Rate Their Chances - Smash Ultimate Edition! Day 672: Five Most Likely First and Third Parties for Smash 6, and Final Goodbyes

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Since apparently people think Captain Toad's non-jumping is an issue, I'd like to remind you that Link can only jump in Zelda II and Breath of the Wild.

This isn't a good comparison. Link is not only based partially upon his Zelda II version anyway(as he was a combination of multiple games in Smash 64), but he actually has a regular form of jumping otherwise via the Roc's Feather and Roc's Cape, two items that came up later to do more jumping. The way he jumps off ledges is meant to be akin to jumping as normal, and he can jump in the 3D games otherwise via a sidestep hop, a backflip, and a full out jump off a ledge(sometimes with a side flip in Majora's Mask). They clearly do think he can jump, but it's been limited but not impossible, in most games. It's also not an actual characterization feature most of the time. Captain Toad's inability to jump is a very specific feature of the character that defines him consistently. Even characters like Sonic, who can't swim, actually can in some media, making it inconsistent. In addition, Smash actually has him in a drowning animation, acknowledging it to some degree, And now he takes damage, showing his characterization is treated as accurate.

Not saying he can't get in, but it is an important part of the character. Of course it could be as simple as him having beyond awful jumps(even worse than Brawl Ganondorf) too, but people finding the No Jumping thing an important factor are being fair about why it is. Smash is pretty consistent in not screwing with characterization's abilities all that much.

For the record I'm abstaining on both(including no noms or predictions in return on my end), but I've spoke my mind a lot on how I feel Dixie could be, and it always ends with backlash, so I don't feel comfortable making the argument at this point. And by backlash, I mean taking it a bit far instead of not agreeing with the idea in itself, as it seems like it's already read over what the actual point is with barely any exceptions. You've seen it before, so you probably know what I meant. That said, I'm going to bow out cause I'm not going to make a large deal over the Captain Toad thing either. I think pointing out the flaw in your comparison is good enough. It doesn't mean I think he's impossible, but I don't feel he really had a chance to be playable. Not asking anyone to agree with me, and I put up my reasoning on the previous day. For the record, I won't be replying back to any posts related to this, as I'm intending to drop out after the point I brought up. It's also why I'm abstaining overall. I hope you understand why I brought up the flaw. Mind you, I happen to think regular Toad is a better pick myself, but eh.

 

[StormC]

**** if I know it took them 3 games to add Diddy and 5 to add K. Rool so maybe Sakurai just hates Rare or something.

Don't think that's really fair. Diddy couldn't even be in Melee due to legal issues with Rare in all likelihood. And K. Rool was dwindling in obscurity and relevance with each and each Smash game but once Sakurai became aware of the fan demand he acted on it. Can we really say he hates Rare after that glorious Banjo-Kazooie trailer?

 

[3BitSaurus]

Within Smash, I personally believe liberties with characters must be taken in order to meet their role in the game.

Easily one of the biggest examples of this is with Character size. Within Pokemon, Charizard is barely over 5 feet tall, Mewtwo is 6'6, Lucario is under 4 feet, and Pikachu is around a foot tall. Yet liberties were taken, and while everyone is in a general line with how their size is comapritively, the fact of the matter is that liberties were taken. Size also gives us more examples. Olimar is the size of a quarter, while Ridley and K Rool dwarf their heroes. Yet they are in Smash.

Liberties also are taken in the movesets of characters. Zelda borrowed the spells from OoT. Falcon literally just borrowed the model rig from Dragon King. I could go on in my view on this.

Does this potentially have a negative effect? Possibly. Sakurai is a fickle man. He may see Ridley as too big until he isn't. He may see the Miis as too peaceful until they are not.

I would argue giving Captain Toad very stumpy jumps would be true to his character. Make him have the lowest jumps in the series.


Keep in mind I think he is not happening. I just feel this arguement is flawed.

Another option that would blend regular Toad and Captain Toad would be to give him an ok jump, but make him the only character in the game that can jump only once. To compensate for his air game, give him a good up special.

It can be done. All that needs to happen is a good kit synergy for the character as a whole.

 

[frozolloyd]

Captain Toad:
Chance: 1 percent
There are so many things going against this character. This fighter pass seems to be focused on 3rd party characters, and we already got our Mario rep for this DLC. I think he has a good shot of being DLC if there is a first party focused fighter pass afterwards or for the next game.
Want: 0 percent
He's better then the concept of just a normal toad, but I honestly wouldn't be excited to see him added.

Dixie Kong:
Chance: 2 percent
Theoretically, Dixie would be a good character to be added to round out the DK representation. However, she's a spirit, which I lean towards as a disconfirm for this fighter pass.
Want: 10 percent
Although I think she more then deserves to be in the game at this point, I'm not really that invested into her games, nor would I honestly want to pay for her as DLC, as most third parties being added would be more "hype" for me.

