Rolls seem problematic in this game

[LancerStaff]

I guess I'm just having trouble seeing how others aren't coming to the conclusion that rolling in this game has brought about some pretty toxic gameplay. I've legit read rolls only to whiff because they chained another roll before my attack could even come out. Like rolled behind and back in front in less time than it took for a tilt or smash to come out. I know how to punish rolls in this game. For me I just pick DK and down b anyone who rolls behind me but man is that lame that I even have to counter pick based on a mechanic that's supposedly not a big deal to some of you guys.

Who are you using that you're having trouble punishing rolls with?

 

[RODO]

Who are you using that you're having trouble punishing rolls with?

Mainly Marth and Samus. Lost to a DDD player in tournament who just kept rolling and even some of my reads just weren't good enough because they weren't frame perfect it seemed.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Ok I have have 2 things for you. First is that rolls are indeed punishable. I don't think anyone is arguing that. But from experience they are very hard to deal with, so much so that sometimes I'm forced to switch characters just to punish rolls which is kind of lame imo. Second thing is idk how everyone here could not agree that giving some of the quick rolls less invincibility or more start up would balance the game further AND make it more fun to play and watch.

I'm not really sure what the deal is for defending rolls. What would be the downside to nerfing rolls?

It becomes a less viable option.

Might be my own bias maining Lucario in brawl but I have seen it be punished multiple times and even more so with Metaknights forward roll which is debatably even better.

High/top level players punished this when they got used to it quickly.

I wouldn't shed a tear if they nerfed it a little per day but rolls are far from being unpunishable and rolling backwards to ledge has a trade off people seem to not get in the concept of stage control.

Some character might struggle a little with this but the whole cast can punish rolls.

 

[Nobie]

Mainly Marth and Samus. Lost to a DDD player in tournament who just kept rolling and even some of my reads just weren't good enough because they weren't frame perfect it seemed.

Are you sure it wasn't Dedede specifically? As far as I can tell he has particularly good rolls in this game (especially his back roll), possibly to make up for how immobile he is otherwise.

 

[LancerStaff]

Mainly Marth and Samus. Lost to a DDD player in tournament who just kept rolling and even some of my reads just weren't good enough because they weren't frame perfect it seemed.

Hmm, can't help ya there, but I don't think they're particularly bad at punishing rolls. Most good Samus players I've fought online would usually rather charge a shot instead of punishing my rolls, (making me look like a doofus to boot,) but they were probably just toying with me because they were that much better then me.

And I have been hearing people compare SSB4 Pit to the Marth of old, although I'm not entirely sure how true that is. But Pit has all the options in the world to punish rolls and then some.

 

[RODO]

Are you sure it wasn't Dedede specifically? As far as I can tell he has particularly good rolls in this game (especially his back roll), possibly to make up for how immobile he is otherwise.

Mac's is pretty annoying too because it's so fast. I've played a few people not online who are using rolls as baits. Literally just walk forward roll backward repeat until you approach and whiff a move then get punished.

 

[roymustang1990-]

Rolls are definately a problem for me in this game.

Just earlier,my friend has rolled spam against me and I couldn't punish a majority of them. T.T

 

[LightLV]

People who can punish rolls with smash attacks on reaction (Mario, Wii Fit Trainer) don't understand how good they have it.

Seems like the majority of the cast kept these down smashes that are slow as hell with terrible active frames that allows people to literally roll through their down smashes twice and then punish them before it recovers.

 

[OracleFish]

Rolls are a huge problem for me in this game...not really sure how to properly punish them.

I was playing a match online against Duck Hunt, had him down a stock and about 100%, and he just started rolling all the way to the edge - back and forth - doing absolutely nothing else. Tried punishing and couldn't get enough hits on him before Sudden Death. Sudden death came, he jumped off the edge, and I got hit by a bomb...losing the match.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

People who can punish rolls with smash attacks on reaction (Mario, Wii Fit Trainer) don't understand how good they have it.

Seems like the majority of the cast kept these down smashes that are slow as hell with terrible active frames that allows people to literally roll through their down smashes twice and then punish them before it recovers.

Why is Dsmash your only option to punish?

Jab? Grab? Pivot grab? Dtilt? Ftilt, Fsmash? Bair? Nair? Specials? Letting them just roll so they give up stage control?

There are a lot of options to punish a roll. Timing is the thing people will need to work on.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Pivot tilt seems like an ingame option to counter rolls that go behind a running character.

 

[LightLV]

Why is Dsmash your only option to punish?

