Project M Social Thread

[B.W.]

Is Mario's Down B still the fluud or has it been changed to something else or his original melee move?

Mario's got his Tornado back. And his dair is a drill kick again.

 

[Renji64]

Mario's got his Tornado back. And his dair is a drill kick again.

This is too good.

 

[Shadic]

These are the changes I like. Like you said, the changes were not drastic yet Link was buffed to play a lot smoother in Melee. Thank you.

No problem, but keep in mind that this is because Link already almost worked in Melee.

The ideal goal for characters that either sucked in Brawl or didn't exist in Melee is to push them towards behaving more like a character in Melee would, while ideally keeping some of their cool Brawl tricks. Pikachu is an Melee existing example of this, while Snake is a character that wasn't in Melee, took a rough transition that garnered some criticism at first, but ended up working well.


Mario's DownB is the tornado. We've had ideas of making a hybrid B move, but none that would actually make sense and work smoothly have really been tried.

 

[JOE!]

Just out of curiosity, what would you say "behaving like a Melee char would" entails for the character?

 

[Strong Badam]

that is far too broad and general a question to legitimately answer

 

[GP&B]

No problem, but keep in mind that this is because Link already almost worked in Melee.

Precisely (probably the third time I've posted this on the internet). Link has a working moveset. It just has minor issues in almost all parts of the moveset that have been fixed up now. That's why so little had to be changed about him as far as his Melee iteration is concerned (although I wish we could get those Melee grapples some time in the distant future...).

 

[Luxor]

1. Play brawl character
2. Play same character in melee
3. Extrapolate for brawl newcomers
4. ??
5. Profit??

 

[JOE!]

that is far too broad and general a question to legitimately answer

allright, so then why is everyone changed to "better behave in melee"? Just curious as to what the shift is exactly towards and why some chars are gettign the spotlight on their playstyles while some just get a tweak here and there.

 

[Krautrock]

allright, so then why is everyone changed to "better behave in melee"? Just curious as to what the shift is exactly towards and why some chars are gettign the spotlight on their playstyles while some just get a tweak here and there.

This should be obvious, but I'll answer anyway: the shift is towards a less campy and defensive playstyle. As has been pointed out numerous times, not every character in Melee plays all out aggressively, but the tendency towards offense is still much greater than in Brawl.

So characters that are more campy and defensive will see greater changes. Make sense?

This thread is perpetual deja vu.

 

[GP&B]

Link, Samus, Fox, Falco, and Peach in particular all offer campy play styles, but they still have powerful offensive play styles too. The thing is to never overly emphasize on campy and defensive style with any character for the most part. Almost every character should be capable of offensive and defensive play styles and not be completely cut off from one or another.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Kink-Link5]

allright, so then why is everyone changed to "better behave in melee"? Just curious as to what the shift is exactly towards and why some chars are gettign the spotlight on their playstyles while some just get a tweak here and there.

As stated [numerous] times before, because their brawl iterations didn't work in testing.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

This thread is perpetual deja vu.

That's inevitable for long runners of hot topics, especially when people are waiting for long periods of time for something to happen.

The old thread titled "Official Meta Knight Discussion" that ran through winter and Spring 2010 is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

Please don't take this post as me being impatient.

Thanks for taking your time.

Pity the Brawl devs didn't.......

The streams DO freshen things up in this thread though.

Hype:N is no longer stale and is out of the Queue so let's bring it up again soon.

 

[Deleted member]

Just be reasonable and imagine to yourself if most unchanged vBrawl characters would work in Melee very well.

Now think about if unchanged Melee chars would play well in the Brawl metagame.

There's a pattern on the Brawl tier list where more Brawl characters are on average higher up on the tier list compared to the returning Melee veterans who are on average lower on the tier list. Sakurai and the Brawl dev team took out of their own liberty the choices to accommodate the newly created characters with playstyles that better fit Brawl than Melee.

If they were created to better fit Brawl with tendencies to camp well, have strong recoveries, and other mechanics for Brawl, why would they be fitting for Melee?

