Project M Social Thread

[Demon-oni]

I think the lucario mains stand point is that they don't want to sacrifice combo/tech chase opportunity to increase their damage. I think that they prefer the feel of naturally gaining power as the stock progresses until it's climax.

If that is the case though, would it be acceptable if this swords dance move is relatively fast to secure 1 charge? 5 charges max to reach the old 180% feel but the animation is damn quick. You could probably start the match with two before the opponent could do anything, provided they aren't like pit or R.O.B. This could easily let you get one charge in naturally throughout most points of the battle without having to sacrifice your pressure that you can apply once you start.

Of course, this is merely suggestion. I don't know how this would balance out in the end product. It's just that with worse recovery in general for P:M, surviving till your good ole glory percents may rarely be an option now.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Funny,

I don't recall the Ice Climbers having half of their moves from their original game.

Or Captain Falcon.

Or R.O.B.

etc...

Like X iLink X said, he has more clearly established moves being from an RPG, all his B moves are attacks from the games, plus the anime, more specifically the 8th movie, gave a better impression of his ability to fight.

I've mained Lucario forever and play him more then well and I can say that the aura hampers him more then helps him in most cases. I'm sure a lot of Lucarios would agree with me on this.

It basically hurts the player for doing well while helps those that aren't playing as well IMO.

It's both good and bad.

However after reading the BBR discussion thread on Lucario, there were things set in stone about it.

1.) Aura is not a win-win like some people thought, I agree with this.
2.) It's not overpowered, rather it's more balanced when you think about what happens when he loses a stock,
3.) It hurts him when he is winning.
4,) People forget it also affect his sheild stun, which makes his moves become safer and safer on block.

If someone said he would do better without it, I doubt it. I think he get far more pros than cons, but at the same time it's balanced and not over the top.

I think the waiting aspect is what we want to change.

I.e. Lucario at low percents shouldn't feel excessively weak, and Lucario at high percents shouldnt be so good in comparison that you try to stay alive at all costs instead of attacking.

Weak Lucario? Doesn't wanna rush in.
Strong Lucario? Doesn't wanna rush in.

To some aspect its spacing, to some aspect its camping.
The goal is to give lucario a "I get away, then I charge, and THEN I GET IN THERE" aspect to him.
You shouldnt have to miraculously live to high % in order to be strong.

This isn't a good comparison.

Lucario has to get in against most characters because he can't force them to approach, Aura sphere will not force anyone to approach who knows how to power shield. Lucario isn't about rushing in either he's about a mix, going offensive but not to the point where it's risky for him. Really trying to live long is partly what he is about, combined with the increase in shield stun which helps him even more at high %.

Given how aggressive play is better in Melee, you'll give more incentive to approach and make punishing him for being too passive.

Ryu, what traits, in your eyes, constitute the core, most 'sacred' aspects of Lucario? Anything you want to elaborate on beyond him being a passive aggressive character with disjointed attacks? We have been continuously revising Lucario and will try to keep your feedback in mind.

Aura is the main thing I think is sacred to him. It's something of a character specific trait that he has. It lets him perform the strings, and combos at low percent. He is does have a lot to do with reaction and reads, this is how is move set is set-up in ways.

Fsmash kills people a lot yet it's really slow on start-up, fast cool down though. Why does this hit people so much? Reads and reaction, I trick I learned from some of the Lucario's who are better than me, much better than me, was using his move set to get the right reactions, jab jab grab works, the counter to this is the spot dodge, which jab jab Fsmash will hit them if they do this, Fsmash comes out right when their invincibility from a spot dodge runs out. The fact his aura lingers is a big part of this, when they lose invincibility they come back to a hitbox, same can be applied to air dodges.

If you jab, you must read your opponents DI. Jab jab grab if they don't DI or stay close, finish the jab combo if they DI away, or in some cases you can throw in a Dtilt or something if you think they will react a certain way.

Lets say if Mk tries to dash attack, pivot grab him or Ftilt will shut this down.

If the opponent is hiding in their shield, do a fair on it, but fall behind them and Force palm, he has an AT which lets him grab with force palm if he is within 9 frames of landing.

These are more situations, but is elaborates on how important it is, with aura in the mix to make his damage output huge it makes the reads more rewarding.

He has answers, even if his answers for shields are more limited, a lot of what he should do depends on his opponent. It seems like this is a fundamental of smash itself with reads, reaction and spacing, but it really is what he's about and aiming for with his move set and aura.

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Around 3:20 shows what his Aura and moveset can do when he goes on the offense, he's not trying to run away all the time to keep it like people think. Like aiming for times outs isn't going to work with him unless you two players who are way to defensive and patient against each other.

You can make him offensive even with aura in the mix, it is an incentive for defense, but it's also one for offense as well.

 

[Rikana]

LMAOOOO. Wtf happened within a few hours?

Guise, PM was a joke all along. Wait until April 1st to confirm.

April Fools confirmed for PM.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Made him less Floaty, which helped him combo in Brawl btw.

Everyone is less floaty.

Turned his roll from the best in Brawl to terrible in ProjectM, he was joked as Rollcario for a reason.

Everyone's rolls are worse. If melee characters have to deal with bad rolls, brawl characters do too.

Some of his combos at low % were completely removed in favor of whatever people wanted him to to, apparently jab cancelled, Dtilt to Uair works in ProjectM. His previous legit combos could have been translated into ProjectM easily like how the combos of Melee were for Melee characters.

No they could not. Lucario's combos don't work on melee characters because melee characters fall faster. The faster fall speed means that the moves don't have the vertical launching power needed to keep them in the combo at lower percents, and at medium percents they have too much horizontal launching power. And there is very little that can be done about this without either

1. Giving the moves in question (mostly fair and nair are what I'm referring to) a much, much higher angle (which would drastically reduce their effectiveness for anything other than strictly comboing)
or
2. Making the moves absurdly fast.