Jab? Grab? Pivot grab? Dtilt? Ftilt, Fsmash? Bair? Nair? Specials? Letting them just roll so they give up stage control?

There are a lot of options to punish a roll. Timing is the thing people will need to work on.

Let's just be honest. The timing required to punish rolls in this game with modest normals is pretty ridiculous. There used to be a universal move that was effective at punishing rolls for practically the entire cast (dsmash), and it's no longer a thing. You can use pivot grabs/tilts/sexkicks/whatever. But we're still having this conversation.

In my experience in this game, attempting to even punish a roll is just a terrible idea, even if you make the read. It's far better to just chase and punish something else instead. It's too good.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Let's just be honest. The timing required to punish rolls in this game with modest normals is pretty ridiculous. There used to be a universal move that was effective at punishing rolls for practically the entire cast (dsmash), and it's no longer a thing. You can use pivot grabs/tilts/sexkicks/whatever. But we're still having this conversation.

In my experience in this game, attempting to even punish a roll is just a terrible idea, even if you make the read. It's far better to just chase and punish something else instead. It's too good.

The timing is equal to the timing to L-cancel just with more prediction.

 

[Tagxy]

Let's just be honest. The timing required to punish rolls in this game with modest normals is pretty ridiculous. There used to be a universal move that was effective at punishing rolls for practically the entire cast (dsmash), and it's no longer a thing. You can use pivot grabs/tilts/sexkicks/whatever. But we're still having this conversation.

In my experience in this game, attempting to even punish a roll is just a terrible idea, even if you make the read. It's far better to just chase and punish something else instead. It's too good.

Ok I have have 2 things for you. First is that rolls are indeed punishable. I don't think anyone is arguing that. But from experience they are very hard to deal with, so much so that sometimes I'm forced to switch characters just to punish rolls which is kind of lame imo. Second thing is idk how everyone here could not agree that giving some of the quick rolls less invincibility or more start up would balance the game further AND make it more fun to play and watch.

I'm not really sure what the deal is for defending rolls. What would be the downside to nerfing rolls?

Youll notice that its not the good players that are generally complaining about rolls either though. They had no to very limited use in the past, as we saw with MK in Brawl their best use is in smart offensive play but they are still pretty punishable.

Now if you want to make the argument that its unfair some characters have better rolls then others, that I could understand.

 

[Angry Guy of DE]

I think its more annoying that the amount of distance covered by rolls makes running after them not work when some character's run speed can't catch them.

An increased recovery at the end or reducing the distance the roll goes would make it less effective when you can catch them with a grab when they make a poor roll.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think I'm gonna make a video on this.

Might be the only way to give and idea for players what to do.

 

[G-Sword]

I think I'm gonna make a video on this.

Might be the only way to give and idea for players what to do.

plz do. because i tried figuring out a way to punish rollers and its not effective enough. especially against falcon and mario.

 

[-LzR-]

How many times do we have to repeat that we can deal with rolling because we are not stupid. That doesn't change the fact that they are extremely ******** because unless you read it and hard commit to punishing it with precision timing you are going to have a bad time.
Rolls should be a decent option but not a really good one. Try playing against someone who is smart about their rolls. Are you going to do that ****ty ftilt behind you and risk getting fsmashed or will you just ignore the roll and try to get away?

Oh and stop with this trend of "rolls were crap in the older games". No they weren't. Rolls are extremely useful and powerful in all Smashes. Just because beginners overuse them so they are easily predictable doesn't mean an invincible retreat option is suddenly ****ty.

 

[hariooo]

Better link this video guide to everyone who attended KTAR. M2k lost $1k because he couldn't read rolls.

 

[Shaya]

Rolling away to reset to neutral is very very good in all games. It's overly potent in this game due to them on average being about 5-10 frames less laggy than they were before when the punishing options for rolls aren't as good as they once were (dash attacks are shorter durations out, the length of rolls in comparison to run speeds is similar if not better).

However, doesn't mean we cannot adapt to a game where rolling is just meant to be that good. Is it lame right now? Yeah, it's spammable and it's good; at least it's available on every character (although the 25 frame roll club vs the 30 frame roll club is kinda disgusting).

If air dodges are (I believe) universally 30 frames, why can't rolls? :<

 

[LightLV]

I think I'm gonna make a video on this.

Might be the only way to give and idea for players what to do.

I've already mentioned how I punish them -- I don't. It's pointless to even try, the game clearly favors defense, and against anyone with half a brain it's only begging to wiff and get punished. Either you have the tools to execute a hard read or you don't.