 

[Playstation Guy 1000]

I missed yesterday rate day so here on my thoughts on the Characters that day:
Monster hunter rep
Chance 50%:A Monster Hunter rep is Possible to be on the next dlc due to it's large popularity in japan and well received but consider it's completion with other capcom franchises and rathalos already being in the game (That could help or hurt the chances) it's a maybe.
Want 55%:A Monster Hunter rep could be fun with a pretty large cast of weapons(Hammer, Dual Blades, Hammer, Hunting Horn and others).
Morrigan
Chance 20%:I honestly think she's unlikely due to her franchise being dead(about 2 decades if you don't count the remake or compilation games), and again like I said with resident evil rep and monster hunter rep she has a lot of completion with other capcom franchises/characters .
Want: Abstain, I had no attachment with Morrigan so I not sure what to say about her in terms of wants.

and now on today's story
Captain Toad
Chance 6%:Given that the pass is becoming just to be third party characters I don't think captain toad has a chance in this pass as I feel like he should be on the base game roster instead.
Want 30%:I be fine with toad as a playable character.
Dixie Kong
Chance 20%:She does has more has a chance than toad but still with the pass most likely being third party characters I don't see it likely to have her in the dlc pass.
Want 60%:More rareware more good stuff for me, I be glad to include Dixie in the smash bros family.

Nominations: Cooking Mama x5

 

[Planet Cool]

It's not so much that he can't be in. It's that, if putting him in Smash means changing the feature that makes him unique, then maybe he shouldn't. One easy way to get around it would be to make him a "generic" Toad and just give him some moves from Treasure Tracker, like the Super Pickax.

 

[Troykv]

Well, I always had in mind that (Captain) Toad would be a fast faller with a poor jump anyway.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Don't think that's really fair. Diddy couldn't even be in Melee due to legal issues with Rare in all likelihood. And K. Rool was dwindling in obscurity and relevance with each and each Smash game but once Sakurai became aware of the fan demand he acted on it. Can we really say he hates Rare after that glorious Banjo-Kazooie trailer?

Oh I don't think he hates Rare, but I don't think those are valid reasons. What legal troubles would there be about Diddy? He's 100% unequivocally owned by Nintendo, debuted in a Nintendo owned franchise.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Oh I don't think he hates Rare, but I don't think those are valid reasons. What legal troubles would there be about Diddy? He's 100% unequivocally owned by Nintendo, debuted in a Nintendo owned franchise.

It's because Nintendo, Rare, and Microsoft were still deciding who owns what during the time Melee was developed. So there was some legal confusion. A literal case of what Sakurai said; "Adult reasons". Cause literally, the adults are still talking on it. I did remember reading related to that that Banjo was going to have a Trophy in Melee?

 

[GoodGrief741]

It's because Nintendo, Rare, and Microsoft were still deciding who owns what during the time Melee was developed. So there was some legal confusion. A literal case of what Sakurai said; "Adult reasons". Cause literally, the adults are still talking on it. I did remember reading related to that that Banjo was going to have a Trophy in Melee?

You got a source on that? Not that I don't believe you, but that sounds like a very dumb legal problem. Nintendo is and was certainly dumb.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You got a source on that? Not that I don't believe you, but that sounds like a very dumb legal problem. Nintendo is and was certainly dumb.

They can't really license Banjo until they decide who even owns him yet. Same with Diddy. They have to wait for that alone. Sure, you can start work on a character semi-early(as long as you have the development kit. I learned just a tad more about how the early work factor, well, works), but what's the point if you don't know who legally owns what. It was just bad timing for Diddy, that's all.

There's honestly nothing dumb here. Rareware is being bought out. Microsoft wants certain things. Nintendo owns a lot of the stuff, but didn't create everything. Rare did on their own, so part of the properties were attributed to them(including Diddy, as they created him specifically). So it was just a big legal hurdle and confusion for Sakurai to deal with. And it didn't get figured out fast enough for Diddy to stand a remote chance of getting in. Give me a sec to find it. I don't think it's at SG specifically, but there's nothing to suggest Diddy was considered for Melee anyway. I think it was more the case that Diddy already was in a bad timing, and since he's in Brawl, Sakurai may have never mentioned why he wasn't in that early. I'm trying to remember where the source was for the buyout being problematic, though.

 

[StormC]

Oh I don't think he hates Rare, but I don't think those are valid reasons. What legal troubles would there be about Diddy? He's 100% unequivocally owned by Nintendo, debuted in a Nintendo owned franchise.

So was Banjo at a time, but Sakurai recently said he couldn't include a Banjo trophy in Melee because of legal issues.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There's also this:

-In the PAL version of Melee, at the end of the credits, it will say "Certain characters and items from Perfect Dark and Donkey Kong Country 2. Donkey Kong Rap music based on original Donkey Kong 64 music courtesy of Rare Ltd."

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Credits#In_Super_Smash_Bros._Melee

Rare received a credit for things like the Dixie and K. Rool trophies. The original DKC characters were co-owned by Nintendo and Rare until the split.

 

[Nemuresu]

You got a source on that? Not that I don't believe you, but that sounds like a very dumb legal problem. Nintendo is and was certainly dumb.

I remember hearing something about "adult things" regarding someone's exclusion from the roster, but the closest thing I found to it is in Source Gaming's unused fighters article:

Banjo and Kazooie: “Incidentally, including a character from Rare in Smash would be difficult for various reasons. I know there are some people who think that Banjo & Kazooie are an obvious inclusion, but that’s unlikely for a variety of legal and financial reasons.”
James Bond: “Showing realistic guns = no good! Character uses an actor’s likeness = no good! Since the original game is based on a movie, getting those rights = no good! He’s Rare’s property = no good! Blocked on all fronts.”

