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Requesting Feedback - A Potential Alternate Rule Set
- Thread starter Cactuar
- Start date
Gea
Smash Master
If I recall correctly one of the reasons some people claimed this stage was banned (besides the rock) was that you could sometimes manage to WD through the main platform. I call bunk but whatever.
Citizen Snips
Smash Journeyman
**** Pokefloats.Real talk. Whoever is in charge, should have never banned poke floats
That stage sucks d******
My friends and I have been trying this rule set, cactuar. With all seriousness, it degraded the game a LOT! It put a huge emphasis on the first stock, and then camping the remaining match.
This is one thing I really want to emphasize, camping is wayyyyy more viable, and easier, with only 3 minutes on the clock. In melee, practicing camping is a load of crap, 8 minute camping friendlies? I think we would rather play for 3 minutes and have the match be over... but with this rule set, we can now camp for 3 minutes and the match will be over either way. I'm not just saying that it's more accessible because of the lower timer having an easier time on people's nerves, it's also easier to do with the huge variety of stages.
Have you played your own rule set much? Sure, some better char become worse, like marth/ICs, when more stages are introduced, but fox becomes even better on stages like onette, flat zone, jungle japes... so much camping!!
I think you may need some assistance in creating a rule set that promotes fast games, and also familiarity and acceptance of other FGCs. I recommend you contact Alex20. He's pretty much got the best brain when it comes to knowing about how to make a game function in an enjoyable, balanced, and healthy manner. He might not see this topic, so please message him! I really don't want you to miss out on his input!
This is one thing I really want to emphasize, camping is wayyyyy more viable, and easier, with only 3 minutes on the clock. In melee, practicing camping is a load of crap, 8 minute camping friendlies? I think we would rather play for 3 minutes and have the match be over... but with this rule set, we can now camp for 3 minutes and the match will be over either way. I'm not just saying that it's more accessible because of the lower timer having an easier time on people's nerves, it's also easier to do with the huge variety of stages.
Have you played your own rule set much? Sure, some better char become worse, like marth/ICs, when more stages are introduced, but fox becomes even better on stages like onette, flat zone, jungle japes... so much camping!!
I think you may need some assistance in creating a rule set that promotes fast games, and also familiarity and acceptance of other FGCs. I recommend you contact Alex20. He's pretty much got the best brain when it comes to knowing about how to make a game function in an enjoyable, balanced, and healthy manner. He might not see this topic, so please message him! I really don't want you to miss out on his input!
KrIsP!
Smash Champion
Although it is true it makes camping viable it's easily remedied. Since most matches don't end with a time out just make it two stocks and say 4 minutes, or even back to 8. Less stocks effect the time even more, of course this gets away from Cactuar's idea of regular time outs being okay but no one is going to camp the last stock with 6 minutes on the clock.
This is why I just feel like 3 stock, 5 minutes works better though it's so nicely in the middle that it can lead to shorter matches and possibly more viable chars but doesn't make any drastic changes or benefit stalling.
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
Yea, ok, but you can also fall through part of Pokemon stadium.
On all the times I've played on KJ (which is a lot, because i like that stage lol) this has never happened to me, so I don't think that it will occur very often if the stage was legal. Just as you will rarely see somebody fall through pokemon stadium.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
So yeah, this post doesn't exist. Just ignore it.
phish-it
Smash Champion
Probably the fact that no one likes playing on it.
I never understood why Kongo Jungle (DK rap) was banned either, it was always that way since I could remember when far more 'imbalanced' stages were still legal such as MK2, Onett, Green Greens, Peach's Castle, etc.
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
i played with the 2 stock on some extra stages.
i played with someone a little bit better than me ($mike for those who know him)
the matches were fun, but i still couldn't imagine being on kongo jungle, and getting barrel guarded by the claptrap and losing a set. that occurrence was random, hilarious, and would be excruciating to experience in a tournament set.
as a ganon main, some matches went very, very fast, and most of them were not in my favor. gimps happen.
i played with someone a little bit better than me ($mike for those who know him)
the matches were fun, but i still couldn't imagine being on kongo jungle, and getting barrel guarded by the claptrap and losing a set. that occurrence was random, hilarious, and would be excruciating to experience in a tournament set.
as a ganon main, some matches went very, very fast, and most of them were not in my favor. gimps happen.
PGH Carroll
Smash Master
I don't like it. Fox dittos ending in 20 seconds. Lol
Mew2King
King of the Mews
Gea I have NEVER had that happen before, nor have I ever seen it happen
Anth0ny
Smash Master
10 years old, and such a radical change in the ruleset is actually being considered.
I approve.
I approve.
King5280
Smash Journeyman
idk..........
