Project M Social Thread

[Shadic]

Lol seriously? He's already pretty **** good.
And his spin attack has such a nasty spike trajectory :D
What happened with the boomerang at 0:25 though?

He is pretty solid so far, but we've got to implement a few things left from Melee. As for the boomerang hitting Link - Lucas powershielded it, I believe.

And thanks for the compliments on the boomerang, you guys. Camelot and I put some good work into it. I've got a complaint or two about it that'll be fixed before release, but it's definitely pretty solid in my experience so far.

It's nice playing a Link that's finally a true contender, that's for sure.

 

[OverLade]

A huge part of a character being viable is ability to negate pressure and threaten with their own. Characters like Link are definitely still bad overall at the moment because of this, especially after watching that video.

 

[I R MarF]

This is more due to the fact that MAD still produces momentum for them allowing you to push yourself forward with a Zair to get in close. Otherwise, without that, you probably wouldn't see them used as much. When that will get fixed is uncertain however.

IMO, the zair setup is great. Like stingers said, it adds some new techs for mains of those chars to master and is a buff. It's not like other characters don't have broken set ups anyway *cough* fox shffled dair to usmash *cough*




Also, in regards to the clone engine I am hoping Roy and Mewtwo will brought back.

Roy definitely needs stronger aerials (That includes dair spike), ftilt, and utilt. (but that is obvious) Also, I like the whole tug mechanic with sourspots; sourspotted fairs and bairs pulling chars above him for a uair juggles might be intersting.

Also, this may seem really farfetched but how would Roy play out if he had a sex kick? I only say this because it would be an interesting way to separate him from Marth just a bit more and a sex kick would compliment his short hop more than his two -hit nair.

 

[AeonClock]

A huge part of a character being viable is ability to negate pressure and threaten with their own. Characters like Link are definitely still bad overall at the moment because of this, especially after watching that video.

You should watch more vids of him then lol
I don't know what it is, probably his new fall speed, but he seems MUCH faster now. I think his dash attack needs a buff though .___.

 

[OverLade]

You should watch more vids of him then lol
I don't know what it is, probably his new fall speed, but he seems MUCH faster now. I think his dash attack needs a buff though .___.

I just did. He won't stand up to good Falco/Fox/Marth/Sheik players (**** melee chars) and probably some of the beter brawl characters as well. His recovery still sucks and he's still easy to combo. He's like Snake with worse options right now. He'll probably get better as dev continues (balancing phase) but right now he's definitely wont be viable in a competitive metagame outside of exceptional players.

 

[stingers]

lol I think some of you (RedHal) equate easiness with effectiveness

 

[OverLade]

It's almost the same thing. In Brawl average players can perform at the top level with MK, while only extremely exceptional players can compete with other high tiers.

That's why there are 20 MKs that place in the top 1 percent, and only 1 marth, 1 falco, 1 or 2 Diddy Kongs etc.

If it's POSSIBLE to compete with top MKs with Diddy, it's only at a level where Diddy Kong is near perfect, meaning 99 percent of players won't be able to pull it off, meaning that the 0ther 99 percent would be better off using MK and performing at top level anwyay.

The requirements for consistently beating top tiers with Link would require level 9 like reaction speed...which isn't humanly possible. When something is "possible", it depends if it's possible within a reasonable human skillgap...

 

[BEES]

I think Super Model From Paris brings up some good points. However I think you should go back and follow the timeline of Brawl+, Balanced Brawl...etc.

If you go back and look closely through the closed threads full of drawn out discussion or debate you'll find your points aren't unique. Neither are the counter arguments either. Trying not to make melee 2.0 was the decision Brawl+ made. Going in a whole new direction. Getting rid of traditions like Manual L-canceling, Melee air dodge, Wave dashing, Meteor canceling....etc.

Now it's been proven that this pathway inevitably leads to failure. There simply isn't enough reason enough people in the Brawl, Melee, or other communities to seriously get behind a project like that. Those it ends up as a stepchild of the smash community. Tolerated but not really part of the family.

