Project M Social Thread

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'm 100% for a Doc costume, if it is possible.

YL, Pichu, and Roy are silly. Roy is a consideration for fanservice purposes, but that's it. He offers nothing of substance to the game.

Mewtwo, sure. I still think he's pretty similar to Lucario, but his moveset and physics are just different enough that having both feels worthwhile.

EDIT: Before someone attempts to e-castrate me, I am aware that Mewtwo and Lucario are different in a lot of ways, but Lucario is clearly derivative of Mewtwo (inspired by).

What I'd really like to see is the return of some of the other "forbidden" characters that didn't make it, particularly Toon Zelda and Toon Tetra (YESSSS), Dixie Kong, etc.

 

[Shell]

They are certainly no more similar than Mario and Luigi.

 

[Stevo]

I'm 100% for a Doc costume, if it is possible.

YL, Pichu, and Roy are silly. Roy is a consideration for fanservice purposes, but that's it. He offers nothing of substance to the game.

Mewtwo, sure. I still think he's pretty similar to Lucario, but his moveset and physics are just different enough that having both feels worthwhile.

EDIT: Before someone attempts to e-castrate me, I am aware that Mewtwo and Lucario are different in a lot of ways, but Lucario is clearly derivative of Mewtwo (inspired by).

What I'd really like to see is the return of some of the other "forbidden" characters that didn't make it, particularly Toon Zelda and Toon Tetra (YESSSS), Dixie Kong, etc.

by your logic, falco is derivative of fox, and therefore would fall under the same category as mewtwo?

mewtwo was his own character and should be first in line I think. Adding Roy would make the game have 3 fire emblem characters (not overkill at all). Yes he doesnt add THAT MUCH difference from Marth, but why cant Roy be what Falco is to Fox? or Ganon is to falcon?

Using Roy rather than adding a COMPLETELY original character will take less time, and be a lot less controversial.

I think Project:M could be released with Mewtwo and Roy added, and nobody would complain, because we have something to base them on.

If any of the other 3 removed characters had significant reason to be added as well, then I think they would be fine too. But at this point, I don't see a reason for their inclusion.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Incidentally, I'm not advocating for the removal of Mario or Luigi.

by your logic, falco is derivative of fox, and therefore would fall under the same category as mewtwo?

mewtwo was his own character and should be first in line I think. Adding Roy would make the game have 3 fire emblem characters (not overkill at all). Yes he doesnt add THAT MUCH difference from Marth, but why cant Roy be what Falco is to Fox? or Ganon is to falcon?

Using Roy rather than adding a COMPLETELY original character will take less time, and be a lot less controversial.

I think Project:M could be released with Mewtwo and Roy added, and nobody would complain, because we have something to base them on.

If any of the other 3 removed characters had significant reason to be added as well, then I think they would be fine too. But at this point, I don't see a reason for their inclusion.

I'm not disagreeing with you.

And yes, I think Falco and Fox are too similar. One of the things I'm least happy with in regards to Project: M is that a lot of the things that made Falco different in Brawl were reverted in order to make him similar to Fox again. I don't see what they problem with him having his own nair is, for instance.

 

[Stevo]

mostly to allow complete transition from melee to P:M

there are MANY falco mains in melee

(Edit: I assume this is the reason anyway, Im not part of the project)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I don't think you are considering the whole picture, which is basically that Project: M has two camps it could potentially want to satisfy.

The first camp is the general Smash audience, who will likely enjoy Smash gamplay no matter what. For instance, I have enjoyed all three games greatly. I also really enjoyed Brawl+, Brawl-, and Balanced Brawl. I like platform fighters. This gamer is likely considered more with the big picture (i.e., why is Fox exactly the same as Falco in every smash game) and less with the continuation of the Melee community.

