Quick Question, Quick Answer Thread

[phi1ny3]

There's two ways you can platform cancel:
-down + shield at just the right time that you pass through a platform (going up of course) after you jump
-same thing as the above, but shield can be replaced w/ A or C-stick as well.

edit: you can also do an air dodge variation.

 

[Remzi]

You don't have to platform cancel into a shield.

Just be holding down on the analog as you pass through a moving platform, then release down right as your feet get to the bottom of the platform. Timing is different for each character. From that point you an do anything you want.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Long Friggin Explanation I Gave

Jab1
Subaction Main0x48
@149F8

-----------|START|--------------------------
Asynchronous Timer - Frames=2.00x,
Offensive Collision - Bone/ID=0x230000, Damage=0x2, Trajectory=0x169, Base Knockback=0xA0064, Knockback Growth=0x0, Size=4.00x, Z Offset=4.00x, Y Offset=0.00x, X Offset=0.00x, Tripping Rate=0.00x, Hitlag Multiplier=1.00x, SDI Multiplier=1.00x, Hitbox Flags=0x39030200,
Offensive Collision - Bone/ID=0x220001, Damage=0x2, Trajectory=0x169, Base Knockback=0xA0064, Knockback Growth=0x0, Size=3.00x, Z Offset=1.20x, Y Offset=0.00x, X Offset=0.00x, Tripping Rate=0.00x, Hitlag Multiplier=1.00x, SDI Multiplier=1.00x, Hitbox Flags=0x39030200,
Offensive Collision - Bone/ID=0x410002, Damage=0x2, Trajectory=0x169, Base Knockback=0xA0064, Knockback Growth=0x0, Size=3.00x, Z Offset=0.00x, Y Offset=0.00x, X Offset=0.00x, Tripping Rate=0.00x, Hitlag Multiplier=1.00x, SDI Multiplier=1.00x, Hitbox Flags=0x39030200,
Asynchronous Timer - Frames=3.00x,
Terminate Collisions
Asynchronous Timer - Frames=7.00x,
Bit Variable Set - RA-Bit[16],
Asynchronous Timer - Frames=12.00x,
Bit Variable Set - RA-Bit[22],
Asynchronous Timer - Frames=19.00x,
Allow Interrupt
----------------------------|END|-----------

First of all, let me clear up any possible confusion. THIS IS NOT ANIMATION FRAME DATA. I cannot stress this enough. Many people misinterpret it as being, say, animation start on F2, and animation end on F19, but that's not the case. This is strictly about hitboxes. When they come out, and how long they restrict other actions, etc.

Secondly, as I said before, I'm not very fluent in OSA/PSA/w/e, so I'm going to try and not focus on frame data, I'm going to focus on explaining bit variables, etc.

Anyhow...

Geek-to-layman translation:

Startup lag for two frames. The asynchronous timer in the beginning is telling us how many frames it has for start, and since these programs spit out "different" frame counts, it gets confusing when you reach the hitboxes.

"Offfensive collision" is the technical term for hitbox. All the data following the offensive collision is VERY complicated, so I'm not even going to get into that right now. Feel free to ask me about it though if you really want to sate your curiosity. All that's useful for now is that Sonic's Jab1 has 3 hitboxes.

Now, this is where it gets trippy. It says asynchronous timer - frames=3.00x, and after that it says terminate collisions, no? Well, this is what I'm talking about when I say "different" frames. What this means is that the hitboxes are out only on frame three, and are terminated on that frame. Thus, no more hitboxes on frame 4.

And here is the meat of this discussion. There is an asynchronous timer with Bit Variable Set - RA-Bit[16]. This means that bit 16, the flow bit, is set on frame 7. Now, this is the Geek definition of Bit 16:

RABit 16 = if hit and button held OR if button press goto next jab in sequence

Now the layman's translation:

Spoiler

So now, for Jab1, we know that if you whiff it and release A, pressing A again on F1-F6 won't do anything. However, pressing A again on F7-F23 will initiate Jab2. Or, if you connect and hold A, Jab2 will auto-start on frame 7.

