Project M Social Thread

[Youngling]

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/apostrophe

All of you need to read this. Seriously.

Haters gonna hate.

 

[Demon-oni]

Idk, i feel they got rid of bike for a multitude of reasons. I can easily see them wanting to nerf Brawl Wario's recovery by some margin. Bike was about the right margin, but was really useless/ultra situational for anything else. Therefore , they just changed his side b.

My main concern is Olimar at this point. While his moveset has some interesting properties, it has so much brawl influence that i can see his gameplay differing greatly from his norm. Not that i would mind that.

 

[Chepe]

Then it doesn't exist.

I should note that in Pichu's trophy it says that he is better suited to handicap matches.

You may INTERPRET this as saying Pichu is an intentionally bad (joke) character, but it is most likely referring to the actual Handicap option setting, which strengthens characters if they are at high percent.

http://forum.starmen.net/forum/Stor...ing-a-comprehensive-list-of-unused-characters

-Pichu (Sakurai says that he wanted a character who was bad on purpose, which is why Pichu was brought in. He also says that he had considered Jigglypuff the joke character of the first game, but now Jigglypuff was seen as more of a serious character because of Pichu’s inclusion. Also of note – one fan suggests that Raichu should have been used for Pikachu’s model swap instead of Pichu. Sakurai says that Pichu did more to differentiate himself, and that he added more by being a joke character.)

And under this passage is a link to Pichu's entry from the official JPN Melee site where this is stated:
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/n01/n64/software/nus_p_nalj/smash/flash/1211/index.html


As for Project M, I may not agree with every single decision of course, but I am confident that the team will give us an amazing product in the end that none of us truly deserves to begin with! I've been following this thread for a long time now, not really posting but silently waiting in great anticipation. I figured I'd now ask a question that's been burning in me for a while now: will 1-Player mode functionality remain? I might be one of the few people who actually enjoys playing the Classic Mode and such from time to time and it really ticked me off that the final codeset of Brawl+ destroyed All-Star Mode and will never be playable on it (this question excludes Event Matches since some will have to be compromised by certain changes).

 

[jahkzheng]

Don't discount people just because they like brawl lol. I admittedly like the whole series in general, but I also admit that I miss many Melee things... just not all of them. I know the main target crowd is the diehard Melee players, but don't let their sometimes blind devotion to one smash and hate for the other possibly polarize the game. I think the opinion of anyone that enjoys any smash and could possibly play this game competitively or for fun should be considered.

I'll re-repost this, lol, since it seems to have been largely ignored. I get the feeling that this is kinda what Red and the others that are getting discredited are trying to voice... maybe...

Hmm.... as interesting as those stages are, I think there ought to be more character representation in the PM stage hacks...

I'm not going to go over all the characters and they're level of stage representation, but I know I've mentioned Ganon needing a Ganon-esque stage. There are other game series that only have one stage for multiple characters or a stage that doesn't really seem to suit a character aesthetically. Ideally, imo, there would be a stage suited for every character... but that's prone to heavy interpretation as to what constitutes "suitable" and it would somewhat detract from the largely more important task of stage balancing.


(Speaking of balance... and now to go off on this tangent, xD)
As an aside, I just want to remind people that not every stage has to be neutral or even a clear counterpick... obviously, most of them should be however. People want balance and fairness to be sure, but I notice a trend among those that put an especially strong emphasis on this in regards to characters, stages, or anything really... and that's a tendancy towards "sameness" or a lack of variety. Just as an example that has been expressed before... As much as I think having all the characters "meleefied" is an awesome thing, I also worry about characters falling back or even newly into "clonedom". I see the same thing happen when people try to neutralize stages - a lot of times I can see the stage slowly becoming Battlefield as people explain where platforms should be to balance the stage, lol. Making stuff more similar allows balance to be achieved easier, granted, but I hope there is also special attention paid to keeping things various. Just some observations.

At the very least, that's my concern. I know for a fact that I want to play this game regardless... that's not in question. Like I said, I just love smash in general and I doubt this will be an exception... in fact I hope to like this more than either Melee or Brawl. I do doubt however that I'll be able to play competitively so that's not as big a deal to me. In Melee I learned to wavedash and l-cancel, then went to play friends that I could beat without using these techs... so they became showoff gimicks lol. Don't think that mindset will change unfortunately since I do most of my playing offline :/. I'll do my best to develop an offline game with those people who will play with me on fsmash.org.

So there's my concerns and a view of why I might have them. Guess I'm not your typical diehard Melee fan, but I'm a smash fan that wants to love this excellent looking mod. Let it be known that I'm liking 80 to 90% of what I see.