The second (and possibly most considered) camp are hardcore Melee players, who are likely traditionalist and want any future Smash titles to play almost exactly like Melee. Melee is the epitome of perfect Smash gameplay to this camp. Any deviations are going to feel bad to this camp, including big character changes that make their favorite characters slightly different. This game is being designed mostly for this camp. "I like Falco the way he is" is going to be a really strong sentiment here.

I probably could have worded some of this better, but the point is this is not a Smash community game development project, it is a community's pet project. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's hard to deny this is the reasoning for a lot of the changes and non-changes made (l-cancelling, clones, etc. things that aren't considered good design or gameplay but are being kept for the sake of tradition).

I do wish there was a little less traditional development and more progressive thought but also realize this game isn't being made for me.

 

[Stevo]

the M stands for Melee

its for the second camp

and like you said, the first camp will probably be happy with a smash game anyway.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The game could feel a lot like melee and remain very challenging, technical and fast if Falco had a slightly different move set. That's all I'm saying. "Without my character doing exactly the same things he did in melee with the same models and animations it just isn't the same" sounds a whole lot like "Just play melee" to me.

What I hope Project: M ultimately ends up being is a modular community-built Smash game based on a culmination of the best mechanics in the Smash series (many elements of melee but also some of brawl) with a touch of compromise and the capacity for community balance tweaks and expansions several years down the line when we know more about the game than we do now. You can't "balance patch" melee. For that reason I think Project: M is a great idea.

The best thing about the hacking community is that once a fighting game is released into the world, it changes immediately. Brawl and Melee's metagames are based on millions of hours of game play, whereas the development team's vision of the metagame (if they had one) was based on the impressions of a small playtesting team. (For this reason, I sort of scoff at anyone who says Sakurai "sucks" at balancing a fighting game.)

 

[OverLade]

Melee Falco is already a perfect character imo. While some characters need aspects from Brawl and 64, Melee falco is a character that there's no need to tamper with... He's literally self balancing.

 

[I R MarF]

I don't think you are considering the whole picture, which is basically that Project: M has two camps it could potentially want to satisfy.

The first camp is the general Smash audience, who will likely enjoy Smash gamplay no matter what. For instance, I have enjoyed all three games greatly. I also really enjoyed Brawl+, Brawl-, and Balanced Brawl. I like platform fighters. This gamer is likely considered more with the big picture (i.e., why is Fox exactly the same as Falco in every smash game) and less with the continuation of the Melee community.

The second (and possibly most considered) camp are hardcore Melee players, who are likely traditionalist and want any future Smash titles to play almost exactly like Melee. Melee is the epitome of perfect Smash gameplay to this camp. Any deviations are going to feel bad to this camp, including big character changes that make their favorite characters slightly different. This game is being designed mostly for this camp. "I like Falco the way he is" is going to be a really strong sentiment here.

I probably could have worded some of this better, but the point is this is not a Smash community game development project, it is a community's pet project. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's hard to deny this is the reasoning for a lot of the changes and non-changes made (l-cancelling, clones, etc. things that aren't considered good design or gameplay but are being kept for the sake of tradition).

I do wish there was a little less traditional development and more progressive thought but also realize this game isn't being made for me.

The competitive aspect of Melee is what kept the game alive for 9 years+

This obvious fact should have been recognized by Sakurai. because intentionally making Brawl uncompetitive probably sliced the game's longevity. TBH, were it not for modders and game hacks many dissapointed fans would have gone back to Melee a while ago.

So if the Project M team wants to recreate Melee's magic (which of course includes keeping the appeal of Melee fans who have been playing the game for over 9 years) they'll stick with what works. Even if that is clones or "things that aren't considered good design or gameplay".

If you want competitive non-clone brawl play Brawl+.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It is possible to recreate melee's magic and keep melee players interested without cloning a game that already exists.

Hell, clone it. Don't mind me, I'll play it and enjoy the PMBR's hard work regardless. But every time I see someone wanting to replace one of the pretty new Brawl models with an old Melee one I =/.

