Project M Social Thread

[GP&B]

Just letting you know that Stale Moves was taken out for the time being until someone discovers how to make it reduce just damage dealt rather than that and knockback at the same time.

Or at least that's what I remember the team's stance on it was. Could be wrong.

 

[JCaesar]

Beren Zaiga, just fyi, we are not against stale moves as a whole, only the way the work in Brawl (which unfortunately is the only way to have them currently). We've tried making Melee style stale moves but it doesn't work because of the way Brawl knockback is directly affected by damage.

 

[Revven]

And we will not add it back in even if it's just weakened as that makes many moves combo into themselves even moreso than they do currently at low %s (mainly a ton of Utilts, we've tried it before). This is why we removed it until we can get a proper system working for it that matches Melee. Sorry to hear that you're disappointed with that decision but that is how we want to handle it until it can be changed so damage isn't directly tied to knockback.

 

[Beren Zaiga]

Beren Zaiga, just fyi, we are not against stale moves as a whole, only the way the work in Brawl (which unfortunately is the only way to have them currently). We've tried making Melee style stale moves but it doesn't work because of the way Brawl knockback is directly affected by damage.

Then why not research a way to have the KB be affected minimally? There must be a parameter that affects how damage affects the KB, am I right?

Anyway, here is the Pseudocode for what I was suggesting, at least how I see it in my head.

If move "X" has been used, and has connected with an opposing player, increase counter variable by 1.

If move "X" is the same move, and the counter variable is greater than 1, apply Damage and Hitstun decrement, and modify Knockback.

If move "X" is the same move, the counter variable is greater than 0, and did not connect with an opposing player, reset counter variable, Damage, Hitstun, and Knockback to original parameters.

If move "X" is not the same move as the previous move "X", reset the counter variable and parameters for previous move "X" to their original values.

If move "X" makes use of an item, nothing changes.

If player was Knocked Out, reset parameters of all moves to their original values.

Get me out of here so I can move to the next code.

 

[Stevo]

I would like to thank the PM team for deciding to remove the air dodge glitch. I know you guys have a better idea what is good for the game than the general public. I think overall it was a good decision to create a demo, because people will hopefully not be interested in leaks and it generates hype. However, it is too bad some people will now feel more entitled to make decisions for the direction the game should go.

Voice your opinion if you want to and then let the team decide.

nobody wants brawl+ 2.0.


Side note, what are the chances of Wave Dash out of Shield being fixed. Is it really annoying to fix?

 

[Revven]

Side note, what are the chances of Wave Dash out of Shield being fixed. Is it really annoying to fix?

I believe this answers how annoying and difficult it's going to be to fix.

A: It works, it's just that it has to be done a really specific way because vBrawl reads shield input as the same across all three buttons that use it (Z, L, and R) they are not counted as different buttons in the game. Making wavedash out of shield not only different and difficult to do but also making it difficult to fix.

 

[shanus]

I would like to thank the PM team for deciding to remove the air dodge glitch. I know you guys have a better idea what is good for the game than the general public. I think overall it was a good decision to create a demo, because people will hopefully not be interested in leaks and it generates hype. However, it is too bad some people will now feel more entitled to make decisions for the direction the game should go.

Voice your opinion if you want to and then let the team decide.

nobody wants brawl+ 2.0.


Side note, what are the chances of Wave Dash out of Shield being fixed. Is it really annoying to fix?

WD OOS has been a plague that has no foreseeable fix in the near future. The main problem is that L+R are bound to a single button press, whereas they were separate in melee. Attempts to clear their inputs have been tried as well, but it just doesn't seem to work.

Then why not research a way to have the KB be affected minimally? There must be a parameter that affects how damage affects the KB, am I right?

Anyway, here is the Pseudocode for what I was suggesting, at least how I see it in my head.

If move "X" has been used, and has connected with an opposing player, increase counter variable by 1.

If move "X" is the same move, and the counter variable is greater than 1, apply Damage and Hitstun decrement, and modify Knockback.

If move "X" is the same move, the counter variable is greater than 0, and did not connect with an opposing player, reset counter variable, Damage, Hitstun, and Knockback to original parameters.

If move "X" is not the same move as the previous move "X", reset the counter variable and parameters for previous move "X" to their original values.

If move "X" makes use of an item, nothing changes.

If player was Knocked Out, reset parameters of all moves to their original values.

Get me out of here so I can move to the next code.

Knockback is explicitly tied to damage dealt in its formula. You'd have to have a method to detect1. the current counter of each move on a per character basis, and then directly counteract that reduced damage multiplier to counteract the knockback its suppressing.