After that, we see another asynchronous timer, and Bit Variable Set - RA-Bit[22]. This is what I like to call the quick bit. A lot of jabs have this bit, notably Squirtle, Mario, Snake, etc.

Geek:

RABit 22 = if button press goto jabx1

Layman:

If button is held to bit set frame, jab1 will start on next frame on whiff.

So with Sonic, if you whiff a jab and hold A up to F12, the next frame jab1 will repeat itself. That is, input on frame 0, hold A from F1-F12, keep A held on F12, advance to next frame. If A isn't held on F12, or if A is released any time before F13, even if you press and hold it again, you won't repeat jab1.

The last asynchronous timer indicates from where IASA begins. So say you press and release a jab whiff, if you are holding down throughout-until and/or during F19, on F20 the crouch animation will start.

Finally, something to note: if you whiff a jab and release A, pressing it anytime during F7 to during F23, you will jab2. It's not until F24 that you can press A again to jab1. RA Bit 16 "locks" you until F23 if you press and release whiff.

I'm sorry for the ranting explanation, I just felt it would be good to explain a lot. I.e. I got carried away. :C

I'm confident I got my stuff right, though I'd just like some of you that are better versed in OSA to double check frame stuff for me.

Also Snake's jab1 is totally trippy.

 

[Luxor]

You said that was for Sonic? Looks good to me. Jabs are such a pain.

 

[Yikarur]

what does whiff mean? D:

 

[KayLo!]

Whiffing is missing with a move.

 

[Yikarur]

k thanks

I'm looking through google docs and there are a lot of colored colums.
I would prefer that there is a color key or something like that so that I know what the color's meanings are.
like I got a green stripe beside my name and there are some yellow onces, some names are red etc D:

 

[phi1ny3]

hey can someone do a "frame breakdown" of a strutter stepped fsmash, instant boost pivot grab, or instant dash attack looks? I know that dash for most comes out on frame 10, but I got a request about it and frankly these are all kind of helpful pertaining to my focused character, and it seems faster when one does a boost pivot grab/instant dash attack than the sum of the dash + the attack/grab's hitbox generation

@ Bengals good to know, I was toying around with platform canceling just a few hours ago lol.

 

[Pikabunz]

For stutter-step fsmash, you can interrupt with fsmash during any of the first 6 frames of your dash.

0 - Standing
1 - Dash
2 - ^
3 - ^
4 - ^
5 - ^
6 - Fsmash <--- The latest you can fsmash.

If you were to try to Fsmash on the 7th frame, you would dash attack.



The earliest you can dash attack from a standing position is during the 2nd frame of your dash.

0 - Standing
1 - Dash
2 - Dash attack

If you were to buffer a dash attack out of something, then the dash attack would come out on the 1st frame instead.



Instant boost pivot grabs

0 - Standing
1 - Dash
2 - Dash attack
3 - Back + Grab (Pivot grab)

Again, if you use buffering, you can make the boost pivot grab come out on the 1st frame instead of the 3rd.

 

[KayLo!]

If you were to buffer a dash attack out of something, then the dash attack would come out on the 1st frame instead.

How do you buffer a dash attack out of something?

Wouldn't you have to buffer a dash, then attack on the first dash frame? Or are you just calling that buffering a dash attack for the sake of simplicity?

 

[Pikabunz]

The way I do it is during the buffer frames I flick the control stick forward and press down on the c-stick. This will make dash attack come out on the very first frame.

 

[KayLo!]

Ah, ok. Didn't know that worked.

 

[Yikarur]

Question:
If you catch a banane with a short aerial you're able to buffer another aerial instead of a throw.
why?
I tested it a bit.
If you catch the grounded banane on the first frame of the aerial and the aerial lasts a maximum of 38 frames you can buffer an aerial, if the aerial lasts longer than 38 frames you buffer the throw. (tested with Yoshis uair (lasts 38 frames) and Yoshis bair (lasts 39) and other aerials that lasts less long.
Next I tested if it is the aerial length that matters or the fact that you have to hold a banana 39 frames until you buffer throw.

