Project M Social Thread

[Anth0ny]

As someone who's made a Project M thread on public gaming forum, what I'm going to say to you here I believe is absolutely pivotal:

Don't dwell on Brawl's faults. ESPECIALLY do not talk in terms of history of what Brawl was and wasn't, or pull quotes to that effect. This will only invite people to flame you, and sour the direction of the thread from the get go. Their experience with the game won't be yours in many cases, with Brawl or Melee.

Make an effort to appeal to the potential audience without pissing off those who wouldn't try it anyways. The core message should be: Project M is a mod for those who'd want Brawl to play like a better balanced Melee with a larger character roster. Not that Brawl wasn't this. Not that Melee was that.


Again, my thread you can find here: http://www.1up.com/boards/posts/list/52369.page

I've made some revisions to the OP since it was originally posted, granted. But in its current state, I really think it's the better the way to go. Dwell on the things that make Project M awesome currently (without Smash 'lingo' if at all possible), and not the history.

I agree. I'll probably change some of the **** I wrote to make it more positive for the Brawl side.

And MK26, thanks for the huge write up. I'll definitely use some of that

 

[Crispy4001]

MK26, that is literally the best quote that has been posted in this thread and represents everything I thought i'd like about this game.

Hopefully, the fanboys and girls on both sides of the "Melee/Brawl sucks" or whatever the hell they want to call it debate can appreciate this. Because it speaks so much truth.

For Smashboards, it's a great argument.

For NeoGAF, the dissenters will call you tourney***s for it. Doesn't matter how dumb the context is, there's too much inside knowledge needed for several of its points to resonate, and the antagonism would only fuel us vs them sentiment from both camps. Really, the goal should be the opposite, to inform in a way that can generate interest/hype to a broader audience.

If that's not the goal, there shouldn't even be discussion about making a Project M thread on a forum like that.

 

[FireBall Stars]

I see, so it's impossible to modify shieldstun* without modifying the move damage, unless done universally?

Also, respect for the cat. I love cats, would never throw a rock at one ;-;

 

[MK26]

For NeoGAF, the dissenters will call you tourney***s for it.

And that's different from our expected outcome how?

j/k, i see what you're saying
what changes would you make?
remember that this would only be a part of a larger thread, it explains very little of what project m is and turns out to be more of an apology (the other definition) for it, refuting a few of the more common arguments.

 

[Crispy4001]

what changes would you make?
remember that this would only be a part of a larger thread, it explains very little of what project m is and turns out to be more of an apology (the other definition) for it, refuting a few of the more common arguments.

Personally, I think it'd be cool to talk a little bit more about Brawl hacking and its progression to Project M instead of history of what Sakurai did with Smash.

As for the larger design decisions that guided Project M's development, this is how I put it:

Why change Brawl?
Preference. Melee and Brawl were very different games in regards to physics, controls and playstyle. Melee was a much more offensive and open-ended fighter, and it's better for it in the opinion of those making Project M. The new-to-Brawl characters are being rethought in a Melee(-esque) context. And in some cases, returning characters will incorporate elements from both games in their Project M build.

Why not just stick with Melee?
As fun as Melee was, it wasn't perfect or all that close to it. Balance was an issue (though not quite to the degree it was in Brawl). Project M's goal is to bring everyone up to the level of Melee's Sheik/Jiggs/Fox/Falco/Marth. Which will mean minor changes to some of the better characters' Melee builds and larger changes to others.

Not much more really has to be said. You guys put it in your own words if you want.

And honestly, for GAF I'd take out the small font quip I had about Brawl's balance. Maybe even take out "and open-ended." I know my audience at 1up. But GAF is so huge and opinionated that you have to prepare for anything to be taken in the wrong context.

 

[Xinc]

To the answer of the second part of the last quote: Some people want to play as Brawl characters under Melee-esque physics; Melee doesn't have as many characters as brawl, which may be a factor.

Side note: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D97BCGSCB_I
Awesome.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Seeing how the general gaming public tends to respond to Project M makes me doubt whether or not the developers took the correct route in marketing this game. Instead of blatantly coming forward and emphasizing Project M is supposed to be Melee with a larger and more balanced cast of characters, they should've taken an alternate approach. Say this:

"Introducing Super Smash Bros. All Stars (or some other name that emphasizes a conglomeration of every Smash game), a Brawl mod that brings forth the best aspects from every Smash Bros. game in the series! Taking various aspects from each installment in the franchise, Super Smash Bros. All Stars incorporates elements such as the memorable, unique, and balanced stages from the original N64 game; the faster and more fluid pace of Melee; and the highly polished character roster from Brawl; topped off with ongoing changes to character balance, all done by hardcore Smash Bros. fans, to make for the most refined and complete offering of Super Smash ever!"

