Project M Social Thread

[cooler1339]

Wow, some people are trying to argue too hard over something that shouldn't have been in to begin with. Like they said they had it on everyone and only couldn't remove it on a select few. It's not a new tactic we need in the game, get over it please.

I was wondering though, I think someone brought it up a few pages back. I find myself often attacking the wrong direction even though I didn't press toward that direction. It never happened in Melee and a lot of my friends had the same problem. It might be a Brawl thing though.

One thing I noticed happen often to me playing Zelda is that on Yoshis Island if I am touching the wall below the stage my UpB gets stuck to it(holding directly up). I don't think it happens on other flat wall maps, not positive though.

Also, is the stage borders in brawl a lot shorter than melee stages? Some stages people just die at really low % by Zelda back throw and Ganon anything. Been tipped to death by Marth at like 35% on a few stages too.

The more I play this game, as long as I am not my mains from melee the more I like it. It's like learning a new character and everything feels alright. Keep up the good work!

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Wow, some people are trying to argue too hard over something that shouldn't have been in to begin with. Like they said they had it on everyone and only couldn't remove it on a select few. It's not a new tactic we need in the game, get over it please.

Lol, cause something being unintentional definitely means it should be removed.

 

[GP&B]

Lucas has an option that no one else does.

Wow, so totally bannable.

Wait a second, I just realized that Jigglypuff can't wave-shine... REMOVE FOX'S SHINE!

You completely missed the point in SB's post. Air dodging needs the drawback of no options because it provides invincibility frames and serves as an evasive maneuver. Wavedashing and AGT interrupt the air dodge action, effectively nulling invincibility frames while Lucas' AD special cancel still gives him those frames while allowing him to immediately act out of it.

At least, I'm pretty sure that's what he's getting at.

 

[GuruKid]

I would just like to explain more in detail and be more thorough with the PMBR's reasoning in removing the Lucas Airdodge-to-Special glitch.

We have two goals with the release of this demo.

1) Demonstrate the progress of the project, including its developed engine and a select number of the most highly-developed characters, to the public.

2) Allow a preliminary metagame and tier list to develop with the demo to get a more precise idea both on how to implement future balance on the released characters and more effectively gauge the viability of our unreleased. still-in-development characters.

I had messed with the Lucas glitch for a little while after reading about it here. It's really slick and offers a very unique approaching/spacing tool. I personally feel a little iffy on the recovery potential (this combined with zapjump/magnet pulling could overbuff his recovery), but overall the mechanic shows promise. I like its onstage applications. But that's beside the point.


The thing is that we, the PMBR, released these characters with the intended changes specifically to see how their metagame develops with said changes. We designed each character with specific playstyles in mind; each and every change was done to complement the model we had for them. With Lucas, we'd like to see how he sizes up to the roster under the refinements of a DJC, revamped Neutral special, physics tweaks, hitbox alterations, new zair, etc. We would like to see how these intentional character-specific changes (along with the universal gameplay overhaul PM introduces) influence his playstyle, matchups, and ultimately his competitive viability.

As far as character design and balance goes, it's much easier to buff (add onto) a character while preserving the model playstyle than it is nerfing (taking away) him/her while trying to keep the character's "feel". Warranted buffs are also generally regarded with more positive outlook by the userbase than nerfs.

So basically, we want to know if what we intentionally gave these guys is enough already before we add onto them. We need to limit as many unintentional factors to see how the intentional ones play out. The demo helps us developers decide that.

If it's found that he is indeed lackluster in comparison to the rest of the cast, rest assured that we will consider the possibility of officially incorporating this mechanic into his play, as well as explore other possibilities!

 

[Strong Badam]

Lucas has an option that no one else does.

Wow, so totally bannable.

Wait a second, I just realized that Jigglypuff can't wave-shine... REMOVE FOX'S SHINE!

You forgot the part where I stated that not having an option in that situation inherent, intentional, important drawbacks to gaining invincibility by air dodging.

We aren't banning jack ****.

