Project M Social Thread

[MonkUnit]

Well then, I stand corrected.

 

[Revven]

Alright, cool!

So... why are you against doing that for Ganon's Utilt then?

1) Sheik's chain is an unintentional change, it's something vBrawl did, not us. As much as we would like to fix it, we can't figure it out. So it's not a change we personally made..... right now it's out of our control. I'm sure if we could fix it Magus would be the one to make the changes asap.

2) Ganondorf as has been stated before is really ****ing good without a useful Utilt. If you don't believe me just wait until the demo is out.

 

[Starscream]

I don't really want to call attention to leakers but... there is still a download link on the last page. :/

Ganon with Falcon's 64 Usmash as his Utilt would be awesome.

 

[I R MarF]

Chain is already usable as an attack with its bugged refresh rate/turbo damage lock crap that works much better with higher gravity.

Are you talking about that glitch that can dish out about 300% damage in about a second?

Yeah, that should be fixed

 

[Revven]

Are you talking about that glitch that can dish out about 300% damage in about a second?

Yeah, that should be fixed

1) Sheik's chain is an unintentional change, it's something vBrawl did, not us. As much as we would like to fix it, we can't figure it out. So it's not a change we personally made..... right now it's out of our control. I'm sure if we could fix it Magus would be the one to make the changes asap.

Not that glitch he's referring to, he's referring to how the hitboxes in general work.

 

[I R MarF]

Not that glitch he's referring to, he's referring to how the hitboxes in general work.

Oh, alright. Thanks for clarifying.

BTW, what does the topic post: "stay tuned this week for demo announcement updates!" mean in regards to the demo coming out? Is it being delayed or...?

 

[genkaku]

It wouldn't have the exclamation point or the attempt at hype if it was just a delay.
lrn2inference

 

[Cubelarooso]

Taken from the PM website:
"Code: Melee Air Dodge Function: Directional Air Dodge based on analog stick input, stationary Air Dodge when there isn't a directional input, character goes into special fall afterward. Along with the Melee Air Dodge comes the infamous Wavedashing Advanced Technique, a universal spacing tool that adds options to a player's gameplay and adds depth."

This is what I mean by turning off the casual player. Instead of posting this on the main site, a write up like this could be more enticing:

Matrix Aid Dodge: Defy space and time by stopping in mid-air! By doing this move, you also get to dodge anything your opponent throws at you. Watchout though, because after you pull this technique off, you'll run out of energy and go plumetting stragiht down! There are many unique ways to use this move to your advantage (refering to wavedashing of course).

Okay, I was with you up until now. The original is professional and not biased towards competitive play, just telling it how it is. The revision is just… annoying. If I thought the people making this game were the ones who wrote that, I'd just give up on Brawl ever getting better.


And as for Ganondorf's Utilt: While I agree that characters should have useful moves, Ganon's moveset is so good already I don't see the point in changing it, and doing so definitely shouldn't have priority over other characters. It's okay to have one loltastic move, just to add insult when you manage to pull it off.
Besides, they didn't remove its wind, did they? That already makes it a bit easier to edgeguard with, and can be used to set of mines.

It wouldn't have the exclamation point or the attempt at hype if it was just a delay

What! Its being delayed! ONOES!

 

[hotdogturtle]

I think every move should have a moment where its the best option. even rarely.

even captain falcon can punch a missed rest.

but ganons up tilt? if the wind up was cut in half it'd still be a long time... but at least it wouldn't be laughable. I'm sure some tweaking can be done to remove the garbage out of the garbage moves.

Up tilt can also punish a missed Rest. It's a better option than Warlock Punch (unless you wasted time and really need the fraction of a second faster WP). But Utilt is better at killing.

 

[Deleted member]

I always thought ganon should have had falcons 64 usmash. At least as a utilt.

This.

I've been trying to figure out why there is a general consensus against changing ****ty moves like Ganon's utilt and his warlock punch, but the only rebuttal are these feeble excuses that he won't play like his Melee self.

