicit a reaction such as rolling itself. Rolls are good and certainly have more utility then in previous games, but rolls going through down smashes or getting punished from poking with a roll through you is not representative of high level play.

 

[Telmarine]

Pokes are intended to ellicit a reaction such as rolling itself. Rolls are good and certainly have more utility then in previous games, but rolls going through down smashes or getting punished from poking with a roll through you is not representative of high level play.

Maybe I'm misreading your post, but the series is not and never will be balanced with high level play in mind. Previous entries, you could use those methods to deter rolls, but now it's extremely difficult for a vast majority of the roster I'd guess. My estimation is that they were buffed for 4+ player matches.

 

[Tagxy]

Thats entirely speculation in your post though, which isnt terribly helpful. Also, sakurai has dropped hints on how he balances the roster, which doesnt corroborate with your thoughts.

 

[Phantom High]

Thats entirely speculation in your post though, which isnt terribly helpful. Also, sakurai has dropped hints on how he balances the roster, which doesnt corroborate with your thoughts.

oh Sakurai balanced it all right.
he balanced with FFAin mind. hence why you get inconsistencies.

Besides do you really trust Sakurai to balance the roster?