Shawn101589
Smash Journeyman
Doesn't this sort of making winning the first match a LOT more important since counterpicks would be so strong now? And the idea of adapting happening between matches is kinda true, but I feel like if I win game 1 as fox (or any of the other characters these stages were originally banned due in large part to), even if I lose game 2, unless being able to ban stages for counterpicks is upped significantly (kind of making the idea of legalizing more stages redundant), As long as I win game 1, I can just counterpick my way to victory. I mean, with the kind of counterpicks I'd have access too, I could just SD twice on purpose on whatever my opponent coutnerpicks, not give them any information to adapt to/learn from, and then just counterpick them to an autowin.
I just always saw the shortened stage list as a way to minimize the power of counterpicks.
As far as accident forgiveness is concerned, I don't really understand what anyone here is saying... If I SD, the result is that I have one less stock than I previously did. Assuming I was even with my opponent, I am now a stock below my opponent. Being able to continue to play the game is accident forgiveness? I really don't follow that. Unless the game is set to one stock, being able to continue to play after a suicide is going to exist. The difference here is that with time being shortened, my opponent will have a better chance of timing me out before I can remedy my mistake. Being able to remedy a mistake based on my input is something I consider skillful... I think 3 stocks would be ok, but SDing and being at a monstrous disadvantage of being only one stock with no chance to remedy my mistake seems really silly. One stock means once I'm dead, the game is over. If I can be killed without my opponent worrying about dying in the process as long as I'm dead first, after one suicide, it is going to buff characters that can suicide kill dramatically.
I just always saw the shortened stage list as a way to minimize the power of counterpicks.
As far as accident forgiveness is concerned, I don't really understand what anyone here is saying... If I SD, the result is that I have one less stock than I previously did. Assuming I was even with my opponent, I am now a stock below my opponent. Being able to continue to play the game is accident forgiveness? I really don't follow that. Unless the game is set to one stock, being able to continue to play after a suicide is going to exist. The difference here is that with time being shortened, my opponent will have a better chance of timing me out before I can remedy my mistake. Being able to remedy a mistake based on my input is something I consider skillful... I think 3 stocks would be ok, but SDing and being at a monstrous disadvantage of being only one stock with no chance to remedy my mistake seems really silly. One stock means once I'm dead, the game is over. If I can be killed without my opponent worrying about dying in the process as long as I'm dead first, after one suicide, it is going to buff characters that can suicide kill dramatically.
Qlaw
Smash Cadet
um. its best of 7 dude. also, sding is part of skill. If a player learns amazing combos but sds all the time, do they deserve to win? also, less stock = less radical tier list.
Kal
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2004
- Messages
- 2,973
If you're good enough to predict your opponent's counterpick strategies, this isn't the case. If the counterpicks were that strong in the first place, they'd be banned for being broken (they clearly aren't all "pick this and guarantee a win" stages, like Hyrule). Today, they're banned for different reasons.
Obviously, this assumes that we'll be banning the broken stages, like Hyrule. I personally think that single-character or single-strategy brokenness is a sufficient criterion for banning stages.
Shawn101589
Smash Journeyman
Best of 7
Game 1, let's assume one of the neutrals. I win as fox.
Game 2 you counterpick me to a stage you **** me at.
Game 3 I counterpick you to a stage I **** you at.
Game 4 you counter pick me to a stage you **** you at.
etc etc etc
End result, since I won the first game, logically speaking the less neutral a stage is(obviously subjective) the better chance I have as a character with an advantage to win. By winning the first game, I secure the advantage of even if you tie my win count, I can counterpick you. With stages being so shifted in foxes favor, him winning the first game with him an extremely secure position.
And to your second question, yes. Why not? When I SD, the disadvantage I gain is that I have less lives than you. Should the disadvantage be worse than that? I have to work to regain my advantage, right?
Why does it matter if you predict them? If I win the first match, I can get destroyed horribly. If I'm fox vs a character that isn't fox, I can counterpick to a stage that is greatly in my favor even if I lose.
Qlaw
Smash Cadet
as in: do they deserve to win over the player who has learned how to control their character?
also- and? that happens now. With match one being MORE important
also- what if youre both fox?
also- and? that happens now. With match one being MORE important
also- what if youre both fox?
Shawn101589
Smash Journeyman
They deserve to be at a disadvantage for SDing; considering how easy it is to suicide, I don't think it should result in a disadvantage as strong as only having one stock left. And, if I lose a stock and still win the match, then I was controlling my character better.
No, with Fox, the first match is the most important.
I knew the fox vs fox was going to come up and my answer is this; do we want to see melee devolve into fox vs fox only and buff him more than he needs?
Bing
Smash Master
If its a best of 7, then someone sding once or twice isnt going to be huge. Because even if it was a best of 3, they`ve already lost a game pretty much by that standard...
cmac
Smash Cadet
Personally, I'm not a big fan about the rule change. I have always prefered the 4 stock ruleset however, I will try this rule set out before I completely disapprove of it. Also if there was a change I'd prefer a 3 stock, best of 5, 5 min ruleset as opposed to a 2 stock, best of 7, 3 min ruleset.
Qlaw
Smash Cadet
the problem with four stock is that sding almost doesn't matter. sure, two stock makes it too punishing, but whats worse, someone being punished for having Bs or someone who is never punished? Punishing harshly for sding is only going to help our overall development.
