Project M Social Thread

[shanus]

Red Ryu - All the stuff you cited was stuff pertaining to brawl. I explicitly cited how lucario is currently forced to play in both B+ and project M, NOT BRAWL (brawl players always like to bring up frame advantage in this scenario, but given how shieldstun, shield endlag, landing lag, occurrences of hard vs soft landing with different physics are entirely different- any brawl analogy is 100% untranslatable). His frame advantage on shield, uthrow combo percents, etc, are completely different. I don't claim to know lucario's metagame in Brawl. But I guarantee you don't know it in B+ or Project M, because every number you cite is wrong. I can do frame data too you know, its not hard!

Please re-read my post and then post again, because I think you missed the boat entirely on the points I was making. I'm not claiming there is no defensive play in melee. But if you pick up a character like a brawl-esque lucario, wario, *unaltered* snake, you were basically forced to try and play like brawl to survive.

A point I want to reinforce from before:

We don't want you to pick up PM and to just be playing brawl. That is what justifies changing brawl characters in the OP. If we didn't change them, all you would have is melee + brawl characters who get outpaced in every form of the game. No matter what, a characters metagame will change in this environment, and a brawl metagame in melee is not what we want. The thing you don't seem to understand is our mission statement. When it clearly defines "Project M aims to capture the essence of what made Melee a truly great game in our eyes," it in no way shape or form says "We aim to change as little as possible to reflect brawl and leave brawl characters as low tiers while melee characters will be the best again."

@Stingers - You still never responded on how I attacked your character a few pages back (when I clearly did not). Quit playing victim and answer my points because it seems everyone agrees with me aside from you, Ryu, and BAD (who even conceded to my points).

 

[stingers]

OOC, is Pit one of those "brawlish" characters you think will need extensive changing?

 

[Shadic]

It's essentially the same thing as turning Ike into Marth with more KB and slightly worse frame data just so he'd be better fit to the melee environment, even though it's really not "fitting" to his character..

Care to explain in specifics, instead of just making accusations? Ike is nothing like Marth, other than being a blue haired guy with a sword.

Spoiler

Heck, Marth barely qualifies as being a guy.

 

[shanus]

if that's it's finest....are melee and 64 his worst? :trollface:


but anyways, for the subject at hand it's essentially an issue of "character".

In his game, Lucario was based around his aura mechanic, but you changed it to fit more into the melee environment.

It's essentially the same thing as turning Ike into Marth with more KB and slightly worse frame data just so he'd be better fit to the melee environment, even though it's really not "fitting" to his character.


If a bit more explanation was given into how his new aura / nasty plot / swords dance worked, im sure there wouldnt be as much fuss (that and the vids had him have no Aura GFX, which could caused alot of confusion)

I fail to see how changing aura is at all a translatable analog to making a clone.

Also- we haven't ever been satisfied with the current sword dance system. As i posted several pages ago, I rbought up the idea of using a "combo counter" to gain charges to power up his aura. This is an idea we are still toying with, and is also why lucario is far from finished.

 

[stingers]

shanus, I didn't respond to your post because you said you had to go. If you want me to respond to it now, then relink it for me. But it'd be nice if you could answer my question, too.

 

[JOE!]

Care to explain in specifics, instead of just making accusations? Ike is nothing like Marth, other than being a blue haired guy with a sword.

Spoiler

Heck, Marth barely qualifies as being a guy.

It was an eggageration, but I was essentially simplifying why the Lucario mains were upset, you essentially utterly changed how their character worked just to "make him fit into melee".

For comparison, it'd be like taking out Ike's slow moves and replacing them with Marth's just to make him more viable in the melee environment, even though he shouldnt be like that as a Character.

Im sure if you just explained how the "new aura" worked, and said that he had the same hitboxes (lack of GFX is odd to see with no explanation), there wouldnt be the controversy over "holy crap he was changed so much!"

 

[Revven]

It was an eggageration, but I was essentially simplifying why the Lucario mains were upset, you essentially utterly changed how their character worked just to "make him fit into melee".