 

[GP&B]

There is a good Doc costume out there, by the way.

 

[Shadic]

One of the things I'm least happy with in regards to Project: M is that a lot of the things that made Falco different in Brawl were reverted in order to make him similar to Fox again. I don't see what they problem with him having his own nair is, for instance.

Remember this project is still in basically an alpha state. Just saying.

 

[a nub]

Why would you want brawl falco's moves? His melee moves are pretty much all better and more dynamic. I think they're keeping brawl jab but that's pretty much all that should change, he worked just fine in melee.

For example that nair you mentioned. It has advantages and drawbacks compared to dair so why trash it for the sake of some random brawl players (stupidly) saying LOL CLONES? Like I said before brawl falco's moves don't have the flow of melee falco's and they mostly look pretty lame anyway

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Remember this project is still in basically an alpha state. Just saying.

Aknowledged, but I see Falco's current "state" as being ideological and not design-related.

For example that nair you mentioned. It has advantages and drawbacks compared to dair so you cant just trash it for the sake of some random brawl players (stupidly) saying LOL CLONES. Like I said before brawl falco's moves don't have the flow of melee falco's and they mostly look pretty lame anyway

Who said anything about keeping his brawl nair?

 

[TommyDerMeister]

I don't see what they problem with him having his own nair is, for instance

You, somewhat did. Not completely though since it says "for instance" afterward.

 

[Shell]

Aside from the Melee top and high tiers, you can expect to find a lot of fresh new things in each and every character.

 

[Stevo]

I completely agree with that decision, as it takes what was great about melee (the competitive aspect, ie the high and top tiers) and just adds to it.

basically its not taking away from the high tiers (which people will like) and adds to the low tiers (which people will like)

win/win I think.

 

[Akuma2120]

Who would really want toon zelda and sheik? We've got 1 too many toon characters as it is >_> I want YL back

But really Mewtwo and Roy should return, Roy is similar to Marth yes but so was Ganondorf to Falcon and he's looking pretty solid

Anything after these 2? I have a feeling there would be some absolute hate and dismissal of PM by hardcore Melee players who want nothing more than a SSBM clone with slightly better graphics, at least by some, I think others would see it as a great opporunity to build on to the true sequel of Melee

If that's considered I'd say look at some of the AT characters and build off them, they have some moves, so like Gray Fox or Shadow or the boxing guy(forget his name) I can see them all being unique

 

[I R MarF]

It is possible to recreate melee's magic

Its possible.

and keep melee players interested without cloning a game that already exists.

Imagine if a true sequel to Melee came out tommorrow. Everything that was in Melee was kept exactly the same except for one minor thing: Falco can not longer jump out of his shine and instead kicks it like he does in Brawl.

There would definitely be controversy amongst falco users.

So, in point, if the P:M team wants to appeal to the Melee fans they have to be VERY delicate and very accurate when recreating Melee. Of course, this is more or less Melee 2.0 (not Melee 1.1) so there will be differences to improve characters but on the subject of well-off chars like Falco they are better left untouched.

Hell, clone it. Don't mind me, I'll play it and enjoy the PMBR's hard work regardless. But every time I see someone wanting to replace one of the pretty new Brawl models with an old Melee one I =/.

I am pretty sure none of the textures/vertex hacks will be forced. They will either be optional or you'll have to get them on your own.

 

[Sora-kun]

The best thing about the hacking community is that once a fighting game is released into the world, it changes immediately. Brawl and Melee's metagames are based on millions of hours of game play, whereas the development team's vision of the metagame (if they had one) was based on the impressions of a small playtesting team. (For this reason, I sort of scoff at anyone who says Sakurai "sucks" at balancing a fighting game.)