Also- if stages are deemed unfair they will be removed. simple as that
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
I'm only going to say that too much importance is placed on stages. If you're really worried about being disadvantaged due to a CP stage, you need to get better on all of them (and you probably don't deserve to win, anyways).
Qlaw
Smash Cadet
^ exactly. Learning how to use the stage takes skill too.
Shawn101589
Smash Journeyman
...To much importance is placed on stages?
Fox is one of the main reasons that most of the stages are banned. While we are in the process of creating an alternate ruleset, why don't you just cut out the middle man and ban fox? That would actually make things really interesting. But as it stands, fox is to powerful for more then maybe a couple of stages ever being deemed worthy after reevaluation imo.
Qlaw
Smash Cadet
actually- making it so that a fox main can't pick certain stages could work
- Joined
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- 5,493
I'm aware. I never said that there weren't broken stages. But, with the current ruleset (and this one to a degree) CP stages don't mean nearly as much as people think they do. If you get a bad stage, that shouldn't be automatic loss.
Shawn101589
Smash Journeyman
Shouldn't is definitely true. Fox having an advantage is an issue though and has been for a while. Which is one of the main reasons our stage list is so short in the first place.
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
wow mike was right.
the general thread really is a bunch of uneducated randoms griping about fox and stages and stuff.
here's mine:
you know, if fox just multishines on the rock i swear theres no way to do approach. and by lowering the time to 3 minutes, this becomes a reasonable strategy. it's hard to multishine for 8 minutes, surely, but if you lower the time limit so much, theres no way to stop the fox from just multishining for 3 minutes on the rock, resulting in an autowin.
LETS GO.
the general thread really is a bunch of uneducated randoms griping about fox and stages and stuff.
here's mine:
you know, if fox just multishines on the rock i swear theres no way to do approach. and by lowering the time to 3 minutes, this becomes a reasonable strategy. it's hard to multishine for 8 minutes, surely, but if you lower the time limit so much, theres no way to stop the fox from just multishining for 3 minutes on the rock, resulting in an autowin.
LETS GO.
Shawn101589
Smash Journeyman
I'm not saying that fox is an infallible character. He definitely isn't. But I don't see the point in giving him more stages to counterpick to that give him an advantage. And I especially don't think that there should any incredibly significant increase in stages, because fox having good matchups at a lot of them isn't the only problem. I'm using fox as an example because he was the main reason a lot of stages were banned to begin with lol.
Instead of insulting, what is your take? Do you think more stages should be opened up?
twizzlerj
Smash Journeyman
you sir make sense but I don't think fox is ban worthy since well I think falco is a little better then him but yea certain stages are very good for certain characters that they need to be banned. The ban thing is referring to another reply not yours.
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
uhhh i mean honestly, it'd be a pretty painful process for me as ganon to deal with all the stages. my ganon is fast, but some locations don't exactly allow me to lock down a fox that has chosen to run away like other stages.
i live down south, so we don't really have the kind of foxes that make those stages unplayable. we have the kind of foxes that would create 30 second dittos. so in my location, opening up the stagelist would just give me something new to think about. since i joined when i did (late in 09), i know the neutrals pretty well, and never even had to deal with pokefloats or japes.
or i'd just enhance my pocket fox *shrug*
i live down south, so we don't really have the kind of foxes that make those stages unplayable. we have the kind of foxes that would create 30 second dittos. so in my location, opening up the stagelist would just give me something new to think about. since i joined when i did (late in 09), i know the neutrals pretty well, and never even had to deal with pokefloats or japes.
or i'd just enhance my pocket fox *shrug*
Qlaw
Smash Cadet
lolol. "uneducated randoms"? How can you know how educated we are if you admit that you don't even know us? also- if you bothered to check, many of us understand that some stages cannot help but be banned.
btw " i swear theres no way to do approach" is so grammatically incorrect it hurts. <3
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
i see why some people troll. it is fun. not generally my style though.
Kal
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2004
- Messages
- 2,973
What's stopping your opponent from choosing Fox? This is the point: if you have enough game knowledge, you'll be able to guess your opponent's strategy and respond accordingly. If your opponent picks Mute City or Brinstar, he'll likely go Peach or Puff. If he picks Green Greens, he'll likely go Fox or Falco.
Any ruleset is "fair" as long as all options are available to both players. You're blowing steam here, and that steam you're blowing is exactly the reason most of these stages are banned in the current ruleset.
Shroomed
Smash Master
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
This x1000
Making less characters viable is not how you keep melee fun and interesting lol
MasterShake
Smash Lord
After skimming it seems like people are much more open to 3 stock 5 min. (though I would prefer 6 because I think it would further discourage camping, scrub mindset what?) bo5. After thinking about it, I might even prefer it to our current ruleset if the stages were kept mostly intact. 3 stock comebacks are so much more common and not as morale sinking. I hope we get some TO's to run the 3 stock ruleset and test it out, it sounds a lot better.