Maybe because vBrawl Lucario doesn't actually fit into the environment as we've stated numerous times?

For comparison, it'd be like taking out Ike's slow moves and replacing them with Marth's just to make him more viable in the melee environment, even though he shouldnt be like that as a Character.

That's not even a good comparison at all, that's an extreme comparison. That is essentially the same argument a guy was making for Ganondorf and Ike being the same, being clones. It's on that level of extremity. Lucario is still Lucario with the changes made.

Im sure if you just explained how the "new aura" worked, and said that he had the same hitboxes (lack of GFX is odd to see with no explanation), there wouldnt be the controversy over "holy crap he was changed so much!"

You want to know why GFX isn't there? Because he hasn't charged his swords dance. If you see the player get a full charge swords dance you will see his hands get aura. The moves themselves still have their old aura GFX (case in point: Fsmash), the hitboxes are the same sizes, the only things changed were animation which does not in any way affect the hitboxes.

 

[Dark Sonic]

OOC, is Pit one of those "brawlish" characters you think will need extensive changing?

Define "extensive."

Physics will be tweaked of course, as well as the angles and knockbacks of various moves. Shell is experimenting with making gliding a much better approach option for him. Coupled with the "can do any aerial out of a glide" code, Pit may very well play vastly differently from his brawl counterpart (though I suppose you can simply choose not to use the new options <_<)

I don't personally know enough about Pit's brawl meta game to comment on the extent to which he differs, but I'd assume he's very different and more well rounded when it comes to offense and defense, mostly in the form of a stronger approach and a weaker defensive game (shieldstun, hitstun, yadda yadda)

 

[stingers]

I'd say an extensive change would involve new animations or large hitbox changes (which generally go together). Or major physics changes (making a floaty character a fast faller for example).

 

[B.W.]

On the subject of charging aura why not take away its cancel and make it similar to Order-Sol from Guilty Gear XXAC. Order-Sol had a meter he had to charge to make his moves stronger. It went up three levels (could do it as many times as needed here). He has two different ways to charge it.

One way is to use a move where he goes into a charge up state. He can't move at all or cancel the move but if you pressed a certain button he'd make a burst that would knock the opponent back. The burst could be baited though and it's punishable if done too early. The burst doesn't take up any charge or do damage at all.

The second way is if O-Sol does a special attack then presses a button. He then stops for a second and a flash comes and he gains one section in his charge meter. He can be punished out of his stop too.

Also what if when you charged aura (assuming it stays) it changed colors so you could see what level it's at easier. Go from the rainbow or something with purple being the lowest and red being the highest. It just seems like a better indicator.

All of these are just ideas and suggestions of course, take them or leave them.

 

[Dark Sonic]

In that case, no the main set Pit hasn't undergone extensive changes.

The experimental set has a few new animations. Nair has one less hit, and dair is getting a spike hitbox in addition to the pop-up one. Side B has been replaced by an instant glide mechanic that's still being refined (it's VERY good). With instant gliding (and a full speed glide at that) as a recovery possibility, up B is going to be changed as well. His physics don't exactly make him a fast faller, but he is less floaty than brawl+ Pit.


Remember that everything that I just listed is experimental. Things that don't work in practice do get reverted and new ideas pop up frequently.

 

[iLink]

So does his aura go away when he dies or does it go away with time? Because if it goes away with time, that promotes camping Lucario until his boosts go away with time. If it is by stock, then it would fit his style a bit more as his brawl counter part in ways.

In a sense I guess it could, but it also gives you insentive to actually go in and attack because in vBrawl, you can't always rush in when your aura is strong because you risk your stock, this way you can go in strong without always having your stock on the line.

I wouldn't have as much of a problem if it weren't the fact that it was attached to his "lore" As he comes closer to death his aura gets stronger to protect him, I really want to keep consistency and making a system that fit him perfectly. Getting beat up to get stronger is what he is about.

I partially disagree. As I stated earlier, this "lore" only came about when sakurai thought it was clever when he made Lucario. It does play a big role in matchups but his whole gameplay doesn't revolve around it.