In this game, nobody plays like their Melee self. The Melee top tier get new ATs, and all other characters are buffed to compensate how bad they were in Melee. Before the argument of not playing like a Melee character version is made, there's already significant changes.

It makes sense not to buff a move for a top tier character. They already have the tools at their disposal to be superbly efficient, but the lower tier characters do not. Jigg's sing, Marth's down smash, and Sheik's chain don't need tweaking because those characters are already so good.

Ganon, however, is NOT good. He is mid tier at best in Melee, and with his new side-b choke in PM, i still doubt he's gonna be comparable to higher tier characters.

In a game where being similar to your Melee version makes more than 3/4 the cast non viable, why are people so reluctant to even try a change to a bad character?

 

[Revven]

Ever consider that a weakness to a character is also a move or two, drpepper? It's apart of balance, it's like saying we should make Jigglypuff's sing or her rollout more useful just because they aren't useful at all just like Ganon's Utilt and Warlock Punch aren't. What you do to one, people will ask to do to the other, just like earlier where GrimTuesday was all "Why did you buff Sheik's chain and not Ganon's Utilt?" when we didn't intentionally buff Sheik's chain, it's naturally like that. But that is just an example of what we would get, there's boundaries that need to be set.

Right now we're not going to change them. Maybe later if he proves to not be as good as we think? Sure. But changing them now? No.

Also it's way more than just Ganondorf's Side B that makes him really good.

 

[Spoon~]

If you want every characters moves to be great go play minus.

 

[Ulevo]

I think it is important for a move to have a particular niche. When Jiggs falls asleep and misses a Rest, Ganondorf is going to be resorting to either up tilt or Warlock Punch to finish her off, because those are the best options. It may be a situational circumstance, but that's okay. Most characters have those types of moves within their tool box. Meta Knight has up tilt and jab, Fox and Falco have forward air, Sheik has her chain, et cetera.

The moves don't need to be bread and butter material in order to be useful. It is when they are completely and utterly outclassed by another move that they become useless, and that almost never happens.

 

[MonkUnit]

I usually forget that utilt or WP can hit jiggly after rest. I usually just dair -> fair.

 

[Rikana]

lol wow. Awesome stuff. Everyone totally ignored the guy that posted the download link. I just lol'd at the fact that no one paid attention at all.

 

[MonkUnit]

Don't pay attention to it. The demo is just around the corner. Which is 10x better than that.

 

[leelue]

what was the link? I ignore most of them since my internets = my phone

 

[Big-Cat]

Ever consider that a weakness to a character is also a move or two, drpepper? It's apart of balance, it's like saying we should make Jigglypuff's sing or her rollout more useful just because they aren't useful at all just like Ganon's Utilt and Warlock Punch aren't. What you do to one, people will ask to do to the other, just like earlier where GrimTuesday was all "Why did you buff Sheik's chain and not Ganon's Utilt?" when we didn't intentionally buff Sheik's chain, it's naturally like that. But that is just an example of what we would get, there's boundaries that need to be set.

Right now we're not going to change them. Maybe later if he proves to not be as good as we think? Sure. But changing them now? No.

Also it's way more than just Ganondorf's Side B that makes him really good.

I understand this balance, but it doesn't excuse why a move should suck so much. At least let it have its applications outside of matchup specific situations.

Personally, I've been found of one particular idea I got from BlazBlue where Makoto's Drive attack has a timer relative to its power. At the very least, this'll allow attacks like Ganon's Utilt and Warlock Punch more viable options since he can just use the weaker ones as well.

 

[FireBall Stars]

Can someone identify the music in this video or tell me where I can find it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkBORn-DaDw

Already answered, just adding, the album's name is "Concert of the Starry Sky".

Ganondorf were already a solid character in melee, with the balance and the Flame Choke, giving Ganon a good UTilt and NeutralB would probably compromise the balance work and lean his metagame towards those moves.

He's not a character with a flawed moveset, he doesn't not need a complete overhaul in his metagame like someone as Kirby needed.