Whew... another long post.

 

[The King Of Hearts]

Wario bike wouldn't be melee compliant!
Olimar is mah hero! How will he fuse into the melee world!

Giant bike is fun. Giant bike isnt on shadow....Shadow skates faster then Giant bike. Giant bike useless...my logic was flawlessly flawed.
I think there should be a mod that allows all chars on motorcycles <3
but in this game... the bike didnt fit although wario has his scary side B... that thing is fearsome XD

With olimar I think it would be cool if they gave him a mix of solimar on thier brawl - vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imvizDtkw8k

Its from brawl- and if tweaked. It could help olimar in a bind when he cant summon the little guys.

More Pichu nonsense!

The **** u doin son! We were hiding it from him until Christmastime!!!!

 

[FrozenHobo]

 

[Grim Tuesday]

http://forum.starmen.net/forum/Stor...ing-a-comprehensive-list-of-unused-characters

-Pichu (Sakurai says that he wanted a character who was bad on purpose, which is why Pichu was brought in. He also says that he had considered Jigglypuff the joke character of the first game, but now Jigglypuff was seen as more of a serious character because of Pichu’s inclusion. Also of note – one fan suggests that Raichu should have been used for Pikachu’s model swap instead of Pichu. Sakurai says that Pichu did more to differentiate himself, and that he added more by being a joke character.)

And under this passage is a link to Pichu's entry from the official JPN Melee site where this is stated:
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/n01/n64/software/nus_p_nalj/smash/flash/1211/index.html

Oh.

Nevermind me then.

 

[Ulevo]

I haven't read through the past ten or so pages, but I really don't need to to understand the underlying sentiment that's been lingering here. That said, I only have one thing to say:

If you want to know the difference between Project: M and Brawl+, it's that when Project: M is finally finished, you'll all be thanking the developers greatly for all their hard work, despite all the griping you may have now about development decisions. If for some reason you fall in to the minority that won't fit this description, there is a simple solution. Don't click the download button.

Respect.

To reiterate why I posted this... Despite how hyped I was walking in to this thread for the first time and seeing the mission statement and opening post, I had severe doubts. I knew what went down in the early stages of the Brawl+ development, and how it was politically geared and went down the gutter. I had concerns as to whether or not the development team could not only avoid the hurdles the Brawl+ BR members had, but also if they could come together to create what they had envisioned for us.

The reason why I don't have doubts anymore is because for wherever I had doubts, Shanus and the other developers effectively proved me wrong. When I'd hear about Wario being given a new forward smash and forward special, I'd say to myself "why the heck did they do that? His moves were fine? I don't think he'll play very well now." This goes double for their changes to Zelda, and Meta Knight, and Bowser, among others as well. On paper, I would ponder as to whether or not these changes were necessary. Sure enough, a single YouTube clip of a credible player using said character was all it took to change my opinion.

In short, I don't need to give much input or politically debate much in this thread because I really don't feel I have to. Shanus and everyone else is doing an awesome job as it is. They're not perfect, but they're doing a great job, and they correct the mistakes they make. While I think my input could be useful, I know that despite any questioning I may have in the now, Project: M will be proven worthy down the road.

What matters is the result, ultimately. And I'm not seeing the same mistakes being repeated from the Brawl+ era. I'm seeing progress, and lots of it. I think some posters here should have a lot more faith in the developers.

 

[Vigilante]

One character that seemed innapropriate for Brawl was Wario. His changes were obviously because he would have not felt right. I'm more thinking along the lines of the motorcycle. It can become an item and be thrown... and it would become fairly gimmicky and useless in battle. THis is probably why the Tackle was added.

And for the way to get the game, you will probably be able to get it at the Smash mods website on the first page or even Homebrew channel Browser.

 

[Chepe]

The **** u doin son! We were hiding it from him until Christmastime!!!!

Eh? All I did was prove that Pichu was, in fact, a joke character in Melee. EternalYoshi couldn't find an article so I did. Does not compute.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Thunderhorse said that it was going to be available at your local gamestop

Except that was Bandit/Waffle, not me . But if you want to think it's me, go right ahead.

Anyway, I have a mountain to say on this subject, but it seems we already have enough mountains that we could make a mountain range the length of the Rockies with our opinions.

So I just won't say it .

PS. it's not as negative as many of you are initially thinking. In fact it has very little negativity.

 

[Unlimited]

Can I get a game and watch changelog? Can you still attack after you up-b?

