Quick Question, Quick Answer Thread

[hotgarbage]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVs_j3X9k10

any idea how that works?

I know Falco has a wind hitbox at the end of his rapid jab, perhaps Sheik does as well?

Here's a video of Falco's in action: click

Considering how similar they look I'm betting that's it, but I don't know enough about OSA2/PSA to confirm it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Can anyone give me detailed explanations as to how all three types of knockback work? weight, base, and growth.

And there are also special knockback angles that exceed 360 degrees in value, which I would like information on.

 

[Luxor]

I know 361 is Sakurai, something above that is meteors, and something above that is true spikes. I saw that in the P:M thread somewhere back a while ago and don't want to look for it again.

Checking Sheik's jab for windboxes like hotgarbage said, will update this post momentarily.
EDIT: Sheik's RapidJabEnding does have windboxes, or at least some special offensive collision since I'm too lazy to check the one parameter to see if it's actually a windbox.
So, it's a windbox that pushed Falco's Ftilt back. Hotgarbage is correct.

 

[Yikarur]

Subaction Main0x4D
@F4B0

-----------|START|--------------------------
Terminate Collisions
Asynchronous Timer - Frames=1,00x,
Special Offensive Collision - 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x1D0064, 0x0, 5,00x, 0,00x, 8,00x, 8,00x, 0,00x, 0,00x, 0,00x, 0x30000, 0x0, 0xC04FFFC3,
Asynchronous Timer - Frames=2,00x,
Terminate Collisions
----------------------------|END|-----------


that's it right?
I'm going to learn full PSA/OSA
I noticed that before but I didn't know what to do with the special offensive collision, how do I get to know if it's a windbox or something different?

 

[hotgarbage]

Thanks for checking that out Luxor~


Not sure where else to put this so I guess I'll post it here:

On a completely unrelated topic I noticed something interesting when looking at pivot grabs in frame-advance mode today (my apologies if this is old; I've been out of the loop for too long). Basically when pivoting out of a run into a pivot grab your "pivot time" is incorporated into the pivot grab itself, resulting in a "faster" pivot grab.

.....yeah, I'll just give an example using Peach's pivot grab:

- Pivoting for 0 frames = pivot grab hits on frame 13
- Pivoting for 1 frame = pivot grab hits on frame 12
- Pivoting for 2 frames = pivot grab hits on frame 11
- Pivoting for 3 frames = you can no longer pivot grab

In the past I'd had some trouble getting consistent pivot grab duration data... and now I know why! It's really just another one of Brawl's systems that attempt make the game more "user friendly".

Welp, I got a kick out of this; thought I'd share.

 

[Yikarur]

user friendly brawl is user friendly!
but this does only work in "run" not in "dash" and that's why I roll a lot instead of pivot grabbing =(

 

[Luxor]

@Yikarur: One of the parameters on the "Special Offensive Collision" specifies what type of hitbubble it is, and it's set to windbox in this case. I can't tell you which parameter it is off the top of my head, though, but that's how it works. Check this thread or somewhere.

@Hotgarbage: That's neat, I think you should add it to Thinkaman's input leeway thread thing. Basically, I guess it just gives you a few extra frames to input the grab after a pivot and still get away with it as if you had done it ASAP. Cool. Pivot grabs are easy in OSA too =D


Oh, A2Z:
230°-310° = Meteor
spikes i'll keep looking through the P:M thread
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11104409&postcount=13225
^there
spikes are the angles between 590°-670°

 

[Yikarur]

mh ok thanks, I will search later.

another thing that bugs me but is nowhere explained: what is a 361° Angle? a lot of attacks have it in PSA.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Angle 361 basically works like this.

Knockback Angle starts at 0 degrees and increases as knockback increases. Probably towards something like 45 degrees, but I can't remember.

 

[Luxor]

The Sakurai Angle. What A2Z said, at low knockbacks it doesn't move the hittee anywhere at all, but the angle gradually increases and actually knocks the opponent back at higher %s.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Is there any way to find SH and FF data in brawlbox?

And is "jumpF" jump+falling or just jump(in brawlbox)?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

There is no SH and FH in BrawlBox. *sigh* You have to find them in game as they are controlled by the jump height property the attributes (which doesn't say how many frames they are)

 

[JOE!]

Generally, how has weight data been gathered?

From what i've seen it's either been through some odd value found somehwere, or through various % tests with a select few kill moves...

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Generally, how has weight data been gathered?

From what i've seen it's either been through some odd value found somehwere, or through various % tests with a select few kill moves...

Weight data is gathered through data in the attributes of a character (in PSA). It serves the same purpose as % tests in that you find the comparisons between characters, otherwise it doesn't have much purpose as we haven't found the full formula for KB. If you're thinking in terms of DI, you also have to remember that FF also affects how well you can DI. (poor jigglerpuff)

 

[EverAlert]

Do we have a formula for hitstun yet? If I remember correctly we didn't, just wanted to double-check.