Actually you can control it. Most people just don't learn how to do it.

Already covered that in an earlier post

If I can kill people under 100% in Brawl with it, just think of what could happen in Melee where people die much sooner.

I have yet to see a DT kill under 100%, and I'm one of the few Lucarios that promotes the use of DT.

My issue is the fact people don't seem to understand how the character worked, and seem to think he was nothing but camp and run away. His fair in Brawl, doubt it will be in Project M either, was not the most disjointed move but being a 4 frame with very short cool down and transcendent priority made up for it. Generally his approaching invovled spaced tilts/jabs, fair/rising nair, or grabs/pivot grabs. His has approach options, granted he has some issues with shield and having poor grab range outside of his pivot grab doesn't help him.

I assure you I know how Lucario works quite well, and I can honestly say I think Lucario would be a lot more of a solid and consistent character if his aura always stayed at a constant 70 or 80 percent.

The fact you brought up Aura Sphere camping proved even more people don't know this character, camping aura sphere never works. It stops working when people start using the shield button to slow moving projectiles, they are very very good at punishing in the air, landing and used as a mix-up, 26% is nothing to laugh at with max aura. It can be used fired as smaller ones as a means to do slight pressure, but with a -10 on block the pressure they give is very minimal.

Agreed. Aurasphere is basically for punishing and slight pressure but aside from that its just too slow to actually camp with effectively. Although aurasphere charge does make people hesitant to go towards you.

Never ending Uthrow CG only works on 4 characters, at specific % with aura, 38% when under 4oish%, 25 from 40% to around 140%, all of which are fast fallers. Dair is good to cover from below, but baiting it and hitting him from the sides is a lot easy, not to mention if he doesn't SH it he is more vulnerable after using it.

I think they were referring to the uthrow CG in B+/P:M where everyone falls faster. If not then yeah Lucario can hardly CG with uthrow in vBrawl.

Really all of this is coming off to me as people who don't understand him or did much research outside of theory craft and when Lee played him in Brawl+, M, etc. Thinks like his Uthrow CG I don't expect people to know, it's only on 4 characters and not widely talked about, things like camping Aura Sphere not being effective I would expect people to know.

I can assure you I know Lucario well and will correct any misconceptions.

It's another persevered notion that defensive play wasn't a part of Melee when it quite in fact was. Peach has issues when Fox and Falco camp her with lasers and force her to approach, in melee. Heck, Peach herself isn't what I would call an aggressive character, she can approach and has the options to, but watching platform camp for Dsmashs, or float in safety to avoid being hit. Yeah she has combos and is good at edge guarding, but to say she didn't have her fair share of campy or defensive play style is foolhardy. Fox is versatile enough where players can play him in different ways. Like he can be aggressive he can also run away and camp lasers if he really wanted to.

Lucario can still play pretty defensively in p:m, he just now has incentive to actually go in and attack.

This project outlined a goal to balance defensive and aggressive play with aggressive having a slight edge, I haven't seen much to really define the defensive aspects as everyone only focus is how they can be aggressive and combo. I really see this as failing to follow the original outlined goals since while people say they wanted a balance with aggro slightly winning, I see nothing wrong with some characters being more defensive that others, not everyone is Fox, Falcon, Sheik, etc. There are characters like Peach, Jigglypuff, Zelda, etc. who play more defensively than others do and aren't rush down.

Honestly Lucario still plays the same, his moveset is still the same and allows for the same defensive play. As I said earlier, they just give him the incentive to actually go in an attack.


No disrespect to a fellow Lucario but I honestly just think you are knocking the charge idea before even considering its full potential and how it effects Lucario in the long run.

 

[Shadic]

For comparison, it'd be like taking out Ike's slow moves and replacing them with Marth's just to make him more viable in the melee environment, even though he shouldnt be like that as a Character.

That's a terrible comparison.

Im sure if you just explained how the "new aura" worked, and said that he had the same hitboxes (lack of GFX is odd to see with no explanation), there wouldnt be the controversy over "holy crap he was changed so much!"