 

[Thunderhorse+]

No, because Game and Watch, like every other character, is still a work in progress, and thus is still subject to potentially endless changes. A changelist now could mean nothing in a few weeks.[/BR]

But as of right now, he can currently attack out of his up B.

 

[The King Of Hearts]

Eh? All I did was prove that Pichu was, in fact, a joke character in Melee. EternalYoshi couldn't find an article so I did. Does not compute.

Yes and you did it beautifully <3

Except that was Bandit/Waffle, not me . But if you want to think it's me, go right ahead.

Anyway, I have a mountain to say on this subject, but it seems we already have enough mountains that we could make a mountain range the length of the Rockies with our opinions.

So I just won't say it .

XD nice! Ill remember that next time.
Was it about sonic should keep his aerial dodge after upB ;D

 

[Chepe]

Yes and you did it beautifully <3

Ah, why thank you! For a second I thought that maybe there was some devious plot to make "Pichu is a joke character in Melee " a big announcement or news piece from the team.

I have another question, about a character this time. Will Yoshi be able to choose when to DJC ala Brawl+ or will it be automatic like in Melee? As a Yoshi main, I found the flexibility of choosing whether to rise or fall with an aerial a great help for comboing and switching things up.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

First - I know you are an avid brawl supporter, so I doubt you would enjoy this transition to begin with. But to comment on lucario:

Regarding hitbox disjoints, I believe most were unaltered, just animations were slightly tweaked to look more forceful.

Lucario's aura system is still being evaluated, as we aren't really pleased yet with how its structured. It's too complicated with consuming aura charges and doesn't interplay exactly how we hoped.

Regarding aura - We had a lot of fun ideas on how to make lucario a deeper character with some technical components to add to his gameplay. Counter was something which we had capabilities to edit, but felt we could find a way to still play with his "lore" a bit with offering the ability to power up his damage and power in a controlled way (aura stock is an example of bad game mechanics).

We had some fun ideas in mind. For example:

Combo's greater than 3 hits build chargers. Each time you build a charge, you can consume it with down+B to power up your next several attacks (or a permanent damage buff per stock). Obviously a lot of these are out there ideas, but the purpose is two fold:

Lucario metagame is unfortunately spammy and campy. I was hoping to introduce an offensive reward system where pressuring a player will reward a lucario more than a campy one.

These are several ideas we had in mind - but characters evolve a lot over time and nothing is set in stone. Lucario especially.


However, I want to bring up an important point:
Red Ryu, BAD, Stingers et. al. You guys are avid brawl supporters, and (in most cases) not melee players. This game is meant to be melee based, and a simple lucario, wario, ROB, etc, do not play well without changes. We want to keep the feel of a character, but some changes are always required. Look at snake as an example. He is a championed character we spent a lot of time refining, but felt pushback at the start as well. I'm not going to say your going to love the game, but to be honest, I doubt you would anyway. I appreciate you voicing criticism, but in many ways, you aren't our target customer base. If you look at how responsive most melee players are to our characters, our mechanics, and our goal, they are excited for this project. If you cannot accept that characters are going to get changed, I kindly ask you to stop posting in this thread. Instead, if you do accept characters will be changed, I welcome hearing your ideas on how you think the character should be changed.

First off despite my mediocre placings I play both games. Bad Santa M.A.S. and I support both.

Second you saying what his meta and play style is showing people don't understand the character. He plays a passive aggressive style in Brawl because more often than not, he gets camped by other characters and has to approach them, BAS camping is bad. As I said he is a read, reaction and spacing based character. He has the tools to punish, the rewards he gets off a reads are great, and he has the spacing tools to get in or make them keep out if need be.

Third Aura has a skill in remember when stuff works and when it doesn't. Despite fair's low knock back and cool down at high aura is stops being a combo into Fair, Nair or Dair. Dash attack to Utilt won't work later, same with Uthow to Utilt. Forceplam to Grab works at Low %. His Uthrow CG on Fox, Wolf, Captain Falcon and Ganoindorf goes to 38%, plus 10% Dthrow after the CG, but only if he is under 40%, if he has later he has to stop at 25% and Dthrow. After 140% or so he can't even CG them. Aura Sphere also starts to beat out somethings with aura, after 42% it eats Peach's Turnips, around 80% or 100% Marth can't Fair out Aura sphere, Metaknight's Tornado will lose to BAS when it starts doing 8% per sphere. The skill was remembering when they worked and when they didn't, because if you didn't you would whiff a move or used something that doesn't have the priority yet you would get punished. It is no way a skilless or bad mechanic, it defiantly benefits him more than his opponent but he does suffer in cases where he can't do enough damage or if he dies first and he needs to make some of it up.