Then, there was also that awkward revelation where Microsoft thought they owned Donkey Kong after buying Rare.

 

[Jomosensual]

Toad

Chance 10 - Is 1st party. Is a spirit. Is in 2 characters movesets. Dont see this one happening for all those reasons. Probably one of the more likely 1st party characters to get in, but still being 1st party hurts his chances by a lot.

Want 70 - Sure, why not. I know Toad. I like Toad. He's probably big enough to get in. Feel like he or Waluigi is the next man up for Smash 6

Dixie Kong

Chance 10 - Also a spirit. Also 1st party. Also probably not getting in the game. Not much else for me to say here

Want 20 - I guess she'd be a fine pick. I wouldn't get too excited over Dixie though

Noms
Kratos x5

 

[GoodGrief741]

I know nobody reads my posts for movie criticism but do yourself a favor and go watch Toy Story 4.

Spoiler: Calcs

Monster Hunter
12.21% Chance, 31.88% Want
Winner of predictions was GoodGrief741 by virtue of being the lowest prediction, with 5.41%
Yeah, predictions were definitely way off for this one, the second closest was 23.40% to give you an idea.
Last time we rated them they got 31.06% Chance and 46.21% Want. The game was long out by that point, with Rathalos known and the leak that pointed to them long disproved, so I really don't know what caused such a drop. My guess is that now that all eyes are on Capcom, people thought it through and decided that Phoenix Wright and the RE guys are contenders, and much stronger ones at that.

Morrigan Aensland
3.53% Chance, 29.53% Want
Winner of predictions was Nemuresu with 2.70%. Congratulations! You got your character rated and free noms.

Not much to say today but this post is feeling really short. I guess I'll add that there were a lot of predictions for today so tomorrow will be feisty.

Extra noms people

Artix 10 extra noms
Awakining 5 extra noms
DaUsername 50 extra noms
Delzethin 5 extra noms
FancySmash 5 extra noms
GoodGrief741 40 extra noms
Nemuresu 5 extra noms
Ridrool64 5 extra noms
Sari 95 extra noms
shocktarts17 5 extra noms
Ramen Tengoku 5 extra noms
Ultomato 5 extra noms

 

[waddledeeonredyoshi]

lil mushroom fella
Chance: 1%
I don't totally doubt the possibility of us getting atleast one first-party character in the pass. But unfortunately for Cap, I only see the contenders being a promotinal choice or somebody with a huge supportbase, which Captain Toad isn't really either. Plant also doesn't help his situation.

Want: 60%
Being a Dee supporter, I obviously have a soft spot for the Captain as well. His game was pretty neat and the Toads deserve proper representation in Smash just as much as Waddle Dees do. Granted, I'm way less crazy about them than I am about Dees but with them debuting all the way back in SMB1 I'd agree they should've been represented in playable form by now.

How do I make this text pink?
Chance: 1%
I would say they could save her for some Echo fighter DLC. But the aditional Dixie Kong Mii hat being in the game alongside the more usual Spirit combined with the fact that it would've been such a sensible choice to have her in the base game as an echo fighter makes me think Sakurai is purposefully holding her back to have her be an original fighter in the next Smash Bros game instead.

Want: 65%
Another character whose absence leaves me a bit baffled. They introduced Echo fighters yet didn't add a character who's been considered in the past and has been requested for years and would've made an easy echoe? Why not? Can only mean they are planning on making her a fully fledged character in the next game, no? That or she's part of the fighters pass (yeah right), which would mean she'd bring new DK stage with her, hopefully from TF as that game's amazing and deserves way more representation.

Lloyd: 56.67%
Yuri: 24.86%
Gene x5

 

[RealPokeFan11]

How do I make this text pink?

Find the hex color for pink on google, then copy and paste it where it says "hex color" when selecting colored text.

 

[lordvaati]

Captain Toad
chance: 5%- At least in the Fighter's pass anyway, since it seems the theme is all characters never before seen in Smash(aka 3rd party) also him being a Spirit hurts as well.

Want: 90%-Captain Toad has been a mainstay in the Mario franchise for going on 12 years, the same length as Rosalina(much longer then Toadsworth, who went AWOL after the M&L games for some reason). Toad in general is the only major protagonist of the Mario series that has yet to be playable as well. as for the Backpack controversy solutions could be discovered from ways to have the Captain remove the pack or just giving him SMB2 Toad stats of having immense grab power in exchange for horrible jumping.


Dixie Kong
Chance: 10%-pretty much everything I said about the Captain applies here too. She gets a slighly higher grade though because she has more demand.

Want: 99%-Dixe's inclusion would result in us having every major character from the original DKC Trilogy in Smash. Also at this point she might be the most requested first party character for the game, only rivaled by Dee, Isaac, Rex and Waluigi. The only thing I disagree with is only bringing her in as an Echo, because I would prefer to have the character for a unique playstyle rather then have the character for the sake of the character in this case.