But it isn't rocket science, it's just ****ing annoying. Sure, you "lrn 2 adapt", or whatever people like saying, i dont know, of course you will if you ever want to win. It doesn't make it any less lame. But I think it's funny people say that about rolls but sware by death that wavedashing was toxic. And that didn't even give you invincibility frames.

 

[otter]

But I think it's funny people say that about rolls but sware by death that wavedashing was toxic. And that didn't even give you invincibility frames.

I just made that same point in another thread. I'd like to see someone address it.

 

[Merkabo]

Play Ganon
Wizkick or flame choke when they roll
Super valueeeeeeeeeee

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I've already mentioned how I punish them -- I don't. It's pointless to even try, the game clearly favors defense, and against anyone with half a brain it's only begging to wiff and get punished. Either you have the tools to execute a hard read or you don't.

But it isn't rocket science, it's just ****ing annoying. Sure, you "lrn 2 adapt", or whatever people like saying, i dont know, of course you will if you ever want to win. It doesn't make it any less lame. But I think it's funny people say that about rolls but sware by death that wavedashing was toxic. And that didn't even give you invincibility frames.

Favors defense? Because they rolled into you which is an approach? Or they roll back which is defensive? Which has a trade off?

You're whining for the sake of it.

I just made that same point in another thread. I'd like to see someone address it.

That Wavedashing and dash dancing don't commit anywhere near the degree a roll does?

 

[LightLV]

Favors defense? Because they rolled into you which is an approach? Or they roll back which is defensive? Which has a trade off?

You're whining for the sake of it.

We're 11 pages into this topic, and I think even the most positive and optimistic players would agree the defensive options in this game are significant. Be serious. I don't even have to explain this.

That Wavedashing and dash dancing don't commit anywhere near the degree a roll does?

"commit" is being used really loosely here. When people use that word, it usually involves some significant amount of risk.

 

[RODO]

We're 11 pages into this topic, and I think even the most positive and optimistic players would agree the defensive options in this game are significant. Be serious. I don't even have to explain this.



"commit" is being used really loosely here. When people use that word, it usually involves some significant amount of risk.

Thank you!

 

[Shaya]

Rolling is binary, wave dashing and dash dancing are not.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

We're 11 pages into this topic, and I think even the most positive and optimistic players would agree the defensive options in this game are significant. Be serious. I don't even have to explain this.

Don't distract from what I stated. I'm not going into a debate of offensive of defensive outside of what people are doing with the rolls.

"commit" is being used really loosely here. When people use that word, it usually involves some significant amount of risk.

Rolling has a lot more risk than either of dash dancing or wavedashing. Rolling does one thing, go from a to b with some invincibility frames and it's a set distance you know they are dedicated to.

 

[Tagxy]

"commit" is being used really loosely here. When people use that word, it usually involves some significant amount of risk.

You can poke at the definitions, but you completely ignored his point. He made a relation and he is correct, rolling is less of a commitment then wavedashing or dash dancing.

We're 11 pages into this topic, and I think even the most positive and optimistic players would agree the defensive options in this game are significant. Be serious. I don't even have to explain this.

You do have to explain this. Are we to rely on the testimony of your high level of understanding of the game? If so where's your creds? (Even if you could include this it would be one piece of a full discussion.) Excluding such testimony you'll have to present your argument like any normal person instead of making the assumptions of ignorance.

The defensive mechanics of smash 4 are more limited then theyve been since 64. Dash dancing and wave dashing provide more defensive use then offense. Projectiles: nerfed, Long swords; nerfed; Ledge; nerfed. Then you have buffs to burst movement (dash attacks for everyone, monkey flip, quick attack, sonic, little mac), more generous use of super armor. In reality theres potential this game could be the most offensive of the series (however this doesnt say too much in and of itself because people assume melee is much less defensive then it is).

There's also limited explanation to how rolls adds to the games defense over its offense. First of all Im not going to seriously address anyone who considers rolling your stage position away a legitimate defensive option unless you have some exceptional explanation. So the only real use rolling has as a legitimate defensive tool is escaping pressure, however even the best rolls in smash 4 are nowhere near as good as what most high and top tiers had in previous smash games and certainly arent as good many tools that exist in smash 4. Is it really ok that fox can shine out of shield while every other lowly character is stuck with their terrible roll? Is it ok that MK gets an invincible up-b out of shield while low tiers are stuck predictably rolling away? Better rolls create a level playing field for characters that have otherwise terrible options under pressure. Maybe you think the better way to go was to limit options under shield pressure for good characters rather then expand them for bad, but dont pretend that most high-top level play in other smash games didnt have options that were even more powerful.

