Project M Social Thread

[I R MarF]

ROB isn't ready for prime time quite yet. Still working on a way to shave off some of his Brawl campiness.

IMO, ROB should get an excellent WD. That would greatly encourage aggressive play with tech chases/wavesmashing.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Yeah. It would make up for losing his awseome glide tosses with the top.

 

[stingers]

ROB could have M2 length wd. it makes sense "canonically" since he's on jets and all anyway...should be less friction...and I think it'd be really useful with ftilt lol

 

[Demon-oni]

Lol my friends hate his ftilt. They complain because i use it to beat links Z-air.

 

[B.W.]

We should just replace all of ROB's moves with him being a transformer. He should be able to become different vehicles. Screw projectiles.

Also are ICs complete yet? And if not are there ideas people are willing to discuss with them?

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

IIRC, the IC won't be touched until they can make Nana less retarted.

The ICs will be done last.

 

[B.W.]

Makes sense. Good luck with that whole not making Nana ******** thing though.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I have a lot of ideas about what to do with ICs; I don't think there's all that many things that actually need to be changed, but some fixes might be really hard to implement.

 

[Crispy4001]

Also, this would be played throughout the intro, very lightly in the beginning, so that the original clips with their original hype-inducing commentary will be the focus, but then becoming louder as it switches to the all new P: M segment, and at about 00:50 through the video would be where the P: M logo shows up alone on screen, as it seems fitting to be introduced to the name of the project when the song talks about the future and "legacy".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW9f_oC8fEs

I'd rather see Project M stick to the orchestral chorus motif (or at least orchestral). There'll be plenty of rap and such in the inevitable combo videos. But I think the intro deserves something genuinely epic. Not just rapping over Berlioz.

 

[BAD]

IIRC, the IC won't be touched until they can make Nana less retarted.

The ICs will be done last.

What do you mean by less ********? Are you guys going to give Nana the same AI as a Lv.9 CPU? If so how would that work out? Will Nana run around on her own?

 

[Knips]

I'd rather see Project M stick to the orchestral chorus motif (or at least orchestral). There'll be plenty of rap and such in the inevitable combo videos. But I think the intro deserves something genuinely epic. Not just rapping over Berlioz.

It's such a pain to find epic music that hasn't been overused to death though...

 

[Crispy4001]

It's such a pain to find epic music that hasn't been overused to death though...

I'd be down for looking. In fact, that's what I've been doing since I posted that.

 

[clowsui]

ROB isn't ready for prime time quite yet. Still working on a way to shave off some of his Brawl campiness.

i'm confused at the idea of "shaving off Brawl campiness"

i'm pretty sure the idea of ROB is similar to dhalsim. terrible up close but really good at pressuring/annoying from afar and someone who is good at limiting options and punishing based on these limitations

while melee doesn't explicitly have these kinds of characters, i think that's all the more reason to keep them because it adds to the flavor of project m as more of an evolution of melee. you can say that you're following the spirit of melee but i dunno, such a change to rob seems pretty drastic

same thing w/ wario, i don't know if i like the change to him because you guys took away from his flexibility/uniqueness through changing his dair and his bike

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

By less retarted, I mean better decision making when she is seperated and trying to get back to Popo.
Just running to him when there is someone in the way is a great way to get combo'd/KO'd.

She should be trying to grab and throw whoever's in the way or just SHFFL an aerial and so on instead of just plain running/jumping to Popo.

IIRC, Brawl gave her the tendency to wander away on her own every now and then.

 

[Knips]

I'd be down for looking. In fact, that's what I've been doing since I posted that.

Everytime I try looking for epic I inevitably end up at O Fortuna and Lux Aeterna...

 

[ValTroX]

I'd rather see Project M stick to the orchestral chorus motif (or at least orchestral). There'll be plenty of rap and such in the inevitable combo videos. But I think the intro deserves something genuinely epic. Not just rapping over Berlioz.

