We have recently started discussing the TLC that Zelda needs and are playing around with some options.
When we get something solidified I will post some details here. In the meantime, if you were going to improve Melee Zelda, what would you do?
Wow, this is a pretty big question that I'd love to discuss actually.
I played Zelda in Melee, but I only really got competitive with Smash during the Brawl era. But I'll do the best I can.
A rundown of all her moveset:
Jab
It was alright... though I'm pretty sure the one from Brawl+ would supercede this one in every way. Funny this is called Jab 'cause really her Dtilt is more of a jab if anything.
I feel like for a "glass cannon" character, her jab actually deals pretty low damage for the startup (5~6% / Hits on frame 11) especially since it's not really link-able into another one in most situations.
Ftilt
In Melee I'm pretty sure this was pretty "blah". Nothing that great about it really. Slow start up and pretty sure it had a lot of afterlag too. Terrible on shield.
It had some pretty crazy follow ups in B+, but only at low-ish%. Some people who suffered from high hitstun could get comboed into Ftilt > Uair > Death if you did it fast enough but they had to be at a really specific %.
I think the B+ ver. of Ftilt is pretty acceptable. Though it seems to be stuck in limbo between KO-esque move VS combo/set-up starter. Once you get into moderately higher percents the knockback becomes big enough to make followup impossible, but low enough so it doesn't KO until pretty late. I feel like Zelda has more than enough KO moves in her arsenal, and perhaps Ftilt should be geared towards something like a shield pressuring move or something. I feel like this is a move that could really be changed to make her moveset a lot more versatile/varied.
The biggest longshot I could see to change it could be something like... increasing it's range, faster IASA so that Fsmash isn't almost always better to use in almost every situation not to mention safer(Fsmash and Ftilt have identical IASA, frame 40).
Something to make it not suck on shields!
Fsmash
If only it wasn't so ridiculously escape-able in Melee... but other than that part, it was actually one of her better moves, if not one of her best. Let's just not think about how Jigglypuff could crouch cancel > Rest her arm or something like that...
B+ pretty much solved the issues with this one. I think for now this is good as the B+ ver.
Dtilt
In Melee... uh, I just remember CPU Zeldas being really good at timing these out of nowhere, lol. It was kind of a funny meteor if you hit someone on the ledge I guess...? There wasn't that much utility on this one.
Concerning B+, I think as a "jab" this is pretty nice. Basically use this for grounded opponents and her actual Jab for aerial/further ones.
The difference though is this "jab" leads into some pretty mean followups (at least in B+). It was a really nice combo/setup starter.
I actually found this move an essential staple for Zelda... though I know there may have been issues with balancing it or something. Though I find it's pros/cons seem to be pretty balanced. Low, shallow range but great damage-racking/combo capabilities.
This feels like a stay with move to me.
Dsmash
Oh Lord, a move that actually was decent in Melee. Fast startup, decent knockback plus wickedly scary angle and I think it's cooldown was actually shorter than in Brawl (
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlOK6EgFgUY#t=4m46s). One of the few Zelda moves in Melee that was good.
Of course in B+ and all, this was pretty much maintained. Fast (frame 4, faster than Dtilt!), can lead to some silly damage (The front kick hitting the opponent backward into the 2nd kick is pretty hilarious, albeit hard to replicate often) pretty much a great GTFO move.
Of course it is balanced by having pretty long afterlag and being terrible on shields.
I don't see any reason to change this form the B+ version. Seems pretty alright to me.
Utilt
Melee ver. of this was actually a better KO move than Usmash if I remember... but other than that I dunno.
B+ ver., it has a nice lingering hit box with KO-power rivaling Snake's Utilt even... though it, wayyy less range and slower startup/cooldown. I remember someone also saying basically this was kind of a Bowser Utilt but worse in every way.
I like how this potentially has better KO power than Usmash 'cause Usmash already has a lot of good things going for it and it'd be nice to give more utility to her Utilt.
I remember a suggestion to make her Utilt knock back angle 90 degrees or something... making it very hard to survive DI wise compared to her USmash, but obviously riskier and harder to hit with and pull off because of it's slower speed and Usmash is a lot easier to do out of a run.
Usmash
Suffered from escape-able syndrome in Melee, but other than that would be decent-ish.
B+ had the notorious tendency to not be able to decide what kind of move they wanted Usmash to be. It was literally changed every set it seemed like 'cause it was either too combo-able, too powerful or both.
I mean, it's a great move as it can catch air dodges pretty easily because of it's extremely long lasting hitbox, not to mention can juggle at lower percents pretty easily too. But it's horrendous on shields (she seems to have this problem often... which is one of her most glaring flaws).
I actually don't know what people will want to do with this one... Usmash on paper seems a lot better to use in almost every situation you'd want to use Utilt, except Usmash has slightly less killing power. Hmm...
Maybe make Usmash the combo-move and Utilt the KO one?
Nair
In Melee, I think the best thing about it was SHFFLC-ing it so that only the first few hitboxes hit the opponent so that you could follow up with something while they were in the hitstun... not completely sure about this one though.
B+ Nair was a nice damage racker... and also could be maybe used in the same way as in Melee. Though it sucks again shield (Surpriseee).
More shieldstun or something?
Fair/Bair
Basically were much more versatile in Melee because it was like 10% for sourspot (compared to the pitiful 4%~ Brawl ones do, which is less than 1/2 the damage) so even if you whiffed, you'd at least be racking up decent damage. To put it in perspective...
- 10 whiffed kicks in Melee would deal 70~80%.
- 10 whiffed kicks in Brawl would deal 30~40%.
That's kind of a big difference.
Plus if I remember correctly, the sourspot kicks have more knockback in Melee than in Brawl I believe so it was also safer for her to sourspot without getting counterattacked as easily... but don't quote me on that one. I believe it could get to a point where if they were high % enough, it would send them into a spiral tumble or something if you sourspotted.
Melee kicks were also easier to aim as well if I remember. As long as the sweetspot hitbox overlaps onto an opponent's hurtbox, it would sweetspot despite other hitboxes hitting the opponent (her F/Bair has like 4 hitboxes or something). But in Brawl, only the sweetspot hitbox was allowed to overlap the opponent's hurtbox for it to sweetspot, which means if any other parts of the F/Bair are hitting the opponent despite the sweetspot hitting, it would sourspot.
There was also the issue of Brawl F/Bair being lame and doing the freezeframe thing if you hit shield... that just sucked.
The only upside for Melee F/Bair to Brawl F/Bair is her sweetspots got more powerful, going from 15%~18%ish to 20% with extra knockback or something. But the overall utility of her Melee ver. of F/Bair, it's pretty obvious Melee wins out.
Dair
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIJv7cCq-jM#t=4m22s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIJv7cCq-jM#t=5m41s
Those are some pretty fun examples of her Melee Dair (Wow that just showered me in nostalgia).
The only thing I remember about Dair being good is the Melee sourspot being better than the Brawl sourspot. I'm actually not so sure about how good the sweetspot Dair is in Melee.
I do however hope that sweetspot Dair is turned into a true spike or something... if it isn't already.
Uair
Melee Uair was weird... slow to come out and the animation was extremely deceiving with low knockback (could barely kill at all). But it did have some small combo-ability it seems...
Uair in Brawl was the strongest Uair in the game I believe. But it's utility was dampened with the way air dodges worked. With Melee Airdodge though... I think it's gonna get a lot more crazy.
I'm pretty sure this move is alright the way it is for now as the Brawl/B+ version.
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Too tired now to type up the rest... maybe tomorrow or something. Sorry for the long winded post (changes and edits probably to come later too).