In summary, its complicated as hell and likely not happening any time soon.

 

[MK26]

I understand that the data is ripped but its a different game. I'm not being dumb by double checking, seeing as Brawl played 100% differently to Melee it would make sense that maybe, just maybe their characters maybe different sizes. Haven't you noticed how in the past stages you can kick through platforms with characters you normally couldn't? Do those stages have the "original data" also? I don't know the answer to that question, but it doesn't seem all that absurd to think that its possible that the dev team used a different scale in each game.

The P:M team found that Brawl and Melee are wat closer than anyone thought. Most character attributes are stored by the two games in the same way and can be ported from one to the other with no changes. Would you believe that the two games use the same function for calculating hitstun, with the only difference being that you can cancel hitstun with an airdodge or attack in Brawl?

As many times as necessary.

Strong Bad is mistaken. Knee hitlag is the same in both games. 9 for CF and 13 for the person being hit.

Magus'd

 

[MonkUnit]

Magus'd

Magus is so darn good, he has just been made into a verb.

 

[Stevo]

I believe this answers how annoying and difficult it's going to be to fix.

alright

I happen to use WD OoS a lot in melee, so it probably annoys me more than most.
Hopefully you guys will hit some sort of breakthrough.

It seems like brawl code has "dumbed down" the game to the point where it makes it more difficult for you guys to "fix" things.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Wasn't the IC for knockback decay found already? I found it in the OSA Wiki under IC-constants.
Does modifying it not work like it should?

 

[Beren Zaiga]

WD OOS has been a plague that has no foreseeable fix in the near future. The main problem is that L+R are bound to a single button press, whereas they were separate in melee. Attempts to clear their inputs have been tried as well, but it just doesn't seem to work.



Knockback is explicitly tied to damage dealt in its formula. You'd have to have a method to detect1. the current counter of each move on a per character basis, and then directly counteract that reduced damage multiplier to counteract the knockback its suppressing.

In summary, its complicated as hell and likely not happening any time soon.

Here is what I am thinking.

-There can only be four counters at one time during a match, because of the four player limit. As such, the maximum number of counters is 4 (Free-Four-All) with a minimum of 2 (One on One).

-There would only be one counter variable that is universal for all moves that deal damage in the FitMotion.pac (minus moves like the Home Run Bat swing) for each player.

-The Move "X" Variable would be used to store the name of a move (as it is seen in a character's FitMotion.pac) making Stale Moves only affect that move for that player, IF it is used more than once.

-Once a different move is used, or the current move stored in the Move "X" variable misses. The counter variable is reset (resetting it to one in the case of a different move, and resetting it to 0 in the case of the currently stored move not hitting the opposing player.

What I am saying in the first three points is your over-complicating things by making each and every move a character has have a counter variable. You only need one because there would be only one move being affected at a time.

Otherwise the moves would all slowly degrade to the point of uselessness because the counters wouldn't be reset.

 

[Revven]

Wasn't the IC for knockback decay found already? I found it in the OSA Wiki under IC-constants.
Does modifying it not work like it should?

It's not the kind of knockback decay you're thinking it is.

 

[shanus]

Wasn't the IC for knockback decay found already? I found it in the OSA Wiki under IC-constants.
Does modifying it not work like it should?

That needs to be relabeled, I forget what its knockback decay of, but its not what you think it is.

 

[Magus420]

Its label is correct. It IS knockback decay. As in if you make it 0, you will continue to fly outwards without ever naturally coming to a stop over time.

 

[Deleted member]

Hmm. Lucas glitch.

I get why you guys want to remove it, but saying you'd remove it as a balance issue isn't a sound reason. Nobody knows just how good Lucas is at the moment. There's nothing besides speculation to say he's good or bad.

Also, if that were the case, you'd remove the new Brawl ATs the top/high tier characters from Melee picked up. They actually do threaten the balance of the game with their top/high tier prowess combined with new abilities.

At least the players get to experiment with what's possible using the glitch now, so later if Lucas proves to be bad (which I doubt), the devs get to revisit his moveset and could possibly refine this old glitch into something intentional.

 

[shanus]

Its label is correct. It IS knockback decay. As in if you make it 0, you will continue to fly outwards without ever naturally coming to a stop over time.

oh, i swear somebody told me it was something else, its just a different form of decay

 

[GP&B]

Maybe "knockback deceleration" would be a more appropriate term for it?