Think of why top tier characters' combos work. They either involve moves that send mostly vertically (Marth's tipped fairs, Falco's shine and dair on grounded opponents, various uptilts, ect, ect) or the characters themselves do the entire combo low to the ground after starting the combo with a "launcher" (a mostly vertical sending move) and are zooming horizontally to keep up with the knockback of their moves. Now ask yourself. How do Lucario's combos fit this mold? (which is the ONLY way to get combos in such a high gravity environment)

At least that is my guess on that. For this, I don't see a purpose to override and change some characters move sets that drastically. Melee got to keep it's similarities why can't some Brawl characters keep some of their, even more so with Aura which defines a lot of Lucario.

Melee characters didn't get to keep most of it's similarities in gameplay from melee to brawl though. They only kept their aesthetics. So what exactly is unfair about changing a brawl character's gameplay from brawl to project M?

Because with smash history, character didn't get revisions to the point where traits and such were completely changed.

Oh really? Last I checked 64 Fox was COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from Melee Fox.

Fox has been a fast faller, Kirby has stayed light, Fox is a fast character, someone like Bowser is a slow character.

Fox is only a fast faller in brawl when compared to the rest of the cast of brawl. Just as Lucario is still an average speed faller when compared to the cast of melee.

Lucario was made a lot heavier

Lucario was not made heavier. He was made to have an average fall speed among the melee cast, just like he had an average fall speed in brawl.

had his aura removed, and lost one of his best traits his godly roll. I could understand the roll being nerfed a bit, but they made it close to garbage. Much shorter distance with a lot more lag on it.

Melee characters got by with much worse rolls than the one Lucario has currently.

I want my main to stay consistent with in a series, wouldn't you find it weird if Fox was suddenly not a fast faller like he has been for the past three games, started carrying an axe, and was slow?

64 to melee

Lasers did not keep their 64 stun status in melee. Shine became jump cancelable and not land cancelable. Fair became a multitude move. Uptilt hit behind him instead of in front of him. These are just the more drastic fox changes (there are tons of stat changes on each move)

Melee to brawl
Fair boosted vertical momentum. Bair lost it's sex kick status. D-throw no longer set up for tech chases. Shine is no longer jump cancelable. Fox became floaty

And that's supposed to be less weird than removing aura?

Changing is aura is a large change to his fundamentals, it is a large part of remembering what works when and what doesn't.

And by changing the system in the way you describe (lowering the cap) you'd still have to relearn that entire system.

A lot his game was also remembering when you should use what, and why, these were all key to the character and gave him depth in a lot of match-ups.

And you think that move choice won't be important even without aura?

The core problem is that in melee you'll have far less control of the mechanic. In brawl in a lot of matchups you sort of apply small amounts of pressure and trade hits, gradually building damage. Then the effect of aura kicks in and you become a much better character, gaining combo potential to lead to high damage output. Inevitably, you take a little more damage while beating up the opponent, and your aura then assists you in killing them.

However, in melee the damage gain isn't nearly as gradual. You take damage in chunks from combos that start at early percents and end at late percents. Then you trade hits a little bit while in the 80%-100% range, until someone lands a setup into an edge guard or a kill move. Not only that, but Lucario is already able to combo in P:M from the getgo. Brawl combos don't work because of melee gravity, but plenty of new combos work fine without aura. And gaining aura doesn't significantly assist these combos, as the slight increase in knockback on his combo moves adds a negligible amount of stun.

Shieldstun is also higher in P:M than in brawl and L-canceling further reduces the disadvantage of blocked aerials. Unless the increase in shieldstun from aura is quite drastic (please inform me if it is), then it won't be making much of a difference.

So in project M, the aura only really helps his kill power and not his damage output, due to the nature of the game itself. So not only do you have very little control of what aura you have, it also doesn't help that much?


Surely you're not forgetting that Lucario will be put in the melee engine right? Please think of the effects that has on his character.

Also it would lessen his usefulness in teams where his aura works on every other player in a doubles match.

That is true and it's unfortunate.

That is my issue, this is a much larger part of him than people think it is.

Yes it is a large part of his brawl game. However, it just doesn't translate well to his melee game.

 

[Plum]

Personally I can see Aura working in Melee.
To be honest, it's not like we ever really gave aura a chance. Basically the moment somebody started work on Lucario it was scrapped, and deemed "not Melee."

I think some of the reasoning for just dropping the system is just laziness.
Rather than balancing the system which I would assume would take TONS of time, as well as requiring somebody to dig through the game to find how it works in the first place, and then his moveset has to be balanced around the changes to the aura system as well. For the sake of getting a polished character in a more realistic time frame, something like aura could be sacrificed for a different system of powering up. Hence where the current experimental Swords Dance system kind of came from.
That's what I imagine some of the reasoning comes from.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I don't see aura working in melee, though I guess I shouldn't have posted as if my opinion was fact (that's how I word most of my posts of course).

 

[BAD]

Dark Sonic, have you even play-tested the game to even think that your theories are true? Also about 64 Fox vs Melee Fox. Yes Fox got some changes, but that's obvious. The changes were slight, his character was not drastically changed such as his B moves. Like his Firebird didn't all of a sudden become something completely different like with P:M Lucario vs Brawl Lucario.

Removing Lucario's aura is like removing Marth's sword. I don't understand why you are even trying to argue that it isn't an important aspect of Lucario. Have you played Brawl competitively? Did you even play Lucario at a deep level?

 

[Darkshooter]

 

[Dark Sonic]

No, I no longer play brawl competitively.

I play melee competitively, and have for 4 years.

Yes, I playtest the game.

No, the playstyle changes between iterations of characters in each smash game are not "slight."


And it's not hard to conclude that in a game where the average death is between 90% and 120% against one of the most popular characters, and where racking 60% damage in under 20 seconds is common, that a system of gaining power from taking damage would not be manageable.