I caught a banane on the second frame of Yoshis bair so the rest duration of bair is now 38 frames like uair and he threw the banana! (same result for grab on third frame of bair)
next I tested again with uair (caught on third frame of uair) and I buffered an aerial. (I did the tests multiple times with different buffer window inputs to be 100% sure)


ideas?

 

[phi1ny3]

The way I do it is during the buffer frames I flick the control stick forward and press down on the c-stick. This will make dash attack come out on the very first frame.

Yeah imo this is really good for characters like sheik and snake who punish tons of stuff w/ Dash attack. Great for Lucario though, b/c I've been looking at some of my options regarding this b/c of uthrow and it's potential (it gives you a frame advantage of +9, which is pretty nice)

That gives Lucario like:
8 frames for buffered DA (11 for DA2 which can give you a free grab/utilt)
11 frames for buffered boost pivot grab
jab/utilt/ftilt (already kind of used after) which are the most guaranteed
FP grab
uthrow CG (on like 5 chars)

and now I know that strutterstep has the speed to avoid common stuff coming back down, making this a great frame trap (yay!)

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Question:
If you catch a banane with a short aerial you're able to buffer another aerial instead of a throw.
why?
I tested it a bit.
If you catch the grounded banane on the first frame of the aerial and the aerial lasts a maximum of 38 frames you can buffer an aerial, if the aerial lasts longer than 38 frames you buffer the throw. (tested with Yoshis uair (lasts 38 frames) and Yoshis bair (lasts 39) and other aerials that lasts less long.
Next I tested if it is the aerial length that matters or the fact that you have to hold a banana 39 frames until you buffer throw.

I caught a banane on the second frame of Yoshis bair so the rest duration of bair is now 38 frames like uair and he threw the banana! (same result for grab on third frame of bair)
next I tested again with uair (caught on third frame of uair) and I buffered an aerial. (I did the tests multiple times with different buffer window inputs to be 100% sure)


ideas?

Since you're doing an aerial, it probably doesn't check to see if you have the item in hand before doing the action. Since you're buffering it, you're not going into a fall state, so it's still not checking if you have the item.
I'm not sure about that, but knowing how a lot of stuff works, it's my best bet. (I could probably check for this in fighter.pac, but I don't feel like it and you should also learn how to do so too )

 

[Yikarur]

did you read my whole post? D:
if the aerial is 38 frames long it's an aerial, 39 frames it's an item throw.
so the "fall state" doesn't occur in both but in one I aerial, in the other I throw.

 

[Kinzer]

Can anybody tell me if a character that throws an item that is not unique to them (example, Sheik getting a hold of R.O.B.'s Gyro) will have their moveset refreshed for that one tally, or if it will refresh the opponents tally instead?

... Meh, I'm not sure how to word that any better, I hope you can still understand my question.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm pretty certain that specific directional item tosses are "legitimate" moves. So the short answer is that Sheik refreshes her own moveset.

If I'm not mistaken, character item toss strength and item properties are involved in the power of item tosses and the item itself is not tied to any particular movepool. Ganondorf and Jigglypuff for example have item tosses that do below average damage if I recall, so that would tell me that item tosses definitely have their own unique movepool position.

In Home Run Contest (where stale moves is also a concern), I believe one of the things advanced players do there is they try to use all directions of item disposal for juggling the Sandbag.

By the way I came in and saw stuff about Stutter Step F-smashes. I would like to add that Ganon, Falcon, Sonic, and Mario's reverse F-smashes gain range from a completely different mechanic. On those characters, they have leanback on their F-smashes that physically changes their registered location. When you do a reverse F-smash on the first frame possible (you do not expend a frame turning around when doing a C stick F-smash or a perfect F-smash input), I believe the game still has you registered as facing the direction you originally were facing, and thus makes you lean back in the direction you would normally were you facing that way. And then by the time the game registers the charge animation, you have already moved the wrong direction but the game at that point registers you facing the other way, and then your attack continues as normal, featuring not just the range from leaning back forward, but the distance gained from incorrect slideback.