...He gave meta knight absolute priority/speed/recovery/everything. He gave snake hitboxes the size of a small country. he made link suck. period. he put in mechanics that could decide the winner based on luck which is one of the game design deadly sins. Why didn't he just make it so you had to toss a coin to decide the winner? Then we'd all get to go home faster and less people get thrown into bottomless pits. Worst of all he made pit brokenz wit da arrowz and ike wuz made tew strongz!
/notsrs

Point being he made HORRIBLE decisions that could never be thought as "balanced" in ANYONE'S mind. He failed pretty hard.

Also, how did this turn from an anti-roy campaign (*glare*) to a "why da hell r u adding klones again you conformist *******s?!!?"
srsly?

 

[Stevo]

I have a question.

aerial grapples aren't gonna be left how they are I'm assuming, so what is the plan for those? I personally think they should have landing lag.

But either way, I think people should not use them in their test battles of P:M because they are not gonna be left like that. seeing someone spam air grapples doesn't give me a good feel of P:M.

It just annoys me.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

...He gave meta knight absolute priority/speed/recovery/everything. He gave snake hitboxes the size of a small country. he made link suck. period. he put in mechanics that could decide the winner based on luck which is one of the game design deadly sins. Why didn't he just make it so you had to toss a coin to decide the winner? Then we'd all get to go home faster and less people get thrown into bottomless pits. Worst of all he made pit brokenz wit da arrowz and ike wuz made tew strongz!
/notsrs

Point being he made HORRIBLE decisions that could never be thought as "balanced" in ANYONE'S mind. He failed pretty hard.

Also, how did this turn from an anti-roy campaign (*glare*) to a "why da hell r u adding klones again you conformist *******s?!!?"
srsly?

Luck is only a game design sin if a game is designed to be super-competitive.

As for character design, turn every item in the game on medium and suddenly character designs matter a lot less. That's how Brawl and Melee both were envisioned -- huge, chaos-ridden brawls where nothing makes sense and **** is blowing up everywhere. We are attempting to impose structure onto something that wasn't intended to have any. You are imposing your ideas as a player onto a game as a whole. Inherently, randomization is fine, especially if you aren' designing a competitive game. "But I play it competitively!" doesn't cut it, since anything can be played competitively. Character design, in this vein, is just an attempt at making sure each character feels like they came from the series they originated in. Link as a hulking, inflexible tank with projectiles and cludgy physics makes sense from this standpoint.

Put another way, if randomization is a sin in competitive games and Brawl/Melee have randomization, maybe they aren't supposed to be competitive. If you play it competitively, you have to accept the wrongs.

 

[Shadic]

Aknowledged, but I see Falco's current "state" as being ideological and not design-related.

Our goal is to replicate the function of Melee top tiers as accurately as possible. It's possible to do that while keeping minor ideas that we given to him in Brawl's incarnation. Several Brawl animations could not be kept at the same time as faithfully recreating a character that needed to move changes, especially moves that were important to his moveset. Falco still is not finished.

Also Sakurai sucks. Three Smash games, and Link is in the bottom 10% of the cast in two of them? Nerfing a mediocre character in a PAL port? (May not be his fault, but still) Thinking Mewtwo or Pichu were balanced? Thinking Metaknight was balanced? Making a slightly than larger, athletically built, realistic man (Snake) weigh less than a giant penguin? Or a giant fire-breathing dragon!?

Melee being the amazing competitive game that it is was a pure fluke.

 

[BEES]

I don't think you are considering the whole picture, which is basically that Project: M has two camps it could potentially want to satisfy.

The first camp is the general Smash audience, who will likely enjoy Smash gamplay no matter what. For instance, I have enjoyed all three games greatly. I also really enjoyed Brawl+, Brawl-, and Balanced Brawl. I like platform fighters. This gamer is likely considered more with the big picture (i.e., why is Fox exactly the same as Falco in every smash game) and less with the continuation of the Melee community.

The second (and possibly most considered) camp are hardcore Melee players, who are likely traditionalist and want any future Smash titles to play almost exactly like Melee. Melee is the epitome of perfect Smash gameplay to this camp. Any deviations are going to feel bad to this camp, including big character changes that make their favorite characters slightly different. This game is being designed mostly for this camp. "I like Falco the way he is" is going to be a really strong sentiment here.