 

[jahkzheng]

Lucario still has his aura in PM... it's just self activated through a few downBs.
You like and want to keep the need for damage taking in a game where letting yourself get hit once is likely to lead into a combo that could lead to your death? And if its something to do with how the game is played when taking damage is required, then what if counters increased your damage? It would still require you to get "hit", so that aspect could be somewhat taken care of. Is this a something you'd approve of more? Since it's highly unlikely that brawl's aura system is going to be as good as it was in brawl, in PM... and it wasn't great in brawl.

 

[The King Of Hearts]

Bad and Red Ryu

I know the aura was a very unique system for lucario. I know when it first came out I was very excited. I main lucario in brawl and his high risk play style did suit me but it only hampered me when trying to remember what I can do to so and so character when Im at a certain percentage. I adopted my play style from azen and still think he was one of the best lucarios.

I know in pro tournaments in high level gaming you dont want to get hit. The higher damage you are... the higher chance your going to die. Now lucario is solid and is aura is still there but you dont have to depend on certain percentages to combo or kill. Lucario can combo and kill very well without worrying to charge up. His aura is still there and can be used upon the time its charged. Charging part way or full and you still have a good hit up your sleeve.

He still has the aura as a move and it still benefits him.
Can be canceled.
At any charge your powered up to a certain degree.
Conceals him as a distraction
floats a bit while in air.

Hes already a solid character but he still gets more strength when amounts are powered up. Importantly He doesn't need to depend on it and solely keep his concentration on it for situations.

I do remember the fondness of his counter (especially against pikman) :D
And It did serve as a get away for some situations but in high level fighting... situational doesn't cut it.
If you can show me some high level tournament proof of lucarios counter being used more then 5 times in a fight against high level players (chu,m2k) and each time landing correctly then thats awesome and Ill be pretty happy to see that.

Another thing is the roll... yea that was a good roll.

Lucario feels pretty solid and feels like "a true warrior enters the arena all his power at the ready" then someone who needs to be at certain damage percentages to be situational.

You both are pretty cool and have good heads on top of those shoulders. It was fun looking up that sheet again.... I really wish you guys have a chance to play some time and try him out and see what you think.
Well... im going to pass out now <3
I love lucario in brawl and love him in project M :3

 

[BAD]

No, I no longer play brawl competitively.

I play melee competitively, and have for 4 years.

Yes, I playtest the game.

No, the playstyle changes between iterations of characters in each smash game are not "slight."


And it's not hard to conclude that in a game where the average death is between 90% and 120% against one of the most popular characters, and where racking 60% damage in under 20 seconds is common, that a system of gaining power from taking damage would not be manageable.

In each iteration though, the characters retained most of their moveset's and abilities. Nothing like what is happening to Wario or Lucario. As far as the damage ratio for full power. In Brawl you need to be at 178% to be at full power. This number can be adjusted in Melee since you die quicker. Like 100% could be full power in Melee.

The aura system can work, it just needs to be more researched on. I think Red Ryu should help out the P:M team with Lucario. Red Ryu knows exactly why Lucario is such a good character.

 

[Demon-oni]

@ BAD
a change to any move is never slight. Look at 64 kirby to melee kirby. His up b got nerfed and his neutral b got buffed. So why is he suddenly negligible tier? His aerial game was hurt really bad, his reasonable approach options got nerfed to being high risk/ low reward, and his grabs are escapeable mid animation. Calling the changes to fox's moveset in any of the iterations "slight" is a very ignorant remark to make.

The dev's realize that some aspects of a character may need to be changed to fit the feel of this mod. Look at R.O.B., he no longer has god like recovery. In the latest builds that i've seen, even sonic is better at it than he is. But he still looks the build of a zoning/gimp character from what i have seen. He just doesn't get a free recovery everytime he is hit off now. Lucario may look weird to you now, but chances are that he will still relatively play in the same area he does now. Just be patient. It's not like the dev's are going to intentionally make your characters gameplay boring...

 

[jahkzheng]

Bad and Red Ryu

I know the aura was a very unique system for lucario. I know when it first came out I was very excited. I main lucario in brawl and his high risk play style did suit me but it only hampered me when trying to remember what I can do to so and so character when Im at a certain percentage. I adopted my play style from azen and still think he was one of the best lucarios.

I know in pro tournaments in high level gaming you dont want to get hit. The higher damage you are... the higher chance your going to die. Now lucario is solid and is aura is still there but you dont have to depend on certain percentages to combo or kill. Lucario can combo and kill very well without worrying to charge up. His aura is still there and can be used upon the time its charged. Charging part way or full and you still have a good hit up your sleeve.

He still has the aura as a move and it still benefits him.
Can be canceled.
At any charge your powered up to a certain degree.
Conceals him as a distraction
floats a bit while in air.

Hes already a solid character but he still gets more strength when amounts are powered up. Importantly He doesn't need to depend on it and solely keep his concentration on it for situations.

I do remember the fondness of his counter (especially against pikman) :D
And It did serve as a get away for some situations but in high level fighting... situational doesn't cut it.
If you can show me some high level tournament proof of lucarios counter being used more then 5 times in a fight against high level players (chu,m2k) and each time landing correctly then thats awesome and Ill be pretty happy to see that.

Another thing is the roll... yea that was a good roll.

Lucario feels pretty solid and feels like "a true warrior enters the arena all his power at the ready" then someone who needs to be at certain damage percentages to be situational.

You both are pretty cool and have good heads on top of those shoulders. It was fun looking up that sheet again.... I really wish you guys have a chance to play some time and try him out and see what you think.
Well... im going to pass out now <3
I love lucario in brawl and love him in project M :3

Good points...

...but I mentioned a compromise for anyone that might miss counter with my counter/sword's dance idea. Charge aura and counter if someone trying to hit you out of it given correct timing.

...and for the people that aren't satisfied with the charge utility as it is... counter that increases aura in place of damage. Instead of having to take damage, anticipate a hit and counter for an aura increase. It's basically just like my other idea, but now you have to get hit for it to work. People who enjoyed teasing out little bits of damage in brawl, but don't want to get set up for a combo in PM might like this one. Plus you don't take damage that could hurt you later, you deal it back at them and increase your aura to boot.