Also, a few questions on perfect shielding vs regular shielding. Am I correct in assuming perfect shield lag is the same as regular shield lag? Also, how much does perfect shieldstun differ from regular shieldstun? I've been under the impression it's greatly reduced but not completely eliminated, like shield push. yes/no?

Thanks for any help.

 

[Yikarur]

-Shield Stun and Hitlag are the same
-Shield pushback is greatly reduced
- you have IASA frames from the first frames of shield drop.

I think thats all.

 

[hotgarbage]

To further detail the IASA: you can perform an attack or special as soon as you are out of shield stun, but you cannot walk or run (making power shielding nearly pointless again long-range projectiles).

 

[Pikabunz]

Also, you can't buffer most attacks into those IASA frames. The only things you can buffer is jump and grab, I believe. And for that first IASA frame, you can't fsmash or dsmash, because for some reason the game will still think you're in shield and make you roll or spotdodge.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I'm asking you this since you're the first person that comes to mind when I think of Smash Lab. I'm requesting that the Smash Lab figure out why three techniques work.

1. Toon Link's quickdraw
2. Toon Link's BCAT.
3. The iBomb

What I want to know is how/why they work, what's the time window to do these techniques, and to understand some of the properties that make this work. Was it a feature or was it a bug? Stuff like that.

Can you guys do this? I'd appreciate it like a whole bunch.

I got a PM from Twinkie, can someone get me frame maps of these?

 

[Pikabunz]

What's an iBomb?

 

[Luxor]

IIRC it's dropping a bomb into the ground by airdodging and being invincible while it happens. That's hardly even a tech IMO, unless I remember wrong.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

It's not imo. The "i" signifies invinibility, I.e you can't get hurt by your bomb if you mess it up.

Also Toon Link drops the bomb BEHIND HIM ONE

 

[JOE!]

I heard somehwere that KB/weight is different in training mode, is this true?

 

[Yikarur]

Training Mode doesn't have a stale moves modifier. So it's always "1" in Training Mode. In Vs. a move never has a modifier of 1. Fresh Attacks have a 1.05 modifier and used attacks a <1 modifier. I don't know if this counts 1:1 for Knockback, but Knockback does get a small bonus too (in addition to a small damage bonus)

"Also, you can't buffer most attacks into those IASA frames. The only things you can buffer is jump and grab, I believe. "

Jump and Grab has nothing to do with the IASA frames. You can't buffer into the IASA frames at all.
You can do any attack in the IASA frame but not movement.
You can buffer a grab when being hit if you hold the shield button, if you release shield button then you do nothing.
you can jump OoShield Drop Animation even without power shielding.

 

[EverAlert]

It's not imo. The "i" signifies invinibility, I.e you can't get hurt by your bomb if you mess it up.

The "i" does signify invincibility, but Luxor is correct, it's when you drop a bomb while airdodging, so that you're invincible when it blows up on something/someone. It's not much of a tech but that's what it is. The only really interesting one on that list is BCAT imo, quickdraw is fairly simple.

Anyway, rPSI, I'll play around with frame advance to get those input maps. I guess since I talk to Foxy a lot I'm as good a person as any to do it, I get exposed to a lot of TL stuff.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I'm asking you this since you're the first person that comes to mind when I think of Smash Lab. I'm requesting that the Smash Lab figure out why three techniques work.

1. Toon Link's quickdraw
2. Toon Link's BCAT.
3. The iBomb

What I want to know is how/why they work, what's the time window to do these techniques, and to understand some of the properties that make this work. Was it a feature or was it a bug? Stuff like that.

Can you guys do this? I'd appreciate it like a whole bunch.

Certainly. First of all... what's an iBomb? (I did not murder explode on him!)

Ah, I forgot to attach the link!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e71yBIVaq1w&feature=related Air dodging and instantly dropping items.

Well there's iBomb. TBH that one is pretty easy as it's just dropping an item in the early frames of airdodge.

 

[EverAlert]

Input maps/explanations...


Quickdraw

00 : 00 : (In air) Press and release B
01 : 98 : First possible frame for TL to touch ground, arrow releases early
17 : 71 : Last possible frame for TL to touch ground, arrow releases early

Not much to explain here, obviously if you press B and touch the ground during the startup phase of the arrow, TL skips to the (grounded) charging phase of the arrow, finds that B is not being held, and thus releases the arrow immediately, at which point a hitbox is out from frame 1. The main thing to gain from this is that the arrow startup is 17 frames.