 

[T-block]

Confirming that it is added to your own stale moves queue. Once you take possession of an item, it is considered yours, regardless of the original source.

 

[Kinzer]

Forgive me, but there was a second part to my last question that I had completely forgotten about until Susa reminded me of the variable(s).

Learned something new myself now. This same concept would apply to Link and TL's bombs? Correct?

Now I have a question for you and for you to share with the SL.

What happens if a projectile is reflected via a reflecting move (Pit's Side-B/Down-B, Falco/Fox/Wolf's Down-B, Mario's cape, you get the point by now....)?

Does it count for the reflector? Or does it count for the person who first shot the thing reflected?

As a contiuation of said question; what happens in the event of a counter move? (marth/ike/lucario) Does the move stale for the enemy whom is being countered or does it act like a "ghost hit" and just trigger the counter?

I'm interested in these... especially the reflector one...

[Lalalala... wish my wii wasn't a brick currently]

Does anybody know about the former-most? If not, I can look into this myself, I just want to make sure I'm not wasting my time looking into it myself when/if somebody else has it already figured out.

The second one didn't originally concern me since Sonic himself doesn't have a reflector or a projectile save for Spring, but I guess I could look into this too, personally because I myself could use this information in doubles with certain characters; however I know others that play different characters/characters this applies to would highly benefit from such knowledge.

And about the counter attacks, I could do that easily, but again I want to ask beforehand.

@Susa

... Oh my God. XD

I didn't even think about that. Explosives. I was curious about that too but I forgot about that. Oey, they're a multi-purpose projectile.

I think I could actually figure that out myself. If I need to ask for the SL's assistance I'll ask but otherwise this is a project I could very well do on my own given enough patience.

... Tomorrow though. Tonight, I dine, in PRE-CALCULUS HOMEWORK! >_<

I can tell you now though, I won't be able to specifically find out whether or not it's a reflector tally or otherwise. Given enough time, I'll be able to at least tell whether or not whose moveset gets refreshed or not.

I'll need to gather some numbers beforehand though, like how much damage the bombs do upon explosion, the dummies' attack (though for simplicity's sake I may just use Sonic as the dummy/dummies since I already know his damage data by heart (almost)), and preferably doing this from 0%, because if the character dies it just refreshes their entire move set and defeats the purpose. Stupid invisible decimal figures.

Just my response to the guy. Probably safe to disregard if you want to tl;dr this post.

 

[Yikarur]

Bombs count in the same way as any other projectile.

neither the reflector nor the projectile get on the stale list not even if the reflected projectile hit a third one.

If a move gets countered it counts as hitting an invincible enemy so it doesn't count for the stale list.

 

[Kinzer]

1. Upon exploding, or coming into contact?

No wait, I'm thinking Snake's grenades, which are on a timer, or explode if hit by a hitbox, so that will have its own thing. Bombs... are weird, but as a general rule for me; if they come into contact with a hurtbox, then they explode. I think me asking a question about this will fall into the next paragraph, so:

I'm just trying to think whether or not if the bomb is caught (or perhaps in this case isn't thrown at all and Link/T.Link just hold on to it and let the fuse burn) if it will refresh the stale list of the person holding on to it, or the person who spawned it regardless of current ownership.

2. Thank you.

3. Oh, I didn't know that. Cool.

 

[Yikarur]

If you catch the bomb you are the owner from that moment on and if you hit yourself with a bomb the bomb doesn't get a place on the stale list because if you hit yourself the attack doesn't get on the stale list.

same applies to grenades. (grenade touch and grenade explode are 2 different moves on the list)

 

[Pikabunz]

Okay, I found something weird.