Edit:
*(self-proclaimed) good ideas continue to get ignored* :/

 

[iLink]

From what I played of p:m it was honestly frustrating to not be able to kill whenever I had a decent lead or just generally at a low percent.

Like if me and my opponent were like 120% on our first stock and I lost my stock first, it sucked that I was basically forced to get damage on me to be able to KO him while he lived to 160%+. Another example is me having a stock lead while being in the 20-40% range and just hitting my opponent around the stage without any sort of KO power and basically having to wait until I had some damage on me before I could set him up for a KO which is lame because it just puts my stock at risk.

The boost helped in brawl because most KO's come from punishing and reading and there would be breaks between hits. In melee, there are quite a few ways to set up KO's and not being able to do so until your stock is at risk is rather annoying.

It honestly still comes down to: Hurts if for doing good, helps you for doing bad.

I'm not just some random Lucario main, I'm a pretty avid player and know exactly what Lucario can do. I'm honestly itching to try the new boost but if it doesn't end up working in the longrun, I definitely wouldn't want the aura boost to stay how it is now.

 

[Ulevo]

In each iteration though, the characters retained most of their moveset's and abilities. Nothing like what is happening to Wario or Lucario.

Wario's changes include:

- Forward Smash
- Down Smash
- Dair
- Forward Special

Brawl Ganondorf vs Melee Ganondorf changes include:

- Up Smash
- Forward Tilt
- Down Tilt
- Forward Special
- Up Special (to a lesser extent)

Brawl Falco vs Melee Falco changes include:

- Forward Smash
- Fair
- Up Tilt
- Down Special

I'd be daring enough to state the changes from transitions from 64 to Melee, but I was not an avid 64 player. They exist though. I'm seeing holes in your argument.

 

[BAD]

@ BAD
a change to any move is never slight. Look at 64 kirby to melee kirby. His up b got nerfed and his neutral b got buffed. So why is he suddenly negligible tier? His aerial game was hurt really bad, his reasonable approach options got nerfed to being high risk/ low reward, and his grabs are escapeable mid animation. Calling the changes to fox's moveset in any of the iterations "slight" is a very ignorant remark to make.

The dev's realize that some aspects of a character may need to be changed to fit the feel of this mod. Look at R.O.B., he no longer has god like recovery. In the latest builds that i've seen, even sonic is better at it than he is. But he still looks the build of a zoning/gimp character from what i have seen. He just doesn't get a free recovery everytime he is hit off now. Lucario may look weird to you now, but chances are that he will still relatively play in the same area he does now. Just be patient. It's not like the dev's are going to intentionally make your characters gameplay boring...

I understand that. The moves of each character get's buffed or nerfed each game, I get it. That explains why Jigglypuff sucks in Brawl, but is Godlike in Melee.

What I am saying though is that you shouldn't remove an important trait to a character like Lucario's aura, and replace it with something else entirely different. That DRASTICALLY changes Lucario. It's not something like his FSmash get's nerfed, it's that his entire playstyle changed. The mechanics of the character Lucario just isn't the same without his aura.

 

[jahkzheng]

Lucario still has his aura in PM... it's just self activated through a few downBs.
You like and want to keep the need for damage taking in a game where letting yourself get hit once is likely to lead into a combo that could lead to your death? And if its something to do with how the game is played when taking damage is required, then what if counters increased your damage? It would still require you to get "hit", so that aspect could be somewhat taken care of. Is this a something you'd approve of more? Since it's highly unlikely that brawl's aura system is going to be as good as it was in brawl, in PM... and it wasn't great in brawl.

I still haven't gotten an opinion on this from you Bad... or anyone...

...and I'll attach this since it clarifies and sounds better...

Good points...

...but I mentioned a compromise for anyone that might miss counter with my counter/sword's dance idea. Charge aura and counter if someone trying to hit you out of it given correct timing.

...and for the people that aren't satisfied with the charge utility as it is... counter that increases aura in place of damage. Instead of having to take damage, anticipate a hit and counter for an aura increase. It's basically just like my other idea, but now you have to get hit for it to work. People who enjoyed teasing out little bits of damage in brawl, but don't want to get set up for a combo in PM might like this one. Plus you don't take damage that could hurt you later, you deal it back at them and increase your aura to boot.

Lol, I'm pro at getting ignored.
(Re-reposting my thoughts, how desperate. I must not be forward enough with my "opinions" >.>)

 

[iLink]

I don't think it drastically changes Lucario at all. The only thing the aura boost did to change your playstyle was to make you play more defensively at higher percents, but every character generally does that its just that Lucario had more incentive to do it.

 

[The King Of Hearts]

In each iteration though, the characters retained most of their moveset's and abilities. Nothing like what is happening to Wario or Lucario. As far as the damage ratio for full power. In Brawl you need to be at 178% to be at full power. This number can be adjusted in Melee since you die quicker. Like 100% could be full power in Melee.

The aura system can work, it just needs to be more researched on. I think Red Ryu should help out the P:M team with Lucario. Red Ryu knows exactly why Lucario is such a good character.

Brawl
Mario and fludd
Falco and his shine
Game and Watch and his Up B Parachute (honestly...not fair)
marth netraul B
Links gale boomerang (whirlwind...was cool)
Links Bomb physics....
Bowser Side B into suicide


Sorry brosef but it happens to us all. We all ride the wave and get used to what comes our way. Because of what you just said... I really dont see how drastic losing aura is compared to how they lost their moves and awkward gains. I think its pretty fair for them to get costumed into melee settings and Dark Sonic gave some good advice on how it would look.

Honestly I dont see how having Red Ryu or Myself would benefit the making of lucario but I think azen would be more suited to give his comments on how lucario should be done.

Edit: after seeing RRs reply I still think azen would be good at looking at lucario :\ he was a good transition. I checked out the new lucario players and im not really to my fancy but I understand you RR.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Everyone is less floaty.

If I recall Lucario is the 5th floatiest character in Brawl, now it seems like he lost his lack of not falling fast.