I probably could have worded some of this better, but the point is this is not a Smash community game development project, it is a community's pet project. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's hard to deny this is the reasoning for a lot of the changes and non-changes made (l-cancelling, clones, etc. things that aren't considered good design or gameplay but are being kept for the sake of tradition).

I do wish there was a little less traditional development and more progressive thought but also realize this game isn't being made for me.

Pardon me but there is a third camp that want Melee 2.0, not Melee 1.1

We don't consider Melee perfect, and we are willing to accept changes that improve the depth and challenge of the game. We just recognize that the type of gameplay in Melee is ideal, so whatever new things are added should try to promote an aggressive, fast-paced, skillful game.

 

[Revven]

I have a question.

aerial grapples aren't gonna be left how they are I'm assuming, so what is the plan for those? I personally think they should have landing lag.

But either way, I think people should not use them in their test battles of P:M because they are not gonna be left like that. seeing someone spam air grapples doesn't give me a good feel of P:M.

It just annoys me.

They already have lag, 10 frames to be exact, and they go into special fall if not used low to the ground.

 

[TL?]

Roy would be an awesome addition if a completely working clone engine that doesn't need to replace any of the main cast gets created. He is different from marth. To say he's a useless clone would be like saying that falco is as well. Only difference is that roy wasn't top tier.

 

[AeonClock]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlBKrNFpO38
Videos like this make me look forward to the final product of this project even more. To make a character that was so low in the tiers for so long look VIABLE is worthy of some mad props.


Well to me it looks like Melee is more of a template to build project M than anything. It's essentially a completely new game. Not Melee. Not Brawl. That's what makes me so excited to see how its going to turn out. It's just like waiting for the next SSB :D

 

[Archangel]

I think Super Model From Paris brings up some good points. However I think you should go back and follow the timeline of Brawl+, Balanced Brawl...etc.

If you go back and look closely through the closed threads full of drawn out discussion or debate you'll find your points aren't unique. Neither are the counter arguments either. Trying not to make melee 2.0 was the decision Brawl+ made. Going in a whole new direction. Getting rid of traditions like Manual L-canceling, Melee air dodge, Wave dashing, Meteor canceling....etc.

Now it's been proven that this pathway inevitably leads to failure. There simply isn't enough reason enough people in the Brawl, Melee, or other communities to seriously get behind a project like that. Those it ends up as a stepchild of the smash community. Tolerated but not really part of the family.

 

[Sora-kun]

Luck is only a game design sin if a game is designed to be super-competitive.

As for character design, turn every item in the game on medium and suddenly character designs matter a lot less. That's how Brawl and Melee both were envisioned -- huge, chaos-ridden brawls where nothing makes sense and **** is blowing up everywhere. We are attempting to impose structure onto something that wasn't intended to have any. You are imposing your ideas as a player onto a game as a whole. Inherently, randomization is fine, especially if you aren' designing a competitive game. "But I play it competitively!" doesn't cut it, since anything can be played competitively. Character design, in this vein, is just an attempt at making sure each character feels like they came from the series they originated in. Link as a hulking, inflexible tank with projectiles and cludgy physics makes sense from this standpoint.

Put another way, if randomization is a sin in competitive games and Brawl/Melee have randomization, maybe they aren't supposed to be competitive. If you play it competitively, you have to accept the wrongs.

Smash has been competitive since 64. He knew that it would be competitive and he did everything in his power to **** that over. That's pretty sadistic. Anyway, the point is that he made a lot of terrible decisions just so it wouldn't be competitive. He ****ed over smash's biggest fanbase and made a poorly balanced game. He KNEW it would be played without items and that giving someone absolute everything would be ******** (at least.. i really hope he did e.e cuz if he didn't he has problems). I know that smash wasn't meant to be competitive but breaking a game just to prevent it is the worst idea in the history of anything.

