Quick Question, Quick Answer Thread

[A2ZOMG]

I want to learn how to read specials and throws.

So. Freaking. Bad.

What part of it? I mean this could be easy for me to answer or very difficult depending on what you're looking at. I learned a lot of stuff through trial and error and looking at the changelists on Balanced Brawl and using comparison to the edited PAC files.

As for the important details on throws (under subactions in PSA), every throw seems to use two throw collision lines, but the first line is the most important.

On that line, these parameters stick out:
Parameter 2: damage
Parameter 3: angle
Parameter 4: Growth
Parameter 6: Base

Plus many throws will have extra hits that add damage to the throw, but do not do any knockback to the thrown opponent (but can hit people next to you when you throw). Fox and Falco's projectile based throws generate articles, and if you want to edit the properties of the shots they fire, you would either add/remove instances of generated articles, or you would use OSA2 to find the subroutine offset for the projectile that is used in throws and then manually edit their special offensive collisions like you would for any other attack (I believe those articles are called "FlyThrow" for Fox and Falco).

Mario and Luigi in specific are the only characters with throw collisions on their "ThrownB" subactions, which is basically the attack you get from hitting someone with the person you're swinging around when B-throwing. Keep in mind, Wario's F-throw definitely doesn't have a "ThrownF" throw collision. The only thing I don't get yet is the difference between subactions "ThrownB" and "ThrownDxB".

I'm pretty sure those are the things people MOST care about. I'm too lazy to research the other stuff at the moment.

Throws are much easier to read on OSA2 if you haven't checked.

^This.

I have a theory that might make AS a little better and I wanna check it.

I want you to tell me, since I'm working on ideas for Balanced Brawl. And I've been doing experiments with a lot of characters, Lucario included.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Who knows much about this? http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=288991

 

[SuSa]

Look at K-Prime's answer. It's just one way of buffering a dash from shield, I prefer to time it within the 7 frames of shield drop. <_< Not hard to buffer it after releasing L.....

 

[phi1ny3]

disregard post

 

[thexsunrosered]

AH THE SOCIAL THREAD
twas locked

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Yeah, there goes rPSI abusing his mod powers again...

 

[Yikarur]

Look at K-Prime's answer. It's just one way of buffering a dash from shield, I prefer to time it within the 7 frames of shield drop. <_< Not hard to buffer it after releasing L.....

we know what it does but it is more interessting how that exactly works.

Brawl Mechanique is so interesting


well this works becauseof the way the game reads the input.
if the c-stick is flicked the controlstick input is ignored for one frame.

So if you hold the controlstick in one direction and then put the c-stick in another direction the game read the input like this:
HOlding Left
Tap down for one frame
mash the stick to the side (which initiates the dash)

YOu can use this also with smashDI

if you are in hitlag and hold the stick in one direction and then flick the c-stick in another direction you will sdi like this if you hold left and tap up on the c-stick
left (COntrolstick input)
up (C-Stick Input)
Left again because the game things you reflick the Controlstick left

I like that mechanique.

 

[SuSa]

Have we discovered the "falling through stages" glitches yet?

I know Lucas can PK Thunder through yoshi's island (brawl)
I know MK can drill his way into Halberd.
I know if a character shields during certain transitions of Delfino, they fall through the stage. I think this also applies to Castle Seige.

 

[thexsunrosered]

yep
10yessirs

 

[Indigo Jeans]

K, so I'm curious.

I'm doing TL's data, and I reached FTilt. Now, we know FTilt is listed as action 50 - AttackS3S, and usually, if a character lacks an action, there is N/A after the action's ID.

Well, Upward-titled FTilt is 4F, and afaik, TL can't tilt his FTilt. But, you can check out 4F, and it says Goto - Offset=@15A38. What exactly are offsets/where can I find them in OSA? I'm just curious and wish to expand my knowledge on the subject.

Edit: It also has an offset for downward-tilted FTilt, which is 15@38 as well.

Edit2: Also, FSmash2 has 4 hitboxes, all of which are Special Offensive Collisions. I'd like to know moar about those too.:leek:

 

[phi1ny3]

"Offset" is found in the little text centered above the text box that contains the timers/events, but below the "subaction" and "event list" dropdown columns, and left of "Command Count".

In other words, it's telling you to redirect towards the offset 15A38, which is TL ftilt (regular).