I would say Brawl+ failed because it was too much like Brawl, not necessarily because it wasn't close enough to Melee. I think a third game can work. The B+ backroom never had the intention of taking it in a new direction like that.

If they wanted a game that lacked the tech barriers from Melee but kept the competitive depth, they would have had to add new techniques that have not been seen in Smash, and that was clearly outside their comfort zone.

 

[stingers]

MK happens to just be better than everyone else. It has nothing to do with easiness (though that's why he's popular, of course), but simply because he's just that good. Sakurai sucks. Correlation does not imply causation.

 

[OverLade]

MK happens to just be better than everyone else. It has nothing to do with easiness (though that's why he's popular, of course), but simply because he's just that good. Correlation does not imply causation.

It doesn't imply causation, but in this case, he's both the best character AND the easiest character to use. This can't be disputed. I could prove it to you using results and theorycraft...

 

[stingers]

okay I never argued with that lol. i was actually agreeing with you about that.

 

[GHNeko]

*sees topic title*

*cries tears of joy*

I love this game.

Also, Manchu would rock.

I also love you.

Manchu:M = ****

 

[Strong Badam]

totally unimpressed by the amount of theorycraft in here.

 

[stingers]

totally unimpressed by the amount of theorycraft in here.

yeah same. like 9/10ths of you have never even played the game.

 

[Siglemic]

then let us play it

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

think of falco/fox/falcon/etc in smash as the ryu/ken/chunli of street fighter. for dozens of installments of street fighter those characters (among others) have developed a formula and playstyle which became the canon of their games. how can you imagine ken without his hadouken, sure they added new things overtime, but their base gameplay was still there. sf4 even preserved some of the subtle glitches (kara grabbing i believe was the name) which gave those characters that edge. they could have went ahead and reimagined the characters, but since they knew they filled their own niches and became so iconic, they went with not tampering them.

the same is true of our spacies and other high tiers, their playstyles have become the canon and basis of the smash bros melee scene. by changing around these top characters, characters that have proven to work and play well and have weaknesses and strengths that balance them out, we would be undermining the whole project. without fox falco falcon etc in their forms from melee, we wouldn't have anything to base our balancing methods off of, we wouldn't have anything to compare them to. brawl falco may have had a bunch of stuff given to him in brawl, but it was much too alien, and falco's playstyle, if not presence was so integral to melee. granted we could start over again, but those characters provide enjoyable experiences that have stood the test of time, and have thus become staples of the smash bros melee genre.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I remember having to explain to someone the difference between Fox in Melee and MK in Brawl. They... didn't quite get it.

 

[shanus]

then let us play it

when its ready, we will

 

[rPSIvysaur]

*sees topic title*

*cries tears of joy*

I love this game.




I also love you.

Manchu:M = ****

Took you **** long enough.

 

[OverLade]

Puff is a lot more analogous to MK in brawl.

Diddy is Fox.

Snake is Falco.

 

[Shell]

think of falco/fox/falcon/etc in smash as the ryu/ken/chunli of street fighter. for dozens of installments of street fighter those characters (among others) have developed a formula and playstyle which became the canon of their games. how can you imagine ken without his hadouken, sure they added new things overtime, but their base gameplay was still there. sf4 even preserved some of the subtle glitches (kara grabbing i believe was the name) which gave those characters that edge. they could have went ahead and reimagined the characters, but since they knew they filled their own niches and became so iconic, they went with not tampering them.

the same is true of our spacies and other high tiers, their playstyles have become the canon and basis of the smash bros melee scene. by changing around these top characters, characters that have proven to work and play well and have weaknesses and strengths that balance them out, we would be undermining the whole project. without fox falco falcon etc in their forms from melee, we wouldn't have anything to base our balancing methods off of, we wouldn't have anything to compare them to. brawl falco may have had a bunch of stuff given to him in brawl, but it was much too alien, and falco's playstyle, if not presence was so integral to melee. granted we could start over again, but those characters provide enjoyable experiences that have stood the test of time, and have thus become staples of the smash bros melee genre.