 

[Slashy]

Matrix Aid Dodge: Defy space and time by stopping in mid-air! By doing this move, you also get to dodge anything your opponent throws at you. Watchout though, because after you pull this technique off, you'll run out of energy and go plumetting stragiht down! There are many unique ways to use this move to your advantage (refering to wavedashing of course).

I actually like this description a lot, but it doesn't explain the air dodge well enough. Foremost you have to remember you're making a product for entertainment, you're not creating a new technology or advertising a service. If the purpose of the website is SOLELY to explain the project, then yes I can agree with barebones explanations, but if it is there as an extra source of hype building, then why not go for the more stylish approach.

You're making a game, not a science experiment, anything that can easily make the project more fun should be the main goal. Anyway that you can provide pleasure and explanation should be definitely preferred, which is why I feel that his explanation isn't the best.

I'm not saying Project:M isn't fun (I haven't tried it), but the reasoning that I find Brawl Minus more fun than any other Smash Mod is because the end result is focused on first rather than the technical aspects. When Brawl Plus was finished, what the end result seemed to be, (to me at least) was a decent fighter with a really well balanced roster. It wasn't fun, which is why it died, same to a certain extent with Balanced Brawl. Balanced Brawl may be more balanced than Brawl, but it certainly isn't more fun.

 

[Deleted member]

Ever consider that a weakness to a character is also a move or two, drpepper?

There's an overall consistency of strengths and weaknesses that encompasses a character's entire moveset. Marth can't kill his opponent at high percentages, Sheik's moves aren't very safe against characters at low percentages, and Fox/Falco are easy to combo and edgeguard.

Those are the cumulative results of great movesets. Even with a vast array of useful moves, the tendencies of these weaknesses to be detrimental and dictate how much of an impact upon the character there is significant.

Ganon with an improved up tilt and neutral b would still have some kind of weak point like being bad against shield pressure.

It's apart of balance, it's like saying we should make Jigglypuff's sing or her rollout more useful just because they aren't useful at all just like Ganon's Utilt and Warlock Punch aren't.

Except for the fact that Jiggly is one of the best characters in the game and Ganon is one of the mid tier characters.

What you do to one, people will ask to do to the other, just like earlier where GrimTuesday was all "Why did you buff Sheik's chain and not Ganon's Utilt?" when we didn't intentionally buff Sheik's chain, it's naturally like that. But that is just an example of what we would get, there's boundaries that need to be set.

Draw a line. Make no changes to characters who don't need them. Fox, Falco, Jiggly, Marth, and Sheik need absolutely no changes from Melee to PM. They have clear strengths and weaknesses in their metagame despite having incredibly solid movesets.

Right now we're not going to change them. Maybe later if he proves to not be as good as we think? Sure. But changing them now? No.

Sounds good.

 

[Ecks]

I don't think ganon would suck/be top tier because of a utilt, I was just suggesting it cause it looks (imo) to fit ganon more than his current utilt.

Also why the hell would anyone want an outdated leak when an up to date demo will be here in less then a month?

 

[Slashy]

I don't think ganon would suck/be top tier because of a utilt, I was just suggesting it cause it looks (imo) to fit ganon more than his current utilt.

Also why the hell would anyone want an outdated leak when an up to date demo will be here in less then a month?

Impatient? Maybe someone's favourite character is not available in the demo?

 

[GHNeko]

idk about you drpepper but im pretty sure that ganon:m is a high tier in P:M.

the very least, low of high tier lol.

but that's just my opinion. pmbr aims to balance people against the melee tiers, iirc. and ganon:m looks like he could of taken ROM 3 or Genesis 2 with Kage or Rockcrock behind him lmao

 

[Revven]

Impatient? Maybe someone's favourite character is not available in the demo?

And maybe that is because they're not ready at all for public playing and that person should respect our work and not go out of their way to be an *** and download a leak to play that character? It's not a good reason at all to play an unfinished character or even a month old leak.

 

[FireBall Stars]

Let's take a look at the current Ganondorf buffs.