Your example is ******** and unrelated to this. This isn't a move that Lucas has and no one else does, it's canceling one of the global dodging mechanism with any of 4 moves.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You guys are wrong (being able to cancel an important mechanic doesn't matter), GuruKid is right. I'm done with this.

 

[Strong Badam]

If it doesn't matter then you shouldn't mind it being gone.

 

[B.W.]

Lucas has an option that no one else does.

Wow, so totally bannable.

Wait a second, I just realized that Jigglypuff can't wave-shine... REMOVE FOX'S SHINE!

And we've made a full circle.

Also I'll answer this real quick:

Why, Project? If it's broken, you can always remove it later.

Keeping a mechanic saying you can take it out later if it becomes a problem makes problems itself. If you decide to take out a full technique for the sake of balance you just ruined what made that character who he/she was and the main reason people played him

Lucas doesn't need this technique to begin with, we can't "wait and see" because if they don't do something about it now but do something about it later on they're 100% taking away someone's main. People won't pick up Lucas because they took out a unique tech, but people will drop him on the spot.

Basically it'd be too drastic of a change for the future and removing it in the future would be a bad look on the PMBR

 

[leelue]

Man, and I used to like Grim Fandango.

Thank you GuruKid for your insightful and comprehensive response.

To the Team, I hope I can apologize on behalf of the player base for giving you a little trouble here and there. It's merely human nature to take more than is given.

And to the player base, I apologize for generalizing you (us) into a group of toddlers. I just feel like the team has proven to be experts on this game, and their decisions (especially their staunch ones) should be more readily accepted as the right move.

But to be on topic

1) I could go for some stage conversation

2) How do I install music? I downloaded a file posted a while back onto my computer, but I don't know where on my SD card to put it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Man, and I used to like Grim Fandango.

Thank you GuruKid for your insightful and comprehensive response.

To the Team, I hope I can apologize on behalf of the player base for giving you a little trouble here and there. It's merely human nature to take more than is given.

And to the player base, I apologize for generalizing you (us) into a group of toddlers. I just feel like the team has proven to be experts on this game, and their decisions (especially their staunch ones) should be more readily accepted as the right move.

Sorry for not accepting every decision the devs make with 100% support and trust, especially when not given a reason until GuruKid showed up.

Don't try and paint me as the antagonist, Leelue, please. If no one disagreed, no progress would be made.

 

[M!nt]

2) How do I install music? I downloaded a file posted a while back onto my computer, but I don't know where on my SD card to put it.

use this http://blog.dantarion.com/brawl-custom-song-maker-gui/

 

[leelue]

Sorry for not accepting every decision the devs make with 100% support and trust, especially when not given a reason until GuruKid showed up.

Don't try and paint me as the antagonist, Leelue, please. If no one disagreed, no progress would be made.

I didn't say that disagreeing was not an option. I said that respecting the Team when they come down hard (as we saw) should be the default.
The disagreements posed by the probably will not and almost definitely should not have much if any bearing on what the Team will do in scenarios like the one we hopefully passed.
Yes, if nobody dissented, no progress would be made. But progress, by and large, is made by experts with experience in their field. While some of us may be expert smashers, or game designers, or whatever other qualifications you can imagine, virtually none of us have done what they have done, especially not to this extent, with this medium, and with such positive results. They are the experts, and they know what they are doing. We are not. We can tell them what is fun from an outside perspective, or even find glitches simply due to the virtue of having an extra thousand eyes and controllers. But when it comes to grand, overarching things like character balance and game mechanics, our less informed decisions, while novel, run the risk of being just that: less informed. I cannot stress with enough weight the difference between our experience and their proven expertise.

Also, I didn't paint you the antagonist. I only vocalized my change in opinion about you. Honestly, your overly argumentative, outspoken, and occasionally arrogant nature painted yourself the antagonist by itself.

I will now remove myself from any further conversation on any of the above matters. These types of debates will lead nowhere fast, and I do not feel like getting sucked into one (which is what inevitably will happen if I do not step out now. It's not cowardice, it's pattern recognition and foresight).