 

[BravadoMan_13]

Capt. Toad
Chance: 15%
- I don't see him happening in this pass. If there is a chance of a second pass, then his chances could rise up.

Want: 100%
- One of the few glaring omissions from the roster. Toad in general has been a mainstay in the Mario series for over 30 years. He and Waluigi are among the main Mario crew still yet to be playable in Smash.

Dixie Kong
Chance: 25%
- Like Toad, I'm not expecting Dixie in this pass either. Her chances like Toad could increase if a second fighter's pass came to be

Want: 100%
- Both Waluigi and Dixie are at the top of my most wanted characters. She is one of the few characters that is missing from the roster. Wish she could have been in Smash 4 when Tropical Freeze was the most recent thing out there.

 

[ze9]

Dixie Kong
Chance - 5%
She's not going to get in in this fighter's pass. If there's more DLC later, then her chances will go significantly up. But still, they may feel Rare has already got enough love this time.

Want - 100%
She's always been among my most wanted characters and now she's probably the only one left, since Ridley, Banjo and K. Rool all got in. It won't really feel "ultimate" to me as long as Dixie's not there.
Also, bring some more DKC2 and TF music with her, too. Please

 

[Calamitas]

Toad, but every time he appears in a game, he's more unique and has more of a personality
Chance: 5%
And that's being generous. I'm still firmly in the camp that believes that first-party characters have a shot for the Fighter's Pass, and the Spirits don't deconfirm, but Captain Toad is still in a rough spot. We already had a Mario Echo Fighter, and an unique Mario DLC Fighter, and I doubt that the Fighter's Pass will give us another. It certainly doesn't help that he can also appear in the New Donk City stage, apparently.
Want: 30%
He's not my most wanted by any means, but I'd gladly take him. Admittedly, not being yet another third-party character would be the most appealing point about him to me.

Diddy Kong Echo Fighter except probably not??
Chance: 20%
I'd like to believe that she has a chance, but I feel there's just a few too many points going against her. There were already two characters created by Rare introduced in Ultimate, and I can't really see there being a third. Plus, after having Banjo's reveal trailer already building of K Rool's, it would feel a bit odd if they revisited it a third time. Though I'll admit that this is a rather weak point against her.
Want: 75%
The only DK games I ever played were Returns 3D and Tropical Freeze, but I loved those a lot. Having her become playable would make the DK Crew feel just a whole lot more complete. And again, she's an actual Nintendo character.

Nominating Amaterasu x5

 

[Nquoid]

Captain Toad

Chance: 5%
Want: 75%

This pass is going to be all third party, so it really lowers his chances. But if we did get a sneak Nintendo character in at the last minute I would imagine he would be on a shortlist. Not likely at all, but much like Bandana Dee, Captain Toad differentiates him from the other Toads

But I adore Captain Toad Treasure Tracker. One of the most purely enjoyable new ideas Nintendo have put out in recent years. The fact that Captain Toad went from enjoyable side character in Mario Galaxy to starring in his own game in less than a decade is a testament to just how charming he is.

Dixie Kong

Chance: 5%
Want 80%

Same reason as Captain Toad. This pass is all third party, but I could see Dixie being on Nintendo's shortlist if there is first party representation. Possibly more likely if they release some echoes however.

These two characters are probably the last two Mario tangential icons who really should be in Smash (I know Waluigi, but he's literally never been in a main series Mario game, even Daisy was in Super Mario Land). Dixie Kong was playable in two of the biggest SNES games (the fact she wasn't in DK64 is still bizarre) so it's really past due at this point. Only thing holding the want back is DK getting 2 reps in one game. Honestly I'd actually prefer her be an echo at this point, almost every big series in Smash has one or a clone, so it would be a sign that DK is getting some respect.

 

[YoshiandToad]

This is going to be an utter ramble as typing on the mobile, so apologies;

Captain Toad
chance: 5%
Captain Toad sold over 1m units on both the Wii U and Switch and received surprising DLC back in March, getting support almost four years after it's initial release.

Nintendo seem pretty supportive of Toads as a whole having given Captain his own game which Smash counts as a separate series to Super Mario according to Spirits and Toadette has gone from filler fodder like Waluigi and to a lesser extent Daisy to the official fourth member of the Princess Rescue crew.
Heck Toad recently got a doctorate and joined Mario, Luigi, Peach, Yoshi and Bowser in Dr. Mario.

Toad is genuinely a popular and beloved Nintendo character. The sales of his game and the merchandise prove it. Hell, he was in the top ten requests if we ever got a second Smash Bros.

Yet here we are, nearly twenty years later and Sakurai has just skipped Toad for every other available Mario character bar Waluigi including some frankly less interesting characters like Dr. Mario and Daisy(who is less interesting due to just being Peach with a paint job in Ultimate).

The biggest issue Captain Toad faces outside Sakurai for DLC is Nintendo seemingly using the pass to entice fans of non Nintendo games, and he, alongside Dixie, is the quintessential Nintendo character that is currently missing.

Want: 100%
To the point I made this, and he's the only character I ever completed one for:

I got about half way through a Bandana Dee moveset and Plant got revealed.