Flame Choke
Is able to grab people while they're in the edge
Dark Dive Uppercut
Flame Choke can grab ledges
Minor knockback and damage changes which I believe that were done

Does Ganon really need a buffed/different Utilt and NeutralB if the main flaws of his metagame were theorically solved? You know, having a sucky Utilt and NeutralB won't stop him from being top tier.

His game really doesn't focus on juggling, it's basically spacing of really strong moves that consequently have great priority, his downsides were being too slow and having a bad recovery. If the new moves aren't to add juggling, projectiles or something that he doesn't have, it will be done to add what? Reinforce a characteristic that is already very strong in him? I believe that can't be done unless you alter another moves to adapt to the new ones, thus altering his metagame as a whole, which Flame Choke already does by giving him more options on situations that he couldn't do much before.

 

[Xinc]

He still has a bad approach.

 

[Juushichi]

Kage's fair says what's up.

Also, a speed up or something on DA would be nice. I seem to recall Brawl Ganon's being better. I could be wrong. Can you confirm this (and my suspicion of f/dtilt being faster) for me Falco400?

 

[Deleted member]

idk about you drpepper but im pretty sure that ganon:m is a high tier in P:M.

the very least, low of high tier lol.

but that's just my opinion. pmbr aims to balance people against the melee tiers, iirc. and ganon:m looks like he could of taken ROM 3 or Genesis 2 with Kage or Rockcrock behind him lmao

To Ganon's credit, flame choke definitely is amazing. At this point, the extent of Ganon's improvement is still unclear.

Nevertheless, my point is: why let Ganon be good, when he can be more than good?

He could be great with some refinement.

 

[Revven]

Kage's fair says what's up.

Also, a speed up or something on DA would be nice. I seem to recall Brawl Ganon's being better. I could be wrong. Can you confirm this (and my suspicion of f/dtilt being faster) for me Falco400?

The dash attack is Brawl's animations with Melee's hitboxes. I think there might be a subtle difference in the start up speed of the dash attack compared to Melee...

Here's another thing: Dtilt with longer reach and the same speed as Melee's Dtilt (maybe faster? Not sure) to pop people up, his Ftilt is a KO move using vBrawl's stats and you can angle it too which is fairly quick as well for edgeguarding. Those two moves alone also really help Ganondorf out.

Like I said, it's not just Side B, it just happens to enhance his game as a whole.

 

[Strong Badam]

He is great. End of discussion, tbh.

 

[GHNeko]

To Ganon's credit, flame choke definitely is amazing. At this point, the extent of Ganon's improvement is still unclear.

Nevertheless, my point is: why let Ganon be good, when he can be more than good?

He could be great with some refinement.

because if he's already reached the goal of being silly like melee top tiers, why push him past that? lol

 

[Dark Sonic]

Not necessarily a recovery buff... Brawl has already shown that giving more options for recovery doesn't increase competitive depth.

It could always be made into a useable attack though, same with Ganon's Up Tilt.

Sheik is already a top tier character in melee. We will not intentionally buff top tier characters because....if we did we'd have nobody to compare with when we're trying to balance ****.

Also, giving more recovery options may not increase competitive depth, but that's only because it makes recovering too easy. But doesn't that also imply that the character will be *gasp* better? Sheik's mediocre (not even bad really) recovery is one of her primary weaknesses in melee. Giving her a tether that can instantaneously grab the ledge the moment you unoccupied it (which you will have to to refresh your invincibility) would give her a substantially better recovery.

It is not a small buff at all. It is actually a very, very big buff.

To Ganon's credit, flame choke definitely is amazing. At this point, the extent of Ganon's improvement is still unclear.

Nevertheless, my point is: why let Ganon be good, when he can be more than good?

He could be great with some refinement.

We believe that in his current state he is ALREADY great. We want to see his new metagame develop before we start making new moves or changing how his current ones work

I don't think people understand how good side B really is. First of all, an air grab that brings the opponent to the ground? Why has nobody tried to use side B in this manner?