I know you guys had Lee Martin play this in which he used Lucario a bit at some point, but I don't think people actually knew much about the character.

For the most part, we don't want Brawl characters to play like they do in Brawl. We may like some (or many) aspects of them, but if they play like their Brawl selves, what's the point?

Moveset and game play consistency, even with the transistion from Smash 64 to Melee or Melee to Brawl they didn't completely change what a character was about. While styles may have changed, basic traits and things the character did weren't changed to be a completely different character.

Moves may have changed to make the character play different in some cases, but they weren't overall or even removal of traits like his aura.

The goal has been constant. Just because you didn't recognize it doesn't mean it wasn't there.

I'm going to recognize what people said and use the rules on the OP.

What is the goal of Project M?
Project M hopes to achieve a game similar to Super Smash Bros. Melee in many respects. It does not, however, intend to be a 1:1 Melee clone. The following is a list of the main aspects of Super Smash Bros. Melee that inspired and have carried over into Project M:
1) A fast-paced game
2) with flowing, organic movement
3) where the player has a great degree of control over his character due to the technical skill that he's achieved.
4) The balance of offense and defense changes depending on the exact matchup and playstyle, but overall tends to favor offense slightly.
5) Offstage edgeguarding is risky but rewarding, while on-stage edgeguarding is safer but less rewarding due to ledge techs.
6) Recoveries generally require great skill to use, with the advantage usually being with the edgeguarding player, with some exceptions.
7) The combos are challenging and spontaneous, with anything longer than 2-3 hits requiring a knowledge of both characters' options and some degree of prediction and/or a deep understanding of the mental aspect of the game.

In short, Project M aims to capture the essence of what made Melee a truly great game in our eyes.

I'm not seeing why overhauling Lucario or the other Brawl characters is needed to fit these. Sonic like people have been saying may be too good, nerf his moveset/hotboxes, you don't need to re wight him by lets say making him not the fastest in the game with running speed or spin dashes.

Basically a lot of extra arbitrary changes that aren't needed nor warranted in many cases.

Its the camping centric style to his play. Aura promotes camping as he gets stronger. We want to promote offense, not running away. Its that flavor that reeks of brawl, and its something we successfully transformed snake off of.:

Your goals set state that you want the game to balance offense and defense, with aggro being a little stronger. Lucario was never super aggro or defensive, he plays passively aggressive. Even then what is wrong with a character that has some defensive traits?

Hey I mained lucario in brawl and I know how you felt just by watching the videos, but I have to say that after playing a few rounds with him that he is really enjoyable. I was pretty confused and skeptical about why lucario was changed quite a bit.

What they've done with lucario broadened him into a wider spectrum. Before we had to rely on his weak combos and slow movement of attacks then change up our style when we did have an aura power up. Now hes a pretty powerful guy who is pretty fast to. The guy in the vid is a bit sub par but anyone with a bit of time would be able to wield this lucario intelligently.

Lucario dosent have an aura range on a few of his attacks but they gave him more dependable power to compensate on those losses. Even his downB is more dependable now, The counter was awkward and slow and tournament wise it would almost be useless to use against a high tier, but down B is very responsive.
It can be canceled, it could float you in air for a bit, it can be mindgamed with taunt or having it on with flames covering you. It powers up you smash attacks and also looks epic when its combined with a forcepalm grab.

the only concern really is his Up B. With auto ledge snap gone its really hard to use due to lucario will either wall cling or bounce. After a few rounds I got used to it and figured a way past it. You dont have to be to cautious with it because of its good hitbox so you could just UpB to the stage or above the ledge or wall cling and then jump and airal dodge back.

What im saying is he isnt held back by his old aura attributes but is now dependable with a wider range of posibilities. He can be used intelligently and technically and still feels like a lucario. Its something you should try out and suggest that you find some info on what smashfest or tournament PM is being held and play a few friendlies.


Remember lucario is bound to change sometime once landing detection is found.
I know I was one of those guys who wasn't happy with brawl + but PM vastly different and satisfying. I hoped this helped you out.

Remember one thing though, you are the wielder of the character your controlling and nothing else can change that while you hold the controller

Aura was only a larger problem in certain match-ups. In Brawl against Snake, King DDD, and DK. DK could be handled because he can't land well and is juggle bait. Snake and DDD would still beat him even without Aura, but it hurt and helps in these match-ups since he can also kill them earlier than most characters could.

Outside of that he beat a lot of character because they could handle him at low % and had more trouble with him at high%.