 

[M!nt]

Also, I didn't paint you the antagonist. I vocalized my change in opinion about you. Your overly argumentative, outspoken, and occasionally arrogant nature painted yourself the antagonist by itself.

Oh Snap!
10snaps

 

[leelue]

I cannot simply drag the files to someplace on my sd card? I'm a tech noob, so I honestly have no clue.

The files look like this

A01.brstm
W05.brstm

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If that's your opinion of me now, what was your opinion of me before? :3

 

[leelue]

More of an intellectual if aloof debater. Opinionated (which isn't a bad thing, really).
edit: I clearly am
edit: perhaps opinionated isnt the most accurate word. It's 5:55 AM at the moment... can't think

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Being outspoken isn't really a bad thing either

I'll accept the overly argumentative blow, I just don't like people feeling they were right because I've stopped replying, so I keep going.

Arrogant though? That hurts leelue, it hurts more than you can imagine. I don't think we can continue this relationship any longer, I'm breaking up with you.

</3

In other news: Can MK still scrooge in PM? If so, the new Temple should have the bottom blast-zone higher up, because he can waste heaps of time under it (in vBrawl at least).

I'm disappointed that the proposed stage discussion never came up.

 

[M!nt]

I cannot simply drag the files to someplace on my sd card? I'm a tech noob, so I honestly have no clue.

The files look like this

A01.brstm
W05.brstm

Yes you can. I assumed you didnt know the file names. You put the music files here
X:\private\wii\app\RSBE\pf\sound\strm\(Music Number).brstm

 

[_lemons]

I didn't care for most of the stages on the demo. I only played the demo once for a few hours the other day though, so take that with a grain of salt I guess.

 

[leelue]

@mint
Thanks a bundle
Can somebody think about putting this on the OP?
EDIT: my version doesn't have a sound folder. I tried a hackjob where I just made sounds and strm sequentially, followed by dragging the brstm files in. This did not work, I don't believe.

@grim
edit: you're right about the outspoken thing.
at least we ended on nice terms. I respect your reasoning skills, but VERY KINDLY suggest you tone it down a bit with the follow-ups. I honestly mean that with absolutely no harshness, since I do respect anyone who can put up a good word-fight (and i don't like it when other people think they won due to my silence either, so I get where you are coming from.)

@lemons
I think the massive size differences were a tad too apparent in the P:M stages, but for me they werent anything to worry about.



Well, lets talk stages. One at a time, covering a stage thoroughly until we feel good about where we ended up? I'd like that.

If nobody minds, i would like to spend time talking about the new Jungle (not rumble falls)

 

[Unlimited]

after playing the project m demo i've got one problem with it, it's missing a bunch of characters wtf?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Could someone get me a picture of the new Jungle?

 

[leelue]

^second this notion.
Cannot get one myself.

 

[JCaesar]

I hate fighting Zelda online. That is all.

Ahahaha someone played Ryoko

If nobody minds, i would like to spend time talking about the new Jungle (not rumble falls)

SSE: Jungle? It's ... huge. Definitely too big for singles.

I'll see if I can dig up a picture.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

This one?:

 

[JCaesar]

No, the super wide one with 4 platforms.

It looks kinda like this (ignore the dots):

. . . . . .
. . . . . .

 

[Grim Tuesday]

No idea what you're talking about xD

Still need a pic.

 

[JCaesar]

I couldn't find a pic. I ASCIIed it up in my last post.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

How high are the top platforms in comparison to say... Battlefield?

 

[shanus]

Regarding Lucas:

As someone who had originally noticed the mechanic back when I was originally coding the MAD, I can tell you how powerful it truthfully is. Now remember here that your joystick was only be a hair below horizontal to enable what we called a MAD B-Cancel. At the start, a lot of characters could do it since we had done pac based coding. What it essentially allows for is on the second frame of your jump to basically completely transfer your entire MAD momentum into a B move regardless of direction.

