Prop 8 overturned

[Deleted member]

Removed by Moderator

 

[Luigitoilet]

I REALLY don't wanna continue turning this into a religious thing (that would suck, it would be a quick lock).

Being an atheist doesn't mean that you believe there is no god as a statement, it just means that you are rejecting the claim that there is a god. Much like being an abigfoot-ist. I don't have any evidence for the fact that big foot doesn't exist, but I would still call myself an abigfootist.

Oh, so exactly what I said, then?

 

[Strong Badam]

lol. being an atheist is a religious concept. you are directly regarding religion when you say you are an atheist. as there is no real proof of a creator deity in either direction, you're belief isn't any more correct or logical than theists. get over yourself.

The thing is, my belief (or lack thereof; at any rate I'm not an agnostic) isn't being used by me in an attempt to support myself in this debate. That's the difference.

 

[Pink Reaper]

The thing is, my belief (or lack thereof; at any rate I'm not an agnostic) isn't being used by me in an attempt to support myself in this debate. That's the difference.

God doesn't exist.

Next argument?

Yes it is.

 

[Strong Badam]

I can counteract his religious argument with mine and none will ever win. That was the entire point of that post, Pink Reaper. Got any more Bridget pics?
Btw, I'll $MM your Kirby.

 

[Pink Reaper]

**** no, Kirby/Dk sucks balls. Falcon/DK.

Also you're agreeing with me then? You did in fact use your belief as a way to support your argument so i dont see what the problem here is.

A better way to counter that point would have been to point out that separation of church and state means religious arguments are(supposed to be) void in this matter.

 

[Strong Badam]

aight, let's money match falcon/dk.
still waiting on moar Bridget

 

[metalmonstar]

The whole religion thing has been done to death, however a debate between the necessity and uselessness of marriage sounds like a very interesting topic.

I'd like more info on the legal necessity of marriage please.

 

[SkylerOcon]

Keep it on topic please, guys

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

Content removed at request of poster.​

 

[El Nino]

I don't understand why marriage has to affect taxes and income proportion. It is a social choice that people make and shouldn't have fiscal repercussions. I'm not opposed to marriage, I'm opposed to the fiscal benefits and deductions that are involved with marriage.

Marriage has historically served the purpose of providing economic security for a household by obligating two adults into a binding contract. The financial benefits offered under law are meant to support that system of cooperation. Times have now changed, but marriage won't be re-evaluated in the U.S. due the views of certain political-religious groups that continue to view marriage as a religious institution backed by the state, in spite of the separation of church and state written into the constitution.

As of now, the tax break is like a vestigial organ left over from previous generations.

As for same-sex marriage specifically, it is about equality in that it is discriminatory for heterosexual couples to qualify for those benefits while same-sex couples are denied it. If same-sex marriage were legalized and the tax break were eliminated, it would be expected to apply to all marriages across the board.

But any alteration to marriage is going to be met by strong resistance. Though it isn't, by a law, a religious institution backed by the state, but rather a non-religious institution backed by the state, many don't see it as such, and as long as they continue to hold that view, politicians concerned for their careers won't be willing to make any changes to it.

 

[Shadic]

Half on-topic and half off-topic is gonna have to do.

lol. being an atheist is a religious concept. you are directly regarding religion when you say you are an atheist. as there is no real proof of a creator deity in either direction, you're belief isn't any more correct or logical than theists. get over yourself.

Wrong. Atheism isn't a belief, it's acknowledging there's no evidence to a supreme being. Atheism is scientific at its core, requiring hard science to change how one thinks of the universe. How is going "there's no proof for a god, nor any real logical arguments for one" equally scientific as "Well, this one really old book says so."

I'd like more info on the legal necessity of marriage please.

What do you mean? Are you asking for the legal advantages of being married? Such as the tax breaks, ease of combination of assets, and hospital visitation rights?

 

[Deleted member]

Removed by Moderator

 

[Shadic]

Quick comment:

5. Because it' a part of our culture.

This is something people don't acknowledge regarding gay marriage. Society sees a couple as "more legitimate" if they are married. The arguments have been brought up for this in the Prop8 case, and I've attended several seminars that bring up this point as well. Not all assets in society are physical objects, and the respect of a relationship from others in a marriage is one of them.

 

[SuperBowser]

There's also having the rights that naturally come to families. What medical treatment your spouse may receive. What should happen to your spouse's body. What should happen to your spouse's (and yours, though it is not recognized by the law) child.

But yeah, I think point number 5 is the most important. Finances and laws and children are not only one aspect. It is really about being recognized and respected and treated the same way as every other human in society.

 

[Luigitoilet]

No, and the fact that you and millions of others think that is a huge part of the problem. There's a subtle difference between what you said and what I said, but that subtle difference is key.

You said: Atheists say there is no god.
I said: Atheists say there is no evidence that god exists.

Whether or not atheists are right or not is a different issue, but first you have to understand what it is that they're saying.