Everyone's rolls are worse. If melee characters have to deal with bad rolls, brawl characters do too.

He had the best roll in the game and it seems like nothing from that before exists. I don't blame this on as much, his roll is dumb in Brawl.

No they could not. Lucario's combos don't work on melee characters because melee characters fall faster. The faster fall speed means that the moves don't have the vertical launching power needed to keep them in the combo at lower percents, and at medium percents they have too much horizontal launching power. And there is very little that can be done about this without either

1. Giving the moves in question (mostly fair and nair) a much, much higher angle (which would drastically reduce their effectiveness for anything other than strictly comboing)
or
2. Making the moves absurdly fast.

Think of why top tier characters' combos work. They either involve moves that send mostly vertically (Marth's tipped fairs, Falco's shine and dair on grounded opponents, various uptilts, ect, ect) or the characters themselves do the entire combo low to the ground after starting the combo with a "launcher" (a mostly vertical sending move) and are zooming horizontally to keep up with the knockback of their moves. Now ask yourself. How do Lucario's combos fit this mold? (which is the ONLY way to get combos in such a high gravity environment)

Fair really isn't anything more than a approach/spacing tool or combo starter for this game so for that it wouldn't change much. Nair can kill and could be a combo extender or enabler.

Melee characters didn't get to keep most of it's similarities in gameplay from melee to brawl though. They only kept their aesthetics. So what exactly is unfair about changing a brawl character's gameplay from brawl to project M?

With Lucario we are removing an anesthetic, his aura. This is unfair in my eyes since it is a core system and trait of the character, like how Kirby has five jumps or Peach can float. This directly does influence his game play, but that's how his aura works.

Oh really? Last I checked 64 Fox was COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from Melee Fox.

I don't believe it was completely different.

Fox is only a fast faller in brawl when compared to the rest of the cast of brawl. Just as Lucario is still an average speed faller when compared to the cast of melee.
Lucario was not made heavier. He was made to have an average fall speed among the melee cast, just like he had an average fall speed in brawl.

If I recall he doesn't fall that fast, he has average weight but his fall speed is a lot slower in comparison.

Melee characters got by with much worse rolls than the one Lucario has currently.

I don't get the relevance of this.

64 to melee

Lasers did not keep their 64 stun status in melee. Shine became jump cancelable and not land cancelable. Fair became a multitude move. Uptilt hit behind him instead of in front of him. These are just the more drastic fox changes (there are tons of stat changes on each move)

Melee to brawl
Fair boosted vertical momentum. Bair lost it's sex kick status. D-throw no longer set up for tech chases. Shine is no longer jump cancelable. Fox became floaty

And that's supposed to be less weird than removing aura?

One is a core trait of a character, the other are some changes in damage in moves and properties.

Also Fox may be floatier in Brawl, but he is a still quite the fast faller, otherwise Pikachu and Sheik wouldn't have the locks and CGs on him.

And by changing the system in the way you describe (lowering the cap) you'd still have to relearn that entire system.

And you think that move choice won't be important even without aura?

The core problem is that in melee you'll have far less control of the mechanic. In brawl in a lot of matchups you sort of apply small amounts of pressure and trade hits, gradually building damage. Then the effect of aura kicks in and you become a much better character, gaining combo potential to lead to high damage output. Inevitably, you take a little more damage while beating up the opponent, and your aura then assists you in killing them.

However, in melee the damage gain isn't nearly as gradual. You take damage in chunks from combos that start at early percents and end at late percents. Then you trade hits a little bit while in the 80%-100% range, until someone lands a setup into an edge guard or a kill move. Not only that, but Lucario is already able to combo in P:M from the getgo. Brawl combos don't work because of melee gravity, but plenty of new combos work fine without aura. And gaining aura doesn't significantly assist these combos, as the slight increase in knockback on his combo moves adds a negligible amount of stun.

Shieldstun is also higher in P:M than in brawl and L-canceling further reduces the disadvantage of blocked aerials. Unless the increase in shieldstun from aura is quite drastic (please inform me if it is), then it won't be making much of a difference.

So in project M, the aura only really helps his kill power and not his damage output, due to the nature of the game itself. So not only do you have very little control of what aura you have, it also doesn't help that much?

With Aura it is more important, because it's not just your opponents % it'd also your own that matters. Are you going to try and use a move that isn't safe on block at low %, or do you want to use it later when it does more damage and is safe on block., SH dair is a -3 on block at 0%, it's a 0 frame wise at 100%. Fully charged Aura sphere is a -10 on block at 0%, it's a +1 on block at 200%.

Safe moves on block means you have more options on block. Melee will assist him in this, but Aura can also add onto it with damage and knockback.

Surely you're not forgetting that Lucario will be put in the melee engine right? Please think of the effects that has on his character.

I can only see it in ways helping him in terms of the early game, and making late game possibly deadly. At the same time it can hurt him with his own Aura, but that is how the system works for him.

That is true and it's unfortunate.

It is.

Yes it is a large part of his brawl game. However, it just doesn't translate well to his melee game.

I disagree, or rather I think it's very possible if some changes were made to it.

Personally I can see Aura working in Melee.
To be honest, it's not like we ever really gave aura a chance. Basically the moment somebody started work on Lucario it was scrapped, and deemed "not Melee."

I think some of the reasoning for just dropping the system is just laziness.
Rather than balancing the system which I would assume would take TONS of time, as well as requiring somebody to dig through the game to find how it works in the first place, and then his moveset has to be balanced around the changes to the aura system as well. For the sake of getting a polished character in a more realistic time frame, something like aura could be sacrificed for a different system of powering up. Hence where the current experimental Swords Dance system kind of came from.
That's what I imagine some of the reasoning comes from.

I'm not going to lie it could get messy coding wise for him. the damage multiple might go off how the damage ratio setting in the game settings works. Shield stun I don't think is consistent with a system and is preset at a base value, there are some inconsistencies with some of his move's shield stun in relation to aura.