And lets not forget this lovely thread

Techchasing Fastfallers: An Extensive Guide

Did people forget how good Ganon is at tech chasing? (obviously not ALL of that works off of side B, but what DOES work works on EVERY CHARACTER)

Then there's things like being able to grab ledges after it, or doing Ganoncide things, or just having a grab that doesn't have horrible range.

There's also his lower angle+stronger f-tilt

And his faster, lower lag d-tilt

And his up B having the punch at the end (which makes in harder to edgeguard AND increases his actually recovery range).


So before we greatly buff a character who's already great...can't we wait a bit to see how he plays out? If we change a move so little that it's still super situational then there's little point in changing it. While if we change it enough to be useful then it's a pretty big buff to the character.

 

[GHNeko]

ur 2 sloo @ ganon discussion, dark sonic

 

[Magus420]

I feel some of these 'buffs' are being exaggerated.

-D-tilt hits just as fast as melee. It IASAs on 34 from melee's 35 at the cost of possibly slightly less range (not more range) and keeping his leg stuck out there after the hit.

-Unangled f-tilt is 40 total from melee's 29(!) in exchange for more ko power. I would easily take the great spacing tool in his melee tilt over a laggy kill move melee Ganon doesn't benefit much from imo. I'd say he's worse off with this thing yet I see it touted as a great buff from his melee self all the time.

-Those chases after side-b don't work the same on every character. Many are too thin to be hit by d-smash on no tech, and I'm pretty sure d-smash doesn't reach behind if they DI in and techroll behind unless they have a really short techroll. Side-b doesn't work for no tech since it grabs, so only down-b chase works to full effect here. The move is an overall plus for sure, but a lot of that stuff really doesn't work off of side-b. Also, none of it applies to aerial side-b as that's too laggy.

-I've found punch on up-b to be relevant during recovery on like 2-3 occasions or something since the hitbox was made a reasonable size that doesn't look stupid.

-Dash attack is the same as melee, though he can boost smash with it because the animation was sped up a bit to match melee.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Where is the demo?

 

[kaizo13]

speaking of Ganon, i've never been too fond of his Brawl up-b mostly do to the fact that it has hardly any horizontal reach. (but i'm trying to roll with it)

i guess my question is, will he be keeping that same trajectory that we all know or will he get some more horizontal reach? he seems to not be able to make it back from distances were in Melee he would have no problem with. As it is, it feels like a significant recovery nerf to me even with the added punch)

oh and also.....how he kinda shoots forward straight out of up-b.......removing or decreasing that would help with control (i've seen alot of SD's and getting stuck under stages because of it)

*secretively aimed towards Magus

 

[MK26]

ok, random but potentially awesome idea:
instead of branding p:m as p:m on other forums, create a brand-new mod called Smash All-Stars or something and call it a synthesis of 64/melee/brawl, like rikana's idea above. Then add a new section to the p:m website with Smash All-Stars related material, more colloquial descriptions, and basically pander to the casual crowd. And with every download link, include both a p:m folder and a SAS folder, and tell the casuals to just pick SAS...but, beyond cosmetic changes, have p:m and SAS be exactly the same...thus, p:m avoids the trolling and SAS is advertised on other forums but we get more players anyways, even if they dont realize p:m is the same

is there any way this might work?

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

SAS could also balance items and that stuff too, which I don't mind doing myself.

I AM NOT TOUCHING CHARACTER SPECIFIC ITEMS.

I'm almost done balancing the Pokemon.

 

[Strong Badam]

ok, random but potentially awesome idea:
instead of branding p:m as p:m on other forums, create a brand-new mod called Smash All-Stars or something and call it a synthesis of 64/melee/brawl, like rikana's idea above. Then add a new section to the p:m website with Smash All-Stars related material, more colloquial descriptions, and basically pander to the casual crowd. And with every download link, include both a p:m folder and a SAS folder, and tell the casuals to just pick SAS...but, beyond cosmetic changes, have p:m and SAS be exactly the same...thus, p:m avoids the trolling and SAS is advertised on other forums but we get more players anyways, even if they dont realize p:m is the same

is there any way this might work?

pretty sure that's not happening.
this game will be big regardless of its name.