If they want to change moves a bit to fit the more aggressive style, I would be fine, but they went far beyond what I think they needed to go.

Red Ryu, just because you don't like your vBrawl main in the new game, doesn't mean you can't play it. I mean, I don't have to play Lucas in P:M. Based on the whole entirely new hitstun engine, he plays a lot differently. Lucas just feels even more amazing to me than he did in vBrawl. Lucas was pretty bad in Brawl b/c he didn't really work well. But with a new Z-air, Double Jump Cancel, and new stuff, he just works so well. But if the new Lucario doesn't float your boat, there's other characters. I find Yoshi to be really fun in P:M right now even though I hate Brawl Yoshi. You'll probably find a character you'll like to play.

I have an issue with this when is extents to more than just Lucario, it's the same problem I has with Brawl+ where they were changing things on a whim without either.

1.) Truly understanding them.
2.) Ignoring set goals.
3.) Forcing entire revisions on characters, on some issues not even needed.

I mean, Fox mains in Melee get Fox again, same with Falco, Sheik, Ganon, Falcon, etc. Brawl exclusive characters are remade in many cases from the ground up so they are alien to what they were, little similarities.

I don't think excluding Brawl players at all is the right thing to do, trying to do such is really just limiting the audience that will like this game. Trying to cater and limit your audience only hurts it.

 

[stingers]

Sadly Red Ryu, they can and will ignore most of what you said =/ This IS catered to melee players, and they ARE catering it towards "speed fun activate" gameplay. Oh well =[

 

[BAD]

Red Ryu makes a lot of sense when you think about how the characters from 64 to Brawl still had their same movesets. It's not like the developers of the team said:

"Were making a new engine for Melee, I guess it's time to re-work all the Smash 64 characters and give them new movesets."

Let's look at Jigglypuff for instance. She is a monster in 64 and in Melee. Both very offensive games, yet she is primarily a defensive character. In Brawl she sucks. But there are ways to make her better in Brawl than just changing her moveset. Her move Rest got nerfed severely and her aerials are not as good as they were in Melee. This could EASILY be fixed in Brawl without changing her drastically.

Same thing for P:M. But I guess we will just have to wait until the product comes out to see if it's good.

 

[Vigilante]

Well, it is geared toward the Melee gamer, but don't let it stop you form trying it. Maybe you'll be surprised.

And from what I,ve seen so far, the balance seems a lttle better than Melee (and much more than Brawl).

 

[Ulevo]

Sadly Red Ryu, they can and will ignore most of what you said =/ This IS catered to melee players, and they ARE catering it towards "speed fun activate" gameplay. Oh well =[

Can I call this Melee 2.0?
Yes.

Hm.

Red Ryu makes a lot of sense when you think about how the characters from 64 to Brawl still had their same movesets. It's not like the developers of the team said:

"Were making a new engine for Melee, I guess it's time to re-work all the Smash 64 characters and give them new movesets."

Let's look at Jigglypuff for instance. She is a monster in 64 and in Melee. Both very offensive games, yet she is primarily a defensive character. In Brawl she sucks. But there are ways to make her better in Brawl than just changing her moveset. Her move Rest got nerfed severely and her aerials are not as good as they were in Melee. This could EASILY be fixed in Brawl without changing her drastically.

Same thing for P:M. But I guess we will just have to wait until the product comes out to see if it's good.

Who's been overhauled? I mean, really overhauled.

Brawl characters.

What games did the Smash team really get right? Lets see. Smash 64. Melee.

What game did they screw up on?

Brawl.

I think I see a pattern here.

EDIT: Also I'd like to note that the Smash team had NO problems changing veterans character movesets. Or did you forget that Marth lost his Shield Breaker, Ganon lost his Garudo Punch, forward tilt, down tilt, Falco lost his reflector, forward air, up tilt, Bowser lost his Melee claw, et cetera.

 

[BAD]

Hm.




Who's been overhauled? I mean, really overhauled.

Brawl characters.

What games did the Smash team really get right? Lets see. Smash 64. Melee.

What game did they screw up on?

Brawl.

I think I see a pattern here.

Brawl is the best selling smash game of all 3. How did they screw up? I know this project is biased for Melee players, so of course the Brawl characters are going to get butchered.

 

[Vigilante]

Sales don't mean quality. The game is very poor competitively and became a party game rather than a fighting game with party game elements. The game is of lower depth, which was even admitted by Sakurai himself, but it sold more for several reasons:

1) More people have Wiis than people had Gamecubes.
2) It is easier, more suited for non-hardcore gamers.
3) Non-hardcore gamers are the prime target market of the Wii.