I can understand if it gets too messy or hard to change why a new system would be implements, I still wouldn't be happy about it but it wouldn't be a reason other than, "not melee"

Bad and Red Ryu

I know the aura was a very unique system for lucario. I know when it first came out I was very excited. I main lucario in brawl and his high risk play style did suit me but it only hampered me when trying to remember what I can do to so and so character when Im at a certain percentage. I adopted my play style from azen and still think he was one of the best lucarios.

I know in pro tournaments in high level gaming you dont want to get hit. The higher damage you are... the higher chance your going to die. Now lucario is solid and is aura is still there but you dont have to depend on certain percentages to combo or kill. Lucario can combo and kill very well without worrying to charge up. His aura is still there and can be used upon the time its charged. Charging part way or full and you still have a good hit up your sleeve.

He still has the aura as a move and it still benefits him.
Can be canceled.
At any charge your powered up to a certain degree.
Conceals him as a distraction
floats a bit while in air.

Hes already a solid character but he still gets more strength when amounts are powered up. Importantly He doesn't need to depend on it and solely keep his concentration on it for situations.

I do remember the fondness of his counter (especially against pikman) :D
And It did serve as a get away for some situations but in high level fighting... situational doesn't cut it.
If you can show me some high level tournament proof of lucarios counter being used more then 5 times in a fight against high level players (chu,m2k) and each time landing correctly then thats awesome and Ill be pretty happy to see that.

Another thing is the roll... yea that was a good roll.

Lucario feels pretty solid and feels like "a true warrior enters the arena all his power at the ready" then someone who needs to be at certain damage percentages to be situational.

You both are pretty cool and have good heads on top of those shoulders. It was fun looking up that sheet again.... I really wish you guys have a chance to play some time and try him out and see what you think.
Well... im going to pass out now <3
I love lucario in brawl and love him in project M :3

Azen was good and started the character off, but the newer pro Lucario's are well past where he was. Not to mention Azensmashing, spamming Fsmash, is bad with Lucario. Lee Martin, Junebug, Trela and others have taken him and imo understand the character far better than Azen did at his prime.

Aura to me is really what defined him as a character, the closer he is to losing the more power he puts out. That was is trademark trait with his transcendent priority, his moveset is built off this and is apparent to what his style is like.

For Double Team, yes it is situations and removing it wouldn't be a huge loss. However people were coming off as if the move was worthless, which is false. People get closed minded about "useless" moves too much and don't see what is can do. Punishing Tornado trying to catch you on landing is a kill move with double team at high %. It will separate Ice Climbers if they try to use blizzard. The uses are limited but they are there. If people think it should be removed or changes, ok, like people said it's situational when to use it and one of his worse moves. I just don't want people thinking that a move is worthless when some people didn't seem to understand what this move can do.

I'm not expecting him to stay the exact same, but core traits are something that I don't think should be changed for any character unless it is warranted for valid reasons. I personally don't see reaons to remove it, but rather to change it in relation to Melee.

I still haven't gotten an opinion on this from you Bad... or anyone...

...and I'll attach this since it clarifies and sounds better...




Lol, I'm pro at getting ignored.
(Re-reposting my thoughts, how desperate. I must not be forward enough with my "opinions" >.>)

Well there is one thing, Aura is a big deal in Brawl, it changes his match-ups. Like the new system seems to require him to charge in a sense, it someways make him slightly vulnerable when he comes out of the stance.

Also would this also promote camping Lucario until his charge goes away?

 

[BAD]

Wario's changes include:

- Forward Smash
- Down Smash
- Dair
- Forward Special

Wow, that's a lot of changes for really no reason. I am not a Wario main, but from what I have played against is that Wario is an aerial based character. His aerial game seems to have been nerfed for the sake of offensive gameplay even though he is a defensive character. That didn't need to happen, along with the SIGNIFICANT changes to his ground game and the fact that his bike is gone for whatever the reason. Those changes were not necessary to balance out Wario in Melee.

Brawl Ganondorf vs Melee Ganondorf changes include:

- Up Smash
- Forward Tilt
- Down Tilt
- Forward Special
- Up Special (to a lesser extent)

Mainly to differentiate Ganon from Falcon. That's it, and they still play the same. Ganon isn't drastically different from his Melee counterpart. He just needs some buff's to be better at Brawl is all. Not a completely new moveset like Wario.

Brawl Falco vs Melee Falco changes include:

- Forward Smash
- Fair
- Up Tilt
- Down Special

I'd be daring enough to state the changes from transitions from 64 to Melee, but I was not an avid 64 player. They exist though. I'm seeing holes in your argument.

To differentiate between Fox from Melee. He can't shine anymore really, that's the only change I see.

Really all your doing is giving me clones from Melee. In Brawl the developers at Smash tried to make the clones somewhat different from the counterparts in Melee. Of course they would have more changes to them and it's not like the changes drastically change the way a character is played except Falco and his shines.

 

[Demon-oni]

I can see where you are coming from, but if i may bring up a few valid points.

You suggested earlier that instead of making 178% your butter zone, we switch it to around 100%. Let's say that happens. From what you and red ryu were stating earlier, your match starts off looking for your jab mindgames/small combo starts. The match eventually progresses to where you are both at around killing percents. True, your aura will most definitely get the kill off of connection, but in order to get that hit, you have to very accurately read the opponent based on how you describe lucario's metagame to land a kill move. Just for the situation, you miss and he gets his kill move off.

Next stock for you, because of the buff to the aura, you can kill him around 140% if you are at 20%. You try to mindgame in your kill move again, but yet again you miss. This is where P:M system changes start working against you. Rather than brawl at 20% where you may end up at 47% then your both away from eachother, he gets a 60% combo. You just got in killing range again. For the same rewards that lucario had in brawl, he has much higher risks in P:M due to the substantial buff in comboing.

I'm not saying that the aura system cannot be worked out for PMBR, but at the moment they would have to change most everything else he had to help him survive with his aura system. It may come back in later changes, but right now due to its complexity, i don't think it is at the top of their priorities...