Heavily sugar coated? Damn right! It's like cigarette box without the addictive cautioning. They may not know what's coming, but once they try it, they'll be hooked!

So what am I suggesting here?
1) A change in name.
2) A different approach on how the game is marketed. It should still be called Melee 2.0 within the Smash forums, but not when advertised elsewhere (i.e. the projects actual website).
3) Refrain from using Melee texture packs in promotional videos.

I'm definitely not attempting to undermine the approach the developers have taken thus far. All I know is that outside of the eagerly anticipating Smashers on this forum, the reaction to this project has been notbly negative. I want this project to be as fruitful as possible, not for it to only flourish in the realtively small confines of the Smash World Forums.

 

[Anth0ny]

MK26, the more I read your wall of text, the more I love it. I think I'm going to straight copy and paste it if that's okay with you

 

[Xinc]

Seeing how the general gaming public tends to respond to Project M makes me doubt whether or not the developers took the correct route in marketing this game. Instead of blatantly coming forward and emphasizing Project M is supposed to be Melee with a larger and more balanced cast of characters, they should've taken an alternate approach. Say this:

"Introducing Super Smash Bros. All Stars (or some other name that emphasizes a conglomeration of every Smash game), a Brawl mod that brings forth the best aspects from every Smash Bros. game in the series! Taking various aspects from each installment in the franchise, Super Smash Bros. All Stars incorporates elements such as the memorable, unique, and balanced stages from the original N64 game; the faster and more fluid pace of Melee; and the highly polished character roster from Brawl; topped off with ongoing changes to character balance, all done by hardcore Smash Bros. fans, to make for the most refined and complete offering of Super Smash ever!"

Heavily sugar coated? Damn right! It's like cigarette box without the addictive cautioning. They may not know what's coming, but once they try it, they'll be hooked!

So what am I suggesting here?
1) A change in name.
2) A different approach on how the game is marketed. It should still be called Melee 2.0 within the Smash forums, but not when advertised elsewhere (i.e. the projects actual website).
3) Refrain from using Melee texture packs in promotional videos.

I'm definitely not attempting to undermine the approach the developers have taken thus far. All I know is that outside of the eagerly anticipating Smashers on this forum, the reaction to this project has been notbly negative. I want this project to be as fruitful as possible, not for it to only flourish in the realtively small confines of the Smash World Forums.

You prove a good number of points.
1. I don't know if "Super Smash Bros." name is copyright. If that is the case, either the name will have to stay, or to avoid confusion with Metroid, another one. Melee 2.0 sounds a bit bland though.
2. Good point. To get all the graphic designers and arts people (myself included) to do perhaps boost advertisement, but idk.
3. Some people dislike Brawl textures. 50-50 is a better idea, to appease everyone.

 

[enCouRaging Bear]

I'm not sure if this is the right place for this but:
Why has sheiks chain been nerfed to where it can't grab the ledge?
I mean seeing as how some of the other chars (like falcon) got a few buffs from their melee version (his raptor boost can now grab the ledge!)
i mean wtf else are we gonna use the chain for?

 

[Sneak8288]

why would u need a chain when every move sheik has combos into fair lol.

 

[Anth0ny]

3. Some people dislike Brawl textures. 50-50 is a better idea, to appease everyone.

I definitely think it's better that we keep this on the down low. I'd definitely expect more "OMG THEY EVEN CHANGED THE GRAPHICS BACK TO MELEE?! SO UNNECESSARY THIS IS STUPID SMASHBOARDS IS STUPID" than "Brawl models suck, they should have changed it back to Melee models".

In which case I would calmly link them to the Melee vertex hacks

 

[Rhubarbo]

You prove a good number of points.
1. I don't know if "Super Smash Bros." name is copyright. If that is the case, either the name will have to stay, or to avoid confusion with Metroid, another one. Melee 2.0 sounds a bit bland though.

If legal issues can arise from including Super Smash Bros. in the project's title, how about something like "Smash All Stars: A Super Smash Bros. Brawl Mod"

 

[Xinc]

Lawl, still has the Super Smash Bros. in the name.