How many times do we have to repeat that we can deal with rolling because we are not stupid. That doesn't change the fact that they are extremely ******** because unless you read it and hard commit to punishing it with precision timing you are going to have a bad time.

"We can deal with rolling, but we cant deal with rolling". Kind of contradictory.

Oh and stop with this trend of "rolls were crap in the older games". No they weren't. Rolls are extremely useful and powerful in all Smashes. Just because beginners overuse them so they are easily predictable doesn't mean an invincible retreat option is suddenly ****ty.

Hmm I think not.

Rolling away to reset to neutral is very very good in all games. It's overly potent in this game due to them on average being about 5-10 frames less laggy than they were before when the punishing options for rolls aren't as good as they once were (dash attacks are shorter durations out, the length of rolls in comparison to run speeds is similar if not better).

However, doesn't mean we cannot adapt to a game where rolling is just meant to be that good. Is it lame right now? Yeah, it's spammable and it's good; at least it's available on every character (although the 25 frame roll club vs the 30 frame roll club is kinda disgusting).

If air dodges are (I believe) universally 30 frames, why can't rolls? :<

Sort of addressed earlier in this post, but rolling to reset to neutral wasnt too prominent in high level smash because the good characters generally had better options. The only exception I can think of was in regards to MK's tornado (spot dodge and invincible up-b's aside). Although this mightve been the case to an extent with Marth too. Several characters still have better options now imo, but if youre a character without that rolls become even more important.

I agree that lack of universal rolls is sort of saddening (except a character like little mac who I think is fine with it as his schtick). But they did even out WFT's airdodge to match others iirc so perhaps its something we may see later?

 

[Angry Guy of DE]

I was not aware that some of the cast had a quicker roll, I kind of assumed but I didn't think it was as much as 5 frames.

I dunno, I think I just notice it more since in melee Marth's normal could catch rolls and some characters like Falcon and Ganon could catch rolls with a D-Air.

Especially as Ganon, the difference in D-air's hitbox from melee can leave me whiffing when it looks like it should've gotten you. But I digress, new game requires new tactics. Wizard Foot and Flame Choke have never gotten so much use.

 

[LightLV]

You can poke at the definitions, but you completely ignored his point. He made a relation and he is correct, rolling is less of a commitment then wavedashing or dash dancing.

You do have to explain this. Are we to rely on the testimony of your high level of understanding of the game? If so where's your creds? (Even if you could include this it would be one piece of a full discussion.) Excluding such testimony you'll have to present your argument like any normal person instead of making the assumptions of ignorance.

So i need to be a pro authority on smash to have an opinion now? Oh, sorry. You should probably ignore everything in this post then. I suck at this game.

Otherwise, he's using "COMMIT" way too loosely here, as it usually involves an option you took that you can't easily retract from. Jumping in SF = commitment. Air Dashing in anime fighters = commitments. A dragon punch = commitment. This is common knowledge, you don't have to be a pro at any of these games to very quickly learn the concept, even without the terminology. This doesn't happen in smash 4, hence this thread subject existing in this iteration and this iteration only.

You simply do not take a risk proportional with the benefits with rolling in this game, I'm sorry. It doesn't take a pro to point this out. Perhaps my idea of "commitment" is a bit more broad or extreme than yours? I dunno. The closest thing a defensive option has to commitment of that sort is air dodge landing lag.

The defensive mechanics of smash 4 are more limited then theyve been since 64.

hahahaha

Dash dancing and wave dashing provide more defensive use then offense. Projectiles: nerfed, Long swords; nerfed; Ledge; nerfed. Then you have buffs to burst movement (dash attacks for everyone, monkey flip, quick attack, sonic, little mac), more generous use of super armor. In reality theres potential this game could be the most offensive of the series (however this doesnt say too much in and of itself because people assume melee is much less defensive then it is).

...wait, we are about to seriously start arguing that smash 4 is the most offensive game in the series? We aren't really about to do this are we...?

- Wave dashing is a movement technique
- Dash dancing is just a visual mindgame. Seeing as it's for mindgames and tech chases, I don't think it's defensive...
- Everyone had dash attacks in melee.
- Super Armor is an offensive tool, not a defensive one. You don't use defense mechanics to activate it...
- Ledges being nerfed is a buff to defense, it helps the loser get back on the stage, removing offensive impact.