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Hi, I made a video comparing the stage sizes between P:M and Melee, please check it out and leave comment if you feel like doing so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5fXqFmE5_Q

And thanks again for the demo =)

 

[ValTroX]

lol brawl models are a LOT bigger, way bigger than i thought

 

[popo12]

btw wired.com article, kind of spins us as brawl haters, but its good press:
http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2011/02/project-m/

I thought the tone was more positive than that. At the very least, it didn't seem biased against you. I think it's cool that it's getting this much attention, I just hope nothing bad comes of it.

By the way, I was wanting to use this version of Metal Cavern in my Brawl-, but it made the game freeze. Do I need to freeze the stage first?

 

[Melomaniacal]

Is it intentional that Mario (and I believe Marth, maybe more characters) can grab the ledge backwards at any point if he used his up B?

Looks like it's with all characters.

 

[GP&B]

IIRC, it's intentional. Don't remember if that was a placeholder solution until later or if that's going to stay in the final release.

 

[Tyrael64]

Hi, I made a video comparing the stage sizes between P:M and Melee, please check it out and leave comment if you feel like doing so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5fXqFmE5_Q

And thanks again for the demo =)

They look much different, but everything in Brawl seems to be thinner.

Try toggling Widescreen and comparing again.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Hmm. Lucas glitch.

I get why you guys want to remove it, but saying you'd remove it as a balance issue isn't a sound reason. Nobody knows just how good Lucas is at the moment. There's nothing besides speculation to say he's good or bad.

Also, if that were the case, you'd remove the new Brawl ATs the top/high tier characters from Melee picked up. They actually do threaten the balance of the game with their top/high tier prowess combined with new abilities.

At least the players get to experiment with what's possible using the glitch now, so later if Lucas proves to be bad (which I doubt), the devs get to revisit his moveset and could possibly refine this old glitch into something intentional.

Nobody ever said that the Lucas glitch was being removed for balancing issues. I believe this was clarified at least 5 times before this, and it's saddening to have to mention it a 6th.

The reason it's being taken out is because it was never intended to be there in the first place. It has nothing to do with how good it may be or how good Lucas may be or will become with it.

The Brawl ATs on the other hand are intended by the developers to be in the game.

 

[CORY]

i do believe it's because they can't find the reverse ledge grab boxes to edit/eliminate yet, but they've managed to set them to only be active during special fall.

 

[Magus420]

Spoiler

Melee Stage Data.

[size=small]Final Destination[/size]

Death Boundaries
(-) Dead0N: (-246.00, 188.00)
(-) Dead1N: (246.00, -140.00)

Camera Boundaries
(-) CamLimit0N: (-170.00, 114.00)
(-) CamLimit1N: (170.00, -80.00)

Starting Positions
(P0) Player0: (-60.00, 10.00)
(P1) Player1: (60.00, 10.00)
(P2) Player2: (-20.00, 10.00)
(P3) Player3: (20.00, 10.00)

Respawn Points
(R0) Rebirth0: (16.00, 45.00)
(R1) Rebirth1: (-50.00, 45.00)
(R2) Rebirth2: (50.00, 45.00)
(R3) Rebirth3: (-15.00, 45.00)

-(R3) Rebirth3 should probably instead be: (-16.00, 45.00).

Main Stage
(A): (-47.4702, -55.3870)
(B): (-53.7742, -54.2572)
(C ): (-61.4170, -47.3683)
(D): (-65.8426, -31.3573)
(E): (-65.7957, -20.4538)
(F): (-85.5606, -10.5094)
(G): (-85.5606, 0.0000)
(H): (85.5606, 0.0000)
(I): (85.5606, -10.5094)
(J): (65.7957, -20.4538)
(K): (65.8426, -31.3573)
(L): (61.4170, -47.3683)
(M): (53.7742, -54.2572)
(N): (47.4702, -55.3870)

Melee Stage Data.

[size=small]Dreamland 64[/size]

Death Boundaries
(-) Dead0N: (-255.00, 250.00)
(-) Dead1N: (255.00, -123.00)

Camera Boundaries
(-) CamLimit0N: (-165.00, 190.00)
(-) CamLimit1N: (165.00, -81.00)

Starting Positions
(P0) Player0: (0.00, 7.10)
(P1) Player1: (-46.59, 37.23) (-47.11, 37.23)
(P2) Player2: (0.00, 58.52)
(P3) Player3: (47.38, 37.33) (47.11, 37.23)

Respawn Points
(R0) Rebirth(All): (0.00, 84.225)

Main Stage
(A): (-65.7610, -35.7543)
(B): (-76.3364, -11.0418)
(C ): (-77.2700, 0.0100)
(D): (77.2700, 0.0100)
(E): (76.3364, -11.0418)
(F): (65.7610, -35.7543)

Platforms
(1) Top: (-19.0188, 51.4264)
(2) Top: (19.0188, 51.4264)
(3) Left: (-61.3896, 30.1422) (-62.5200, 30.1422)
(4) Left: (-31.7215, 30.1422) (-31.7051, 30.1422)
(5) Right: (31.7051, 30.2425) (31.7051, 30.1422)
(6) Right: (63.0764, 30.2425) (62.5200, 30.1422)

-Suggestions in Green.