It hasn't been fully explained because we're still working on the exact specifics. Something that has been stated multiple times.

And as JC said, there wasn't GFX in whatever you've seen because in whatever clip you saw, they weren't charging Aura. As has been said many times, the Aura mechanic is still there, it's just based on something different - charges from Swords Dance vs. Damange and Stock.

 

[kaizo13]

interesting Pit changes DS.........can't wait to see them in action

 

[Demon-oni]

Actually , i already knew lucario could choose which side to appear from. I play random rather extensively to train the rest of my crew in brawl, and i learned the mechanics of most of the cast. I was talking more about his his double team causing him to appear directly vertical of the opponent, to stop them from jump to dodge the move altogether. At least rather than missing all the time, it would add an RPS element to it.

Anyway, how much left does the team have to deal with mechanics and physics wise? Just landing detection, DI, and some individual buffers iirc...

 

[Gust14]

Aura as in brawl would be dificult to implement in P:M cause in melee you can die from 2 combos, there's no constant trading of hits as in Brawl

But the interesting part of the Aura mechanic is that Lucario's attacks start week, and are good to combo, and in late game become stronger, and are good for killing. We need more ideas on how to make this work!

On Lucario's revamped gameplay, i think you should try to translate his vbrawl combos as close as possible. You see, Lucario was one the few, if not the only, character in brawl that had actual, non-chain, non-stall, interesting, combos...I know the changes in gravitty and all, but with some changes in trayectories it could be possible, i mean he isn't wario, you could give that to your brawl-P:M fans

Edit: let's focus on Lucario instead of brawlVSmelee nonsense or personal discucion

 

[shanus]

Aura as in brawl would be dificult to implement in P:M cause in melee you can die from 2 combos, there's no constant trading of hits as in Brawl

But the interesting part of the Aura mechanic is that Lucario's attacks start week, and are good to combo, and in late game become stronger, and good for killing, we need more ideas on how to make this work!

On Lucario's revamped gameplay, i think you should try to translate his vbrawl combos as close as possible. You see, Lucario was one the few, if not the only, character in brawl that had actual, non-chain, non-stall, interesting, combos...I know the changes in gravitty and all, but with some changes in trayectories it could be possible, i mean he isn't wario, you could give that to you brawl-P:M fans

We are definitely not trying to redefine lucarios combos - that much I can definitively say.

 

[Stevo]

I like what I hear about the change to Pit's side-b

 

[Sora-kun]

Brawl
Mario and fludd
Falco and his shine
Game and Watch and his Up B Parachute (honestly...not fair)
marth netraul B
Links gale boomerang (whirlwind...was cool)(AND IT SUCKS)
Links Bomb physics....
Bowser Side B into suicide
LINK'S SPIN
LINK'S NAIR
LINK'S BACK AIR
LINK'S TETHER RECOVERY
LINK'S GRAB RANGE
LINK'S RAPID JAB
LINK'S DOWN THROW
LINK'S FAIR

Stop *****ing. >_>

 

[iLink]

Aura as in brawl would be dificult to implement in P:M cause in melee you can die from 2 combos, there's no constant trading of hits as in Brawl

But the interesting part of the Aura mechanic is that Lucario's attacks start week, and are good to combo, and in late game become stronger, and are good for killing. We need more ideas on how to make this work!

On Lucario's revamped gameplay, i think you should try to translate his vbrawl combos as close as possible. You see, Lucario was one the few, if not the only, character in brawl that had actual, non-chain, non-stall, interesting, combos...I know the changes in gravitty and all, but with some changes in trayectories it could be possible, i mean he isn't wario, you could give that to you brawl-P:M fans

The thing about combos at low percents is they do way too little damage for the effort. A nice 4 or 5 hit combo barely nets you 20% while some characters could get that off a single attack like snake's ftilt. The strings at higher percents were always more rewarding and even with the extra knockback, could still be done. An example would be this video at about 10:50 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccMfYXEfx24

In the p:m set I played, you can still basically do the old combos but with more options to throw in now such as dash attack and a waveland/wavedash utilt or dtilt.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

For all this talk about Swords Dance, I've never seen one damn sword in the animation.