@Anth0ny: Possibly just state it in the FAQ, or something like that. "Texture hacks are optional!"

g2g sleep. ぼくはすぐに寝る.

 

[Cubelarooso]

1) A change in name.
2) A different approach on how the game is marketed. It should still be called Melee 2.0 within the Smash forums, but not when advertised elsewhere (i.e. the projects actual website).
3) Refrain from using Melee texture packs in promotional videos.

1) Personally, I'm a fan of Super Smash Brothers Revolution.
2) This is mostly the same as #1.
3) I think mostly Brawl textures would be best, but having Melee AND 64 interspersed would really emphasize that this is the best of all possible worlds.

 

[iLink]

I definitely think it's better that we keep this on the down low. I'd definitely expect more "OMG THEY EVEN CHANGED THE GRAPHICS BACK TO MELEE?! SO UNNECESSARY THIS IS STUPID SMASHBOARDS IS STUPID" than "Brawl models suck, they should have changed it back to Melee models".

In which case I would calmly link them to the Melee vertex hacks

I actually got a reaction like that when I showed them a video with the melee falco and stuff. Their reply was "LOL WTF THEY ARE MAKING THE GRAPHICS WORSE?!? LOLOLOL"

Which is when I had to tell them to calm down and that they were optional.

Also makes me think... Is there like a melee fox vertex but with brawl's texture?

 

[enCouRaging Bear]

why would u need a chain when every move sheik has combos into fair lol.

yeah but i thought adding recovery options would be nice without it being broken
i guess ive had a few too many deaths where i try to vanish sweet spot the ledge only to die in
the hands of any competent edge hogger

i mean as long as other characters (high tier or not) are getting minor changes from melee
i figured this would qualify
i mean did falcon really need all those improvements to his recovery options?
*in before "yes"*

 

[Sneak8288]

yeah but i thought adding recovery options would be nice without it being broken
i guess ive had a few too many deaths where i try to vanish sweet spot the ledge only to die in
the hands of any competent edge hogger

chain recovery is super broken... that would make gimping and recovery way too easy. she already has good recovery mixups

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Why exactly should we be catering the advertising towards casual players anyway?

 

[enCouRaging Bear]

just need to step my game up I suppose
although i feel as though she doesn't have very good recovery mixups at all
but now that i think about it you're definitely right about the gimping

edit: it just pisses me off that she has two utterly useless specials including transform (although they also buffed zelda but whatever) even if she is such a good character to begin with

 

[hotdogturtle]

Can someone identify the music in this video or tell me where I can find it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkBORn-DaDw

 

[Anth0ny]

Why exactly should we be catering the advertising towards casual players anyway?

more people playing=good

every competitive player is a casual at one point.

 

[kaizo13]

@enCouRaging Bear

ur right about sheik not having many recovery mixups but....has she ever needed them? (no)
her recovery is pretty safe

and the chain recovery would indeed be too good, for a top level character like sheik

 

[KingClubber]

Can someone identify the music in this video or tell me where I can find it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkBORn-DaDw

It's a remix of dream land, location =I have no idea, try OCremix. ^_^

 

[Grim Tuesday]

more people playing=good

Right, so you are saying that more people playing is worth the devs using up their precious time for when the majority of those people will have no drive to play the game competitively and will dislike the difficulty of it.

every competitive player is a casual at one point.

I have played to win in Melee ever since it was released.

 

[DarkDragoon]

Also, the entire competitive market is right here on SWF. Advertising it outside of SWF means there should be some wording and emphasis shifts in advertising to draw in casuals.

-DD

 

[Grim Tuesday]

This is what I'm saying! Why should we spend time trying to draw in casuals when only 0.1% of them will actually contribute to the community?

 

[Anth0ny]

Right, so you are saying that more people playing is worth the devs using up their precious time for when the majority of those people will have no drive to play the game competitively and will dislike the difficulty of it.

uh, since when are the devs using up their precious time for casuals?

i just want more people to play the game. more attention isn't bad

 

[Starscream]

PMBR keeps doing what their doing, Anth0ny tries to get some love for the project on GAF and no man power is being taken away from the project itself. I don't really see the problem.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I wasn't referring to Anthony, I was talking about Rhubarbo's post.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Why exactly should we be catering the advertising towards casual players anyway?