Melee Stage Data.

[size=small]Fountain of Dreams[/size]

Death Boundaries
(-) Dead0N: (-198.75, 202.50)
(-) Dead1N: (198.75, -146.25)

Camera Boundaries
(-) CamLimit0N: (-123.75, 112.50)
(-) CamLimit1N: (123.75, -84.75)

Starting Positions
(P0) Player0: (-41.25, 21.00)
(P1) Player1: (41.25, 27.00)
(P2) Player2: (0.00, 5.25)
(P3) Player3: (0.00, 48.00)

Respawn Points
(R0) Rebirth(All): (0.00, 63.75)

Main Stage
(A): (-8.6809, -71.8312)
(B): (-18.9105, -48.6670)
(C ): (-41.1778, -41.9127)
(D): (-56.8736, -19.5537)
(E): (-63.2570, -4.3985)
(F): (-63.3500, 0.6214)
(G): (-53.5835, 0.6214)
(H): (-51.2608, 0.0000)
(I): (51.2608, 0.0000)
(J): (53.5835, 0.6214)
(K): (63.3500, 0.6214)
(L): (63.2570, -4.3985)
(M): (56.8736, -19.5537)
(N): (41.1778, -41.9127)
(O): (18.9105, -48.6670)
(P): (8.6809, -71.8312)

Platforms
(1) Top: (-14.25, 42.75)
(2) Top: (14.25, 42.75)
(-) Left (Start): (-49.50, 16.125)
(-) Left (Start): (-21.00, 16.125)
(3) Left (Highest): (-49.50, 27.375)
(4) Left (Highest): (-21.00, 27.375)
(5) Left (Lowest): (-49.50, 12.375)
(6) Left (Lowest): (-21.00, 12.375)
(-) Right (Start): (21.00, 22.125)
(-) Right (Start): (49.50, 22.125)
(7) Right (Highest): (21.00, 27.375)
(8) Right (Highest): (49.50, 27.375)
(9) Right (Lowest): (21.00, 12.375)
(10) Right (Lowest): (49.50, 12.375)

Side platforms stop within multiples of 0.250 between 12.375-27.375?

Melee Stage Data.

[size=small]Yoshi's Story[/size]

Death Boundaries
(-) Dead0N: (-175.70, 168.00)
(-) Dead1N: (173.60, -91.00)

Camera Boundaries
(-) CamLimit0N: (-126.00, 118.30)
(-) CamLimit1N: (125.30, -49.70)

Starting Positions
(P0) Player0: (-42.00, 26.60)
(P1) Player1: (42.00, 28.00)
(P2) Player2: (0.00, 46.90)
(P3) Player3: (0.00, 4.90)

Respawn Points
(R0) Rebirth(All): (0.00, 52.50)

Main Stage
(A): (-54.6000, -47.2450)
(B): (-52.6750, -45.3200)
(C ): (-52.6750, -30.8000)
(D): (-53.7250, -29.7500)
(E): (-53.7250, -28.0000)
(F): (-52.6750, -26.9500)
(G): (-52.6750, -12.2500)
(H): (-56.0000, -6.6500)
(I): (-56.0000, -3.5000)
(J): (-39.2000, 0.0000)
(K): (39.2000, 0.0000)
(L): (56.0000, -3.5000)
(M): (56.0000, -6.6500)
(N): (52.6750, -12.2500)
(O): (, ) ~ (52.6750, -26.9500)
(P): (, ) ~ (53.7250, -28.0000)
(Q): (, ) ~ (53.7250, -29.7500)
(R ): (, ) ~ (52.6750, -30.8000)
(S): (, ) ~ (52.6750, -45.3200)
(T): (, ) ~ (54.6000, -47.2450)

***A through F vs T through O are not actually symmetrical, but I don't care to find another entire set of offsets for the right wall for something very minor.