Imagine this on a character like Falco, as an example. If you Jumped, MAD to right left just slightly downwards you do a complete momentum reset with 100% of your MAD momentum into a Laser. It's crazy powerful.

Remember how people used to think AGT item throws and AGT zairs with 100% momentum were crazy? Imagine this with PK Freeze (fire) or his downB which is JCable. Trust me, this mechanic, while impressive, needs to be altered.

 

[Juushichi]

Seems about the same height really. As for the stage... I'm not entirely sure how I feel about it. I mean, I do like it. But even in doubles it seems like, if you wanted, you could just literally do 1v1's on opposite sides of the stage without being bothered. It's that big. The top platform layouts seem kinda odd too. Like you'd never really ever use them.

I know that I rarely use the highest platforms in like BF and YS save for waveband mixups but for SSE: Jungle it just seems out of place. More or less it's just different I guess. I'll have to play some more of it in doubles.

 

[leelue]

what does ASCII mean? See I'm trapped in 1997, the internet is still new to me. And tubes.

The top platforms on the sides are about 4/5ths as tall as the one in battlefield. Snake gets up to his head/shoulders when he full jumps up to one. Ganon's Up B can just clear it with maybe some air under his feet and land.

The lower platforms are fairly close to them both in height and in distance. Snake can just barely jump onto the lower platform in a full jump (looks equal in height to battlefield's lower platforms.). There is about a normal character (mario) distance between the two of each set.

The platforms are about 120-140% as long as the ones on battlefield.

The distance between the two halves (where the platforms lay, just bare space) is just about half as big as battlefield. From the start of an inner platform to the ledge is about just under 4/5s as big as battlefield, for a total of about 2 battlefields.

It's also almost if not exactly 6 snake rolls long (backwards rolls if that matters), making it just about 150% as big as the FD we have. pretty big.

The side platforms hang over the edge a tad. Pretty much as much as snake is wide.

Makeshift measuring job for the win, yo.

____...........................____
..........------.........------
..-------------------------------------

Like this^

God that was hell to make. Accurate though

To be clear, the ones on the sides are the ones i said you can ganon up b to, the ones near the middle are the ones that appear battlefield height.

EDIT: found a bad video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsJzQxht5rk

You can see everything at 1:37-1:40

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I personally think that its a great stage for doubles.

It can devolve into 1-on-1s, or both players on a team can stick to one side and use those platforms to their advantage.

It's just a different stage.

 

[leelue]

I haven't played any doubles yet, but my first impression is fairly negative. I would be hard pressed to implement teamwork on a stage with a total area 4x as long as battlefield.

Also, for completions sake, it seems the death zones are somewhere between 90 and 100% as far away from the main platform as they are in FD. The ceiling is just a smidgen shorter than fd (thank god)

 

[Revven]

In other news: Can MK still scrooge in PM? If so, the new Temple should have the bottom blast-zone higher up, because he can waste heaps of time under it (in vBrawl at least).

MK isn't in the demo so this doesn't really matter for the current state of the stage. Secondly, if MK does the glide attack to cancel his glide he goes into special fall regardless of whether he has full jumps or not. So it's not really the best idea to scrooge to begin with.

It's really not a problem right now (nor should it be). But we will keep an eye on it during development.

 

[shanus]

btw wired.com article, kind of spins us as brawl haters, but its good press:
http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2011/02/project-m/

 

[leelue]

Not bad Mr Mulligan. Not bad at all.

 

[shanus]

added a twitter for people who want to keep up to date on any official news
http://twitter.com/projectm_shanus

 

[standardtoaster]

For those who didn't know what the sse stage was:

 

[MK26]

and spontaneously sliding around the ground with no plausible force behind it looks cooooompletely natural.



moonwalking looks natural too.


"hey look i'm running this way"


"wait now i'm sliding backwards ... okay"

i was gonna get into the whole lucas ad-cancel discussion but i appear to have missed the boat
but i had to lol at this