I'm sure the special offensive collisions are alluding to the nature of the fsmash2, since fsmash1 has the RA-bit 16 variables which are unique to Link/TL smash-wise, and let it swing into the next hit.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Special Offensive Collisions honestly aren't any different from regular collisions. Except there are 2 more lines of 8 digits to add flag values, and if you don't fill those in correctly, your attack isn't going to hit anything since hittable properties are actually one of the things that can be changed on Special Offensive Collisions. I don't think Toon Link's F-smash2 is anything special in particular, so I think it's just a Special Offensive Collision for the sake of being one.

I forget where flag values are explained, but I think Toomai created that topic.

Offsets are fun. In order to find article offsets, use OSA2 (always maximize the window when the program opens, then to find offset values look in the lower region and in the center of the screen). Copy the offset number you find, and if you want to edit it on PSA, paste that number under Sub-Routines. Virtually all articles that are used as attacks have some kind of special offensive collision generally speaking.

At any rate, I managed to crack Ganon's D-smash (why it pulls people towards him on block and why it changes the direction you are facing) thanks to learning how Special Offensive Collisions work. And what's even better is that my newest test build for Ganondorf now makes his Dash Attack work with the properties of his D-smash.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Alright guys, thanks for the help.

Now, uh, I've got another question.

I'm doing TL's standing grab, and I can interpret the data, but Idk when it loses the grabbox.


Subaction Main0x6C
@17E20

-----------|START|--------------------------
Asynchronous Timer - Frames=6.00x, 
Generate Article/Prop - 0x4, 
Generate Article/Prop - 0x5, 
Asynchronous Timer - Frames=11.00x, 
?Article Visibility2? - Article ID=0x4, 0x1, 
Change Article Subaction - Article ID=0x5, ID=0x0, 
Grab Collision - ID=0x0, Bone=0x52, Size=2.80x, Z Offset=0.00x, Y Offset=0.00x, X Offset=0.00x, Grabbed Action=0x3D, Air/Ground=0x1, 
Grab Collision - ID=0x1, Bone=0x3C, Size=1.50x, Z Offset=0.00x, Y Offset=0.00x, X Offset=0.00x, Grabbed Action=0x3D, Air/Ground=0x3, 
Grab Collision - ID=0x2, Bone=0x3C, Size=4.00x, Z Offset=0.00x, Y Offset=0.00x, X Offset=0.00x, Grabbed Action=0x3D, Air/Ground=0x1, 
Subroutine - gameAnimCmd_CaptureCutCommonOffset=@17FBC, 
Synchronous Timer - Frames=8.00x, 
!Collision-0D! 060D0000
Asynchronous Timer - Frames=54.00x, 
!Article-08! 10080200 - 0x4, 0x3, 
Change Article Subaction - Article ID=0x5, ID=0x1, 
Asynchronous Timer - Frames=78.00x, 
Remove Article - 0x4, 
Remove Article - 0x5, 
----------------------------|END|-----------

F7 the hookshot is generated, F12 the grabboxes appear, and I assume it goes limp on F55. But I don't know where it says "end the grabboxes".

 

[rPSIvysaur]

!Collision-0D! 060D0000

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I thought so, but I wasn't sure. It seemed likely since it's conspicuously out of place and it has a collision marker on it. Thanks.

 

[thexsunrosered]

do you guys know who I talk to to become a mod? A name is fine, I can find my way from there.

 

[KayLo!]

You can't ask to become a mod.... they ask you. Asking or making it extremely obvious that you want to be one is one of the quickest ways to ruin your chances.

 

[phi1ny3]

^This is soooooooooo true lol.

Be the best contributer you can be, and you'll get up there I guess.

Hard to do on the Sheik boards though, so much analytical shenanigans going on there.

 

[KayLo!]

Where should we put/mention miscellaneous frame testing that we do? Stuff we might do for character boards or whatever.

I don't want y'all (read: rPSI ) thinking I'm not doing Lab stuff just because it's not posted back here. Besides that, I dunno, maybe it's data that other Lab people might find interesting. (I doubt it though since most of it's about Zelda, lol.)

We should have a random dump thread or something......

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Admittingly, I also have done very little recently. School can really bog me down sometimes. I plan being able to be active again after my next tournament, which is on the 30th, but as of now, I'm on a work break.