 

[JOE!]

so having a good recovery and an ability to camp well doesnt belong in melee?

Just saying, while there should be a balance between offense and defense, it seems like alot of changes are just going towards the "nigh strictly offense" route, especially with how snake essentially never uses Grenades in any vid I've seen, and now this talk about nerfing ROB's ranged game due to it being "too brawl-like and campy".

Seeing as in melee it's much more rewarding to approach well, where is the harm in some characters having a good camping game or great recovery, seeing as it'd probably mean they're not as adept at going pure-offense (while still beign able to, just not as well), if this makes sense?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Why are Brawl players the only ones complaining about this project >.>

 

[MonkUnit]

Cuz melée players have an easier time adapting to PM from melée.

 

[Rikana]

Why are Brawl players the only ones complaining about this project >.>

cuz dey jelous dey dun hav letecting-dand

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Why are Brawl players the only ones complaining about this project >.>

Umbreon Mow.

Just saying.

 

[Deleted member]

Link, Samus, Fox, Falco, and Peach in particular all offer campy play styles, but they still have powerful offensive play styles too.

All good Melee characters have a moderate balance of ideal offensive and defensive playstyles. By this, I mean the top/high tier.

Samus, Link, and to an extent Peach do not have powerful offensive playstyles. Peach has to chase her opponents down and it poses a problem for her on certain levels and against certain characters. Peach however can inflict good shield pressure and quick aerials with float cancels.

so having a good recovery and an ability to camp well doesnt belong in melee?

Just saying, while there should be a balance between offense and defense, it seems like alot of changes are just going towards the "nigh strictly offense" route, especially with how snake essentially never uses Grenades in any vid I've seen, and now this talk about nerfing ROB's ranged game due to it being "too brawl-like and campy".

Seeing as in melee it's much more rewarding to approach well, where is the harm in some characters having a good camping game or great recovery, seeing as it'd probably mean they're not as adept at going pure-offense (while still beign able to, just not as well), if this makes sense?

Characters can have good recoveries and the ability to camp well in Melee and still fit in just fine. Look at Fox/Sheik for both, Falco for camping, Jiggs/Samus/Peach for good recoveries.

These qualities are fine as long as long as it does not completely dominate the balance of Melee's metagame with defense and offense being relatively balanced with a slight favor in offense.

An excess of defensive power is in poor taste for players of Melee because it upsets the general balance and style of the game.

Its a judgment call and you have to realize that Melee isn't as offensive as you think and camping is still a strong strategy in Melee.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Umbreon Mow.

Just saying.

Quiet, you.

 

[JOE!]

Why are Brawl players the only ones complaining about this project >.>

it's because it's just so "new" to people who werent around for /didnt get to play melee (the way men and peach mains play it anyways). Im not necesarily complaining as much as asking stuff I saw no real answer to anywhere (seriously, that FAQ in the op needs a huge update) and getting trolled for it....which brings out annoying tendancies in people such as complaining.


Edit @ drpepper:

Then why is camping prowess being shunned so much if it's part of who the character "is", and is viable (if not preffered) in Melee?

 

[Kink-Link5]

Then why is camping prowess being shunned so much if it's part of who the character "is", and is viable (if not preffered) in Melee?

Which character is in question here because I'm honestly confused. There is no character in Melee who can legitimately camp in the same style as anyone in Brawl does. Camping is almost never the preferred option with the very few exceptions being on the borderline counterpick/banned stages such as pokefloats, or rock stage Pokemon Stadium.

 

[JOE!]

Again, I dont know much about melee, which is why im asking you guys. Going off what Drpepper and GameDominator said, Camping seems viable but not preffered in the melee environment.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Again, I dont know much about melee, which is why im asking you guys. Going off what Drpepper and GameDominator said, Camping seems viable but not preffered in the melee environment.

It is "viable" in the sense that it works.

But it isn't "viable" in the sense that being offensive is better as every character always (except on stages that should be banned anyway).

 

[The King Of Hearts]

Why are Brawl players the only ones complaining about this project >.>

Basically this explains it perfectly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYWVQ-u1HH8&feature=grec_index

 

[JOE!]