EDIT:

Also, the reasons why marriage in general is needed:

1. Children
2. Taxes
3. Wills
4. Preventing promiscuity (to an extent)
5. Because it' a part of our culture.

okay mr. pedantic

 

[Shadic]

It's not being pedantic. You're claiming that Atheism at its root isn't logical, because it requires a belief. Lack of a belief is not a belief. It's saying, "There's no evidence, so why would I?"

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

It is a belief. You believe that because there is not evidence, God does not exist.

 

[UberMario]

Wrong. Atheism isn't a belief, it's acknowledging there's no evidence to a supreme being. Atheism is scientific at its core, requiring hard science to change how one thinks of the universe. How is going "there's no proof for a god, nor any real logical arguments for one" equally scientific as "Well, this one really old book says so."

Atheism is a belief in no gods of any kind, and thus is a belief, and because it's a standpoint on spirituality it is thus a religion in a loose sense. Also, science is really not being used properly nowadays, it used to mean in short: "To Hypothesize, To Experiment, and To Prove". You can't experiment or prove past or future events that are not recorded with detail strong enough to use with no doubt of it's accuracy, and hypothesizations by themselves are not forms of science.

You're claiming that Atheism at its root isn't logical, because it requires a belief. Lack of a belief is not a belief. It's saying, "There's no evidence, so why would I?"

This applies to pretty much every religion including Atheism, and yes lack of belief is belief because it requires belief in non-belief which means you believe that something doesn't exist.

a debate between the necessity and uselessness of marriage sounds like a very interesting topic.

I'm interested where this would go too, I'll respond to this more later though.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I remember the days when marriage was needed to have children. And wills. Unmarried couples can't have either of those imo.
I remember when married couples wouldn't cheat on each other and prevented promiscuity (oh what let's see how many married couples break up because of cheating on each other. And then there's the ones that still stay married I DONT EVEN KNOW BRO)
I remember when marria- wait taxes? Yea obviously the taxes that are being paid when people get married. Those are benificial.

Tanning is also part of western culture. So is McDonalds and eating a lot. We should finance that with tax money.

 

[SuperBowser]

It's kind of a minor point, but Shadic is right.

Atheism at its very core does not claim there is no god(s). Atheists sometimes do, but you do not need such strong views to call yourself an atheist. It claims there is no evidence to believe in a deity, therefore there is no reason to hold such a belief. If you were to show irrefutable proof to an atheist that a deity does indeed exist, they would change their mind. Until that happens, though, they will not believe in a deity the same way one does not believe in invisible pink unicorns.

Refusing to acknowledge validity of a religion is not the same as saying a religion is, without a doubt, wrong. Lack of belief is not a belief.

 

[Deleted member]

Removed by Moderator

 

[Firus]

What atheism is or is not is not relevant to this discussion. At all. Saying "I do/don't believe in a god, therefore your argument is invalid" is pretty much just as pointless as saying "I disagree, therefore your argument is invalid", that's really all that needs to be said about religion. This is about Prop 8 being overturned, Skyler already said to stay on topic, could we just stay on topic? I realize you feel a need to defend your belief (or lack thereof), but this is not a discussion about religion. Apply to be a Temp Debater and take the debate there.

Now, in regards to marriage, there are certainly benefits to marriage that single people don't have, but Santo Amancio is absolutely right. There are many parts of our culture that, quite frankly, I think we'd be better without. Marriage is a part of our culture, but that doesn't mean it's necessary. The number of people who actually take marriage seriously is declining.

 

[TigerWoods]

I feel like legalizing gay marriage is also sort of a symbolic movement too. Just knowing that the state recognizes gay marriage as a valid legal relationship would be rather uplifiting for the gay minority.

I know that sounds like an insignificant reason... but I feel like it's important as well.

Having said everything in this thread... I feel like the true problem isn't really the law. The true problem is in our cultures, social structures, and what we consider to be "norms."

 

[SuperBowser]

I think most* people still take marriage seriously. They just don't view it as a sentence to a life of misery anymore.

It's nice to have the ceremony and have your families watch and vocalise your intentions to stay with your partner for the rest of your life. And the legal work needs to be covered at some point in some formal setting. I don't think marriage is necessary and I'd get over it if it got abolished. But it has its uses, even if the most significant is ''merely'' its cultural value.

The cultural value is perhaps most central to why I think marriage should be legalized for homosexual couples.

*I think we need some qualifiers to continue this discussion; high divorce rates alone do not prove the first assertion.

 

[Shadic]

I think most* people still take marriage seriously. They just don't view it as a sentence to a life of misery anymore.

Bingo. Sure, some people jump into it too quickly, but the reason divorce rates are higher isn't because people don't care as much, it's because it's more socially acceptable (and legal) to divorce. Some people aren't made for each other. Some people change. Sure, if you were really dedicated to the "institution" of marriage, you could stay married and miserable all your life, but why would you?