Yeah, well said.

For anyone that's worried we'll just be watching the same matchups again, some of our melee pro testers are beginning to pick up new secondaries, and I don't think it'll be long before everyone has a fresh new secondary / tertiary.

Not only because the rebalanced characters and newcomers are fun, but because they'll also offer an edge competitively as people work to figure out new matchups.

 

[stingers]

Diddy is closer to falco then fox lol.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I don't want anyone to think I'm against the project or anything, I just enjoy a good debate and like to play the devil's advocate, and represent a perspective of a guy who maybe doesn't post on the forums but might end up playing the game some day and going "hey, why is X?" without getting a "because it is" sort of answer.

Nothing is worse than an echo chamber when talking about anything philosophical or design-related.

 

[V-K]

You guys are like Blizzard, release it ****IT!

 

[Sinji]

I couldn't find a Diddy Kong vid from Project M. Im guess you can glide toss back and fourth so your enemy cant escape. Can someone give me a vid please. Im dieing to see one.

 

[GHNeko]

I don't want anyone to think I'm against the project or anything, I just enjoy a good debate and like to play the devil's advocate, and represent a perspective of a guy who maybe doesn't post on the forums but might end up playing the game some day and going "hey, why is X?" without getting a "because it is" sort of answer.

Nothing is worse than an echo chamber when talking about anything philosophical or design-related.

>implying he can get a valid and intellectual debate about the intricacies of designing P:M out of the regular serious posters of this thread.


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gl to you man

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

Put another way, if randomization is a sin in competitive games and Brawl/Melee have randomization, maybe they aren't supposed to be competitive. If you play it competitively, you have to accept the wrongs.

Heh... in the case of this project, why accept what can just be eliminated?

think of falco/fox/falcon/etc in smash as the ryu/ken/chunli of street fighter. for dozens of installments of street fighter those characters (among others) have developed a formula and playstyle which became the canon of their games. how can you imagine ken without his hadouken, sure they added new things overtime, but their base gameplay was still there. sf4 even preserved some of the subtle glitches (kara grabbing i believe was the name) which gave those characters that edge. they could have went ahead and reimagined the characters, but since they knew they filled their own niches and became so iconic, they went with not tampering them

This is true of Capcom and their iconic characters to some extent, however they did tamper with them in terms of how they played in significant ways (especially Chun-Li that went back and forth between being a charge and a command character through SF history, which had more implications than what one would expect). But if you look at what SNK did with their characters who are just as iconic you'll find that those evolved a lot, as they weren't afraid of overhauling their characters with each iteration (Kyo losing his projectile and getting rekkas etc). Nonetheless, that wasn't something that hurt the popularity of these characters in the long run, so I think both approaches are valid.

 

[shanus]

You guys are like Blizzard, release it DAMMIT!

starcraft 2 = love

starcraft 2 = blizzard

blizzard = PMBR


PMBR = Love?

 

[chaoticyeshua]

The man proved they are awesome using math.

Prove him wrong now. You can't. Iron logic.

 

[Plum]

I couldn't find a Diddy Kong vid from Project M. Im guess you can glide toss back and fourth so your enemy cant escape. Can someone give me a vid please. Im dieing to see one.

Diddy's bananas are techable right now.
The frame window for being able to tech them is currently messed up (there's a 30 frame window right now... and more important things to get to before fixing that), but they are still a nice improvement to Meleeify bananas. It also looks pretty natural on the plus.
If Diddy wants to chain bananas together he has to be able to read his opponent continuously. Same goes for the automatic banana combos he had in vBrawl.

 

[Archangel]

I would say Brawl+ failed because it was too much like Brawl, not necessarily because it wasn't close enough to Melee. I think a third game can work. The B+ backroom never had the intention of taking it in a new direction like that.