Let's say there's an MK at 50% and I dthrow him with Pikachu giving me an 8 frame advantage so I can just hit him with a guaranteed nair (7 frames). MK can't aerial, jump, or air dodge till that 9th frame. But when I do this to Squirtle, he can aerial out like 5 frames earlier than the MK would, so I only have a 3 frame advantage on him after the dthrow. The weird thing is that this is only for his aerials. I still get that 8 frame advantage if he tries to jump or air dodge. Another weird thing is that Squirtle can't buffer an aerial out of this hit stun. Can anyone explain all this?

 

[Yikarur]

you can cancel hitstun in frame 14 with an airdodge and in frame 26 with an aerial.
You described frame 26 with squirtle, you can't jump because you're still in hitstun.
Hitstun cancel cannot be buffered.
I cannot tell you why you can't airdodge though but a lot of attacks have that proberty that prevents your hitstun to be cancelled by airdodge, (like Yoshis first hit bair up until ~120% (ofc character depending)

 

[Pikabunz]

That only applies when you're in the tumbling hitstun. And that wouldn't explain why Squirtle can do it and MK can't. Also the frame difference from when Squirtle can aerial and when he can air dodge is like 5 frames, so it's nothing like what you said.

 

[Yikarur]

look
when you dthrow and from the first frame of MK he has a true hitstun until about frame 25, MK is about to return to neutral stance from frame 26 (the frame where you could cancel your hitstun, so you're no longer in the hitstun itself in that moment. (I don't know how to say that technical xD))

Same applies to Squirtle if you use 40% instead of 50% for Pikas dthrow, at about frame 25 the hitstun itself worse of and he is going to return to neutral stance.

 

[Pikabunz]

Okay, never mind, I wasn't really paying attention to what I was doing. I didn't see that Squirtle goes into tumbling at 50%.

I got another one.

I dthrow MK with Pika at 0%. Pikachu has a 4 advantage here so if MK buffers a jump during the hitstun, it will come out on the 5th frame. But when MK buffers an aerial or air dodge, it comes out on the 7th frame. He can aerial or air dodge of the 5th frame, but just not from a buffer. Why is that?

 

[SuSa]

Has there been any research into this confusing mess of an AT?

I know there has been research on SJR, but this isn't quite that... I have a feeling it's a glitch caused by the momentum of PK Fire combined with a double jump (I feel the momentum is multiplied for some reason with that of the double jump)

PS: Other moves appear to follow this momentum boost when used with a second jump. If you do this same glitch with Ness's PK Fire he gets this weird boost up+forward. I know there are a few other moves, but this is the only one I can pull up out of memory.

@K-Prime
If I'm understanding you correctly, you can buffer a jump, aerial, or air dodge but the aerial and air dodge are delayed by 2 frames?

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Inb4are-sigh

That's oooooolllllllddddd stuff. Like late '08-early '09 old.

So for the PK fire thing, which is called a zap jump, you input PK Fire either on the same frame of your dj, or exactly one frame after. PK Fire has a weird quality that stops, or rather, slows the decay of momentum for a while. So, when you use it immediately after a dj, the momentum decay is weakened, which causes lucas to continue rising until gravity reestablishes its grip on him. However, the is considering you're a suficient height off the ground; I've found that it you buffer a dj from, say, a ledge getup, you can input PK fire after the buffer so it cancels your dj, putting you into landing animation/lag.

The same principles apply to the magnet thingy, except magnet sort of amplifies momentum. Try it. Dash into a sh and magnet immediately. That, coupled with pk fire's decay slow down and push, causes the bounce.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

are-sigh... *sigh*

Yeah, it's caused by Lucas' momentum for his double jump being changed based on the PK Fire. Instead of dampening the effect of the double jump, it mulitplies it. It is done one frame after the double jump is initiated.

The magnet pull, is one of the great things that makes his recovery even better. xD
What you described is what we call magnet dashing. Since it seemed similar to wave dashing, and you can b-reverse and all.