And the people still trying to argue that Atheism is a belief have no idea what a belief is, apparently. There's a difference between disbelief and not believing something. One involves faith that something isn't true, and the other is just not accepting it due to a lack of evidence.

 

[[TSON]]

What's the difference between 'I believe that there is no god' and 'I don't believe god exists' again?

This thread is beginning to get more and more ******** with every post. Disbelief is a belief.

The cultural value of marriage prevents it from going anywhere, and until large quantaties of people marry and swiftly divorce for easy money, the public won't allow the government to do anything with it.

 

[Ballistics]

1,500 species exhibit same sex sexual behavior

seems that humans have forgotten we are just the 1,501th species to do this

Marriage is just a man made concept that we can change

See this is why the government can get away with the war on terror because we are busy bickering about personal morality

 

[Deleted member]

Removed by Moderator

 

[Metal~Mario]

For the first part, take the example of my wife having an affair (I don't have a wife, but whatever).

If I had no evidence that my wife had an affair I would say "I don't believe that my wife has had an affair." This is analogous to the claims of an atheist.

If I had evidence that my wife did not have an affair I would say "I believe that my wife did not have an affair." This is analogous to the claims of an anti-theist.

For the second part, just because something has been a certain way for a long time and is a part of our culture, doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do. In the past the cultural value of voting prevented women from voting, that didn't make it right.

Hmmm... I get what you're saying.

Slaves also tie into what you're saying at the bottom.

Also want to say that all of this religious bickering is sickening.

 

[Wild ARMs]

I just read the whole thread. -____-
I put that face there because I wasn't planning on wasting almost an hour reading arguments. But it kept pulling me in, like, "Oh, well played. How will he respond? ...Next page, and-*gasp* an opposing view! Got to keep reading..."

I think it's cool that it was turned down. Yay.
*leaves thread forever*

 

[Pluvia]

I read this entire thread too, it was ok apart from the last few pages where it's devolved in religious drivel that I skipped past. Keep the religious nonsense out of this thread people, couldn't give two ****s if you're an atheist or a creationist it has nothing to do with this topic.

Anyway you're lagging behind the rest of the developed world America. Gay people have been able to get all the same benefits as straight people here in the UK for a few years now. There's no logical reason against gay marriage which is why there wasn't a big fuss about it over here.

 

[Shadic]

Anyway you're lagging behind the rest of the developed world America. Gay people have been able to get all the same benefits as straight people here in the UK for a few years now. There's no logical reason against gay marriage which is why there wasn't a big fuss about it over here.

We're lagging behind in many areas, both in terms of infrastructure and advancing past bigotry as a country.

 

[Luigitoilet]

Yeah, as if discrimination doesn't exist anywhere but the U.S. Sure

 

[TigerWoods]

At least you know... the America's gays are fighting for marriage... not so much their lives...

Well it depends on what city you live in... but at least you wont be hunted down by the government.

 

[Omnicron's Baklava Enterprises]

I'd rather have it banned in the whole country, it's not even funny or natural.

It saddens me that it's becoming legal in more and more countries (not saying it wasn't already legal at the point of this overturning) and I don't really understand why they feel they have to do that. I understand religious differences but this is totally unexceptable imo. especially since comics and tv shows are starting to shove it down our throats too.

I'm glad none of my friends are *** because they wouldn't be friends for much longer if they were . . . . .

As for P8 conflicting with an already existing statement, I'm going to remain more-or-less silent on how I feel about the 14th Amendment basically being twisted to endorse homosexuality, but from the rest of the post it should be pretty easy to determine my standing.

Wow, my respect for you has just dropped to an all time low.

Also,

unexceptable

Good job!

People who think homosexuality is a disease, or that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to marry, are scumbuckets of ******** proportions because all they do is complain about how it's sinful or bullcrap like that.

Good Lord I'm Christian and I'd want any homosexuals to marry so they can be happy and stop complaining about it.

 

[UberMario]

Just out of curiosity, what did this part:

Also,

unexceptable

Good job!

Have to do with the rest of that post? And you don't have to go around bashing me or people that think similarly to me, you could have just given a reason to why you think that way instead of writing slander for the majority of your post.

 

[Fletch]

Just out of curiosity, what did this part:



Have to do with the rest of that post? And you don't have to go around bashing me or people that think similarly to me, you could have just given a reason to why you think that way instead of writing slander for the majority of your post.

I think he was pointing out that you spelled unacceptable incorrectly.

 

[UberMario]

I think he was pointing out that you spelled unacceptable incorrectly.

*Reads again*

Oh, I see . . . . . yeah unexceptable (to not exclude from the norm) is kind of the opposite of unacceptable, meh, I hate making mistakes like that on a subject like this . . . .

 

[Shadic]

Have to do with the rest of that post? And you don't have to go around bashing me or people that think similarly to me, you could have just given a reason to why you think that way instead of writing slander for the majority of your post.

Because your bigotry is denying other's rights.