That's my problem with the Swords Dance concept .

 

[kaizo13]

wow....how many times does Shanus have to say that this ISN'T Brawl and that most (if not all) moves/combos/ect. from vBrawl would NOT work in Project M. Hence the fact that the team has to make changes to all your precious little Brawl characters.

 

[Sora-kun]

wow....how many times does Shanus have to say that this ISN'T Brawl and that most (if not all) moves/combos/ect. from vBrawl would not work in Project M. Hence the fact that the team has to make changes to all your precious little Brawl characters.

 

[iLink]

wow....how many times does Shanus have to say that this ISN'T Brawl and that most (if not all) moves/combos/ect. from vBrawl would NOT work in Project M. Hence the fact that the team has to make changes to all your precious little Brawl characters.

lolwut? Shanus just said himself that he wasn't trying to redefine his combos and I just said that they still generally work in p:m.

Also, shouldn't it be called Nasty Plot and not Sword Dance? Trivial nit picking aside.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

For all this talk about Swords Dance, I've never seen one damn sword in the animation.

That's my problem with the Swords Dance concept .

That's why it should be called the Nasty Dance, which combines the moves of Nasty plot and Swords dance.

The animation should be changed to reflect this name.

I'm sure as time goes by, we will find better options for the aura and it may change again during the balancing phase.

 

[Zef]

wasnt that suggested on stream

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I suggested that on the stream, minus the animation change.

 

[Luxor]

Lucario is pretty sick as it is.

Also, guys, the devs are making Lucario more like the Pokemon game Lucario (you know... the canon one) and less like the Brawlcario. Steel types make sense as fastfallers, the only aura move he has is Aura Sphere, and he's a fighting type that knows and abuses Close Combat. Nowhere in Pokemon does Lucario have an ability that makes him do more damage at less health. (Giving him Steadfast would be cool though. Imagine his speed going up every time he got comboed- or better yet, give him Steadfast and make his speed go up when he misses a tech, since that's kind of equivalent to flinching I guess. Would be sick).

/rambling

 

[Juushichi]

I love that someone actually remembers me calling Lucario's Down-B Nasty Dance. **** yeah.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Lucario is pretty sick as it is.

Also, guys, the devs are making Lucario more like the Pokemon game Lucario (you know... the canon one) and less like the Brawlcario. Steel types make sense as fastfallers, the only aura move he has is Aura Sphere, and he's a fighting type that knows and abuses Close Combat. Nowhere in Pokemon does Lucario have an ability that makes him do more damage at less health. (Giving him Steadfast would be cool though. Imagine his speed going up every time he got comboed- or better yet, give him Steadfast and make his speed go up when he misses a tech, since that's kind of equivalent to flinching I guess. Would be sick).

/rambling

Except for the fact that since Gen V, Lucarios don't typically run Swords Dance anymore now that they have Nasty Plot.[/Pokemon'd]

And as far as Nasty Dance goes, he doesn't even look like he's dancing. He's just standing there looking like he wants to go Super Saiyan 4 but can't. _____ Dance wouldn't be a fitting name, unless like you suggested we change the animation. As of now, we might as well call it Bulk Up.

The starting animation for Double Team looks like he's doing a dance though <_<.

 

[Chepe]

Lucario is pretty sick as it is.

Also, guys, the devs are making Lucario more like the Pokemon game Lucario (you know... the canon one) and less like the Brawlcario. Steel types make sense as fastfallers, the only aura move he has is Aura Sphere, and he's a fighting type that knows and abuses Close Combat. Nowhere in Pokemon does Lucario have an ability that makes him do more damage at less health. (Giving him Steadfast would be cool though. Imagine his speed going up every time he got comboed- or better yet, give him Steadfast and make his speed go up when he misses a tech, since that's kind of equivalent to flinching I guess. Would be sick).