And who said they were butchered? Wario looks very good.

 

[genkaku]

It's probably about time we all go to bed.
and maybe not bring this up in the morning.
thanks

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Brawl is the best selling smash game of all 3. How did they screw up? I know this project is biased for Melee players, so of course the Brawl characters are going to get butchered.

Brawl is only the best selling Smash game because of the success of the Wii, and the hype that was built up for Brawl after how amazing the previous two games (especially Melee) were.

They screwed up by completely and intentionally alienating the competitive following of the game.

The Subspace Emissary is a VERY bland and VERY repetitive story mode, the items devolved less from fun things that add to the combat, and more to ridiculous one hit KO items, the online play is horrendous, and the game-play is overly defensive and slow.

 

[Ulevo]

Brawl is the best selling smash game of all 3. How did they screw up? I know this project is biased for Melee players, so of course the Brawl characters are going to get butchered.

Why are you here? I mean, really. I can't believe I just read that.

Both in programming and in character balance and engine design, Brawl was the worst of the three iterations by far. If you want to compare sales, you should look at the ratio of Melee owners to Gamecube owners, and then compare that to Brawl owners to Wii owners, and see statistically which is more successful in terms of averages.

But of course, statistics are a good way to lie about things. And this isn't about money. This is about creating a new iteration of Smash; the game we all had hoped for when we lined up in March of 08 at our local EB Games/Gamestop locations to get first in line to buy the game.

 

[Demon-oni]

Ulevo, saying Brawl is a screw up is going a little far. It is not really geared toward the competitive gamer, but was not a failure as a game. In fact, because of its success, more people are in the smash scene than ever, despite not all of them knowledgable.

However, you do raise a good point. Characters have had these kinds of changes to their movesets before. While some of them aren't necessarily good (Brawl Falco down b), others where successful (Ganon side b, kirby aerial side b). I'm quite confident the dev's behind this project will extensively test their new moves, and if they don't work out, they will find something that will without doing unnecessary change.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Sales do not equate to quality.

Pac-Man for the Atari 2600/VCS sold very well in comparison to other 2600 games.
Still a porting disaster.
Just look at it.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Red Ryu makes a lot of sense when you think about how the characters from 64 to Brawl still had their same movesets. It's not like the developers of the team said:

"Were making a new engine for Melee, I guess it's time to re-work all the Smash 64 characters and give them new movesets."

Let's look at Jigglypuff for instance. She is a monster in 64 and in Melee. Both very offensive games, yet she is primarily a defensive character. In Brawl she sucks. But there are ways to make her better in Brawl than just changing her moveset. Her move Rest got nerfed severely and her aerials are not as good as they were in Melee. This could EASILY be fixed in Brawl without changing her drastically.

Same thing for P:M. But I guess we will just have to wait until the product comes out to see if it's good.

You got my point

Sadly Red Ryu, they can and will ignore most of what you said =/ This IS catered to melee players, and they ARE catering it towards "speed fun activate" gameplay. Oh well =[

See the issue I have with most of these issues is that people think Melee is some super fast tech heavy aggro game. That is far from true, it has a lot of defensive elements, Armada vs Hungrybox lasted 6-7 minutes each game, Pink Shinobi timed out players on Kongo Jungle.

If they want to recreate melee they need to have some defensive elements in it.

Hm.




Who's been overhauled? I mean, really overhauled.

Brawl characters.

What games did the Smash team really get right? Lets see. Smash 64. Melee.

What game did they screw up on?

Brawl.

I think I see a pattern here.

EDIT: Also I'd like to note that the Smash team had NO problems changing veterans character movesets. Or did you forget that Marth lost his Shield Breaker, Ganon lost his Garudo Punch, forward tilt, down tilt, Falco lost his reflector, forward air, up tilt, Bowser lost his Melee claw, et cetera.

Playing the "Brawl sucks" card I see.

Oh and saying Smash 64 and Melee were the only ones done right, good joke.

Also I addressed your edit if you even bothered to read my post.

Why are you here? I mean, really. I can't believe I just read that.

Both in programming and in character balance and engine design, Brawl was the worst of the three iterations by far. If you want to compare sales, you should look at the ratio of Melee owners to Gamecube owners, and then compare that to Brawl owners to Wii owners, and see statistically which is more successful in terms of averages.

But of course, statistics are a good way to lie about things. And this isn't about money. This is about creating a new iteration of Smash; the game we all had hoped for when we lined up in March of 08 at our local EB Games/Gamestop locations to get first in line to buy the game.