Also, the whole "Link's design makes sense thing" is blasphemy. He nerfed him for no coherent reason. How does a "hulking tank's" strongest move having the KB of a jab make sense?

But i digress, the discussion isn't about my hate rant on sakurai it's about your anti-roy campaign (*glare again*)
If they modify his moveset into something more original then i see no reason why he shouldn't return. Some people really like Roy. They have the capabilities to add characters now and i see no reason why this should be wasted by only adding mewtwo. Mewtwo and Roy are the ones that should be added. One extra character will NOT murder the game.

Anyway i'm gonna resign from this argument because i'm kinda tired and i'm not thinking straight. I can tell some of my "logic" probably was off so.. ya <_< you win.
Just to sum it up: Brawl is a horribly balanced game whether it was intended that way or not. He made stupid design decisions because he thought the millions of melee players who don't use items would just magically go away to allow the glorious C-stick/B-mashing master race to repopulate.


ROY FOR PRESIDENT

 

[NatP]

It's just like waiting for the next SSB :D

Yeah, exactly! This to me is Super Smash Bros 3.5 . I am almost as hyped for this as I was for Brawl. (Which is quite a bit)

 

[Stevo]

They already have lag, 10 frames to be exact, and they go into special fall if not used low to the ground.

alright
well I don't like that you can combo with them, but I'll get over it.

thanks for the response

 

[FireBall Stars]

Well, Roy may be a clone of Marth, yes

But the way he plays is completely different. Not only his gameplay is grounded since his aerials have horrible knockback and damage even with the sweetspot, and his very, very short short-hop just encourages even more the ground game; the main functions of his aerials are to complement his ground moves, in the ground.

He relies mostly on setups to his finishers, not only his best setup move, dtilt lets him hit hard hitting moves on low percents or even high percents on fastfallers. His aerials only really have use if you want to give little damage time to time of to give you setup to use a better attack and try to finish the stock

The needed buffs are very obvious to every Roy player.

It would be great if his Ftilt and Utilt was turned on his main ground tool along with Dtilt anyway :B

btw, we don't even know if he will really gonna make it, I see no point in discussing Roy by now.

 

[Shadic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlBKrNFpO38
Videos like this make me look forward to the final product of this project even more. To make a character that was so low in the tiers for so long look VIABLE is worthy of some mad props.

Glad you like my Link rebuild. He's still got a few tricks to come, but he's certainly solid right now. AGT does a lot to his game.

 

[GP&B]

USmash seems to move faster, UpB is obviously much stronger (along with awesome effects :D), Gale Boomerang is now just the Boomerang, and I think the Nair animation was slightly changed?

 

[AeonClock]

Glad you like my Link rebuild. He's still got a few tricks to come, but he's certainly solid right now. AGT does a lot to his game.

Lol seriously? He's already pretty **** good.
And his spin attack has such a nasty spike trajectory :D
What happened with the boomerang at 0:25 though?

 

[Revven]

alright
well I don't like that you can combo with them, but I'll get over it.

thanks for the response

This is more due to the fact that MAD still produces momentum for them allowing you to push yourself forward with a Zair to get in close. Otherwise, without that, you probably wouldn't see them used as much. When that will get fixed is uncertain however.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Wow, Link looks viable in that vid. Spin Attack is useful, the boomerang looks pretty great, and now I know what the animation for Lucas' Offense Up looks like.

Now I'm going to have to go find a vid of Wario.

 

[stingers]

i like the new zairs. it adds a lot of depth to those characters gameplay.

 

[AeonClock]

i like the new zairs. it adds a lot of depth to those characters gameplay.

Yeah, I was surprised at Lucas's though. It can combo into a freakin' F-smash! lol

EDIT: And Lucas's U-tilt is too **** good @.@
One of the best it looks like