If they wanted a game that lacked the tech barriers from Melee but kept the competitive depth, they would have had to add new techniques that have not been seen in Smash, and that was clearly outside their comfort zone.

to the contrary Brawl+ Stated their intentions were in fact to make what was essentially SSB4. That is what was stated at least but I wasn't in the BR so I don't know what they were truly up to. In fact some of those working on this very project stated personally how they didn't want to go in Melee's direction. They thought they could make a game as good as Melee but as easy as brawl.

In order to do that they would've in fact had to create some kinds of new **** but since that was impossible Brawl+ as an end result just seemed like Melee from 2001's metagame with a few different mechanics. Last time I played it was around December-ish of last year. It was overall decent as a smash game and had some fun stuff. What it lacks is staying power and replay value.

That what it comes down to in the long run. If the game isn't good enough for you to want to play it just as much tomorrow as you do today then it's not good. Say what you want about Melee but it's proven its staying power. During a time when Video games as a whole have gone through drastic changes over the past decade Somehow it's still managed to keep it's replay value and in some ways is more popular now then ever. something about the game just doesn't get old to me(and thousands of others) even though I've seen it many times. Somehow seeing/doing C.Falcon's Uair>Uair>Uair>Knee's or dropzone knee's I still end up jumping out of my seat and saying"ooooooooh!!!!!!!!!! Where you at!".

Thats what it's about. If Project Melee doesn't have that certain effect then it's doomed to fail no matter what physics are used or what characters are in. So far I'd say It won't have that problem though. Judging from the reaction it's gotten recently when Melee players have seen it up close I'd say its guaranteed to have success.

 

[Archangel]

Puff is a lot more analogous to MK in brawl.

Diddy is Fox.

Snake is Falco.

After Apex I think

Olimar is Pikachu

double posted...sorry

 

[AMKalmar]

Spam Arrows your sig makes this window lag for me.

 

[Deleted member]

What the hell is with people equating a cloned character to playing exactly like their original counterpart?

No two characters in smash even play similarly to each other.

Falco and Fox have playstyles that vastly differ and the same goes for Pichu/Pika, Roy/Marth, Link/Y. Link, Doc/Mario, Ganon/Falcon, and Lucario/Mewtwo.

None of them play very similarly, and its ****ed foolish to think so.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

So turn off sigs in User CP.

 

[Archangel]

What the hell is with people equating a cloned character to playing exactly like their original counterpart?

No two characters in smash even play similarly to each other.

Falco and Fox have playstyles that vastly differ and the same goes for Pichu/Pika, Roy/Marth, Link/Y. Link, Doc/Mario, Ganon/Falcon, and Lucario/Mewtwo.

None of them play very similarly, and its ****ed foolish to think so.

Most people who bring up the "Clone" argument especially in relation to characters like Ganon and Falcon or Fox and Falco are not to be taken seriously.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

>implying he can get a valid and intellectual debate about the intricacies of designing P:M out of the regular serious posters of this thread.


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gl to you man

I'll take that as a compliment.

Incidentally I always wanted to be a game designer.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Urgh....


Roy doesn't play like Marth at all, the fact that he's a "clone" is a cosmetic thing, in melee his gameplay is RADICALLY different. There are plenty of ways to keep him unique while still maintaining him as a balanced character (and frankly, he wouldn't be that bad in melee without CCing, so if he got put in now, he'd wouldn't be amazing, but he wouldn't be that bad).



Also, back at ya Neko.

 

[Shell]

We have crouch canceling implemented, fyi.

 

[Gea]

What the hell is with people equating a cloned character to playing exactly like their original counterpart?

I don't think anyone really is. But if you had to choose between taking out a Brawl character or leaving out Dr. Mario, which would you choose?

I can list off of the top of my head just about every difference between Mario/Doc, and I agree that they play differently (especially if you kept Brawl Mario's moveset). However, I understand that characters like Wario and Pokemon Trainer are better slots than Doc/Pichu, even if Doc and Pichu were separate entities with unique attacks.

If anything, adding in these characters should probably be one of the last steps of the project if it's possible, and one that isn't really worth discussing too much right now.