The wii selling more says nothing of how sales worked with the games respectfully.

Although I agree that selling more =/= better, case in point.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Hm.




Who's been overhauled? I mean, really overhauled.

Brawl characters.

What games did the Smash team really get right? Lets see. Smash 64. Melee.

What game did they screw up on?

Brawl.

I think I see a pattern here.

All I think I see is a strawman. And a very bad one at that.

The extent of how bad Brawl screwed up extends to much more of concious decisions to make the gameplay bland and boring rather than "they changed it now it sucks". Specifically, Bowser and Ganon would still be bad in Brawl if they retained their Melee moves that were changed in Brawl (really, how is Ganon's Gerudo Dragon - a combo move - going to help Ganon in Brawl - a game with very little combos? The choke is very much an improvement in the Brawl engine where tech chasing yields much more reward than trying to combo), and Falco and Marth work very well in Brawl with their tweaked movesets.

The problem is that Brawl simply has a boring core that emphasizes way too heavily on slow, defensive gameplay.

 

[Ulevo]

Ulevo, saying Brawl is a screw up is going a little far. It is not really geared toward the competitive gamer, but was not a failure as a game. In fact, because of its success, more people are in the smash scene than ever, despite not all of them knowledgable.

To be fair, I was mostly generalizing. I don't think Brawl is a horrible game even if I believe it is inferior to the other two iterations. But I don't need to really go in to deep explanation about the mistakes they made in Brawl to really make it become apparent to anyone even for a casually geared game that the dev team did quite a few things wrong by comparison to their two previous games.

Playing the "Brawl sucks" card I see.

Oh and saying Smash 64 and Melee were the only ones done right, good joke.

Also I addressed your edit if you even bothered to read my post.

I'm not going to turn this in to a needless Brawl vs Melee debate. I feel that the development team made a lot of mistakes regarding Brawls creation, regardless on how I feel about Brawl as a game personally. That's really where I stand on the issue.

In either case, while my etiquette may have been sloppy in explaining my point, it was merely this; Project: M seeks to recreate a Melee environment with Melee designed characters. Brawl exclusive characters were designed to fit the Brawl environment, which (regardless if it is good or bad) is what the Project: M dev team is aiming to stray away from. It's not a coincidence that most, if not all the characters that have received the biggest changes have been newcomers.

I think this should also address Thunderhorse+'s reply. My comments were a little more straightforward than I think they were interpreted.

The wii selling more says nothing of how sales worked with the games respectfully.

Sure it does.

The Wii sold boatloads more than the Gamecube did, yet the Gamecube owner averages out to own more copies of Melee than Wii owners do for Brawl. You can attribute Brawl's sale success to the fact that the Wii is limited in its variety of games within that genre, as well as the fact that the Wii targets a significantly larger audience, so Brawl will have more exposure. Coupled with the fact that Brawls release was anxiously anticipated due to Melees success and you have a recipe for an economically superior product.

 

[BAD]

Brawl is a great game and can be played on a highly competitive level just not as technical as Melee. I think people's bias against Brawl is only going to hurt P:M in the end. Melee had a good synergy with both offensive and defensive playstyles. For you developers to favor only the offensive playstyles and neglect even passive-aggressive playstyles like Lucario to the point of changing him into a completely different character I think is a bit much.

But whatever, I'm not the one who can playtest or try to develop this. But just from looking at how the Smash team made N64 through Brawl, I know you guys don't HAVE to alter the Brawl characters completely into something else.

 

[Demon-oni]

That i will give to you. While there is not really one bad way to play a game in terms of offense or defense so long as there's balance to the two, if the engine causes the game to be slow gameplay wise it soon becomes no different than playing online checkers. That was the point of this project though, to make a faster paced smooth engine to make brawl competitive and fun. What better way than to use an engine we already know works?

 

[Ulevo]

Brawl is a great game and can be played on a highly competitive level just not as technical as Melee. I think people's bias against Brawl is only going to hurt P:M in the end. Melee had a good synergy with both offensive and defensive playstyles. For you developers to favor only the offensive playstyles and neglect even passive-aggressive playstyles like Lucario to the point of changing him into a completely different character I think is a bit much.

I really don't feel that is their aim. If you need any clarification for this, look at P:M Bowser, and Snake.

 

[Demon-oni]

@ BAD

I believe in the opening statement they said they will have a balance of offensive and defensive play, with slight advantage to offensive. That was how it was in melee.