It's pretty disheartening having watched Smash fans go from having a huge support for playable Toad to accepting his role as Peach's counter.

These days Smash fans(on Smashboards in particular) seem to agree Toad should have been in Brawl but don't find the idea of what is IMO, the most screwed over Nintendo character to date in terms of Smash.

Considering Sm4sh focused so heavily on the previous generation for newcomers I can easily say I was disappointed this one didn't do the same and give us Captain Toad, arguably the most fleshed out Toad to date, Dixie Kong, Bandana Dee(who replaced both Metaknight and Dedede in the Wii U Kirby offering), Elma and any of the many playable Zelda choices in Hyrule Warriors such as Impa, Tingle, Midna, Skull Kid or Ghirahim. We did get Inklings though.

I know I'm in the minority, but I'd far have preferred that we got some more Wii U newcomers than have every veteran return.

Dixie Kong
chance: 6%
Similar to Captain Toad, but with a more vocal Smash fanbase

Want: 99%
Sakurai, I can't consider any Smash Ultimate when genuine Nintendo All Stars like Dixie and Toad aren't in the roster. I've wanted Dixie since Brawl, and Toad since 64...I can't believe they still aren't playable honestly.

Slightly less want for Dixie but it's incredibly minute. Both are top wants for me and they should really be prioritised for the base roster next game.

 

[Ridrool64]

White-Capped Red-Spotted Toads Can't Jump

Chance: So Captain Toad over here has A. A spirit, B. is a Toad, which has a presence in Paisy's moveset (though I wouldn't hold it against him too much), and C. is First Party in a pass that looks to be primarily third party. No dice, unfortunately, I'm going to go for a 10%.

Want: I really am not the kind of person who cares a good deal about Captain Toad. I think he has the potential to be a fun inclusion, and I did like his segments in 3D World. But I didn't get Treasure Tracker mostly because... well... I dunno why I didn't. Seems fun. Anyway, 40%. He's not somebody I care about but there's enough people that do so hey, more power to them.

Rareware's Leading Lady

Chance: Dixie has all the issues that Captain Toad has. Except, of course, the presence in a moveset. Dixie exchanges that for a Mii Hat, which I'm going to probably call as a "sorry, we couldn't do Dixie, but her fans would love this!" gift to them. So, unfortunately, I really don't think she's in. 5%.

Want: Dixie would still be a great addition. But my tastes have shifted, and more importantly, my priorities have shifted elsewhere. So while Dixie would be great, I'll just give her a 60% since I have new ideas for characters I'd like. But she wouldn't be bad at all!

More Bosses x 5. I'm gonna focus on saving potentially interesting concepts first.

 

[BirthNote]

Captain Toad: 10%
Want: 50%
With the Fighter's Pass being 3rd Party and 1st Party Microsoft, plus the addition of Piranha Plant I'm skeptical about another Mario character. As for want, I'm 50/50; I'm sure he can get a fun moveset that sticks to what he's known for or blends a bunch of Toad traits.

Dixie Kong: 10%
Want: 100%
Very similar situation as the Captain. We got K. Rool, the current focus seems to be on non-Nintendo owned characters AND many are counting her out as an Echo, which hurts her overall interest. With the addition of B-K all that's left is Dixie, but we've said that when K. Rool got in. As for want, I've been supporting her for 6 years so it's a given that I still want her in, but not as an Echo.

This isn't a good comparison. Link is not only based partially upon his Zelda II version anyway(as he was a combination of multiple games in Smash 64), but he actually has a regular form of jumping otherwise via the Roc's Feather and Roc's Cape, two items that came up later to do more jumping. The way he jumps off ledges is meant to be akin to jumping as normal, and he can jump in the 3D games otherwise via a sidestep hop, a backflip, and a full out jump off a ledge(sometimes with a side flip in Majora's Mask). They clearly do think he can jump, but it's been limited but not impossible, in most games. It's also not an actual characterization feature most of the time. Captain Toad's inability to jump is a very specific feature of the character that defines him consistently. Even characters like Sonic, who can't swim, actually can in some media, making it inconsistent. In addition, Smash actually has him in a drowning animation, acknowledging it to some degree, And now he takes damage, showing his characterization is treated as accurate.

Not saying he can't get in, but it is an important part of the character. Of course it could be as simple as him having beyond awful jumps(even worse than Brawl Ganondorf) too, but people finding the No Jumping thing an important factor are being fair about why it is. Smash is pretty consistent in not screwing with characterization's abilities all that much.

For the record I'm abstaining on both(including no noms or predictions in return on my end), but I've spoke my mind a lot on how I feel Dixie could be, and it always ends with backlash, so I don't feel comfortable making the argument at this point. And by backlash, I mean taking it a bit far instead of not agreeing with the idea in itself, as it seems like it's already read over what the actual point is with barely any exceptions. You've seen it before, so you probably know what I meant. That said, I'm going to bow out cause I'm not going to make a large deal over the Captain Toad thing either. I think pointing out the flaw in your comparison is good enough. It doesn't mean I think he's impossible, but I don't feel he really had a chance to be playable. Not asking anyone to agree with me, and I put up my reasoning on the previous day. For the record, I won't be replying back to any posts related to this, as I'm intending to drop out after the point I brought up. It's also why I'm abstaining overall. I hope you understand why I brought up the flaw. Mind you, I happen to think regular Toad is a better pick myself, but eh.