This 10this. I can live with brawl's intro, no need for a combo video while starting the game. The HTP video could be edited to show advance techs and all that stuff(if it's possible), and it should be great

 

[Demon-oni]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFIkyIfBF4U

weird song, but it might work.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

The HTP vid should use piano instrumentals of the themes of the HTP themes from SSB64 and Melee.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I have a lot of ideas about what to do with ICs; I don't think there's all that many things that actually need to be changed, but some fixes might be really hard to implement.

I'd love to know what you'd have changed about Ice Climbers from Melee, Fly.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

i'm confused at the idea of "shaving off Brawl campiness"

i'm pretty sure the idea of ROB is similar to dhalsim. terrible up close but really good at pressuring/annoying from afar and someone who is good at limiting options and punishing based on these limitations

while melee doesn't explicitly have these kinds of characters, i think that's all the more reason to keep them because it adds to the flavor of project m as more of an evolution of melee. you can say that you're following the spirit of melee but i dunno, such a change to rob seems pretty drastic

same thing w/ wario, i don't know if i like the change to him because you guys took away from his flexibility/uniqueness through changing his dair and his bike

He has a point.

 

[Knips]

This could maybe work if some of the 50 second intro was cut.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PHBhDyi6nA

 

[Thunderhorse+]

i'm pretty sure the idea of ROB is similar to dhalsim. terrible up close but really good at pressuring/annoying from afar and someone who is good at limiting options and punishing based on these limitations

That's not exactly how he's played in P:M, nor do I think that was the designer's choice. ROB is pretty good from a distance, but it's midscreen where he's really dangerous. He has amazing pokes with great range and seems to very much be able to keep pressure on and set up frame traps. In that regard, at the moment he plays more similarly to Peach. If you want to continue with a Street Fighter analogy, he plays more like Vega with a projectile than Dhalsim.

Just know that ROB is NOT terrible up close at all, and in fact may be better at frame traps with long pokes than he is at camping. At least that's what it's always felt like to me, who plays against a very good ROB:M on a frequent basis. Perhaps JCz can elaborate/correct me if I'm wrong?

Anyway a question to a PMBR member that's familiar with Falco. I was practicing my tech today, getting adjusted to the new shine and new CONSTANTS. Most everything works great now, but I noticed a small niggle. When you waveshine, you seem to now be able to carry the momentum of the wavedash into the second shine. It feels great and seems similar to how I've seen it in Melee videos. The problem is during the extra momentum, I can't seem to jump cancel my shine. It's not buffering a turn-around animation, I know that much namely because I don't turn around after I try to unsuccessfully jump cancel. If I delay the jump a little, I can JC just fine, but it's suboptimal for waveshine pressure, as it leaves a larger gap for the opponent to react. My question is pretty much is what how waveshining worked in Melee? If it is, than it isn't a problem. But it concerns me because I waveshine pressure alot and it could give the defender more options under pressure that didn't exist before in P:M.

And I really don't think it has anything to do with any input errors on my part either. I've been at this for at least 2 hours, one of which was dedicated solely to this phenomenon. I think I would've gotten one exactly right by now.

 

[Revven]

same thing w/ wario, i don't know if i like the change to him because you guys took away from his flexibility/uniqueness through changing his dair and his bike

He's still extremely unique, in fact, probably the most unique vBrawl character we've changed (and by that I mean he's changed in a unique way from other characters we've changed). You'll just have to wait and see as a lot of people who have played him love him and don't want anything to be changed back really.

 

[The King Of Hearts]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xP1-oquwoL8

This should be the new PM intro

No combo mess mash ups... just good solid hype

 

[ruhtraeel]

Music talk? Intro talk?

I could sort of see a bunch of random small clips of epic combos and stuff, and every other one is like a black screen with a white quote gradually growing like

"Melee was like the olympics. Brawl was like the special olympics."

"Captain Falcon is the only man on this Earth I would go gay for"

"From the lovers of Melee, comes... Project M."