BCAT/Battle Christ's Arrow Trick

00 : 00 : (In air) Press and release B
01 : 98 : Tap and hold Stick back
02 : 96 : TL touches ground, arrow is released
03 : 95 : TL is turned around via b-reversal

B-Reversal on TLink's Neutral B happens on frame 3 after input. The way BCAT works is you need to release the arrow via quickdraw before the b-reverse takes effect. The above series of inputs is the only way to get this to happen; there is no leeway.


iBomb/InvinciBomb

00 : 00 : (In air) Press and hold Shield
01 : 98 : First possible frame to Press Attack/Grab
05 : 91 : Last possible frame to Press Attack/Grab

Not much to explain here, but as a side note, if you release shield after frame 0 and press attack at any time during frames 1-4, he'll throw the item instead.

 

[JOE!]

Training Mode doesn't have a stale moves modifier. So it's always "1" in Training Mode. In Vs. a move never has a modifier of 1. Fresh Attacks have a 1.05 modifier and used attacks a <1 modifier. I don't know if this counts 1:1 for Knockback, but Knockback does get a small bonus too (in addition to a small damage bonus)

so, taking stale moves out of the question, for a move per move analysis, would trainign mode be viable to test weights/ko power?

 

[Yikarur]

personally I use training mode + "stale moves in training"-code.
it would be viable to test that stuff but it wouldn't be as accurate as you probably want it to be.

 

[Luxor]

...if you're making it so there's no stale moves in training, why not just use regular Brawl? Lol.

Go find a code that makes no stale moves whatsoever, eliminating the 1.05 fresh bonus too (preferably, unless you'd like to have control to test that as well.) Most of the hacking projects have such a code. Just copy it from B- or wherever.

 

[KayLo!]

...if you're making it so there's no stale moves in training, why not just use regular Brawl? Lol.

Because you can set percentages in Training Mode.

Durrdurr.

 

[Luxor]

...oh yeah.

 

[JOE!]

hurr durrr


anyways, anyone know if anyobdy (character) has archived their character's kill moves / momentum breakers?

 

[Luxor]

Everybody's momentum breaker is just their fastest aerial (or Snake's airdodge, poor guy) (plus a double jump in swordgard's DI thread), in some cases followed up by a "bucket brake" in the cases of G&W and others for horizontal kills. Fastest aerial + Wavebounced Special needs to be researched more for horizontal survivability tbh (that one InnocentRoads vid, it's kind of cool seeing Zelda fly away and then bounce back towards the stage using the killer's own momentum >.>). Vertically, it's fastest aerial + earliest possible fastfall (+ bucket brake for G&W, DK, Yoshi?).

Kill moves are fairly self-explanatory, although we could do a more quantitative analysis of them once we get everybody's hitbox data in OSA in 9-12 months. At this rate.

 

[KayLo!]

(or Snake's airdodge, poor guy)

I know you didn't just "poor guy" Snake's survivability.

Heavy *******.

I think you're supposed to fastfall the aerial horizontally too btw..... at least that's what I've always been told.

 

[phi1ny3]

I know you didn't just "poor guy" Snake's survivability.

Heavy *******.

I think you're supposed to fastfall the aerial horizontally too btw..... at least that's what I've always been told.

haha that's the main reason I picked him up.

I knew he was broken when I was surviving stuff to 190% consistently on neutrals looooool.

How exactly does one use AD to cancel momentum? I understand that it's the fastest action for a lot of characters (since the others are unable to be performed until later) but... you can't FF AD out of hitstun very easily, at least from my recollection. I heard a lot about this concept, but I've never seen anyone impliment it very well.

btw, that "specials wavebounce momentum cancel" iirc is confirmed for Fox's reflector too. The main reason for lack of practical impliment is because of the HUUUUGE penalty if you don't make the right inputs obv., but I feel it could be done reasonably consistently.

 

[Yikarur]

Snakes ridicolous fast fall is one of the things that guarants his great survivability. Snake doesn't airdodge to momentum cancel at all against killmoves.
and I would be very interested in that Special Momentum Brake stuff.

 

[KayLo!]

Snakes do airdodge.

I dunno if they're supposed to or if there's a purpose to it at all, but I see a lot of pro Snakes do it. I'm assuming it's because all of his aerials are pretty slow lengthwise.

 

[phi1ny3]

I guess, but his fall speed pretty much helps tremendously. bair is like frame 7 with a total frame count of 43, dair's frame 3 (this kinda surprised me, then again, it's the cooldown/commitment that's so bleh about this move) with a long duration of 63.

 

[Yikarur]

that's theoretically correct (Airdodge 39 (53), bair 42 (68)) but that fast fall has a huge influence on the momentum, that's why "perfect DI" and fast fall bair should always be better (against kill moves)


E: @above

fall fall starts in the first or second frame (dair first, other aerial second) of an aerial, the start-up is irrelevant, just the duration is important. (for momentum cancel)