/rambling

Personally, I liked calling his aura ability Reversal since that's the closest thing in canon that it can be compared to. For those who don't play Pokemon, Reversal is a move that gets stronger as the Pokemon is closer to fainting. At 1 HP, the move has devastating power.

 

[iLink]

As of now, we might as well call it Bulk Up.

I can has defense boost?

We should call his aura ability flail.

 

[Strong Badam]

focus sash + agility + reversal = lol

oh yeah, I ordered a USB Gecko, so I guess I'll fix landing detection.
trollface.gif

 

[NinjaFoxX]

taking Dants job are we...?

 

[The King Of Hearts]

Originally Posted by The King Of Hearts
Brawl
Mario and fludd
Falco and his shine
Game and Watch and his Up B Parachute (honestly...not fair)
marth netraul B
Links gale boomerang (whirlwind...was cool)(AND IT SUCKS) (yes hardcore)
Links Bomb physics....
Bowser Side B into suicide
LINK'S SPIN
LINK'S NAIR
LINK'S BACK AIR
LINK'S TETHER RECOVERY
LINK'S GRAB RANGE
LINK'S RAPID JAB
LINK'S DOWN THROW
LINK'S FAIR

Stop *****ing. >_>

Sora we should make a list...and compile a site on this...


I cant believe were still on the lucario thing. Seriously lucario is solid enough
You dont have to rely on gimmicks of an aura system thrown in to change a play style..
There really in truth... NO BALANCE to it. It can be abused and it can screw you over... not balance. In fact it hinders balance and admittingly just depending on an aura buff would only show that you suck at skill.
His counter there is more cons then pros.
You can change it all you want but his counter wont help. It was slow start up and slow attack and punishment was high and rewards were very low. In fact it wasnt a cool move, it was less then decent.

I know for a fact that when your participating in a fight, you would have to access what moves will be useful at here and now... now let me grab out of a bag and see if this could be used in this predicament.

When I played lucario I know the only things I could trust was Aura spheres and attacks... everything else pretty useless.

Now lucario is an "A true warrior enters the arena, with all his power at the ready"
There is no need for fear and in truth compared to the melee to brawl cast. IT ISN'T DRASTIC.

RR is the only guy I can listen to with out hearing something out of bad except "yea hes right" or "I was melee scene look at red he is my impressionable god". RR I respect ya dude but I was in the melee scene since 2003 and quit with brawl 2009 due to my career needed me. Shanus is right through and through, All characters from melee had a drastic change into brawl. It its only right to change brawl characters in the same way.

So final note
Anyone fearing this change... dont... lucario is turning out into a beautiful baby boy. Go to your local PM event and feel it. No fear... its right.

Bad... You need to evaluate what you say bro. I dont know how long you were in any tournament scene but if you were any good you would know that what im talking about truely applies.

RR I love brawl lucario but PM lucario is a right direction. Aura really cant balance out and be viable in a professional scene. Once you have the tools... like an autistic child you'll know how to use them.

Also Im done discussing this. If you want to talk to me then mention something else.

Like more PM castlevania stages and a PM playable ganindorff stage.

 

[standardtoaster]

taking Dants job are we...?

And the thing is, Strong Bad doesn't know about making wiird codes or ppc asm. Then again, neither did I when I first started.

 

[Luxor]

Except for the fact that since Gen V, Lucarios don't typically run Swords Dance anymore now that they have Nasty Plot.[/Pokemon'd]

I only played Gen V for a day or so and never actually saw a Lucario /pokejohns

I'm actually thinking that Steadfast idea would be pretty cool, though. Give him an extra gimmick as the anti-tech chase character.

 

[Deleted member]

Steel types make sense as fastfallers

Galileo disagrees.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDp1tiUsZw8&feature=related



What's being done with Lucario's side-b? It seems dumb and unnecessary for Lucario to retain.

Also what's being done with his down air as well? I don't really like momentum changing aerials and I know I'm not alone.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Galileo disagrees.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDp1tiUsZw8&feature=related

That argument could be applied to every character with differing fall speeds xD

 

[Luxor]

like double jumping makes a lot of sense IRL