Epic or funny quotes and music all to the music of a section from Lux Aeterna: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2Ma4BvMUwU

I know for the stages I'm going to add in the songs of "Smashing... Live!" and stuff like Datura Stramonium from MF DOOM.

 

[iLink]

I don't think Rob's projectiles should be changed, at least not in the sense of making them less useful for camping. There really isn't anything wrong with being able to play defensive just because the game is more geared to playing offensively. I mean just take fox or falco for example, they can be played super aggressively but can still fall back on their projectiles if they need to.

 

[B.W.]

Watching JCz play, he seems alright by himself. I'd say make a few tweaks to him but it doesn't look like he needs too drastic of a change.

Of course that's just from speculating. I know nothing of ROB or anything about Brawl at all really.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I'd love to know what you'd have changed about Ice Climbers from Melee, Fly.

The question of what I would have changed from Melee is a little different from what I would do to the P:M ICs in their current form, which is more relevant here, but I can use my answers to the first question to preface those to the second.

Here's a list of things I would have changed from Melee:

1. Give Nana a solo squall that she knows how to use when recovering on her own.
2. Make it so that Nana doesn't do anything on her own when Popo uses blizzard.
3. Change the synced version of belay when it is done on the ground, so that Popo tosses Nana at an angle around pi/4 to pi/3 and then pulls her back to him, kind of like Olimar's up-B on the ground in Brawl, but a little slower.
4. Restrict wobbling-esque infinites.

The first three changes are all things directly designed to deal with some of the ICs main problems. (1) is just to make it so that Nana can't be gimped quite as easily, which is a big problem in most of the ICs bad match-ups. (2) is to give Popo's blizzard more utility, so that you don't need to worry about Nana shooting blizzard backwards all the time; this also allows for Brawl-esque alternating blizzards, which I think would help deal with characters that can severely outspace ICs, like Marth and Ganon. (3) is so the ICs have a better way of controlling the space in front of and above them; this is really just for dealing with Peach, since it gives ICs a pretty good means of dealing with her FC approaches. I don't think this would really change other match-ups very much, which is nice, too.

Regarding (4), I think the ICs should have a really solid grab game, but infinites aren't very interesting. I think the heart of the ICs' grab game should lie in DI mix-ups like dthrow -> dair/fsmash and fsmash -> grab, where the opponent can get out and survive if he guesses correctly, but will get grabbed again or die if he doesn't. Anyways, to compensate for the lack of infinites, I'd probably do something like make the ICs' grab attack do considerably more damage. I'm not entirely sure about exactly what to do, but something like that would probably be fine.


Regarding P:M ICs, they already have a really solid blizzard and Nana just sits there waiting for an input when Popo does it, so the issue related to (2) is already solved. Brawl/P:M Nana can use up-B on her own and can thus recover on her own slightly better than she can in Melee; I think it would be better if she would use squall hammer instead, but it's not a big deal. (3) is something that I still believe should be implemented since ICs are still bad at controlling that space above of and in front of them. Again, this is mostly relevant to Peach, but other characters may also be able to approach well from that space, such as ROB.

P:M ICs have a strange grab game that I haven't explored much yet. I have a lot of ideas, some of which I'm quite sure would work, but I'd want to test them out more on my own to see how they pan out. P:M ICs do have the Brawl handoff, though, which, like wobbling, is something that I'd rather get rid of, but it might be hard to do so.

 

[GP&B]

For Link...dunno I liked his new range in Brawl. Personal thing I guess, but eh, I could live.

Don't take my word for it, but I have reason to believe that the range was left alone. It's the general hitboxes on moves like Spin Attack, Uair, Dair, Bair, Nair, UTilt, and maybe some other moves that were ported over. I made a comparison of hitboxes between Melee and Brawl a long time back in this thread and a huge majority were superior in Melee as far as frame length between first frame and last frame of the hitbox was concerned (came out sooner, ended later) and some hitboxes were pretty nice in Melee (Uair and Nair come to mind as being significantly better).