 

[MonkUnit]

Lucario still has his aura. It just isn't "developed" the same way. Rather than getting your aura by getting the crap beat out of you, you now get aura by charging it with downB(sword dance). You still have the aura, I don't see why people are up in arms over this.

 

[The King Of Hearts]

Lucario still has his aura. It just isn't "developed" the same way. Rather than getting your aura by getting the crap beat out of you, you now get aura by charging it with downB(sword dance). You still have the aura, I don't see why people are up in arms over this.

Pretty zen bro

Good points...

...but I mentioned a compromise for anyone that might miss counter with my counter/sword's dance idea. Charge aura and counter if someone trying to hit you out of it given correct timing.

...and for the people that aren't satisfied with the charge utility as it is... counter that increases aura in place of damage. Instead of having to take damage, anticipate a hit and counter for an aura increase. It's basically just like my other idea, but now you have to get hit for it to work. People who enjoyed teasing out little bits of damage in brawl, but don't want to get set up for a combo in PM might like this one. Plus you don't take damage that could hurt you later, you deal it back at them and increase your aura to boot.
Edit:
*(self-proclaimed) good ideas continue to get ignored* :/

Sounds interesting but the charge is good as is and I think that might take the balance away from it. Though it is really spiffy....

also you reminded me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF5ohrvoPpk

I thought this was pretty interesting... and supposedly its balanced out (vid dosent show the balance but the moves are the same)

 

[BAD]

Lucario still has his aura. It just isn't "developed" the same way. Rather than getting your aura by getting the crap beat out of you, you now get aura by charging it with downB(sword dance). You still have the aura, I don't see why people are up in arms over this.

Fine then. How about we change Link's DownB to a Hammer. Instead of using bombs he can use a hammer which is much more powerful than bombs. Bombs make Link campy and play gay. Having a hammer makes Link more offensive.

 

[MonkUnit]

What? I was only stating that Lucario still has aura, just in a different way. No need to get your undies in a knot.

 

[BAD]

What? I was only stating that Lucario still has aura, just in a different way. No need to get your undies in a knot.

Exactly, why bother changing Lucario's DownB when it's fine as it is. His aura is fine, why does Wario and Lucario have to go through so many changes just to be playable in Melee?

 

[iLink]

The match eventually progresses to where you are both at around killing percents. True, your aura will most definitely get the kill off of connection, but in order to get that hit, you have to very accurately read the opponent based on how you describe lucario's metagame to land a kill move. Just for the situation, you miss and he gets his kill move off.

Next stock for you, because of the buff to the aura, you can kill him around 140% if you are at 20%. You try to mindgame in your kill move again, but yet again you miss. This is where P:M system changes start working against you. Rather than brawl at 20% where you may end up at 47% then your both away from eachother, he gets a 60% combo. You just got in killing range again. For the same rewards that lucario had in brawl, he has much higher risks in P:M due to the substantial buff in comboing.

Like if me and my opponent were like 120% on our first stock and I lost my stock first, it sucked that I was basically forced to get damage on me to be able to KO him while he lived to 160%+. Another example is me having a stock lead while being in the 20-40% range and just hitting my opponent around the stage without any sort of KO power and basically having to wait until I had some damage on me before I could set him up for a KO which is lame because it just puts my stock at risk.

The boost helped in brawl because most KO's come from punishing and reading and there would be breaks between hits. In melee, there are quite a few ways to set up KO's and not being able to do so until your stock is at risk is rather annoying.

Pretty much

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Wario's changes include:

- Forward Smash
- Down Smash
- Dair
- Forward Special

Brawl Ganondorf vs Melee Ganondorf changes include:

- Up Smash
- Forward Tilt
- Down Tilt
- Forward Special
- Up Special (to a lesser extent)

Brawl Falco vs Melee Falco changes include:

- Forward Smash
- Fair
- Up Tilt
- Down Special

I'd be daring enough to state the changes from transitions from 64 to Melee, but I was not an avid 64 player. They exist though. I'm seeing holes in your argument.

Note that the bottom two were also considered the "clone" status and changed to be their own characters.

I can see where you are coming from, but if i may bring up a few valid points.

You suggested earlier that instead of making 178% your butter zone, we switch it to around 100%. Let's say that happens. From what you and red ryu were stating earlier, your match starts off looking for your jab mindgames/small combo starts. The match eventually progresses to where you are both at around killing percents. True, your aura will most definitely get the kill off of connection, but in order to get that hit, you have to very accurately read the opponent based on how you describe lucario's metagame to land a kill move. Just for the situation, you miss and he gets his kill move off.

Next stock for you, because of the buff to the aura, you can kill him around 140% if you are at 20%. You try to mindgame in your kill move again, but yet again you miss. This is where P:M system changes start working against you. Rather than brawl at 20% where you may end up at 47% then your both away from eachother, he gets a 60% combo. You just got in killing range again. For the same rewards that lucario had in brawl, he has much higher risks in P:M due to the substantial buff in comboing.

I'm not saying that the aura system cannot be worked out for PMBR, but at the moment they would have to change most everything else he had to help him survive with his aura system. It may come back in later changes, but right now due to its complexity, i don't think it is at the top of their priorities...

This can also work in Lucario's favor if he kills them first and he does damage to then with his buff. It works both ways which is why the system is balanced.

Still like you said, the system is more complicated so I don't expect it or for people to adopt my idea of keeping the aura system.

But I still will voice my disagreement with that decision.

Lucario still has his aura. It just isn't "developed" the same way. Rather than getting your aura by getting the crap beat out of you, you now get aura by charging it with downB(sword dance). You still have the aura, I don't see why people are up in arms over this.

Because both systems have pros and cons, and I don't see a valid reason to remove the previous one.

 

[MonkUnit]

No one seems to get this, the swords dance system is an EXPERIMENTAL thing we are trying. If anyone has ideas for lucario/aura system, please post/repose them. Lucario is one of those oddballs that are a bit trickier to put in a melée environment.