...I allready said that, people who are new to the melee environment would have these kinds of questions, especially regarding things they had experience with that are being changed XD

 

[Deleted member]

@ JOE!

Camping doesn't dictate Melee's metagame in the same way it does in Brawl.

You'll camp an entire match and time somebody out in Brawl just to win a friendly.

In a Melee play you'll camp for only a moment to find an opening to attack the other character. You may camp when you get a stock lead so as to force an approach from the other player. You'll camp the stage for a favorable position. You'll camp the ledge to bait a grab and an edge guard to your opponent.

You won't camp to win a match and matches generally can't be won easily by camping on neutrals. Its frowned upon to extensively camp the opponent and take them to a goofy stage like RC, KJ64, or Pokefloats and time out, but in vBrawl its the norm.

Also, if your opponent is camping you in Melee on a neutral, you have stronger options than vBrawl would allow to mitigate and punish their camping. In Brawl, camping is the stronger option against camping because approaching is more difficult than it is in Melee.

Camping is done differently in Melee.

Its presence in the metagame is in shorter periods when players are gauging responses, testing, and studying eachother, securing and pressuring the other with a stock lead, and other various reasons.

You don't seem to understand this. Watch very high level Melee tourney play. Study the 1st 30 seconds and note the differences from the rest of the match.

 

[GP&B]

I was thinking of elaborating on Melee camping but that was easily better than anything I would've thought of, honestly.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Again, I dont know much about melee, which is why im asking you guys. Going off what Drpepper and GameDominator said, Camping seems viable but not preffered in the melee environment.

Camping in Melee follows a much stricter style than Brawl's (With the only character having the same camping style being Shiek), and is usually stage and matchup dependent, such as Samus's missile camping on Stadium, which is comprised of very fast SH Super missiles and platform drop super missiles that need a lot of precision, as opposed to the /very general/ brawl camping that focuses on continuing to stay far from the opponent while throwing out projectiles from the air, shield camping, or planking/air planking.

Mewtwo is a very defensive character in Melee and has all the makes of a Brawl character- slow movement, safe tilts, good recovery, bad at killing, slow fall, and a slew of exclusive AT's that make him unique. The problem with Mewtwo was the culmination of all these things, coupled with some bad moves in general, made his best playstyle (Defensive, lots of short combos and running away), not very good in Melee.

Let's look at a Brawl example. Lucario's aura sphere is to my knowledge unchanged from Brawl and in theory /could/ be used the same way in project M, but you'd find that trying to camp with the move as he does in Brawl is very very very difficult in a Melee environment. Thus he has to change his game up and not use the move in the same way, despite it being unchanged.

We can extend this from just brawl camping to a much more meta level and look at many brawl characters' styles in general. The reason brawl characters are being worked on and tweeked further now than earlier in the project was because the initial steps were to bring melee characters back to melee standards. It was stated brawl characters would be experimented with and changed as they needed to to play effectively in the melee environment, and it just happens that Brawlcario's moveset, playstyle, and physics did NOT work in this environment. This is why his aura has thus been changed, his physics were brought closer to a Melee standard (as mentioned he is still relatively slow of a faller by Melee standards), and why his moveset has been played around with in the build.

This is why the game is closed alpha in the first place.

 

[Deleted member]

edit: wtf crashboards

 

[genkaku]

This argument can pretty much be summed up like this:

Peach dittos. You can do them, but they suck.
Falcon dittos. A crapload of fun.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Laconic version:

Brawl characters are being brought to a Melee standard because their Brawl incarnations would be terrible in a Melee environment.

 

[JOE!]

well, except MK cus he's just a bucket of Lols

(really, imagine if he still had the vBrawl nado in melee physics...)

But I see the reasoning now.