Ok now I gotta ask, can Olimar jump in his games? I know that when Fox got in he couldn't jump on account of known for exclusively being in his arwing, same with Falcon, so what about Ness, Lucas, Villager, Isabelle, Falco, Piped Piranha Plants and Little Mac? I haven't played Villager's or Ness's games so for them I genuinely don't know, and I only played 5 mins of Pikmin so IDK either, but I do know that Fox wasn't jumping until Adventures, and the most jumping we've ever seen Mac do before being playable was his AT.

I'm not coming after you or anything, but I always thought that "C. Toad can't jump" logic was BS when we're talking about a game that has everyone jump. There was always larger gameplay hurdles and this shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Nquoid]

Solving the problem of Captain Toad not being able to jump seems pretty simple to me. Either he just doesn't wear a backpack in Smash OR you have it part of his moveset that he can't jump when wearing it, but you throw it/use it as a melee weapon or something. Take off the backpack and you can move faster and jump, but at the cost of hitting harder because more weight behind punches.

 

[TillerManX]

Captain Toad
Chance:%20
Want:%50
Reason:Toad is a 1st party. Also, he has a spirit, and appears in a stage so it is slightly low for him to join, but he still may get in
Dixie Kong
Chance:%5
Want:%1
Reason:Dixie does not appeal to my taste of design, but I know people want her in. Also, I am unable to imagine her in the fight as DLC

 

[YoshiandToad]

Regarding Captain Toad not being able to jump: his game has him jump in the ending cutscene at 3:49 and to a lesser extent at 1:51.

So even his damn game everyone claims would be betraying his canon if he leapt has him canonically able to jump a bit.

Not even counting Super Mario Galaxy 2 that has the purple Toad brigade member claim the Captain Wall Jumped after a monkey to get a star.

So Captain Toad canonically has jumped a fair bit...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Ok now I gotta ask, can Olimar jump in his games? I know that when Fox got in he couldn't jump on account of known for exclusively being in his arwing, same with Falcon, so what about Ness, Lucas, Villager, Isabelle, Falco, Piped Piranha Plants and Little Mac? I haven't played Villager's or Ness's games so for them I genuinely don't know, and I only played 5 mins of Pikmin so IDK either, but I do know that Fox wasn't jumping until Adventures, and the most jumping we've ever seen Mac do before being playable was his AT.

I'm not coming after you or anything, but I always thought that "C. Toad can't jump" logic was BS when we're talking about a game that has everyone jump. There was always larger gameplay hurdles and this shouldn't be an issue.

I'll say this again; Captain Toad not being able to jump is something they outright went out of their way to define as important to him. This does not make comparable to characters who don't happen to be able to jump in some games(or at all). It's not an important factor to them at all. So Little Mac can't jump? Where was it a case where they went out of their way to justify why he can't jump. If there's no justification or something behind why the jumping doesn't exist, it's not really something important at all. It's just... not there. It's about as relevant as not seeing lava in Zelda I, for example. It wasn't really something that existed till Zelda II. In fact, to use Jumping as an example, if it was never a thing till the second Zelda game, where it was relevant, as a Spell no less. So they made it important in its own right. In the usual Mario platformers/3D exploration games, jumping is a major tool to your general cast. They went out of their way to make it clear Captain Toad doesn't have that ability to make him stand out in his own way.

It's not really BS if you care about what defines him. I'm not saying they can't ignore the trait either. That'd be silly. I find the trait important myself, but to each their own.

YoshiandToad However, you do bring up a lot some good points here. The game is actually inconsistent about it, despite insisting it's a key trait. Though I think it'd be better if they actually making jumping somewhat unique for him. Like the idea one mentioned about removing his backpack to jump at all, which would actually do a good job at being consistent with his characterization. I was generally for something like using a Cannon to quickly launch him into the air, but that is even more convoluted than quickly taking off his backpack(maybe giving him a few frames before he can actually jump, as a way to keep him interesting as a character). There might be better and fun ideas of jumping besides removing the backpack, but it's hard to say what makes sense outside of an Up B.

I hope that better explains why I feel a lot of the comparisons don't really hold up. It absolutely doesn't mean it's a problem to remove his defining trait either. That's not an argument I'm actually making at all.

 

[ze9]

Honestly, "Captain Toad can't jump" feels like the next "Ridley is too big". They'll just give him a bad jump and that's it. Not like Toad has ever been known for being a particularly good jumper, anyways.
Speaking of which...

Captain Toad
Chance: 5%
He can only happen if they do additional DLC characters. He's more or less one of Nintendo'risng stars at this moment, but there's not too much enthusiasm around him joining Smash, so even in case they do more DLC, they may very well pas him over.
For the next Smash game I'd give him a way higher chance, though. If the Captain Toad series goes on, he (and Toadette as a skin/echo) is a lock.