In other news, dodge rolls are faster than ever, safer than ever. Spot dodge is faster than ever, safer than ever. Shielding is faster than ever, safer than ever, and unless you're fighting Little Mac, shield knockback is nearly nonexistent. Ledges have no ledgehogging and the blast zones on 3DS are far as ****. One defensive mechanic got nerfed, and that's air dodge landing lag. And it was far more unsafe in melee.

There's also limited explanation to how rolls adds to the games defense over its offense. First of all Im not going to seriously address anyone who considers rolling your stage position away a legitimate defensive option unless you have some exceptional explanation.

.......

So the only real use rolling has as a legitimate defensive tool is escaping pressure, however even the best rolls in smash 4 are nowhere near as good as what most high and top tiers had in previous smash games and certainly arent as good many tools that exist in smash 4. Is it really ok that fox can shine out of shield while every other lowly character is stuck with their terrible roll? Is it ok that MK gets an invincible up-b out of shield while low tiers are stuck predictably rolling away? Better rolls create a level playing field for characters that have otherwise terrible options under pressure. Maybe you think the better way to go was to limit options under shield pressure for good characters rather then expand them for bad, but dont pretend that most high-top level play in other smash games didnt have options that were even more powerful.

Oh look, nevermind, i dont have to explain anything, I didn't think i did. So, even you are aware that these options are stronger than they've ever been, and that shielding is also a tool used for escaping pressure. Mentioning out of shield techniques from Melee Fox and Brawl MK do nothing for your argument. They are exceptions and powerful techniques in their own right, which prrooobbably has something to do with them being Top-Tier in the first place.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What commitment is any character when at anypoint you can take it back? Pretty much what both the Melee options do.

Rolling has commitment because you literally cannot do anything for x amount of frames.

If people learned to punish Lucario's and Metaknights rolls in brawl they can do it here.

If you refuse to try and punish it, that's on you.

 

[Tagxy]

So i need to be a pro authority on smash to have an opinion now? Oh, sorry. You should probably ignore everything in this post then. I suck at this game.

Instead of serious discussion, you ignore or mock points you dislike in addition to heavily relying on popular misconceptions instead of real analysis to support your own. Your tone only indicates your bias and that your posts will soon not be worth responding to.

If you want to make an argument make an argument. To use your opinion as an argument you should have some credibility, if we had a first time player come in here and say c-sticks are cheap we'd ignore this unless they presented strong reasoning. Same applies to virtually anyone else, in a C&D forum your opinion doesnt hold any weight without significant backing.

Moving on:

Otherwise, he's using "COMMIT" way too loosely here, as it usually involves an option you took that you can't easily retract from. Jumping in SF = commitment. Air Dashing in anime fighters = commitments. A dragon punch = commitment. This is common knowledge, you don't have to be a pro at any of these games to very quickly learn the concept, even without the terminology. This doesn't happen in smash 4, hence this thread subject existing in this iteration and this iteration only.

You simply do not take a risk proportional with the benefits with rolling in this game, I'm sorry. It doesn't take a pro to point this out. Perhaps my idea of "commitment" is a bit more broad or extreme than yours? I dunno. The closest thing a defensive option has to commitment of that sort is air dodge landing lag.

...wait, we are about to seriously start arguing that smash 4 is the most offensive game in the series? We aren't really about to do this are we...?

- Wave dashing is a movement technique
- Dash dancing is just a visual mindgame. Seeing as it's for mindgames and tech chases, I don't think it's defensive...
- Everyone had dash attacks in melee.
- Super Armor is an offensive tool, not a defensive one. You don't use defense mechanics to activate it...
- Ledges being nerfed is a buff to defense, it helps the loser get back on the stage, removing offensive impact.

In other news, dodge rolls are faster than ever, safer than ever. Spot dodge is faster than ever, safer than ever. Shielding is faster than ever, safer than ever, and unless you're fighting Little Mac, shield knockback is nearly nonexistent. Ledges have no ledgehogging and the blast zones on 3DS are far as ****. One defensive mechanic got nerfed, and that's air dodge landing lag. And it was far more unsafe in melee.

Once again commitment was used as a comparison to Dash Dancing and Wave Dashing, which actually do have less commitment. Whether rolling has too much benefit for its risk remains to be proven (only frequenly repeated).

A big problem with the perception presented here is that instead of analysing tools for their offensive and defensive capability, it relies on popular misconceptions without proof and hopes that others will just accept this. However if you cannot support your position then entering discussion is pointless.