I'd rather have Shadic or camelot back me/correct me on this, but it seems reasonable to expect the range to be retained while most of the general hitbox properties were improved. Either way, P:M Link has been shown to kick lots of *** now and it's fantastic.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I agree with everything you said, Fly.

The problem I think with Nana in regards to chain-grabs, is that if you KNOW where she is going to throw (the ledge in Melee, and all the time in Brawl) you can always CG off it unless it is up throw. Which is really just kind-of boring. I mean, look at how centralized IC's are around getting to the ledge to hand-off in Melee, or chain-grabbing in Brawl.

I really think they should only be able to do throw > grab combos at low percents like every other character, but I'm not sure how that could be achieved.

 

[Crispy4001]

This could maybe work if some of the 50 second intro was cut.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PHBhDyi6nA

Hey, I like that a lot. Sounds like it'd belong in a Smash game.

 

[Anth0ny]

Honestly, just use the orchestrated version of the Melee theme.

The first couple of seconds is pretty epic. Fade in with a few words regarding the project, and BAM, Melee theme begins!

 

[GP&B]

It has many similarities to Melee's intro theme, particularly the phrases with notes rising through tenor, alto, and then soprano ranges. I do quite like it and anything like that would be welcome in my opinion.

 

[Shadic]

I'd rather have Shadic or camelot back me/correct me on this, but it seems reasonable to expect the range to be retained while most of the general hitbox properties were improved. Either way, P:M Link has been shown to kick lots of *** now and it's fantastic.

Between Melee and Brawl, whatever version move had better hitibox timing, that was kept. Same with knockback. In some cases, the move was just tweaked in general to be a bit better: Skler suggested making Ftilt the same speed as YL's in Melee, so that was done. He also wanted to raise the angle of Dsmash a bit, so it went up five degrees, and the move flows better now.

Nothing too drastic was changed for Link, just minor changes all around his moveset that prevented him from flowing smoothly in Melee. Link has been extremely well received, Kubuu's live reaction would have been perfect for a hype thread, and Momo seems to enjoy playing him a lot. The only person to complain about Link so far seem to be stingers questioning the procedure and methodology of the tweaks, and BAD wanting him to have a hammer.

 

[Crispy4001]

Honestly, just use the orchestrated version of the Melee theme.

The first couple of seconds is pretty epic. Fade in with a few words regarding the project, and BAM, Melee theme begins!

Probably for the best.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Honestly, just use the orchestrated version of the Melee theme.

The first couple of seconds is pretty epic. Fade in with a few words regarding the project, and BAM, Melee theme begins!

Winner of this page.

Now for what song to use during the HTP videos.

 

[BAD]

Between Melee and Brawl, whatever version move had better hitibox timing, that was kept. Same with knockback. In some cases, the move was just tweaked in general to be a bit better: Skler suggested making Ftilt the same speed as YL's in Melee, so that was done. He also wanted to raise the angle of Dsmash a bit, so it went up five degrees, and the move flows better now.

Nothing too drastic was changed for Link, just minor changes all around his moveset that prevented him from flowing smoothly in Melee. Link has been extremely well received, Kubuu's live reaction would have been perfect for a hype thread, and Momo seems to enjoy playing him a lot. The only person to complain about Link so far seem to be stingers questioning the procedure and methodology of the tweaks, and BAD wanting him to have a hammer.

HAMMER TIME!!!!!

These are the changes I like. Like you said, the changes were not drastic yet Link was buffed to play a lot smoother in Melee. Thank you.

 

[Anth0ny]

Winner of this page.

Now for what song to use during the HTP videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx_6-gXDVSI&feature=related

or possibly... this

Then, for how to play (advanced): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJxPo6jKQoU

 

[Renji64]

Is Mario's Down B still the fluud or has it been changed to something else or his original melee move?

 

[JOE!]

Speaking of Smashing: LIVE!, think you guys could port the music onto the various stages where applicable?