Want: 80%
To me personally, Smash now has only four holes: Dixie Kong, Skull Kid, Bomberman and (some form of) Toad. So I want him a lot. I've been waiting to play as Toad in Smash for 20 years.
He loses some points, though, because I prefer the plain old vanilla Toad, but at this point I can't see any version of Toad bar the Captain version getting in.

 

[BirthNote]

Verde Coeden Scalesworth they can definitely ignore it, especially since he's been shown jumping before. We can't throw the other examples out the window when jumping is such a basic features in Smash yet Olimar, Villager, and Falcon can't do it in their home series let alone punch. This is a perfectly safe liberty to take with the character that shouldn't even cause people to blink, and is a bigger non-issue than "Ridley's too big".

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Verde Coeden Scalesworth they can definitely ignore it, especially since he's been shown jumping before. We can't throw the other examples out the window when jumping is such a basic features in Smash yet Olimar, Villager, and Falcon can't do it in their home series let alone punch. This is a perfectly safe liberty to take with the character that shouldn't even cause people to blink, and is a bigger non-issue than "Ridley's too big".

Ridley being too big was a problem with his proportions, and something many are hesitant on shrinking him down because it wouldn't feel like Ridley anymore. Sakurai actually noted the "wouldn't feel like Ridley" bit, so he's clearly aware of the character trait. Obviously fan demand was important too in helping getting him playable. In the end, we got a smaller(but still decently big overall as a character, around Bowser's size at least, who is a bigger character in-game) version, but he had to get a new model to do so, showing that size was part of the issue regardless. He was too lanky and hard to balance. There's a reason all the mods were awfully balanced. He needed to be made from scratch to work.

Now, to make it clear why the comparisons aren't all very good; Olimar's ability to jump. Is it mentioned at all within the series why he can't jump? I don't remember them really stating this, but I haven't gotten far among many games, so I'd like that to be explained. That said, if it's not explained, it's not a trait relevant to the character anyway. It's just an option that doesn't exist... because it's not relevant to the gameplay design. That's a case of trying too hard to be accurate to the character, when things simply don't exist. In fact, that's why Captain Falcon can do things like punch or kick as is. He doesn't have anything stating he cannot do any of that, so it's easy to throw it in as is. He was based upon Japanese Superheroes. It appears Kamen Rider is an inspiration, but he never declared which series influenced him anyway. Villager's in-game abilities are defined(which he/she has most of), but where is it said they never could jump? Is this mentioned in the manual? If not, it's not relevant to the character either. If the ability(or lack of ability) is not relevant to the character, then it's simply a different situation from Captain Toad.

Which doesn't change they can easily take liberties and ignore a defining trait a character has to make them work out fine. Which Ridley is a good example of(and so far the only example I remember reading that is actually similar to Captain Toad's).

If I'm unable to make it clear what the difference between a defining trait and "it never came up" is, then I can't really do any better. With that, and while obviously I will not rate them, I'm definitely "done" with this topic. My points are extremely clear in this regard. I don't think I can make it any clearer what the issues with the comparisons are. I mean, I obviously don't support the character, but it doesn't mean I think he's absolutely impossible, not after YoshiandToad's insightful(this isn't sarcasm either. It's a legitimate thing they brought up) explanation of why it ignores canon anyway.

(I had to rewrite that a lot, since it was hard to reduce the paragraph total and still be clear. Sorry if it's too much to read. If you still don't understand my point, eh, fair enough. I won't dwell on it).

 

[GoodGrief741]

Ridley being too big was a problem with his proportions, and something many are hesitant on shrinking him down because it wouldn't feel like Ridley anymore. Sakurai actually noted the "wouldn't feel like Ridley" bit, so he's clearly aware of the character trait. Obviously fan demand was important too in helping getting him playable. In the end, we got a smaller(but still decently big overall as a character, around Bowser's size at least, who is a bigger character in-game) version, but he had to get a new model to do so, showing that size was part of the issue regardless. He was too lanky and hard to balance. There's a reason all the mods were awfully balanced. He needed to be made from scratch to work.

Now, to make it clear why the comparisons aren't all very good; Olimar's ability to jump. Is it mentioned at all within the series why he can't jump? I don't remember them really stating this, but I haven't gotten far among many games, so I'd like that to be explained. That said, if it's not explained, it's not a trait relevant to the character anyway. It's just an option that doesn't exist... because it's not relevant to the gameplay design. That's a case of trying too hard to be accurate to the character, when things simply don't exist. In fact, that's why Captain Falcon can do things like punch or kick as is. He doesn't have anything stating he cannot do any of that, so it's easy to throw it in as is. He was based upon Japanese Superheroes. It appears Kamen Rider is an inspiration, but he never declared which series influenced him anyway. Villager's in-game abilities are defined(which he/she has most of), but where is it said they never could jump? Is this mentioned in the manual? If not, it's not relevant to the character either. If the ability(or lack of ability) is not relevant to the character, then it's simply a different situation from Captain Toad.

Which doesn't change they can easily take liberties and ignore a defining trait a character has to make them work out fine. Which Ridley is a good example of(and so far the only example I remember reading that is actually similar to Captain Toad's).