 

[SuSa]

Hey, I didn't manage to see it in my quick run through the threads. :x Sorry... haha

But thank's for confirming that at least my speculation was correct.

(I knew it was one frame after, but was uncertain if the reasoning of why it was caused was ever researched. I figured it would be relatively basic, but I couldn't find anything on it)

EDIT:

Considering Kinzer asked those questions partially due to my inquiry, I wanted a better explanation on controlling enemy projectiles.

If you hurt yourself with the bomb, it doesn't count towards a stale move list. However - what happens if I hit an opponent? Whose stale list would it be applied to? Mine or theirs? I'm assuming mine, since it's now under my control, but I just wanted to clarify.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

are-sigh... *sigh*

Yeah, it's caused by Lucas' momentum for his double jump being changed based on the PK Fire. Instead of dampening the effect of the double jump, it mulitplies it. It is done one frame after the double jump is initiated.

The magnet pull, is one of the great things that makes his recovery even better. xD
What you described is what we call magnet dashing. Since it seemed similar to wave dashing, and you can b-reverse and all.

Yeah, I was just using magnet dashing as an example to illustrate what I meant when I was refering to magnet's "momentum amplifying" effects. Couldn't find the right words ha ha.

 

[Yikarur]

are-sigh... *sigh*

Yeah, it's caused by Lucas' momentum for his double jump being changed based on the PK Fire.

it's actually a double jump cancel mechanique.
In Brawl a Double Jump Cancel can only occur by item throw and a special.
Yoshi Ness and Lucas can double jump cancel because their double jump has a special momentum.
Yoshis double jump cancel get's an instant fall because it has no upward momentum in the first frames. He holds the momentum he has in the moment of the cancel.
Lucas double jump has an instant upward momentum in the first frame of his double jump and if you cancel his double jump in that frame he hold the momentum of the first frame and gets an insane upward boost.
The momentum is not based on the PK Fire but he can't do this with other specials because the specials have all their own momentum abilities. But you can do it with an item toss which kinda proves my point.

 

[SuSa]

I totally forgot the item toss.. remember them finding that out against Diddy using his bananas....

Good point Yikarur.

 

[Yikarur]

we all know replay only contain input.
so would it be somehow possible to look into the replay data via hex editor or something like that and to read inputs there with an enormous amount ot hex skill?
I'm pissed that I'm able to do stuff in normal game but don't get it to work in frame advance ;___;

 

[rPSIvysaur]

it's actually a double jump cancel mechanique.
In Brawl a Double Jump Cancel can only occur by item throw and a special.
Yoshi Ness and Lucas can double jump cancel because their double jump has a special momentum.
Yoshis double jump cancel get's an instant fall because it has no upward momentum in the first frames. He holds the momentum he has in the moment of the cancel.
Lucas double jump has an instant upward momentum in the first frame of his double jump and if you cancel his double jump in that frame he hold the momentum of the first frame and gets an insane upward boost.
The momentum is not based on the PK Fire but he can't do this with other specials because the specials have all their own momentum abilities. But you can do it with an item toss which kinda proves my point.

Basically what I was saying, I was just keeping it TL;DR.
And Ness also has a zap jump.

 

[SuSa]

Can anyone make sense of Squirtle's Pummel data? (Pretty sure it's his... not Fushiergu or Lizardon or w/e... :s)

SubAction 70 | CatchAttack

There's no way it's 1 frame......

 

[rPSIvysaur]

the bit is never set in it, so therefore you have to wait out the animation.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Can someone tell me where I can find EVERYTHING I need to know to flawlessly create my own custom hitbubble PAC files? Provided I have spare time, I'm going to do that for Mario, and I am vaguely aware that there are issues concerning things like expanding bones (Mario has quite a few of these I'm certain) that are supposed to make the process less than brain dead easy for some moves. So yeah. Direct me to where I can learn my necessary information.