 

[thexsunrosered]

^This is soooooooooo true lol.

Be the best contributer you can be, and you'll get up there I guess.

Hard to do on the Sheik boards though, so much analytical shenanigans going on there.

how did you know I was talking about the sheik boards lol

 

[KayLo!]

Admittingly, I also have done very little recently. School can really bog me down sometimes. I plan being able to be active again after my next tournament, which is on the 30th, but as of now, I'm on a work break.

Good, so I don't have to worry about getting fired.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Speaking of random data dumps... I really should update my Misc. Frame Data thread lol.

 

[Yikarur]

do it o: nobody hinders you

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Nobody except Procrastination.

 

[KayLo!]

I suck at reading OSA2.

Can someone tell me how to read damage/trajectory? -_- If it says something like Damage=0xC, wtf does that mean? Or Trajectory=0x5A?

 

[phi1ny3]

which moves?

 

[KayLo!]

The examples I gave were from Zelda's dash attack, but I've seen similar notation for a lot of her moves. I'd like to know how to read them in general. =\

 

[Yikarur]

I suck at reading OSA2.

Can someone tell me how to read damage/trajectory? -_- If it says something like Damage=0xC, wtf does that mean? Or Trajectory=0x5A?

you can't read hex? use a hex translator. Windows Calculator has that option inherent.


1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 39 40
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A B C D E F 10 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 1A 1B 1C 1D 1E 1F 20

and so on.

so Damage=0xC is 12


if you use PSA Hex Numbers are automatically tranlated.

 

[KayLo!]

No, I can't read hex lol. Coding and anything like that is beyond me.... I can do math and frame advance stuff. That's about it. x.x

Thanks for the help, Yika! (I love that researchers are on at all hours. <3)

 

[Yikarur]

I think you know how to find the calculator (start, all programs etc)


then you do View > programmer (or scientific, I think it depends on your windows version, I remember to use scientific earlier but now I have a programmer option I've never had before D: Win7 <3! xD)
and there you can type in a number/a letter and switch between hex and dez.
Easy =D

 

[KayLo!]

Yeah, I figured it out. Thanks again!

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Aw man, thanks Yika. It... had actually never occurred to me that those values were hex lol.... I'm more of a binary kind of guy.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

1A damage sounds so binary to me.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

0100001001101001011011100110000101110010011110010010000001100010011100100110111100101110

 

[phi1ny3]

In a normal ground release (we're not counting outliers like Ness/Lucas or DK), are there any frames of advantage given to anyone? I was thinking about Marth's grab frame trap on Lucario where he forces him to roll/spotdodge, and I was wondering this, because if so, I think I know an awesome kill setup (not guaranteed but has a lot of frame trap stuff).

 

[Pierce7d]

Bowser (and I think Charizard) get a bonus when they release.

DK gets a bonus when released.

Ness, Lucas get penalties when released.

I believe everyone else is normal. Ground breaks are 30 vs 30 frames, and airbreaks are 30 vs 50 frames.

Marth's release on Lucario is only special because Lucario's options at close range are garbage (frame 6 jab, frame 5 Utilt, grab doesn't have enough range to grab Marth, but Marth's has enough range to regrab Lucario)

 

[phi1ny3]

okay, so it's an even break normally. Thanks Pierce!

Yeah Bowser gets like -10 when he releases someone. I don't think Charizard does, it's just that his grab range is rather huuuge (like second biggest non-tether grab iirc) but I could be wrong.

DK gets a -10 when released iirc.

Ness/Lucas get +10 when released (sadface)

Yeah, that's the main reason for it working so well v. Lucario. Why did they have to make his moves so slow!?

coolsies, I think I've got a situational kill idea (borrowed it from someone who used to use it).

Won't work on Marth/MK/Snake which annoys me (actually, I'm probably discounting too soon, but it most likely won't lol).

I'm so glad K Prime told me about the frame breakdown of strutterstep, buffered strutterstep is imo pretty good.

 

[Kinzer]

Squirtle happens to have a 1-frame difference when he grab-releases somebody.

Other than that, and the obvious DK/Bowser and Ness/Lucas outliers, I think everybody follows the standard.

 

[Pikabunz]

Everyone gets a 1 frame advantage when they grab release. The only reason Squirtle can gr>jab is because his jab is 1 frame. ZSS can do the same thing since her jab is 1 frame too.