Platforms
(1) Top: (-15.75, 42.00)
(2) Top: (15.75, 42.00)
(3) Left: (-59.50, 23.45)
(4) Left: (-28.00, 23.45)
(5) Right: (28.00, 23.45)
(6) Right: (59.50, 23.45)

Randall
(-) Platform Width: (11.90)
(L1) Track X-Min: (97.65)
(L2) Track X-Max: (97.30)
(L3) Track Y-Min: (-33.25)
(L4) Track Y-Max: (-13.65)

The corners of the path he moves are slightly rounded off over about 6 frames or so where he moves diagonally before completing the turn. Also it seems there's an item spawn point attached to him, lol.

How should the blastzones, camera boundaries, and randall path be done? They are slightly off center and shifted towards the left. Also P0 and P1 are at different heights despite the platforms being the same height, though I don't really know if the heights of starting positions in general would work in Brawl anyway because of the intro system.

Melee Stage Data.

[size=small]Battlefield[/size]

Death Boundaries
(-) Dead0N: (-224.00, 200.00)
(-) Dead1N: (224.00, -108.80)

Camera Boundaries
(-) CamLimit0N: (-160.00, 136.00)
(-) CamLimit1N: (160.00, -47.20)

Starting Positions
(P0) Player0: (0.00, 8.00)
(P1) Player1: (0.00, 62.40)
(P2) Player2: (-38.80, 35.20)
(P3) Player3: (38.80, 35.20)

Respawn Points
(R0) Rebirth0: (12.80, 80.00)
(R1) Rebirth1: (-40.00, 80.00)
(R2) Rebirth2: (40.00, 80.00)
(R3) Rebirth3: (-12.00, 80.00)

Main Stage
(A): (-68.4000, 0.0000)
(B): (68.4000, 0.0000)

Platforms
(1) Top: (-18.80, 54.40)
(2) Top: (18.80, 54.40)
(3) Left: (-57.60, 27.20)
(4) Left: (-20.00, 27.20)
(5) Right: (20.00, 27.20)
(6) Right: (57.60, 27.20)

Just... Saying...

The stage collisions are accurate to like 1/1000 of a stage builder block as both games use the same unit for distance, lol. Also the character sizes were reduced from brawl and are much closer to melee than brawl, but some characters may be slightly off as they have not been fine tuned.

 

[Ecks]

I like how locas's down taunt changes with offense up. Little changes like those make the game look more professional.

Is there a melee battlefield somewhere? I liked the fd style background melee's had.

 

[GP&B]

Magus delivers. As if saying it over and over wasn't enough, there's ridiculously clear proof.

Sadly no Melee Battlefield though I don't doubt that it could be made rather easily, save for the background although I guess you could rip and edit FD's background for that to get a similar effect. There is SSB64 Battlefield if that's anything.

Also, are you guys willing to release the font you use for pretty much everything in the menus and SSS? I want to be able to make custom stage titles and the way the letters overlap makes it very difficult to cleanly edit.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Also, is it wrong for me to say Game and Watch is too good?

 

[GP&B]

Given that he was considered a solid character in Melee only foiled by his lackluster recovery and inability to cancel a few of his aerials (and his DSmash's inconsistency), the return of the Parachute Nair, his powerful Smashes, and being able to act out of his recovery significantly boost him.

He sounds like an awesome character.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Also Game & Watch's shield is usable.

BTW, HD is overrated.

 

[MonkUnit]

I like how locas's down taunt changes with offense up. Little changes like those make the game look more professional.

Is there a melee battlefield somewhere? I liked the fd style background melee's had.

Well, the battlefield in the demo is 100% melee battlefield down to the death boundaries and collisions. only thing about that is not melee is the underside, which remains to be brawl underside of battlefield.

 

[GP&B]

I think he meant visually.

 

[BRLNK88]

I very disappointed when my friends weren't impressed by the taunt canceling...
It's brings a new level of annoyingness to Marth's meta game, and a new level of awesomeness to Falcon, haha.

 

[GP&B]

Bah, that's absurd. How can one not be impressed by Sonic's outstanding trolling abilities?

 

[Ecks]

Well, the battlefield in the demo is 100% melee battlefield down to the death boundaries and collisions. only thing about that is not melee is the underside, which remains to be brawl underside of battlefield.

I meant visually

Also Ganondorf is beast.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Up-B -> 9 Judgment.

Goddamn CPUs and their troll recovering.

Also Hands off hands my off hands bread my off bread my bread

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

That's why I use Marth's Down+B.

It KO'd when G&W did that to my Marth.

Seems stronger here...

Maybe you couldn't get past the hard coded constant of counter???

 

[Supreme Dirt]

But I play Ganon and Lucas, neither of them have Marth's down-b