 

[jahkzheng]

Well there is one thing, Aura is a big deal in Brawl, it changes his match-ups. Like the new system seems to require him to charge in a sense, it someways make him slightly vulnerable when he comes out of the stance.

Also would this also promote camping Lucario until his charge goes away?

I figured his "charge" wouldn't go away until he died... just like in brawl. And requiring 4 or 5 charges for his aura to reach full potential would take time like accumulating damage... especially if we are talking about that counter actually having to be activated to make the charge work - which incidentally doesn't promote camping but a defensive playstyle that revolves around reads.
In the counter activiated case, the move should be fast. In the activated regardless case, it should be slower or at least more punishable. The counter activated style is more in line with brawl as it requires getting "hit" to increase your aura strength. In that respect, I'd believe that if you couldn't keep the brawl aura system, you'd prefer this. Also, if the counter activated aura is going to be fast and beneficial, then maybe its actual counter should be weak but give enough time to not be punished immediately afterwards.

And thanks for responding, lol.

No one seems to get this, the swords dance system is an EXPERIMENTAL thing we are trying. If anyone has ideas for lucario/aura system, please post/repose them. Lucario is one of those oddballs that are a bit trickier to put in a melée environment.

Ha, I've already been conditioned to do that. And I hope my ideas at least get some people thinking.

 

[MonkUnit]

Exactly, why bother changing Lucario's DownB when it's fine as it is. His aura is fine, why does Wario and Lucario have to go through so many changes just to be playable in Melee?

Wario's brawl design (floaty, high air mobility, and defensive) didn't translate very well into a melée environment. We changed his moves so that he is a more offensive/melée-esque character. I am not a designer of the characters, I only design stages for PM, for wario's discussion, I would wait until SHeLL, Jcz, strong bad, Camelot, or one of the others to be here and post about wario's changes.

Edit: I am sure we could still keep double team by making it so that if u hold shield during downB, you do double team instead of sword dance. Not defending either move, just dating it might be possible to have both.

 

[jahkzheng]

Edit: I am sure we could still keep double team by making it so that if u hold shield during downB, you do double team instead of sword dance. Not defending either move, just dating it might be possible to have both.

Why not just make it counter if someone hits you while you're trying to charge your aura. (Assuming this is my aura is activated regardless idea - counter activated aura would require the hit.)

 

[The King Of Hearts]

Azen was good and started the character off, but the newer pro Lucario's are well past where he was. Not to mention Azensmashing, spamming Fsmash, is bad with Lucario. Lee Martin, Junebug, Trela and others have taken him and imo understand the character far better than Azen did at his prime.

Aura to me is really what defined him as a character, the closer he is to losing the more power he puts out. That was is trademark trait with his transcendent priority, his moveset is built off this and is apparent to what his style is like.

For Double Team, yes it is situations and removing it wouldn't be a huge loss. However people were coming off as if the move was worthless, which is false. People get closed minded about "useless" moves too much and don't see what is can do. Punishing Tornado trying to catch you on landing is a kill move with double team at high %. It will separate Ice Climbers if they try to use blizzard. The uses are limited but they are there. If people think it should be removed or changes, ok, like people said it's situational when to use it and one of his worse moves. I just don't want people thinking that a move is worthless when some people didn't seem to understand what this move can do.


Also would this also promote camping Lucario until his charge goes away?

The new Pro Lucarios dont really fancy me though? Like Lee Martin doesn't look like I could fit in to watching. I still feel exhilaration watching most azen vs m2k matches. Ill check out trela in the afternoon due to its almost 6am here.

DT wasn't useless nor wothless and it had it uses bro. I never had a time to use it against ICs blizzard and I know at low percentages it could combo, but I know sometime if placed in the wrong direction that it could lead to an SD. Its a ridged move in situation that I know I wouldn't trust in most circumstances.

Although in relation to jahkzheng idea for his down be being charging and counter. That depending on how much you have stored up and timed right... It could lead to a decent to big aura explosion.
But honestly it almost seems to much to be in a single move to be fair.


Tp the promoting of camping: Nha it depends on the player, but over camping isn't needed. Your aura should be used close up and most likely close up then focused on aura spheres.

 

[MonkUnit]

Jahkz, because I didn't think of that when I posted, besides it is almost 5AM and I still have school at 9:00. I should stop posting for now.

 

[jahkzheng]

Although in relation to jahkzheng idea for his down be being charging and counter. That depending on how much you have stored up and timed right... It could lead to a decent to big aura explosion.
But honestly it almost seems to much to be in a single move to be fair.

The DownB would charge aura in much the same way taking damage does. Multiple - maybe 4 or 5 - uses to reach full potential equivalent to 180%. There would be a counter effect if stuck, and in the counter activated aura idea, only an aura strength increase if struck. Both counters wouldn't necessarily have a big aura explosion from acquiring charges... that can be modified to fit their new functions.

Jahkz, because I didn't think of that when I posted, besides it is almost 5AM and I still have school at 9:00. I should stop posting for now.

Lol, gotta love your avatar man... half the time it speaks for itself.
And yeah, much later for you than for me, but I ought to go to bed too.

 

[kaizo13]

why the **** does everybody think they can come in here and run this thread?!

Red and BAD.....you've made you're point. You've been repeating yourselves for the past 7-8 pages. give it a rest already

 

[The King Of Hearts]

Jahkz, because I didn't think of that when I posted, besides it is almost 5AM and I still have school at 9:00. I should stop posting for now.

I think lucario is going in the right direction.

I like RRs opinions and Ideas and it reminded me of how I first felt. but any girl would tell you that you need to marry a bread winner. Lucario still has his aura system with his new downB and feels like a solid character.

If it could also act as an explosive counter... that would be pretty cool. But lucario feels melee solid and plays pretty lovely.

 

[Demon-oni]

Honestly, i would love double team more if you had more control over where you could appear. I would love to punish jumpers by appearing right above where they hit me. that might be too much work for the devs to come up with those animations though. The only other thing i can think of for that move is to do what Bbrawl did to it and make it unblockable...