With lucario, i don't find that they have made as many changes as you claim. They got rid of his counter (which, admittedly, was near useless at high levels of gameplay) to introduce a power up system that in turn is acting in place of his aura. While even if this change does stay, does it sound like you will have to alter the way you've been playing lucario? You just have to press down b when you want to enter kill state rather than waiting till you have hit 60%. And while i may not know all of his slight hitbox changes, i believe every character, even melee vets, are getting small changes like these.

And then you have to remember that all changes may not be permanent. Anything is liable to change in this project. Again, i may not know a lot about lucario, but i'm sure the dev's are trying to keep as much variety as possible when doing balance changes.

 

[jahkzheng]

I'm liking the well thought out and civil manner in which Demon is discussing the game with people that have unconventional opinions for this thread. There's never need for hate, lol.

 

[Sora-kun]

Brawl's a great game from a casual standpoint imo. I loved it before i got competitive.

It's like a multi layered cake;
top layer is the frosting (casual play)
next layer is chololate (idfk figure it out)
and the bottom layers (competitive play) is deep fried puke.

Keep licking the frosting and it's fine. Try getting into the depth and it turns bad.
So sad.
Just my opinion though.

EDIT: Btw that goddamn Melee Link PSA that someone posted like 40 pages back..
he doesn't have melee spin or his melee Nair hitbox..

I was sad..
The rapid jab kept me entertained for a few minutes tho =3

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

People don't realize what Double Team did in some situations, more people who don't look at what it does.

Ice climbers Blizzard? Hits them and separates them.
Metaknight Tornados? Use Double Team and get a free kill at high %
Pikachu under Thunder? Counter and kill.
Olimar have some Pikmen on you? Double team when it hits you.
Some characters even have moves you can Double Team on reaction and hit them, or even use it as an escape option.

People who are saying it is useless aren't thinking out of the box.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I can't even think of any notable changes we made to Lucario 0_o.

Let's see there's...the percentage aura and aura stock being removed.
A few Gfx (nothing to do with hitbox sizes)
Swords Dance down B instead of counter (which didn't work and would be a pain to make work).
Up B having a hitbox.
Throws (everybody's throws got reworked).


What exactly makes him...not Lucario? Heck LINK had more changes than that and nobody's complaining about him.

 

[Vigilante]

Let's just keep the Brawl VS Melee debate for another topic, shall we? We're just hindering their progress by giving them needless stuff to read.

Yes, some of you like Brawl. I don't understand it. YOu probably feel the same about our views. But the relevant talk is about the contents of the mod.

 

[Krautrock]

See the issue I have with most of these issues is that people think Melee is some super fast tech heavy aggro game. That is far from true, it has a lot of defensive elements, Armada vs Hungrybox lasted 6-7 minutes each game, Pink Shinobi timed out players on Kongo Jungle.

Exceptions that prove the rule. I mean obviously Melee has some defensive elements, but you cited examples that are very much contrary to what most Melee gameplay is about.

I'd also like to address the claim that character changes between Smash games have been fairly minimal, and P:M is somehow in the wrong for changing characters more substantially:

1. Moveset changes to characters in P:M are in no way outside the bounds established by previous games. Consider, for example, the changes to Falco's moveset from Melee to Brawl. I think it's obvious that he was changed substantially - the adjustments to Lucario's moveset in P:M (thus far) are dwarfed in comparison. Seriously, what is so radically changed about Lucario other than his aura? That's a single move. Shanus has already explained that his disjoint has been mostly retained - what you're seeing are only animation changes.

2. The majority of moveset changes so far are not nearly as radical as you and others are making them out to be. With the exception of Wario and the returning Melee top tiers, most characters have only seen a couple outright move replacements - most existing moves have merely been tweaked or had their animations altered, not scrapped altogether. Even if the "tweaks" precipitate an adjustment in character playstyle (see: Snake), changing moves in this way has occured between every successive smash game. No big deal.

3. I stand by my first two points, but... Why does anyone assume the precedent in character design established in Brawl has any reason to stay? Not that I'm arguing for scrapping every Brawl design, but you must realize this game is not intended to have many similarities with Brawl. The majority of the game engine is being changed - why do people think that characters are somehow exempt from that? The Brawl designs are in no way "canon"; they were merely one interpretation of the characters. This is a new game, and it is thus fine to come up with new interpretations.

Basically, the problem as I see it is that Brawl players want their mains to stay similar to how they were in Brawl. They should instead treat this as a new game - not a mere adjustment of Brawl - and find a character that works for them.

(Also I just want to note that I'm responding in a civil manner to your post, not calling you a troll, you're entitled to your own opinions, all respect, etc.)