If I'm unable to make it clear what the difference between a defining trait and "it never came up" is, then I can't really do any better. With that, and while obviously I will not rate them, I'm definitely "done" with this topic. My points are extremely clear in this regard. I don't think I can make it any clearer what the issues with the comparisons are. I mean, I obviously don't support the character, but it doesn't mean I think he's absolutely impossible, not after YoshiandToad's insightful(this isn't sarcasm either. It's a legitimate thing they brought up) explanation of why it ignores canon anyway.

(I had to rewrite that a lot, since it was hard to reduce the paragraph total and still be clear. Sorry if it's too much to read. If you still don't understand my point, eh, fair enough. I won't dwell on it).

The game Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker doesn't actually mention why CT can't jump, either. While it might be mentioned in the manual for the Wii U version (I own it on Switch) it's more of a game mechanic thing that has a basis on the character design, but it's not really brought to the player's attention.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The game Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker doesn't actually mention why CT can't jump, either. While it might be mentioned in the manual for the Wii U version (I own it on Switch) it's more of a game mechanic thing that has a basis on the character design, but it's not really brought to the player's attention.

I'd like to know how it's worded, please.

As someone who doesn't own the games, something as simple as this would be really useful knowledge. Problem earlier is that people used a lot of traits that aren't actually important to the character(or are subverted in their home series or even actually acknowledged outright as important in Smash), so the comparisons pretty much fall flat. "They can take liberties" is a better and more accurate argument at that point.

 

[-crump-]

“Captain Toad can’t jump so he can’t be in Smash” is the new “Ridley is too big”; both silly arguments in the context of Smash, easily worked around with some creativity.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I'd like to know how it's worded, please.

As someone who doesn't own the games, something as simple as this would be really useful knowledge. Problem earlier is that people used a lot of traits that aren't actually important to the character(or are subverted in their home series or even actually acknowledged outright as important in Smash), so the comparisons pretty much fall flat. "They can take liberties" is a better and more accurate argument at that point.

It's not phrased at all.

If I recall, the idea that Captain Toad can't jump because of his heavy backpack was said by a dev in a trailer or an interview. Basically explaining how they came up with the concept of the game: they wanted to make a platformer where you can't jump, and they figured Captain Toad would be a good protagonist due to his heavy backpack. But nothing in the game itself.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It's not phrased at all.

If I recall, the idea that Captain Toad can't jump because of his heavy backpack was said by a dev in a trailer or an interview. Basically explaining how they came up with the concept of the game: they wanted to make a platformer where you can't jump, and they figured Captain Toad would be a good protagonist due to his heavy backpack. But nothing in the game itself.

Ahhhh. Well, at least it's admitted as canon, I guess? Eh. Anyway, thanks.

 

[BowserKing]

Missed a day

Monster Hunter

Chance: 20 to 25%. Rathalos is already representing this franchise, but who knows. We don't have a Monster Hunter Mii Costume in this game yet, giving the character a chance.

Want: 50 to 55%. Would be fun to play. And we already know Rathalos will be the final boss if Monster Hunter has a classic mode.

Morrigan

Chance: 20%. While Capcom is well represented, she could have a chance. Of course, she would be censored a bit, just like quite a bit of fighters and spirits.

Want: 50 to 60%. Another fun character to play as, with some killer moves as well. Of course there still will be censoring, but non the less, could be possible.

Captain Toad

Chance: 10 to 25%. He is a evolved spirit and appeared in a few stages, but he is quite popular and his recent would help out with the odds.

Want: 60 to 65%. Steve is higher on my list of my most wanted fighters, but Captain Toad would be fun to play. Toadette would be a fun echo as well, allowing more variety of characters to play.

Dixie Kong

Chance: 20 to 30%. She was considered for Brawl as Diddy Kong's Partner, but it did not happen. She is also a spirit that can evolve (Somewhat), but her chances could rise in the future.

Want: 100%. Given the inclusion of echoes and King K.Rool in the game, Dixie Kong would be a fun character to play as, with her most likely being an echo-fight of Diddy Kong. She would also complete the used to be scrapped characters group ((64), (64 and Melee), (64 and Brawl), (Melee), Dixie Kong, and (Brawl)

Noms: 2 for Concept: Pokeball Pokémon Promotion and 3 for Adeleine

 

[Sid-cada]

Captain Toad

Chance - 0.25% - With the most likely being entirely third party lineup, this doesn't seem likely at all. He makes a ton of sense as a base roster pick, but now? He's outcompeted.

Want - 85% - As Bandanna Dee is my most wanted character, it'd be a bit hypocritical to not support him, right? While I'm not exactly crazy wild about him, he feels like he should have been added in a long time ago.


Dixie Kong

Chance - 0.05% - While she might get in as an echo, I don't see it. I feel the majority of fans are already mostly satisfied with Banjo, and there is little hope for a Nintendo character anyway.

Want - 50% - Eh. I respect her place, but I'm not exactly enthused by what she can do. I don't hate her, but I simply don't care about her.


Predictions

Lloyd - 49.35% - Namco need another character in many eyes...
Yuri - 12.42% - Competing with Lloyd...

Nominations

Cadence X5

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Day over.

Rate Lloyd Irving and Yuri Lowell from Tales of. Each one; not a single score.

Predict Rayman and Ezio (AC)