First of all, the primary target audience of Project M either already knows about the project, or will most definitely find out about it internally. A seasoned Smasher doesn't require promotional frills to find out and get excited about a project such as this. Anyhow, internal promotion, as I suggested, can stay the same.

Now why bother to appeal to the casuals you say? Because growth never hurts. Most Smashers walk a fine line between being casual and competitive. What usually bridges the gap is the stigma associated with competitive play. Should you ask a casual Smasher what they envision a competitive one to be, they would likely respond with something such as, "They're heartless, and they refuse to play games that are younger than I am (refering to Melee)." Or perhaps, "Competitive Smashers are just stubborn and do not wish to adapt to the alternative mechanics of Brawl." If these presumtions are somehow taken out of focus, I believe a decent amount of casual Smashers will take a stab at what is now called Project M. Look at the Advanced How To Play video. That did wonders for the Smash community back in the day! If a secular-competitive approach is taken for this project, one that doesn't draw a bunch of attention to the fact this is trying to be a 1.01:1 Melee replica in terms of all major game play mechanics, I'm sure the community will be much larger, and in turn stronger.

 

[kaizo13]

are the Melee FD and Y.S stages released today by KTH/GW the same versions that are going to be on the demo?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You honestly believe that a decent amount of casual players will start playing competitively because of a little advertisement change, Rhubarbo? Didn't you read the comments on Kotaku and the like? o_O

 

[TeiunBomb]

1) Personally, I'm a fan of Super Smash Brothers Revolution.

I have two suggestions for names:

1) Super Smash Bros. MX: The M in the title stands for "melee", which represents the game that the engine is modeled after, and is a nod to its Japanese title, which translates to "Great Melee Smash Brothers". The X, aside from being an oft used letter for sequels, is also an oblique reference to the third game's Japanese title, Dairantou Smash Brothers X. The mod, while being designed as Melee's spiritual successor, has a number of aspects from both Brawl and Melee, combining both into one cohesive whole, and I feel the title reflects this.

2) Super Smash Bros. Rumble: It sounds like an official title from Nintendo. That's all I got, really. :V

I personally like the former title more than the latter, but that's just me.

Can someone identify the music in this video or tell me where I can find it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkBORn-DaDw

"Gourmet Race (J.Z. Mix)" by Salvation by Fatih Records.

 

[Juushichi]

You honestly believe that a decent amount of casual players will start playing competitively because of a little advertisement change, Rhubarbo? Didn't you read the comments on Kotaku and the like? o_O

I know that the way competitive Melee players were presented was among the biggest reasons why I never bothered to join that competitive scene until just recently.

And I am a Brawl (somewhat established in the MW) and Melee (entering the scene) competitive player.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

That's why I said decent amount, of course there will be some people like yourself.

I'm just saying that it isn't worth the trouble of intentionally not using some textures, changing the title, etc...

 

[Rhubarbo]

You honestly believe that a decent amount of casual players will start playing competitively because of a little advertisement change, Rhubarbo? Didn't you read the comments on Kotaku and the like? o_O

Lol, the Kotaku comments were difficult to swallow! I believe I posted four fully fleshed, educated responses to some of the hating posts there. None of them received any sort of rebuttal. Why was the response there so harsh though? I'll tell you why; because Kotaku partially demonized the project (I'm not claiming they did so intentionally by any means) by addressing it with pejoratives such as "de-make" and comparing it to Melee. For the masses to accept Project M, it has to be fed to them in portions. If it is advertised as the pinnacle of Smashing, taking the best from every game in the franchise, more people will flock to it than if their first exposure to the project is tainted by terms such as "a generational leap backwards."

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't see any evidence to suggest that the harsh criticisms from THE MAJORITY of casual players had to do with what they saw at face value.

Obviously if the project interests them, they'll look into the project more and realize that we are copying Melee. The end result is no different, you'd just be adding a pointless middle step.

 

[Rhubarbo]

That's why I said decent amount, of course there will be some people like yourself.

I'm just saying that it isn't worth the trouble of intentionally not using some textures, changing the title, etc...

This is why I think Project M would benefit by having a PR team. I'd enthusiastically go for such an undertaking by myself if I had the necessary skills to create promotional logos and videos. If the development team wills it, I could try to assemble a PR team where each of us could fill various roles (i.e surveying other forums, making promo vids/art, lobbying other websites to feature the Project e.c.t.)

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I have no objections.