-Wave dash has offensive uses, but approach > wave dash back constitutes the large portion of wave dash's use, followed by fake out movements in neutral which is also defensive.
-Dash dancing allows people to pressure without approaching, for this reason if you want to look at something that has massive defensive benefits with no risk look no further. Has offensive uses as well but they generally require risky commitments.
-Dash attacks arent nearly as useful or versatile in melee, even with its top tiers.
-Agreed on super armor being offensive but I meant smash 4 had more and better use of it
-Ledge stallings abilities in both smash games (and carry over invincibility in melee) override any perceived or misconceived additions to defensive gains
-Rolls, spot dodges, and other options oos/shielding are not inherently defensive. For a cursory examination look to Smash 64 and Brawl, when these options are non-existant or not viable a dominating mechanic leads to campier gameplay. By contrast spot dodges, rolls, and shielding were all essential approach options in Brawl and could see it having similar issues as 64 were they nerfed or removed in similar ways. Much more could be said on this but it gets the point across.

Im not really interested in an extended back and forth on these points, only to demonstrate that options must be looked at fully and unbiasly, with more plenty of reason to believe the offense/defense ratio of smash 4 has added considerably to the offensive side of the scale (though I personally enjoy meaningful defense).

Oh look, nevermind, i dont have to explain anything, I didn't think i did. So, even you are aware that these options are stronger than they've ever been, and that shielding is also a tool used for escaping pressure. Mentioning out of shield techniques from Melee Fox and Brawl MK do nothing for your argument. They are exceptions and powerful techniques in their own right, which prrooobbably has something to do with them being Top-Tier in the first place.

This should be an indication that I've understood your postion. Yet as previously indicated this mistakenly assumes shields are not an integral part of RPS that should frequently beat attack options. On that note Id argue that having adequate options from shield are an integral part of having a deep game, however at the very least the fact that such prominent, popular, and accepted options exist at top level in other comparable games should indicate that its a matter of preference. Also it wasnt just Fox and MK, virtually every good character had a powerful and fairly unique options OOS that were better then rolling.

 

[RedEyesKirby]

I initially said I found roll as a problem earlier in this post. But now with the Wii U version out, and a lot more practices against rolls, I find it much easier to punish rolls. It really is about reading your opponent, and when they roll. It's really easy to read what they'll do next and respond correspondingly because they don't have much options after the roll. One thing that I notice that may help a lot of you who are having trouble with rolls is try not to whiff an attack or grab out every chance you get. If you dash pivot constantly near your opponent without whiffing an attack or grab out, you'll find that your options are completely opened up on the their rolls. And if they roll a lot, they'll roll on instinct as soon as you start dash pivoting near them or as soon as they whiff an attack out and miss.

At least it worked for me thus far.

 

[Zelder]

Better link this video guide to everyone who attended KTAR. M2k lost $1k because he couldn't read rolls.

Hey I finally watched this tournament match, M2K didn't lose because he couldn't read rolls, he lost because Jtalis outplayed him. I don't even think they rolled that much in any of the matches.

 

[chainmaillekid]

I'm curious to the people contributing to this thread, whether they are playing online, or live.

They definitely appear to be more abusable online from what I've seen, more than I'd like anyway.

 

[Zelder]

I'm curious to the people contributing to this thread, whether they are playing online, or live.

They definitely appear to be more abusable online from what I've seen, more than I'd like anyway.

That's a result of input lag and bad connections, which can't really be helped unfortunately.

 

[hariooo]

Hey I finally watched this tournament match, M2K didn't lose because he couldn't read rolls, he lost because Jtalis outplayed him. I don't even think they rolled that much in any of the matches.

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/591724938

8:37:30

Game 1 of GF's.

7 rolls in 5 seconds from both players on their first stock (obviously they rolled even more after those 5 seconds).

This took me 30 seconds to find. And no I'm not going to record every single roll from top 8 sets if you guys aren't even going to talk about this honestly.

I really didn't think you guys would actually just lie about what happened at KTAR to prove a point.

 

[chainmaillekid]

That's a result of input lag and bad connections, which can't really be helped unfortunately.

But is it something being considered in this discussion?

 

[Unknownkid]

Hey I finally watched this tournament match, M2K didn't lose because he couldn't read rolls, he lost because Jtalis outplayed him. I don't even think they rolled that much in any of the matches.

No! M2K lost because he didn't perform enough Up Airs but we are going off-topic. This Defensive Discussion is interesting. Please continue. I'm learning.