 

[Starscream]

This 10this. I can live with brawl's intro, no need for a combo video while starting the game. The HTP video could be edited to show advance techs and all that stuff(if it's possible), and it should be great

Completely agree. Do people want this to look like a fan game when it's released? Full of ****ty techno and rap? Does nobody have the desire for P:M to look like the Brawl we all wanted back in March of '08? The music in the original opening is fine and pretty epic. Of all the things Brawl got wrong it's soundtrack is definitely not one of them.

I say we take Brawl's original opening, keep all the pre-rendered scenes from SSE as they are and replace any in game footage with P:M footage. Essentially, remove any traces of things that aren't in P:M such as footage with Bridge of Eldin, regular Brawl FD, Rumble Falls, Mushroomy Kingdom, etc. Not saying these stages are being cut for sure though, I'm not in the PMBR. I'm fairly sure they've all been replaced though.

Honestly, just use the orchestrated version of the Melee theme.

The first couple of seconds is pretty epic. Fade in with a few words regarding the project, and BAM, Melee theme begins!

If the intro music does get replaced then this would be the next best thing.

As for music in Advanced HTP, the first song from the original Advanced HTP is pretty awesome, Zelda themed and pumps you up to learn these techs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxSrabbcwR0

 

[Deleted member]

@ JOE!

Watch these matches. There's plenty of camping in these. Discern the difference of Melee vs Brawl camping.

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheWaffle77#p/u/3/kt7BEfVS8v8

 

[ConnorTheKid]

well of course a rainbow cruise match is going to be campy

 

[ruhtraeel]

Completely agree. Do people want this to look like a fan game when it's released? Full of ****ty techno and rap? Does nobody have the desire for P:M to look like the Brawl we all wanted back in March of '08? The music in the original opening is fine and pretty epic. Of all the things Brawl got wrong it's soundtrack is definitely not one of them.

I say we take Brawl's original opening, keep all the pre-rendered scenes from SSE as they are and replace any in game footage with P:M footage. Essentially, remove any traces of things that aren't in P:M such as footage with Bridge of Eldin, regular Brawl FD, Rumble Falls, Mushroomy Kingdom, etc. Not saying these stages are being cut for sure though, I'm not in the PMBR. I'm fairly sure they've all been replaced though.


If the intro music does get replaced then this would be the next best thing.

As for music in Advanced HTP, the first song from the original Advanced HTP is pretty awesome, Zelda themed and pumps you up to learn these techs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxSrabbcwR0

You're right. I'm going to end up replacing every single stage's music with the orchestral ones from "Smashing... Live!" anyways.

For the intro, I'd just be fine with scenes that fit the music of the orchestra, cause timing is everything.

Even and especially for HTP, screw different remixes of other games and stuff. Maybe just edit the advanced how to play length so that it fits the original or orchestrated HTP music. The nostalgia is nice anyways.

 

[Deleted member]

Maybe it's because it 6 am and I'm really ****ing tired, but, could you guys just.... just.... make a really really bad video of P:M and just... make it your promo video? I mean, I see all this awesome **** you're doing, and the ONLY thing, and I mean the ONNNNNLLLLYYYYY thing it's doing is making me think AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, I WANT THIS ****ING GAME IN MY WII RIGHT NOW A;LWEF;ALWKJEFL;AKJWE, even if it's "not perfect" or "not ready". I'm not saying that you should rush and put out a **** game, because obviously that would just suck. But could you just... just... not let us know what it is that we're waiting for?

Human beings are not designed to wait this long for things. I mean as kids, the longest we have to wait for anything is less than a year. And My birthday's in ****ing May, so between that and Christmas, I didn't have to wait to long to get **** that I wanted.

So for your next big hype video, could you just really **** it up and just make is a sack of ****? Put in something like tripping, except instead of tripping, you just die, randomly. You run, and then ARHGHGHGH, you die. The background music is just the sound of 8 pigs just ****ing each other in the ***, and the stage you play on is just a dead body, you play smash on a dead body.

So to sum up, please just get on that, I mean, I really need it.

 

[jalued]

absence makes the heart grow fonder

personally i just want this game to be so professional and complete that people dont realise it is a mod. Its looking possible

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

No it wasnt a leak the composer had it... It still just seemed a bit off to me.